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Box in Hand
Freddie Roach is now saying he wants Pacquiao to fight Marquez @ 147??? Can someone help me understand that please. Pacquiao just weighed in at 144 for his bout against the slow zombie Margarito and now they want Pac to fight Marquez who looked like shit at the weight against Mayweather. What's with all the crippling of fighters before they get in the ring? How can we truly call Pac an all time great when they keep handicapping fighters?
Run and Gun Game Calls
manny wants to stay at 147 so he can settle and grow into that weight class. Plus he has the name, and like floyd can make fights on his terms
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 08:26 PM) *
manny wants to stay at 147 so he can settle and grow into that weight class. Plus he has the name, and like floyd can make fights on his terms

Pfffft. If that was the case then why'd he fight for the 154lb last Saturday? laugh.gif

The Floyd fight proved that JMM shouldn't be fighting at welterweight. 140 is probably best for him and I highly doubt Pac would be willing to go down there, even though I still think he could. Strange that both these guys were fighting at a competitive level in the lower weight classes a little over 2 years ago, yet now one has been able to adjust three weight classes north, while the other hasn't.

dntknw.gif

Must be the genetics.
Run and Gun Game Calls
Must be snoop, seems henry Armstrong was able to do what others couldnt while moving up in weight as well
The CEO
Fucking shameful....shameLESS............
Box in Hand
I only want to see that fight if it's at the weight they fought at. Marquez only drinks pee pee and not Pacman Power shakes. He's usless at 147 and I know Pacquiao can make 140.
Hittman25
juan manuel marquez vs manny paciqauo at 138 or 135...i dont know about nebody else but manny has to prove he can beat a prime marquez in jmm division but first he needs to find floyd maywhether and fight that fucker to see whos the best......fight a rematch if need be but come back to marquez who sliently is cleaning up the lightweight division and you put manny in with marquez after the floyd fights and u get two mega fights for the price of one if jmm and manny and floyd do what they have to do....just to let u knw lightweights on the come up humberto soto brandon rios robert guerro and of course katsidis....idk but it would be tight to see this happen
gravytrain
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ Nov 15 2010, 02:21 PM) *
Freddie Roach is now saying he wants Pacquiao to fight Marquez @ 147??? Can someone help me understand that please. Pacquiao just weighed in at 144 for his bout against the slow zombie Margarito and now they want Pac to fight Marquez who looked like shit at the weight against Mayweather. What's with all the crippling of fighters before they get in the ring? How can we truly call Pac an all time great when they keep handicapping fighters?


Because ESPN and HBO say so, and if they say it the casual fans think it. Then when they think that they'll drop that 54.95 on a PPV to "witness history" while Pac and Top Rank are pissing on them and calling it rain.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Hittman25 @ Nov 16 2010, 07:56 AM) *
juan manuel marquez vs manny paciqauo at 138 or 135...i dont know about nebody else but manny has to prove he can beat a prime marquez in jmm division


He has for a win & a draw. He fought a prime Marquez twice & handled that business already. Sure a third fight would be nice because their styles mesh nicely for the fan to see but Manny has already proved he has what it takes to beat Marquez.
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 15 2010, 09:15 PM) *
He has for a win & a draw. He fought a prime Marquez twice & handled that business already. Sure a third fight would be nice because their styles mesh nicely for the fan to see but Manny has already proved he has what it takes to beat Marquez.

Both fights were controversial and strangely enough, between DLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito, Marquez has been the one to give him the most problems. While it might be settled for you, I think a lot of fight fans consider the Marquez saga unfinished.
thehype
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Must be snoop, seems henry Armstrong was able to do what others couldnt while moving up in weight as well


Do your research! Henry Armstrong went from 120 to 147 over an 11-year span. Manny Pacquiao went from 130 to 147 in a 2-year span.

It's defintely some type of genetics.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 15 2010, 04:18 PM) *
Both fights were controversial and strangely enough, between DLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito, Marquez has been the one to give him the most problems. While it might be settled for you, I think a lot of fight fans consider the Marquez saga unfinished.


