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Full Version: HBO:Judah vs Matthysse@ 11:15 ET 10:15CT, 7:15 PMPT (SPOILERS 15 Mins Later)
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Nay_Sayer
Thoughts?
JLUVBABY
my problem with this fight is i dont know much about Matthysse... looking at his record he seems to have a good punch with his ko ratio... his biggest win seems to be over vivian harris who my 11 yr old daughter knocked out last year in a sparring session... lol... that being said... this fight will tell a lot about matt... he will either come out of this fight looking like one of boxings hottest prospects or judah will not get the credit for beating an unknown quantity... this may be a dangerous fight for judah tho just judging by matts. ko ratio... you dont knock out that many guys if you dont have legit power even if most are bums...
Snoop
Sounds like Judah is given yet another shot at the big networks with an easy set-up win against a relative unknown, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lost. laugh.gif
PR316
I got Zab on a decision.

Matthyse is a tough guy if nothing else and Zab will just be content to outspeed him and win a boring decision.
sweetscientist1
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 3 2010, 01:09 PM) *
Sounds like Judah is given yet another shot at the big networks with an easy set-up win against a relative unknown, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lost. laugh.gif

BINGO!!!!!!!!!! Zab Judah is a talented boxing lie. He's never fought under any real adversity and won in his entire boxing life. Just goes to show you that a fighter can look incredible as an amateur(which zab did) and be the complete polar opposite as a pro. Here lies this boys dilemma. Never comes to fight when it matters. Like the fight with Tszyu. He whoops Tszyu's ass the 1st round than gets Knocked the Fuck Out! This is a focus problem. Maybe the boy is ADD I dunno. But Zab is the biggest boxing disappointment in the sport along with Ike Ibeabuchi!
Hittman25
Matthysse seems to me to be the tuff 140 pound punching beast that Argentina is making these dayz.....zab judah chin is a weird one but i bet matthysse tags that sucker and drops by the 4th or 5th.....but i will say if zab is ready and prepared i think his counter punching could cause problems but if hes not taking this with sum type of caution he will get koed
EpTXCHAMP
[quote name='JLUVBABY' date='Nov 3 2010, 09:33 AM' post='503026']
my problem with this fight is i dont know much about Matthysse...

Same here that K.o ratio can be misleading as the talent in Argentina is not up to par compared to the U.S even Matthysse said this.

I saw zab spar last friday against two quick guys and he worked purly on defense. He didnt seem to gas out the tenth rd I paid close attention to his punch output as we know zab's stamina is far from elite. I spoke to him after and he said he is expecting some wild punches and open opportunities and mentioned this camp has focused mainly on Defense and condiioning so looks like they know Mattysse can crack but thats about it. Also Some site mentioned Mattysse weighed 143 after a hard workout on monday wearing a sauna suit dropping 3 lbs with less than a wk to go aint a plus.

Toss up fight had to bet go with zab off experience
1zz
Zab will get sparkkked here.

The pasture is calling and he's overdue!
KookedKrack
As a fan of Judah i have now put myself and others in "battered wife" status. We keep expecting him to change but in the end we have to keep making up excuses for our bruises/scars. black eye.gif
KookedKrack
QUOTE (KookedKrack @ Nov 6 2010, 03:31 PM) *
As a fan of Judah i have now put myself and others in "battered wife" status. We keep expecting him to change but in the end we have to keep making up excuses for our bruises/scars. black eye.gif



I fell down the stairs black eye.gif
gravytrain
QUOTE (KookedKrack @ Nov 7 2010, 12:05 AM) *
I fell down the stairs black eye.gif


Zab didn't push you down stairs tonight, he kicked you out of a plane with no parachute.
BigG
I only caught the fight round 8 on and Zab won 2 out of those rounds (8 and 12) but once again he faded and even got knocked down.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (BigG @ Nov 6 2010, 10:39 PM) *
I only caught the fight round 8 on and Zab won 2 out of those rounds (8 and 12) but once again he faded and even got knocked down.


I think Matthysse deserved the W.
gravytrain
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 7 2010, 12:45 AM) *
I think Matthysse deserved the W.


I agree. I think a SD to Zab was reasonable, I just had Matthysse winning.

