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Run and Gun Game Calls
I follow boxing very closely. We have all these complaints about catchweights for titles, yet I heard Teddy Atlas the other night say it was commonin the 20's 30's 40's and even some into the 50's. He also called that the golden age of boxing. So If it was common place in the golden age of boxing, why is it such a bad thing now. Hell maybe we would get more name fighters fighting each other.
Snoop
For me it depends on the circumstance for each catchweight. If it's something like a Paul Williams vs Sergio Martinez where both fighters regularly traveled between the weight classes, that fine. In fact I don't even know why it's for a catchweight, but neither guy will be at a disadvantage. If you're making someone come down from their natural weight and significantly handicap the fighter, like Pac has been doing, then that IMO is bullshit.

Let's not also forget that last Saturday's title bout was bullshit beyond catchweight. Even if it was set at the legit weight of 154, neither guy had a right to the title shot and NOTHING would change the fact that it was for a paper title; the catchweight just made it worse.

But overall, good question. I too would like to know more about the history of catchweights.
megaholic
I could see catchweights being used in the timeframe that teddy was talking about because we didnt have all the junior and super weight classes. If back in the day a welterweight and a middleweight wanted to meet, they didnt have the junior middle division to fight in. Now fighters are using catchweights when the weight division is only 6lbs difference. I love pacman as a fighter and think he is doing great things as a person for his country, but to have a catchweight for a 154lb title at 150lbs which is closer to weleterweight than it is the division the so called title they are fighting for is in, is just dumb.

With how crooked these sanctioning organizations are, you figure the whole purpose behind creating these junior and super weight classes was all motivated by the almighty $$$.

Look at the UFC right now, they have a style similar to the original 8 boxing weight classes. There isnt a division every 6lbs and it doesn't seem to be hurting the fighters any.

So for pacman to have 8 titles in 8 different divisions would have been impossible 50 years ago because there were only 8 divisions back then.
Method
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 02:22 PM) *
I follow boxing very closely. We have all these complaints about catchweights for titles, yet I heard Teddy Atlas the other night say it was commonin the 20's 30's 40's and even some into the 50's. He also called that the golden age of boxing. So If it was common place in the golden age of boxing, why is it such a bad thing now. Hell maybe we would get more name fighters fighting each other.

In the Golden Age of Boxing, there weren't as many weight classes. Perhaps the catch-weights of that time were some of the actual weight classes we have today. But to break em down even more today? C'mon.
Maxy
Off the top of my head Bernard Hopkins has participated in 3 catchweight bouts vs De La Hoya, Winky Wright and Kelly Pavlik but it's Pac who catches all the flack...

Interesting.

Leonard definitely boxed LaLonde for two titles at 168 (won the super middleweight and the light heavyweight simultaneously) which was a joke, although I enjoyed the fight.

Joe Gans boxed Joe Walcott in 1904...a catchweight bout made at 138. This was lightweight vs weltweight and it ended in a draw. Walcott didn't make 138, I think he is listed as coming in at 140 and I don't think a title was at stake.

Henry Armstrong had at least one catch weight bout and there are probably a lot more out there. It's not a new thing but today, with all the weight divisions it really isn't necessary.
Method
QUOTE (Maxy @ Nov 15 2010, 03:27 PM) *
Off the top of my head Bernard Hopkins has participated in 3 catchweight bouts vs De La Hoya, Winky Wright and Kelly Pavlik but it's Pac who catches all the flack...

Interesting.


Yeah, interesting, cuz it was DLH that demanded Hopkins weigh in no more than 157 1/2 (he smoked it, and came in at 156), and Pavlik and Wright both made Hopkins step down to 170, despite the fact that they both walk around at 200.
Maxy
QUOTE (Method @ Nov 15 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Yeah, interesting, cuz it was DLH that demanded Hopkins wight in no more than 157 1/2 (he smoked it, and came in at like 156), and Pavlik and Wright both made Hopkins step down to 170, desite the fact that they both walk around at 200.


I knew you'd swat me for making reference to Hopkins in the way that I did. thumbsup_anim.gif Fair is fair, but hey, the thread is about catchweights, I just made the point that B-Hop's been in a few.