I don't think a draw against someone you knocked down 3 times is beating them soundly, neither is a controversial SD. I'd like to see the fight again at a lower weight but I think Marquez could surprise everyone at a higher weight when fighting someone more comparable in size. I do think a 147 catchweight is bullshit though.

It'd be nice to see Pac in the ring with someone who has a chance at winning rounds though, even if it's a small chance.
Snoop
QUOTE (thehype @ Nov 15 2010, 09:35 PM) *
Do your research! Henry Armstrong went from 120 to 147 over an 11-year span. Manny Pacquiao went from 130 to 147 in a 2-year span.

It's defintely some type of genetics.

And now the Henry Armstrong comparison gets put to rest.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 08:18 AM) *
Both fights were controversial and strangely enough, between DLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito, Marquez has been the one to give him the most problems. While it might be settled for you, I think a lot of fight fans consider the Marquez saga unfinished.


It would be nice to see a 3rd fight but both guys are campaigning in different weight zones. If Pac said sure we can do it at 147 there would be a outcry because Pac would be "taking advantage" of Marquez.

Face the facts Marquez needs Pac a whole lot more than Pac needs Marquez.
Michigan Assassin
The 2 fights were very close but watching both of their more recent fights, I give JMM very little chance of finishing the fight, let alone winning it.

JMM has been a a decline defensively recently and I don't think Pacman misses very many power shots this time. Also, JMM has his hands full with Katsidis, that fight is no gimme.

I'm waiting for JMM vs Morales. I know its well past due but I'd still like them to square off.
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 15 2010, 10:20 PM) *
It would be nice to see a 3rd fight but both guys are campaigning in different weight zones. If Pac said sure we can do it at 147 there would be a outcry because Pac would be "taking advantage" of Marquez.

Face the facts Marquez needs Pac a whole lot more than Pac needs Marquez.

A 3rd fight definitely made more sense right after the 2nd Marquez fight, but just based on styles alone, I say Marquez gives Pacquiao more problems than his last 4 fights.

Oh, and I'm not saying Pacquiao needs Marquez. Manny could fight virtually anyone and it would be justified by the media. Marquez can't.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 09:25 AM) *
A 3rd fight definitely made more sense right after the 2nd Marquez fight, but just based on styles alone, I say Marquez gives Pacquiao more problems than his last 4 fights.


Yeah styles make fights. By that token I think Manny's last 3 opponents would beat the dogshit out of JMM if they ever fought.
Fitz
I never cared too much for a 3rd fight between Marquez and Pacquiao. Sure it would have been nice, but not much would have been taken away. I think it would have been more nice for Marquez to just get that win over Pacquiao. But after 24 rounds, not much could split them and to quite a few, Marquez got the better of the two. But still, not much has changed. Considering how often fighters fight, making 3 fights with one guy is a large portion of a career.
Not against a 3rd fight and would like to have seen it happen, but I don't think it was a must. In the end, all it's going to prove back then is that not much can separate them and if it were to happen now, that Pacquiao held weight better than Marquez did.
BrutalBodyShots
Pacquiao really has not moved up much in weight at all recently. From what I recall he entered the ring against Morales in November 2006 at 144 pounds, and now almost exactly 4 years later he enters the ring against Margarito at 148 pounds. 4 pounds of weight in 4 years. Not at all significant. What is significant is how much more he was dehydrating himself back then to make weight verses now not having to dehydrate at all.

Back when Pacquiao first started fighting like 15 years ago his natural weight was probably around 125, he was just dehydrating the shit outta himself to hit 105-110. So really, his natural weight going from 125 pounds at the age of 16-17 to 148 pounds a decade and a half later at 31 years old isn't much of a gain at all.

Those of you older than Pac, think about what you weighed at 16 years old verses 31 years old. I don't know about you but it makes his gain in weight seem pretty insignificant!
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 16 2010, 11:55 AM) *
Those of you older than Pac, think about what you weighed at 16 years old verses 31 years old. I don't know about you but it makes his gain in weight seem pretty insignificant!


It is about 100lbs cray.gif
Spyder
QUOTE (thehype @ Nov 15 2010, 04:35 PM) *
Do your research! Henry Armstrong went from 120 to 147 over an 11-year span. Manny Pacquiao went from 130 to 147 in a 2-year span.