I think it's just a disappointing fight. Zab is trying to mount some comeback and it's falling short. I really just wish he would retire because the days of being an elite fighter are long behind him.
The CEO
LMAOO!! @ KK.....good shit, man.


This is all I gotta say about this fight...

Main Events/Super Judah Promotion + Judah-Matthysse + 2 Unknown Judges + Close Fight = a guaranteed W for Zab Judah .

Right?


P.S.~ Gabriel Sarmiento gets my early vote for Trainer of The Year...that guy knows his shit....he develops game changing FIGHT PLANS....it's awesome to watch how his fighters hang on his words and execute them...he's got The Middleweight Champ and is puttin' fighters on the radar...win or lose against Williams, I've been very impressed with him.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (The CEO @ Nov 6 2010, 11:05 PM) *
LMAOO!! @ KK.....good shit, man.


This is all I gotta say about this fight...

Main Events/Super Judah Promotion + Judah-Matthysse + 2 Unknown Judges + Close Fight = a guaranteed W for Zab Judah .

Right?


P.S.~ Gabriel Sarmiento gets my early vote for Trainer of The Year...that guy knows his shit....he develops game changing FIGHT PLANS....it's awesome to watch how his fighters hang on his words and execute them...he's got The Middleweight Champ and is puttin' fighters on the radar...win or lose against Williams, I've been very impressed with him.

You know how to hurt a dude. I was hoping they would be fair to the undefeated up and comer.
The CEO
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 7 2010, 02:10 AM) *
You know how to hurt a dude. I was hoping they would be fair to the undefeated up and comer.


lol...not tryin' to hurt anybody...but when I heard Buffer announce, "brought to you by Main Events and Super Judah Promotions", that was the first thing that came into my mind...

All Judah had to do was stay on his feet and make it close...


I, too, thought it was a close but clear win for the Argentinian.
gravytrain
Judah was crying when he won, probably thinking "I can't believe I beat this motherfucker!".
alaganza
Those body shots Matthysse banked early really played a factor late in the fight. Good testament to how body shots play a vital role in the fight. I had no problem with the split decision. But if it would have gone the other way I would have had no problem with that either.

I was actually proud of Zab. I thought a couple of times he was going to fly off the handle because of the holding and hitting and the headbutts. But he seemed to stay composed.
SENTRAL
Matthysse won by 3 rounds. Judah has had his chances (how many does this guy get?) and its time he looked in the mirror and owned up to being over the hill.
JLUVBABY
i actually thought the fight could have gone either way... thought judah put the early rounds in the bank but you could just see and hear those body shots matt. was landing... they sounded like he was banging on a barrell... i would have been happy with a draw actually, and i say that because in my opinion neither guys career deserves to advance off last nights fight... in my opinion judah is reclining as a fighter and would be a waste of time as roy said last night vs any of the elite fighters and most of the up and comers... and matt. and i say this in a positive light on the guy, needs to tweak his game.... i see him really struggling against a boxer that can maintain for a solid 10 or 12 rounds... thats my thoughts on this one...
The Original MrFactor
Am I the only one that thinks that Zab's dad has been a detriment to his career. He's horrible in the corner. "Do this, BOW, BOW, BOW, BOW!!" He's a good guy, from what i see. He's gotten Zab, this far. I have not seen Zab get any better over the years. Everytime I see him fight he makes the same mistakes. Its been that way for 10 years, at least. Zab, could have been something, if he changed trainers a few years back. Mosley was a better fighter when he got rid of his dad. RJJ, arguably was too. Floyd Mayweather split with his dad and found great success. There is something about your dad telling you what and how to do things when you're an adult. Nobody has taught Zab a solid defense. He's a fast southpaw with power. He should have dominated the 140 division but didnt because his dad teaches, "BOW, BOW, BOW, BOW!"
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 7 2010, 05:56 AM) *
i actually thought the fight could have gone either way... thought judah put the early rounds in the bank but you could just see and hear those body shots matt. was landing... they sounded like he was banging on a barrell... i would have been happy with a draw actually, and i say that because in my opinion neither guys career deserves to advance off last nights fight... in my opinion judah is reclining as a fighter and would be a waste of time as roy said last night vs any of the elite fighters and most of the up and comers... and matt. and i say this in a positive light on the guy, needs to tweak his game.... i see him really struggling against a boxer that can maintain for a solid 10 or 12 rounds... thats my thoughts on this one...