Perhaps adding interesting didn't do me any favours...
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 02:22 PM) *
I follow boxing very closely. We have all these complaints about catchweights for titles, yet I heard Teddy Atlas the other night say it was commonin the 20's 30's 40's and even some into the 50's. He also called that the golden age of boxing. So If it was common place in the golden age of boxing, why is it such a bad thing now. Hell maybe we would get more name fighters fighting each other.


I honestly can't think of any fighter or fighters from that era using catchweights on a regular basis. Not to mention that fighters from those eras would regularly come in light for fights and title fights so I've my doubts to how common catchweights were with the major fighters of those eras, especially title bouts.

There are far more divisions now too as someone else said.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 06:29 AM) *
For me it depends on the circumstance for each catchweight. If it's something like a Paul Williams vs Sergio Martinez where both fighters regularly traveled between the weight classes, that fine. In fact I don't even know why it's for a catchweight, but neither guy will be at a disadvantage. If you're making someone come down from their natural weight and significantly handicap the fighter, like Pac has been doing, then that IMO is bullshit.


So by that token excluding it was for a meaningless belt you have no problem with last weekends fight? Margarito's natural weight is 147 & he has shown he has no business at 154. Therefore Pac I suppose did him a favour by making the fight at 150.
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 15 2010, 09:49 PM) *
So by that token excluding it was for a meaningless belt you have no problem with last weekends fight? Margarito's natural weight is 147 & he has shown he has no business at 154. Therefore Pac I suppose did him a favour by making the fight at 150.

Not really. I don't really care for either fighter and I damn sure wasn't going to put in the effort to defend someone like Margarito. You wanna handicap and beat up a piece of crap like Margarito? Great. I enjoyed watching it. Just don't go around saying it was monumental event for a "record breaking 8th division title" afterward.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 08:52 AM) *
Not really. I don't really care for either fighter and I damn sure wasn't going to put in the effort to defend someone like Margarito. You wanna handicap and beat up a piece of crap like Margarito? Great. I enjoyed watching it. Just don't go around saying it was monumental event for a "record breaking 8th division title" afterward.


I don't recognise Manny as anything but the best boxer on the planet right now. Belts mean nothing & his 8th "world championship" is his most meaningless.

For a guy who does not care for either guy you sure have made a lot of posts about both fighters in the last few days though.

So to clarify things

Margarito was handicapped at 150lbs
Margarito has never been impressive at 154
Margarito struggles to make 147 so therefore he is at a major disadvantage having a 3lb buffer from his optimal fight weight in his favour.
Pac took advantage of Margarito & abused him like he was a Austrian locked in a cellar.
Snoop
Do you think Margarito was the best opponent Manny could have faced?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 01:22 PM) *
I follow boxing very closely. We have all these complaints about catchweights for titles, yet I heard Teddy Atlas the other night say it was commonin the 20's 30's 40's and even some into the 50's. He also called that the golden age of boxing. So If it was common place in the golden age of boxing, why is it such a bad thing now. Hell maybe we would get more name fighters fighting each other.


If you go back and research those catch weight bouts they weren't for titles... Atlas is right they were common place fights, and its nothing wrong with them today but they become a farce when they are being billed as world championship fights... if they where fighting for a jr middleweight belt margarito should have been allowed to weigh in at 154... it obviously wouldnt have made a difference... not taking anything away from pac but since he holds a peice of metal at 154 hows about him defend that belt a few times?... Not happening... im sure the paul williams sergio martinez winner would love a piece of him...
Snoop
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 15 2010, 10:31 PM) *
If you go back and research those catch weight bouts they weren't for titles... Atlas is right they were common place fights, and its nothing wrong with them today but they become a farce when they are being billed as world championship fights... if they where fighting for a jr middleweight belt margarito should have been allowed to weigh in at 154... it obviously wouldnt have made a difference... not taking anything away from pac but since he holds a peice of metal at 154 hows about him defend that belt a few times?... Not happening... im sure the paul williams sergio martinez winner would love a piece of him...

It might have made a difference, it might not have. I mean none of us will ever really know. I don't see how people are so sure it didn't make a difference when we have no comparative example to base that on.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 09:26 AM) *
Do you think Margarito was the best opponent Manny could have faced?