It's defintely some type of genetics.

QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 15 2010, 04:46 PM) *
And now the Henry Armstrong comparison gets put to rest.

Are you guys suggesting that Manny is more impressive than Henry Armstrong because he made his rise in less time?
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 15 2010, 08:54 PM) *
It is about 100lbs cray.gif


LOL 60 for me and I was in good shape at both ages... the body just matures.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 15 2010, 11:55 PM) *
Pacquiao really has not moved up much in weight at all recently. From what I recall he entered the ring against Morales in November 2006 at 144 pounds, and now almost exactly 4 years later he enters the ring against Margarito at 148 pounds. 4 pounds of weight in 4 years. Not at all significant. What is significant is how much more he was dehydrating himself back then to make weight verses now not having to dehydrate at all.

Back when Pacquiao first started fighting like 15 years ago his natural weight was probably around 125, he was just dehydrating the shit outta himself to hit 105-110. So really, his natural weight going from 125 pounds at the age of 16-17 to 148 pounds a decade and a half later at 31 years old isn't much of a gain at all.

Those of you older than Pac, think about what you weighed at 16 years old verses 31 years old. I don't know about you but it makes his gain in weight seem pretty insignificant!



Thats what many refuse to see brutal, gr8 post
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Nov 16 2010, 02:59 AM) *
Are you guys suggesting that Manny is more impressive than Henry Armstrong because he made his rise in less time?

Ok now you're just fucking with us.

laugh.gif
Snoop
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 16 2010, 01:55 AM) *
Pacquiao really has not moved up much in weight at all recently. From what I recall he entered the ring against Morales in November 2006 at 144 pounds, and now almost exactly 4 years later he enters the ring against Margarito at 148 pounds. 4 pounds of weight in 4 years. Not at all significant. What is significant is how much more he was dehydrating himself back then to make weight verses now not having to dehydrate at all.

Back when Pacquiao first started fighting like 15 years ago his natural weight was probably around 125, he was just dehydrating the shit outta himself to hit 105-110. So really, his natural weight going from 125 pounds at the age of 16-17 to 148 pounds a decade and a half later at 31 years old isn't much of a gain at all.

Those of you older than Pac, think about what you weighed at 16 years old verses 31 years old. I don't know about you but it makes his gain in weight seem pretty insignificant!

This is not a bad argument and I remember a thread where we discussed this pretty thoroughly with graphs n shit. laugh.gif

But this still doesn't change the fact that he went from going life and death with the likes of Morales and Marquez while weighing in at 144 on fight night, to completely annihilating guys like Cotto and Margarito weighing in at, what you say, a comparable weight. It's not just that he's winning these fights, but it's how he's winning these fights. It's not better strategic boxing or potshotting his way to a UD, it's going toe-to-toe with some of the hardest hitters in 3 weights classes north and coming out the stronger guy when he couldn't do that back in the featherweight division.

AND, none of this weight gain stuff changes the fact that he's making fights at catchweights, forcing his opponents to come down and weaken themselves.
ViperSniper
This rematch has been left for too late, too much has changed since the first 2 fights took place. Manny should have taken the rubber-match straight after the 2nd, but decided to move up to claim a title against David Diaz instead and since then has not taken on the best like he used to. Marquez has since continuously taken on the best out there, is no longer at the same level to when he they last fought, and Manny has shown, carrying weight has not been an issue at all. Pac beats up Marquez at this point in time.

The fact they demand it at 147 is pretty bad, yet not surprised at all by this vulture anymore. Instead of draining fighters, maybe they wanted to mix it up a bit and demand the opponent to blow up in weight laugh.gif

This could all be irrelevant anyways, as I'm not so sure Marquez gets past Katsidis.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Nov 16 2010, 06:20 PM) *
The fact they demand it at 147 is pretty bad, yet not surprised at all by this vulture anymore. Instead of draining fighters, maybe they wanted to mix it up a bit and demand the opponent to blow up in weight laugh.gif