Yes, it could have been a draw. No, it was not out and out robbery. That said, who hurt who? Who knocked who down? Who won the championship rounds?

Matthysse.

Judah should be given some credit for having the intelligence to take a knee on the knockdown sequence. It saved his consciousness and gave the judges an excuse to give him the W.

I have to say that Judah looked decent last night. He survived 12 rounds in the ring with a dude with stones in his gloves. He did not get KOed by the young beast. I do not think he can be considered done. His ring intelligence has certainly improved since the Tszyu fight. Matthysse would have KOed the Tszyu version of Judah.

And Matthysse deserves some respect. He faced a veteran with superior boxing skills and natural gifts. Matthysse was patient. He boxed well. He just could not close the show.

It was a good fight.

Both fighters are dangerous as a result of making each other look more vulnerable than they are.
neophyte7
I agree. Matthyse is no joke.. he is very formidable. had it not been for Zabs quickness and defense he would have been stopped. Honestly, Matthyse is hard and both Bradley and the overrated Alexander would have their hands full with Matthyse.From what I saw of alexander in his last bout.. he would have gotten stopped last night. I had it draw. Zab showed improvement in handling the cut, taking a knee and remaining composed, and sticking to his jab under duress... he aint done. If he keeps his hands up and not pull back straight he does not get knocked down... Zab can build off of last night. No one will want to fight matthyse who weighed near 154 pounds for a 140 fight.
EpTXCHAMP
I guess some people are never pleased I mean all the zab haters have been asking for the zab that can box use his skills and last 12 rds. We got that last night opposed to the wild uppercut throwing one that gases after 4 rds. My guess is zab felt his power and changed his attack mentality.

This fight reminds me when khan out boxed Kotelnik alot of people were not too high on khan after then win. Until we saw what kotelnik give Alexander fits.

I think Mathysse is a strong and big 140 (dude weighed 151 on fight night) who could probably beat the B to C level fighters like Ortiz, Urango, Paulie and hang with Bradley, Alexanders and Khan
gravytrain
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 7 2010, 01:40 PM) *
I guess some people are never pleased I mean all the zab haters have been asking for the zab that can box use his skills and last 12 rds. We got that last night opposed to the wild uppercut throwing one that gases after 4 rds. My guess is zab felt his power and changed his attack mentality.

This fight reminds me when khan out boxed Kotelnik alot of people were not too high on khan after then win. Until we saw what kotelnik give Alexander fits.

I think Mathysse is a strong and big 140 (dude weighed 151 on fight night) who could probably beat the B to C level fighters like Ortiz, Urango, Paulie and hang with Bradley, Alexanders and Khan


Come on, man. Zab talked about he changed and he's on the comeback but the only thing he's done is show he'll get his ass kicked when he steps it up in competition.

QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Nov 7 2010, 10:34 AM) *
Am I the only one that thinks that Zab's dad has been a detriment to his career. He's horrible in the corner. "Do this, BOW, BOW, BOW, BOW!!" He's a good guy, from what i see. He's gotten Zab, this far. I have not seen Zab get any better over the years. Everytime I see him fight he makes the same mistakes. Its been that way for 10 years, at least. Zab, could have been something, if he changed trainers a few years back. Mosley was a better fighter when he got rid of his dad. RJJ, arguably was too. Floyd Mayweather split with his dad and found great success. There is something about your dad telling you what and how to do things when you're an adult. Nobody has taught Zab a solid defense. He's a fast southpaw with power. He should have dominated the 140 division but didnt because his dad teaches, "BOW, BOW, BOW, BOW!"


I like his dad's ADD for better or worse. It's entertained me over the years.
EpTXCHAMP
[quote name='gravytrain' date='Nov 7 2010, 01:25 PM' post='503400']
Come on, man. Zab talked about he changed and he's on the comeback but the only thing he's done is show he'll get his ass kicked when he steps it up in competition.



he has changed old zab would have gotten frustrated by the butts punched mathysse in the nuts or punch himself out. I saw a patient boxer lst night which I had not seen from zab since well maybe never
gravytrain
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 7 2010, 02:37 PM) *
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Nov 7 2010, 01:25 PM) *

Come on, man. Zab talked about he changed and he's on the comeback but the only thing he's done is show he'll get his ass kicked when he steps it up in competition.



he has changed old zab would have gotten frustrated by the butts punched mathysse in the nuts or punch himself out. I saw a patient boxer lst night which I had not seen from zab since well maybe never


He's changed in a lot of ways. He might not lose his cool anymore but he didn't come to win, he came to "steal the fight". If Zab did this during his prime it'd be different, he's just not going to reach that top level again though. Zab was put down and arguably lost to someone who has Vivian Harris as his most notable victory, the comeback isn't living up to expectations.