Who would you have had him fought from the available talent pool not already committed to fights?

This is not a fantasy "make a fight" but one grounded in the reality of the available talent.

I think Margarito was a reasonable opponent to face. Not great but far from this weight drained skeletor on a respirator some are making him out to be.
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 15 2010, 10:37 PM) *
Who would you have had him fought from the available talent pool not already committed to fights?

This is not a fantasy "make a fight" but one grounded in the reality of the available talent.

I think Margarito was a reasonable opponent to face. Not great but far from this weight drained skeletor on a respirator some are making him out to be.

Margarito wasn't the worst choice, in fact it turned out to be mildly entertaining. My problem is that people are making out the win to be a greater accomplishment than it actually is.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 15 2010, 04:37 PM) *
It might have made a difference, it might not have. I mean none of us will ever really know. I don't see how people are so sure it didn't make a difference when we have no comparative example to base that on.


i dont see where a difference could have or would have been made with an extra 4 pounds for marg... Im aginst the catchweights 1 and 2 as me and hype laughed about last night i was one of the ones that drunk the kool aid about marg... but no matter what he weighed truth is marg didnt have what it took to deal with pac unless pac stood in front of him like a fool which wasnt going to happen... mannys speed crippled him and his willingness to take multiple shots in hopes to land 1 was the killer... He had no other choice but to fight manny like he did and props to him for not giving up... and i guess props to manny for carrying him the last two rounds cuzz im pretty certain he could have taken him out of there the last few rounds... I have to give the lil dude his props for his body of work... he deserves the accolades... i still dont think he beats mayweather but that fight in my eyes looks a lot more competitive than i once thought it to be... may wil have to work for the win....
Snoop
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 16 2010, 12:33 AM) *
i dont see where a difference could have or would have been made with an extra 4 pounds for marg... Im aginst the catchweights 1 and 2 as me and hype laughed about last night i was one of the ones that drunk the kool aid about marg... but no matter what he weighed truth is marg didnt have what it took to deal with pac unless pac stood in front of him like a fool which wasnt going to happen... mannys speed crippled him and his willingness to take multiple shots in hopes to land 1 was the killer... He had no other choice but to fight manny like he did and props to him for not giving up... and i guess props to manny for carrying him the last two rounds cuzz im pretty certain he could have taken him out of there the last few rounds... I have to give the lil dude his props for his body of work... he deserves the accolades... i still dont think he beats mayweather but that fight in my eyes looks a lot more competitive than i once thought it to be... may wil have to work for the win....

No I get you man, Margarito fought well on Saturday, but nobody can definitively say the fight would have played out different he had those 4 extra pounds because we have no example to gauge that with. And I know you can make a million and one hypotheticals with any fight, but I only focus on this one because it would have been allowed under normal circumstances of a 154lb fight.
Hops
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 16 2010, 01:37 AM) *
No I get you man, Margarito fought well on Saturday, but nobody can definitively say the fight would have played out different he had those 4 extra pounds because we have no example to gauge that with. And I know you can make a million and one hypotheticals with any fight, but I only focus on this one because it would have been allowed under normal circumstances of a 154lb fight.


I definitely think, after watching the fight again, that Margarito could have knocked out Pac if he was allowed to fight at 154. However, it would still be a sham because Pac couldn't even weigh 147. And then there would be a rematch at 150. The more people like you are gonna get pissed. Well, after the satisfaction you'd get by seeing Pac get beat. And regardless of weight, the sanctioning bodies will just throw in the belts on the line to a fight "of this magnitude".
HaydelHammer
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 15 2010, 02:22 PM) *
I follow boxing very closely. We have all these complaints about catchweights for titles, yet I heard Teddy Atlas the other night say it was commonin the 20's 30's 40's and even some into the 50's. He also called that the golden age of boxing. So If it was common place in the golden age of boxing, why is it such a bad thing now. Hell maybe we would get more name fighters fighting each other.


Atlas also predicted that Margarito would KO pacman last monday during the military espn boxing special.