What weight should it be at? Pac is very comfortable at 147 & has no need to drop any weight. Marquez has shown he has NO business above 135.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 15 2010, 10:54 PM) *
This is not a bad argument and I remember a thread where we discussed this pretty thoroughly with graphs n shit. laugh.gif

But this still doesn't change the fact that he went from going life and death with the likes of Morales and Marquez while weighing in at 144 on fight night, to completely annihilating guys like Cotto and Margarito weighing in at, what you say, a comparable weight. It's not just that he's winning these fights, but it's how he's winning these fights. It's not better strategic boxing or potshotting his way to a UD, it's going toe-to-toe with some of the hardest hitters in 3 weights classes north and coming out the stronger guy when he couldn't do that back in the featherweight division.

AND, none of this weight gain stuff changes the fact that he's making fights at catchweights, forcing his opponents to come down and weaken themselves.


He was probably going life and death because he was drying himself out big time to make 130-135 at that point in his life being that his body had matured more which happens to everyone once they hit their mid-late 20's.

Now he's barely cutting weight at all, so he's entering the ring in top form at 100% every time out physically.

I do agree that the catch weights are BS.
ViperSniper
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 16 2010, 10:07 AM) *
What weight should it be at? Pac is very comfortable at 147 & has no need to drop any weight. Marquez has shown he has NO business above 135.


Well the fight should not happen now but if they were to fight at this point in time I think 140 would be more appropriate. Even then, Pac beats Marquez and stops him this time. Marquez is 37 years old now and has taken more tough fights recently which has taken it's toll.
King Eugene
This fight is pointless but I could see why many would call for it.

At this point in both of their careers Manny would absolutely blow Marquez out the frame. He's arguably faster and stronger than he was then. The shots Manny put Marquez down with then will put him out now. Marquez has lost a few steps and Manny has gained a few. This would be a total mismatch.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 01:54 AM) *
none of this weight gain stuff changes the fact that he's making fights at catchweights, forcing his opponents to come down and weaken themselves.



I am so sick of this fucking argument. He is boxing against grown men, if they dont like the contracted weight, then dont fight pacquio. Its the same as a power puncher wanting a smaller ring or smaller gloves, of course they are gonna get everything they can in their favor for fight night.

Pacquio didnt force Oscar delahoya to come down in weight. At the time, even with his loss to Floyd, Oscar was the bigger name, and the bigger draw. he felt because of pacquios size, he would land that left hook and send manny into the third row. Oscar signed the fight like many other do, out of arrogance. "i will kill this little man". Oscar always has the power when it comes time to neg. a fight.

At the end of the day, they are grown men, and professional boxers. If they dont feel they can win at a smaller weight, dont sign the fight, they do have a choice ya know.

And my god quit crying about it, Method wanted to laugh about people getting upset over comments made by team Margarito about freddy roach, in my opinion this is even more pathetic.
Spyder
I think that the only point of this fight is to tell Mayweather that Manny doesn't need him.
D-MARV
I think that Manny has been so impressive as of late for two reasons... 1) like Brutal said, he hasn't had to drain himself to make weight and 2) He has fought guys who were "stylistically" perfect for him. I would love to see him fight Tim Bradley. But honestly, If he doesn't cash out on Mayweather, I feel that we will continue to see him fight guys who are custom made for him. The catchweight fights are totally BS though. How come he can fight Cotto at 145 but they want Marquez at 147? Shit they wanted Mosley to come down and fight him at 143 and Mosley said "Fuck it, let's do 140" and Team Pacquiao immediately signed to fight Cotto. Pacquiao is an amazing talent but his team is full of snakes and rats.
Run and Gun Game Calls
And he doesnt, but Floyd needs Manny, with floyds inactivity, and legal problems, he will be an afterthought when talking about his era without a pacquio fight. The no loss thing wont mean anything. Hell Most the people I know have no professional losses either, and just like floyd they dont ever fight.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 16 2010, 09:14 AM) *
I am so sick of this fucking argument. He is boxing against grown men, if they dont like the contracted weight, then dont fight pacquio. Its the same as a power puncher wanting a smaller ring or smaller gloves, of course they are gonna get everything they can in their favor for fight night.