If Zab won comfortably it'd be different but he didn't.
EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Nov 7 2010, 01:57 PM) *
He's changed in a lot of ways. He might not lose his cool anymore but he didn't come to win, he came to "steal the fight". If Zab did this during his prime it'd be different, he's just not going to reach that top level again though. Zab was put down and arguably lost to someone who has Vivian Harris as his most notable victory, the comeback isn't living up to expectations.

If Zab won comfortably it'd be different but he didn't.


I'll give you that but whats wrong with "stealing a fight" when its obvious he couldnt K.o the much bigger man with the usual Strong Argentinian chin? I mean he landed that trademark judah uppercut and Mathysse took it from that point zab didnt get frustrated like he did when baldomir and floyd took his best shots instead stayed calm and boxed.

as for elite level its hard to look at 33 like you did at 23 but I still saw the speed and power to hang in there with the top guys at 140

As for the last statement lets see what he does next I used the Kotelnik comparison because we still dont really know how good mathysse is yet.
gravytrain
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 7 2010, 04:24 PM) *
I'll give you that but whats wrong with "stealing a fight" when its obvious he couldnt K.o the much bigger man with the usual Strong Argentinian chin? I mean he landed that trademark judah uppercut and Mathysse took it from that point zab didnt get frustrated like he did when baldomir and floyd took his best shots instead stayed calm and boxed.

as for elite level its hard to look at 33 like you did at 23 but I still saw the speed and power to hang in there with the top guys at 140

As for the last statement lets see what he does next I used the Kotelnik comparison because we still dont really know how good mathysse is yet.


Stealing a fight isn't showing you're on a comeback, neither is being in such a close fight with an untested fighter. From the beginning his only intention was doing enough to win and he almost failed to do that. I don't really care if Zab doesn't get frustrated anymore because he's garbage, staying calm in the ring isn't a way to sell yourself. All he's doing is wasting HBO's time, my time, and the time of boxing fans.

He might as well just get it over with and step in the ring with one of the top fighters, then he can get beat badly and retire.

neophyte7
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 7 2010, 04:24 PM) *
I'll give you that but whats wrong with "stealing a fight" when its obvious he couldnt K.o the much bigger man with the usual Strong Argentinian chin? I mean he landed that trademark judah uppercut and Mathysse took it from that point zab didnt get frustrated like he did when baldomir and floyd took his best shots instead stayed calm and boxed.

as for elite level its hard to look at 33 like you did at 23 but I still saw the speed and power to hang in there with the top guys at 140

As for the last statement lets see what he does next I used the Kotelnik comparison because we still dont really know how good mathysse is yet.



I agree with alot of what you are saying. Zab was durable and has some positives to build on. I mean he fought with adversity against a guy who was like a juniormiddle in size and had a granite chin. a prime zab would have wilted... Zab needs to throw more punches with both hands and work his hands more on the inside. I mean the shots he landed on Matthyse will take out most fighters... not a dominant performance but one to build on. Not many 140 guys are like Mattyse size and chin wise... Not a very good fighter but Matthyse is a tough fight for either bradley or alexander
BrutalBodyShots
Guys, putting on 10-11 pounds over night for a fight in and around this weight class is pretty typical... Zab only putting on a few is less typical than putting on 11. This isn't the late Gatti or Corrales putting on 20+ over night. Matthysse was about as much of a "junior middle" as most guys fighting in this division. Let's not make a big deal about the weight here.

EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 7 2010, 08:27 PM) *
Guys, putting on 10-11 pounds over night for a fight in and around this weight class is pretty typical... Zab only putting on a few is less typical than putting on 11. This isn't the late Gatti or Corrales putting on 20+ over night. Matthysse was about as much of a "junior middle" as most guys fighting in this division. Let's not make a big deal about the weight here.


like who? Bradley went up to 144 against Peterson on fight night Alexander 145 in his last one that's not blowing up to 151 IMO these 140 guys are smaller than welters where u see more guys going up 10-11 Lbs

BigG
Zab looked bad from what I saw..but Mathysse is no bum. In all the fights I've seen him in, he looked good, throws good hard body shots, has a nice right hand and left hook.
BrutalBodyShots
It has been proven throughout the history of the sport. I named 2 guys above that DOUBLED the amount of gain you mention multiple times out in their careers. There are plenty of other 20 pound or near 20 pound gain examples with guys like Johnson, Pavlik & Mayorga. Cotto, Castillo, Morales, Guzman, Clottey, Hatton, Mosley, Pacquiao, David Diaz etc off the top of my head are guys that have many times gained 10+ pounds between weigh in and fight night.

Point is a 10-11 pound gain is more standard protocol than a gain of just a few pounds. Guys that would only gain 2-3 pounds are better off fighting in the next division down against smaller opponents.

Shit you can skip breakfast and lunch yourself and drink very little during the day... weigh yourself, then eat a big dinner and drink 3 glasses of water and weigh yourself again. You'll gain 5 pounds easy, and you're not putting yourself through anywhere near what athletes do to make weight.

EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 8 2010, 06:20 PM) *
It has been proven throughout the history of the sport. I named 2 guys above that DOUBLED the amount of gain you mention multiple times out in their careers. There are plenty of other 20 pound or near 20 pound gain examples with guys like Johnson, Pavlik & Mayorga. Cotto, Castillo, Morales, Guzman, Clottey, Hatton, Mosley, Pacquiao, David Diaz etc off the top of my head are guys that have many times gained 10+ pounds between weigh in and fight night.

Point is a 10-11 pound gain is more standard protocol than a gain of just a few pounds. Guys that would only gain 2-3 pounds are better off fighting in the next division down against smaller opponents.

Shit you can skip breakfast and lunch yourself and drink very little during the day... weigh yourself, then eat a big dinner and drink 3 glasses of water and weigh yourself again. You'll gain 5 pounds easy, and you're not putting yourself through anywhere near what athletes do to make weight.



You are comparing gatti and Diego at the end of there career not in their primes I own the gatti ward dvd and gatti went up 7lbs. As we all age especially boxers we all know cutting weight is brutal so of course these guys blew up on fight night as they got older put Mathysse in young and in his prime. As for pavlik, Mayorga, Johnson these are guys with bigger frames to fill up you cant compare them to little 5'7 guys like zab, TB, or devon. With the exception of Hatton who because of his weight gained has earned the nick name "fatton" many 140 and smaller guys don't do this. I think you missed my point that the rest of the guys at 140 are way smaller. like devon and timmy who only go up a few pounds compared to Mathysse who went up 11-15 lbs by fight time. Meaning zab wont have to fight a bigger guy at 140 anymore unless they rematch.
neophyte7
I agree... the overall point is that Matthyse is bigger and has a better chin than most 140 guys in the division. Even the commentary made mention of matthyse size allowing him to shake off judah's shots
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Nov 8 2010, 08:20 PM) *
I agree... the overall point is that Matthyse is bigger and has a better chin than most 140 guys in the division. Even the commentary made mention of matthyse size allowing him to shake off judah's shots


Yes but Matthysse is bigger because Zab is smaller... NOT because Matthysse is an overly big guy historically at 140.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 8 2010, 07:48 PM) *
You are comparing gatti and Diego at the end of there career not in their primes I own the gatti ward dvd and gatti went up 7lbs. As we all age especially boxers we all know cutting weight is brutal so of course these guys blew up on fight night as they got older put Mathysse in young and in his prime. As for pavlik, Mayorga, Johnson these are guys with bigger frames to fill up you cant compare them to little 5'7 guys like zab, TB, or devon. With the exception of Hatton who because of his weight gained has earned the nick name "fatton" many 140 and smaller guys don't do this. I think you missed my point that the rest of the guys at 140 are way smaller. like devon and timmy who only go up a few pounds compared to Mathysse who went up 11-15 lbs by fight time. Meaning zab wont have to fight a bigger guy at 140 anymore unless they rematch.