As far as the catch weights...fan fights...yes..no problem with them.....but you "claiming" weight class titles along the way...bitch sh*t.

plus it's so many damn belts out any one of us here could prob go scoop one up. USBAFO cruiserweight belts and sh*t.
Snoop
QUOTE (Hops @ Nov 16 2010, 01:45 AM) *
I definitely think, after watching the fight again, that Margarito could have knocked out Pac if he was allowed to fight at 154. However, it would still be a sham because Pac couldn't even weigh 147. And then there would be a rematch at 150. The more people like you are gonna get pissed. Well, after the satisfaction you'd get by seeing Pac get beat. And regardless of weight, the sanctioning bodies will just throw in the belts on the line to a fight "of this magnitude".

Remember, you said that, not me. And if it's a sham because Pac couldn't weigh in at 147, who's fault is that?
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Hops @ Nov 16 2010, 12:45 PM) *
However, it would still be a sham because Pac couldn't even weigh 147. And then there would be a rematch at 150.


Armstrong weighed in the low 140's for his 147 career & was light when he fought for the 160lb title. Your point?
Snoop
All these fighters that challenged bigger guys for title belts despite weighing in at a lower weight class, Jones vs Ruiz, Robinson vs Maxim, Armstrong vs whoever, did the bigger guy ever have to concede to a catchweight? (This is a serious question)
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 17 2010, 02:44 AM) *
All these fighters that challenged bigger guys for title belts despite weighing in at a lower weight class, Jones vs Ruiz, Robinson vs Maxim, Armstrong vs whoever, did the bigger guy ever have to concede to a catchweight? (This is a serious question)


Wasn't Hopkins fight with Winky for the LHW title?
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 17 2010, 06:44 PM) *
All these fighters that challenged bigger guys for title belts despite weighing in at a lower weight class, Jones vs Ruiz, Robinson vs Maxim, Armstrong vs whoever, did the bigger guy ever have to concede to a catchweight? (This is a serious question)


The only one I can recall immediately was that piece of shit SRL challenging for the 168 & 175lb titles in the same fight but making the champion weigh in a full division lower (168). That is IMO worse than Pac's catchweight fights combined.

I am sure there have been some in the past but that was more to do with real legends like Mickey Walker looking to challenge themselves at the highest possible level & handicapping themselves in the process. I mean this is a welter/middleweight fighter taking on big active heavyweight contenders & not only being competitive with them but winning as well.

Guys like Walker are why I will never classify Pac or Floyd in that top 10 P4P all time fighters because they just don't measure up in any way shape or form especially when subjected to closer scrutiny. This is the guy who beat & lost to Maxie Rosenbloom who is one of the greatest 175lb fighters in history.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 17 2010, 02:44 AM) *
All these fighters that challenged bigger guys for title belts despite weighing in at a lower weight class, Jones vs Ruiz, Robinson vs Maxim, Armstrong vs whoever, did the bigger guy ever have to concede to a catchweight? (This is a serious question)


Robinson wanted to fight Floyd Patterson too, he probably would have gave up about 35-40 pounds in that fight.
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 17 2010, 11:14 AM) *
The only one I can recall immediately was that piece of shit SRL challenging for the 168 & 175lb titles in the same fight but making the champion weigh in a full division lower (168). That is IMO worse than Pac's catchweight fights combined.

Now THAT is fucking ridiculous. How do you challenge for belts in two different weight classes in one fight? I guess Pac still has a lot of catching up to do.

laugh.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 18 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Now THAT is fucking ridiculous. How do you challenge for belts in two different weight classes in one fight? I guess Pac still has a lot of catching up to do.

laugh.gif


Yeah when you take a good look at the history of boxing & what others have done you cannot seriously put Mayweather or Pac in the top 10 all time.
Snoop
According to Boxrec, Joey Maxim weighed in at 173 for his LHW Championship bout against Robinson. When did Robinson challenge for the 175 and 168 title at the same time?
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Snoop @ Nov 17 2010, 07:20 PM) *
According to Boxrec, Joey Maxim weighed in at 173 for his LHW Championship bout against Robinson. When did Robinson challenge for the 175 and 168 title at the same time?


He said Sugar Ray Leonard, not Sugar Ray Robinson.
Snoop
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Nov 18 2010, 01:26 AM) *
He said Sugar Ray Leonard, not Sugar Ray Robinson.

Whoops. My bad.
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