Pacquio didnt force Oscar delahoya to come down in weight. At the time, even with his loss to Floyd, Oscar was the bigger name, and the bigger draw. he felt because of pacquios size, he would land that left hook and send manny into the third row. Oscar signed the fight like many other do, out of arrogance. "i will kill this little man". Oscar always has the power when it comes time to neg. a fight.

At the end of the day, they are grown men, and professional boxers. If they dont feel they can win at a smaller weight, dont sign the fight, they do have a choice ya know.

And my god quit crying about it, Method wanted to laugh about people getting upset over comments made by team Margarito about freddy roach, in my opinion this is even more pathetic.



I wonder what you cats think would happen if Margarito tried to dictate anything. Was Bob Arum going to let Margarito do anything other than sign the contract? I wonder how Arum would handle Margarito turning down the fight and leaving his money fighter without an opponent.

I think the only choice Margarito had was how he was going to make 150, not whether or not he wanted to make it. If anything Arum would just throw money at Margarito until he signed for it.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (Fitz @ Nov 16 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Brutal, that definitely isn't true about him drying out. I distinctly remember Morales requesting the Pacquiao fight happen at 135, Pacquiao's team said 'no' that 135 is too big. Hence why Morales fought Raheem at 135 and then coming back down. If Pacquiao really was drying himself out, he would have taken Morales at 135.


When I use the term "drying himself out" I mean cutting weight as opposed to not cutting weight. I'm not saying he barely had a pulse... but if he's weighing 144 on fight night while weighing in at 129.5 or whatever, certainly he had to dehydrate quite a lot to get there.

Snoop
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 17 2010, 01:50 AM) *
When I use the term "drying himself out" I mean cutting weight as opposed to not cutting weight. I'm not saying he barely had a pulse... but if he's weighing 144 on fight night while weighing in at 129.5 or whatever, certainly he had to dehydrate quite a lot to get there.

Well if what Fitz says is true, why wouldn't he take a Morales fight at 135? Wouldn't that be less weight to cut and by your logic, make him a fresher, more dangerous fighter?

I mean the problem I have with the 'drying out' argument is that it applies to all fighters that dehydrate to make weight, which is pretty much almost all fighters. If more fighters started fighting at their fight night weight class and challenging guys that traditionally come in 10 lbs heavier, do you honestly believe they'd have as much success as Pacquaio has had?
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Nov 17 2010, 03:11 AM) *
No 'if's', lol. It is true.

LOL. My bad man. I know you research your shit pretty thoroughly.
Spyder
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 09:16 PM) *
Well if what Fitz says is true, why wouldn't he take a Morales fight at 135? Wouldn't that be less weight to cut and by your logic, make him a fresher, more dangerous fighter?

I mean the problem I have with the 'drying out' argument is that it applies to all fighters that dehydrate to make weight, which is pretty much almost all fighters. If more fighters started fighting at their fight night weight class and challenging guys that traditionally come in 10 lbs heavier, do you honestly believe they'd have as much success as Pacquaio has had?

Not all fighters handle it the same. Obviously it would affect some fighters more than others. They're not robots man! lol
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 09:16 PM) *
Well if what Fitz says is true, why wouldn't he take a Morales fight at 135? Wouldn't that be less weight to cut and by your logic, make him a fresher, more dangerous fighter?


There really isn't any "logic" needed here fellas, it's pretty simple.

If you dehydrate to make weight, which nearly ALL fighters do as we've agreed, you are more susceptible to being hurt in fights, RELATIVE to the same guy NOT dehydrating to make weight. Since nearly ALL fighters do dehydrate, we have a level playing field where while Fighter A may be more susceptible, so is Fighter B so who gives a shit.

Whether or not Pacquiao was fighting at 130 or 135 doesn't matter - He was always in mid 140's on fight night so he was "drying out" to some degree in either case. At 130 or 135 he was dehydrating far more than he is today because today he fights and weighs in very close to the same amount that he fights at... like a big meal or taking a big shit apart.

Bottom line is today without dehydrating himself he's going to take punches from his opponents better than back when he was cutting big amounts of weight.