Actually I WAS referring to their primes. Corrales in his prime at 130 would enter the ring at 147. Gatti in his mid 20's fighting at 140 would put on 15-20 pounds. I'm not talking about a mid 30's Gatti. I'm not sure of the data assume when fighting at 130-135 in his early 20's he put on similar gains.

...but ANYWAY, I wasn't comparing Corrales or Gatti to Matthysse's gain... because there is no comparison as their gains was 50-100% more.

I was talking more about the longer list I gave you of fighters in and around 140. Just because you can provide 2 names of current 140 pound fighters that don't put on a lot of weight between the weigh in and fight time doesn't outweigh the history of the sport... and in a matter of minutes I gave you a longer list... which with the exception of Hatton you cleverly ignored when all of those names prove my point 8-9 times against your 2 exceptions to the norm.



EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 8 2010, 07:38 PM) *
Actually I WAS referring to their primes. Corrales in his prime at 130 would enter the ring at 147. Gatti in his mid 20's fighting at 140 would put on 15-20 pounds. I'm not talking about a mid 30's Gatti. I'm not sure of the data assume when fighting at 130-135 in his early 20's he put on similar gains.

...but ANYWAY, I wasn't comparing Corrales or Gatti to Matthysse's gain... because there is no comparison as their gains was 50-100% more.

I was talking more about the longer list I gave you of fighters in and around 140. Just because you can provide 2 names of current 140 pound fighters that don't put on a lot of weight between the weigh in and fight time doesn't outweigh the history of the sport... and in a matter of minutes I gave you a longer list... which with the exception of Hatton you cleverly ignored when all of those names prove my point 8-9 times against your 2 exceptions to the norm.


what names did I ignore? I mentioned gatti didnt make a huge gain in that ward fight? so did he fluctuate ok maybe but not like he constantly blew up. pac man has not added 20 lbs after a weigh in please show me in which fight freddie roach says he has to eat everything ust to make welter?

second it is not only two guys its paulie, ortiz (who added a whole six lbs against maidana) and khan doesnt blow up as well. these guys at 140 are not huge and will not add 15-20 lbs like the other guys perhaps did in past. SO all I am saying is that zab will probably not have to face a guy in this division who outweighs him by 10+ lbs again. side note Nj conducted a morning weigh in meaning mathysse was at 151 about ten full hours before the fight Im pretty sure he went up a few more pounds
SmartyBeardo
I think that Zab did what he had to do to give himself a chance against a heavy handed beast. I have said this previously but it bares repeating; Judah was smart enough to take a knee when he was hurt. It won him the fight. That alone shows that this is a matured version. 5 years ago Matthysse KO's Judah.

The jury is still out on both Judah and Matthysse. Were they that mediocre or are they both that good?
neophyte7
Good question. Their fight was tough and I am sure no one is eager to get in the ring with Zab or Matthyse at 140 in terms of the "so called" top guys
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 8 2010, 10:52 PM) *
I think that Zab did what he had to do to give himself a chance against a heavy handed beast. I have said this previously but it bares repeating; Judah was smart enough to take a knee when he was hurt. It won him the fight. That alone shows that this is a matured version. 5 years ago Matthysse KO's Judah.

The jury is still out on both Judah and Matthysse. Were they that mediocre or are they both that good?


That seems like a fair analysis. Judah's ring smarts have improved and he now seems to have a cooler head. Unfortunately it comes at a time when his skills have begun to diminish. I think both of them give someone like Alexander who can't really hurt them a decent fight.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 8 2010, 08:47 PM) *
what names did I ignore? I mentioned gatti didnt make a huge gain in that ward fight? so did he fluctuate ok maybe but not like he constantly blew up. pac man has not added 20 lbs after a weigh in please show me in which fight freddie roach says he has to eat everything ust to make welter?

second it is not only two guys its paulie, ortiz (who added a whole six lbs against maidana) and khan doesnt blow up as well. these guys at 140 are not huge and will not add 15-20 lbs like the other guys perhaps did in past. SO all I am saying is that zab will probably not have to face a guy in this division who outweighs him by 10+ lbs again. side note Nj conducted a morning weigh in meaning mathysse was at 151 about ten full hours before the fight Im pretty sure he went up a few more pounds


You ignored ALL the names, LOL.