If anyone disagrees with this, why do YOU think he was hurt in his fights against Morales and Marquez, guys that obviously don't hit as hard as Margarito or the bigger boys Pacquiao has taken power shots from in recent years?
Snoop
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 17 2010, 06:13 PM) *
There really isn't any "logic" needed here fellas, it's pretty simple.

If you dehydrate to make weight, which nearly ALL fighters do as we've agreed, you are more susceptible to being hurt in fights, RELATIVE to the same guy NOT dehydrating to make weight. Since nearly ALL fighters do dehydrate, we have a level playing field where while Fighter A may be more susceptible, so is Fighter B so who gives a shit.

Whether or not Pacquiao was fighting at 130 or 135 doesn't matter - He was always in mid 140's on fight night so he was "drying out" to some degree in either case. At 130 or 135 he was dehydrating far more than he is today because today he fights and weighs in very close to the same amount that he fights at... like a big meal or taking a big shit apart.

Bottom line is today without dehydrating himself he's going to take punches from his opponents better than back when he was cutting big amounts of weight.

If anyone disagrees with this, why do YOU think he was hurt in his fights against Morales and Marquez, guys that obviously don't hit as hard as Margarito or the bigger boys Pacquiao has taken power shots from in recent years?

So you're saying Pacquiao wanted Morales to dehydrate down to 130 to make Morales more susceptible to being hurt. In other words, he believed he could handle the susceptibility of dehydration better than Morales could? I dunno if I buy that. But then again, he is asking for all these catchweights to make fighters come down in weight and, as you say, more susceptible to being hurt, so maybe the trend started with Morales. laugh.gif

And if you're going to argue Pacquiao strength and resiliency is a result of him not having to dehydrate as much, then it actually does matter if he fought at 130 or 135. He may be still be drying out to some degree in either case, but he's drying out 5lbs less than the other, and that makes a huge difference. Why wouldn't he take the option of him drying out less? Because he thought he could dehydrate better than Morales could?

Why do I think he's able to suddenly take and give better shots in the higher weight classes? I dunno. There's a ton of theories out there. Your theory of not having to cut weight giving you more strength and resiliency is certainly one of them, but again I don't really buy it because it's a theory that applies to EVERY fighter. Why don't all fighters adopt these tactics? Why do the ones that do, fail? Why did JMM get horribly embarrassed by Floyd when he moved up the same weights as Pacquiao? Why did Corrales get beaten around the ring by Clottey when he moved up to 147? Why has Castillo lost both his power and ability to take shots since moving up to a more comfortable weight class? I mean is Pacquiao just THAT special?
Run and Gun Game Calls
Is pacquio just that special, in my opinion, yeah he really is.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 17 2010, 03:09 PM) *
So you're saying Pacquiao wanted Morales to dehydrate down to 130 to make Morales more susceptible to being hurt.


I think you need to reread my last post and my original post. I never said anything about Pacquiao-Morales or 130 verses 135. Fitz mentioned it and you ran with it, all I was talking about was Pacquiao today verses the Pacquiao that got hurt in the ring against Marquez and Morales with respect to weight loss. My opinion is he gets hurt less today because he's not dehydrating at all to make weight today like he was in the past. You have yet to give a single reason why YOU think there is a difference today. If it's not because of the lack of dehydration, what is it? Your "I dunno" response is all you offered on the subject.

Referencing past prime guys like Castillo and Corrales moving up in weight late in their careers due to not being able to make weight is very different than Pacquiao moving up while in his prime to seek bigger fights. Those guys were known for taking brutal beatings and being brutally stopped, neither of which applies to a prime Pacquiao. Their continuing to get hurt at higher weights results more from where they were on their career time line and the amount of punishment and wars they had endured along the way... which certainly outweighs the fact that they had to cut less weight in the higher divisions.

Why did Marquez get owned by Mayweather when he moved up? How about because he faced the best fighter in the world? lol.

Pacquiao is "that special" in the sense that the guy proves that a good little man can beat a good big man. The same way Mayweather could fight a few legit middleweights while weighing 150 for the fight. He's that good that he'd overcome the size difference and win the fight with speed and accuracy.
Snoop
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 17 2010, 11:29 PM) *
I think you need to reread my last post and my original post. I never said anything about Pacquiao-Morales or 130 verses 135. Fitz mentioned it and you ran with it, all I was talking about was Pacquiao today verses the Pacquiao that got hurt in the ring against Marquez and Morales with respect to weight loss. My opinion is he gets hurt less today because he's not dehydrating at all to make weight today like he was in the past. You have yet to give a single reason why YOU think there is a difference today. If it's not because of the lack of dehydration, what is it? Your "I dunno" response is all you offered on the subject.

Referencing past prime guys like Castillo and Corrales moving up in weight late in their careers due to not being able to make weight is very different than Pacquiao moving up while in his prime to seek bigger fights. Those guys were known for taking brutal beatings and being brutally stopped, neither of which applies to a prime Pacquiao. Their continuing to get hurt at higher weights results more from where they were on their career time line and the amount of punishment and wars they had endured along the way... which certainly outweighs the fact that they had to cut less weight in the higher divisions.

Why did Marquez get owned by Mayweather when he moved up? How about because he faced the best fighter in the world? lol.

Pacquiao is "that special" in the sense that the guy proves that a good little man can beat a good big man. The same way Mayweather could fight a few legit middleweights while weighing 150 for the fight. He's that good that he'd overcome the size difference and win the fight with speed and accuracy.

I know you weren't the one that originally brought up the Pacquiao/Morales example at 130 vs 135, I was just applying your reasoning to that example and it didn't make sense. If Pacquiao is stronger because he's cutting weight less, then wouldn't he want to cut less weight and take the 135 bout instead of the 130? The only two reasons I can think of him NOT wanting to take the 135 bout over the 130 is 1) He just didn't know he would be stronger at a higher weight class, or 2) He thought Morales weakening himself to 130 (as per your reasoning of how fighters drastically cutting weight will hurt them more), would outweigh the benefits of him allowing himself to fight more at his "natural weight".

And again by using your reasoning that dehydration causes fighters to lose both power and resiliency (which is how you explain why Pacquiao is able to take and give harder shots in the higher weight classes), isn't he therefore intentionally weakening fighters by contracting them to come in at a weight further from their natural weight class i.e. Cotto and Margarito? I mean if you want a circumstance to fit for one fighter, you gotta fit it for all of em.

And if Pacquiao was beating these guys like Mayweather was (superior boxing ability and strategy), I'd be all about it. But he goes toe-to-toe with these guys, something that Mayweather has yet to do. That's why I place them in different categories.

But if you want to go into why I think he's winning these fights, my best reason would be the catchweights. Even by your own logic the fighters he's challenging are coming in at a weight disadvantage, which make them easier targets. That and the fact that most of his recent opponents have recently been through some severe physical or psychological beating. Hardly guys I consider "top competition."
Run and Gun Game Calls
Snoop, nobody tells dlh what to do in a match. Win or lose he is always the main draw. He agreed to a catchweight because he thought manny was an easy target, and he would come back with a big win, hell he fought to a disputed loss to mayweather.

That being said, again these are grown men and professionals. Nobody forced them to sign to fight pacquio. they made the choice, trained for at least 8 weeks in camp, and were supposed to be prepaired.

Like Tarver told my fav. fighter of all time. "got any excuses tonight roy". They signed the fight, and lost quit making excuses.
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 18 2010, 12:16 AM) *
Snoop, nobody tells dlh what to do in a match. Win or lose he is always the main draw. He agreed to a catchweight because he thought manny was an easy target, and he would come back with a big win, hell he fought to a disputed loss to mayweather.

That being said, again these are grown men and professionals. Nobody forced them to sign to fight pacquio. they made the choice, trained for at least 8 weeks in camp, and were supposed to be prepaired.

Like Tarver told my fav. fighter of all time. "got any excuses tonight roy". They signed the fight, and lost quit making excuses.

That's all fine and well, but does any of that change the fact that they're still weakening themselves? Is it possible that they are voluntarily weakening themselves? Just because they are agreeing to a weight restriction does not mean they won't be physically affected by the weight restriction; it just means they're okay with taking that disadvantage.
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