I am not talking about 15-20 pound gains... I am talking about 10-11 pound gains. My argument is that 10-11 pound gains are ordinary. Your argument is that 10-11 pound gains are extraordinary. I only provided examples of 15-20 pound gainers to give you examples OF extraordinary gains in and around the division in question, thus showing you that 10-11 pound gains are more typical.

Then I went on to list fighters that fought in and around 140 that typically DO gain 10-11 pounds... a much longer list than the excessive ones...why? Because these are ORDINARY GAINS, meaning average, meaning there are lots of examples of these types of fighters. Congrats on naming a few more guys that don't put on a lot of weight... so now your list is about half the size of mine.

And I never said Pacquiao gained 20 pounds for any fight between weigh in and ring entrance. I said he gains the typical, ORDINARY 10ish pounds that most guys in and around his division gain. The most Pacquiao ever gained was against Marquez, 16 pounds over night. Typically his gain when fighting at 130-140 pounds was in the ballpark of 10 pounds, like when he fought Morales several times, Diaz, Hatton etc. Oh speaking of Marquez btw, he's another name to add to my list of guys that typically put on 10-11 pounds.
EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 9 2010, 07:40 PM) *
You ignored ALL the names, LOL.

I am not talking about 15-20 pound gains... I am talking about 10-11 pound gains. My argument is that 10-11 pound gains are ordinary. Your argument is that 10-11 pound gains are extraordinary. I only provided examples of 15-20 pound gainers to give you examples OF extraordinary gains in and around the division in question, thus showing you that 10-11 pound gains are more typical.

Then I went on to list fighters that fought in and around 140 that typically DO gain 10-11 pounds... a much longer list than the excessive ones...why? Because these are ORDINARY GAINS, meaning average, meaning there are lots of examples of these types of fighters. Congrats on naming a few more guys that don't put on a lot of weight... so now your list is about half the size of mine.

And I never said Pacquiao gained 20 pounds for any fight between weigh in and ring entrance. I said he gains the typical, ORDINARY 10ish pounds that most guys in and around his division gain. The most Pacquiao ever gained was against Marquez, 16 pounds over night. Typically his gain when fighting at 130-140 pounds was in the ballpark of 10 pounds, like when he fought Morales several times, Diaz, Hatton etc. Oh speaking of Marquez btw, he's another name to add to my list of guys that typically put on 10-11 pounds.


You mentioned the bigger guys which was comparing apples to oranges based on frames, other than Hatton there were not Jr welters on there I believe?

Marq is a lightweight so was corrarles and gatti not junior welter. and Pac at that time was a Featherweight so who am I missing? I listed all the junior welters today but they dont go up near the 10-11 lbs even urango went up 8 lbs in his fight with Devon and he is probably the biggest jr welter today! Look mathysse weighed 151 about ten hours before fight time meaning dude was pushing 155 come fight time you will not find another jr welter weighing that much come fight time. I am not talking about other divisions I am just talking about Jr welter the division that zab will be fighthing in
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 10 2010, 04:21 PM) *
You mentioned the bigger guys which was comparing apples to oranges based on frames, other than Hatton there were not Jr welters on there I believe?

Marq is a lightweight so was corrarles and gatti not junior welter. and Pac at that time was a Featherweight so who am I missing? I listed all the junior welters today but they dont go up near the 10-11 lbs even urango went up 8 lbs in his fight with Devon and he is probably the biggest jr welter today! Look mathysse weighed 151 about ten hours before fight time meaning dude was pushing 155 come fight time you will not find another jr welter weighing that much come fight time. I am not talking about other divisions I am just talking about Jr welter the division that zab will be fighthing in


What you are missing is the point, LOL. The point is it is completely ordinary for fighters in and around the 140 pound division to gain 10 pounds between weigh in and fight time. I've listed for you guys at 140, just below 140, just above 140, that have fought below 140 then at 140, below 140 then at 140 then above 140 etc. Don't know what more I can show you here. I don't care about the other current fighters at 140. Just because there are a handful of current 140 pounders that go against the grain of history and gain less than an ordinary amount of weight between the weigh in and fight time doesn't make Matthysse some sort of abnormal gainer.

What do "frames" have to do with anything? Are you referring to height? Matthysse's "frame" most would say is bigger than any of the other guys I mentioned, as he's taller than all of them I believe, with the exception of Corrales. That said, one would believe he would gain more weight than average... yet every guy I listed that gains similar weight is "smaller" at like 5'7-5'8" give or take. Your "frame" comment just further punctuates my point that Matthysse's gain is completely ordinary.

EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 10 2010, 08:31 PM) *
What you are missing is the point, LOL. The point is it is completely ordinary for fighters in and around the 140 pound division to gain 10 pounds between weigh in and fight time. I've listed for you guys at 140, just below 140, just above 140, that have fought below 140 then at 140, below 140 then at 140 then above 140 etc. Don't know what more I can show you here. I don't care about the other current fighters at 140. Just because there are a handful of current 140 pounders that go against the grain of history and gain less than an ordinary amount of weight between the weigh in and fight time doesn't make Matthysse some sort of abnormal gainer.

What do "frames" have to do with anything? Are you referring to height? Matthysse's "frame" most would say is bigger than any of the other guys I mentioned, as he's taller than all of them I believe, with the exception of Corrales. That said, one would believe he would gain more weight than average... yet every guy I listed that gains similar weight is "smaller" at like 5'7-5'8" give or take. Your "frame" comment just further punctuates my point that Matthysse's gain is completely ordinary.


It has been proven throughout the history of the sport. I named 2 guys above that DOUBLED the amount of gain you mention multiple times out in their careers. There are plenty of other 20 pound or near 20 pound gain examples with guys like Johnson, Pavlik & Mayorga. Cotto, Castillo, Morales, Guzman, Clottey, Hatton, Mosley, Pacquiao, David Diaz etc off the top of my head are guys that have many times gained 10+ pounds between weigh in and fight night.

You listed one guy not guys at 140 from your entire list and that was cotto who towards the end of his days at 140 would jump but I just searched my dvd collection again in his fight with bronco He went up 7 pounds thats not exactly 11-15 lol man Im just messing with ya not going to go back and forth so todays 140 guys dont make up for the past ok zab is not fighting the past so I just thought that point was moot getting into frames which you obviously have never heard of it has everything to do with how well you can hold up added weight this is what the NFL and NBA to see what a kids weight should be or how much potential weight that kid can add.

frames some doctors say vary on height now that is something Im not sure on but heres a cool link to check frames if it'll give a better understanding.



frame
BrutalBodyShots
Unless you're suggesting that 140 pound fighters magically have different characteristics than 135 pound fighters or 147 pound fighters (and as we know everyone ends up fighting in multiple divisions) who cares if I mentioned guys in the divisions on either side of 140. Weight gain is weight gain. Again, your argument was that 10-11 pounds was an abnormally big gain. I proved your argument wrong, so then you added a qualifier to your statement to attempt to make it valid... which was 10-11 pounds is a big gain compared to only today's 140 pounders. Glad we cleared that up.
EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 11 2010, 03:57 PM) *
Unless you're suggesting that 140 pound fighters magically have different characteristics than 135 pound fighters or 147 pound fighters (and as we know everyone ends up fighting in multiple divisions) who cares if I mentioned guys in the divisions on either side of 140. Weight gain is weight gain. Again, your argument was that 10-11 pounds was an abnormally big gain. I proved your argument wrong, so then you added a qualifier to your statement to attempt to make it valid... which was 10-11 pounds is a big gain compared to only today's 140 pounders. Glad we cleared that up.



no not magic but those are guys that have 140 build but suck down those extra 5 thus you will see more increase

From the get my argument was 140 guys dont who zab is going to fight not the one past fighter you mentioned at 140 or the other guys in lower weight classes
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Nov 14 2010, 06:30 PM) *
no not magic but those are guys that have 140 build but suck down those extra 5 thus you will see more increase

From the get my argument was 140 guys dont who zab is going to fight not the one past fighter you mentioned at 140 or the other guys in lower weight classes


Ok so 140 pound guys have a 140 pound build but 135 pound guys and 147 pound guys don't? I didn't realize physics and genetics at only the 140 pound division differed so much.

Whatever man. I could care less about your current 140 pound fighters argument, I only commented on your first statement of 10-11 pounds being more than average which as I detailed for you ample times throughout this thread is not. Yes if you add in your "current fighters" qualifier that you tacked on later in the thread, sure magical things are happening now at 140.

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