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Fitz
I don't want to start a thread comparing the two and have the typical discussions regarding them, but I'm wondering, how would Mayweather and Pacquiao's careers be like now without DLH? Would it be similar? Different? Better? Worse?
Keep in mind, I am doing this based on DLH basically being invisible and irrelevant and never have to even called them out.

Floyd Mayweather:
I'm going to continue his career just after the Baldomir fight in November 2006. In 2006, Shane Mosley beat Vargas 2 times, and was offered to fight Mayweather in November. Mosley had fought twice that year, and turned it down as he said prior to that, he would take the rest of the year off after the rematch with Vargas mid 2006, and said he would be happy to fight in 2007. Mayweather took the Baldomir fight, and became undisputed welter weight champion.
I think in 2007, Floyd Mayweather had several paths he could take for a fight in the first quarter of 2007. He could take Mosley up on that offer and do it in 2007. He could go for a Cotto fight, where just prior to that in December 2006, Cotto just picked up the vacant WBA welter weight title in his debut fight at 147 against Quintana. Or he could go back to the fight that's been on his back for a while now. The Margarito fight. Bottom line is, I think at that time it's Mosley, Cotto or Margarito.
I am going to say he takes the Mosley fight. Cotto is with Arum, and I think Golden Boy would be easier to deal with Mayweather, than Arum would be, based on Floyd and Arums relationship, and I think he would make more money fighting Mosley than Margarito.
March-May 2007, Mayweather whoops Shane. Though maybe not as physical as he did just recently, as then, I don't think Floyd was as confident in his physical strength as he is now. He has grown into the division now. Regardless, he beats Shane soundly.

After that fight, I think he goes the same way as he did with his current career. He takes on Ricky Hatton in December of 2007, and we know how that went.

Now we are in 2008. I think Mayweather takes the first half of 2008 off. I think in 2008, Cotto-Mosley happens still, and we get a similar result to what we saw originally. Cotto winning closely in the first quarter of 2008.
I think the next option is Cotto and Mayweather late 2008. They both have wins over Mosley (yes, this is my story), Mayweather is still regarded undisputed, but Cotto still has that paper WBA title.
Late 2008, the fight happens, and I think Mayweather wins the fight by very close decision.
In 2009, I think options are drying out a bit. He could fight Margarito, or maybe explore moving up to 154 again and fighting Yuri Foreman? Or maybe some guys at 140 like Bradley are calling him out and willing to move up to 147? Then much the same in 2010.

A summary is that I think Floyd Mayweather maybe would not have been retired for a little bit without a DLH fight. I think he would have fought on, and he would still be a star, though probably not to where he is today. I think he would have been forced to take more fights, or at least more willing.
I think he would have fought someone like a Cotto or Margarito at some point as well without the layoff, and probably the next best options for him (with no DLH in the picture).
I don't think he has the appeal he would have today, and recognition he gets and the money he quite makes. But would probably be a little harder to criticise.
Funnily enough, I think Mayweather would get more credit in his current career for his win over Mosley, than he would if they fought 2006-2007. At the time, Mosley hadn't fought Cotto or Margarito. At that point, his only recent significant wins over Vargas, and I don't think people would have been putting much stock into that.
Mosley became the top dog, after he smashed Margarito.

Manny Pacquiao:

I'm starting after the rematch between Pacquiao and Marquez in 2008. After the rematch in 2008, I think he takes the path he did, and that's move up to 135 and pick up an easy title against David Diaz. In 2008, I think Marquez does what he did, and that's move up and pick up another 135 title, and it's against a more legitimate 135 champion in Casamayor.
After the Diaz fight, I think Manny has a few options. Marquez, who is still following him around trying to get a 3rd fight, plus, it's more appealing again. Marquez got a number over him by beating a more legitimate 135 champion, and they are both champions. They could unify. Or he could do another unification bout with Juan Diaz. His other option could be a title defence against someone like a Katsidis. I think Pacquiao takes the Juan Diaz fight late 2008 and stops him late. While also later in that year, I think Marquez maybe defends his title against Katsidis and stops him.
Now 2009, and once again Pacquiao and Marquez are at top at the 135 division. They have cleaned out between them. Pacquiao has wins over David and Juan Diaz and unifying. While Marquez has stopped Casamayor and Katsidis. The next logical step is for a showdown between the both of them in 2009. They are the two best fighters in the division and have unfinished business. I think the fight happens in 2009.
I think mid 2009, they have the 3rd fight. The fight could go anyway, but I think Pacquiao wins it again. Though how different could things be, if Marquez were to win the 3rd, as that wouldn't be out of the question up until that point.
I think late 2009 or early 2010, Pacquiao moves up to 140 and fights Ricky Hatton, which would be his biggest career fight to date. He knocks Hatton out.
I think only this year in 2010, we would maybe see Pacquiao moving up or at least flirting with the idea to move to 147. I am not sure if Pacquiao sticks around 140 for fighters like Alexander and Bradley. I think he may make his move to 147 only now. Though I don't think a fight with Mayweather is at it's peak yet. It would be his first fight at 147, does he take a tune up at 147? A Judah? I have no idea how fast or slow he eases into the welter weight division, but I think he would be just starting to do it in 2010, or at least talk about it.
I think Pacquiao is still one good welter weight win away for Mayweather and Pacquiao to be demanded like it is today. That fight would be beggining to cook I think.

I think that Manny Pacquiao would be a big star now, especially after the Hatton fight. Though not quite like he is, but I think his work would be a lot more respected, though wouldn't look quite as impressive on paper.
But I think Pacquiao gets more good wins around 135-140 without Oscar. The move to welter would not have happened as quick.

I think so many interesting things could have happened, and that was only one scenario I came up with. But things like if Marquez was to get a win over Pacquiao. I just think without Oscar, we could have had a lot of things happen.



STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 9 2010, 09:24 PM) *
I think so many interesting things could have happened, and that was only one scenario I came up with. But things like if Marquez was to get a win over Pacquiao. I just think without Oscar, we could have had a lot of things happen.


What if the judges did their job & scored the JLC fight correctly giving Mayweather the 1 ib his L column? Would that make Floyd less fearfull of making quality fights actually happen rather than stuttering his way out of them?

I think it would & it ain't the juice that is not making this fight happen it is Floyd's blatant fear of losing & Arum's intent on milking Pac for all he can that is stopping this happening.

Regardless if neither had fought DLH then they would be gettinh single digit million $$ paydays IMO
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Dec 9 2010, 10:48 AM) *
What if the judges did their job & scored the JLC fight correctly giving Mayweather the 1 ib his L column? Would that make Floyd less fearfull of making quality fights actually happen rather than stuttering his way out of them?

I think it would & it ain't the juice that is not making this fight happen it is Floyd's blatant fear of losing & Arum's intent on milking Pac for all he can that is stopping this happening.

Regardless if neither had fought DLH then they would be gettinh single digit million $$ paydays IMO

Or he could have lost the fear of losing and went on to take more dangerous fights. I'd lean more towards that scenario since he gave JLC an immediate rematch.
Fitz
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Dec 9 2010, 09:48 PM) *
What if the judges did their job & scored the JLC fight correctly giving Mayweather the 1 ib his L column? Would that make Floyd less fearfull of making quality fights actually happen rather than stuttering his way out of them?

I think it would & it ain't the juice that is not making this fight happen it is Floyd's blatant fear of losing & Arum's intent on milking Pac for all he can that is stopping this happening.

Regardless if neither had fought DLH then they would be gettinh single digit million $$ paydays IMO


I'm more wondering what their path would have been like. How do you think Pacquiao's career would be. Who do you think he would have fought? What division do you think he would have been fighting at? Do you think he would be at 147 already?
What about Mayweather? Do you think he would have retired still and wasted that time? Or do you think he fights on, because he hasn't reached the stardom he did without DLH? Dancing with the Stars, WWE. Would he have gone without that? Fought more, or the same?
I to think they would still be stars making million dollar pay days. I am just picturing what type of fights we could have seen.
Snoop
In regards to Fitz's post though, the DLH fight gave Mayweather a bigger head than he probably should have and Pacquiao more legitimacy in his career than he's actually earned. Bottom line, we would have seen better fights had DLH not happened since they'd be forced to prove themselves in legitimate challenges rather than riding on a past-his-prime name of the Golden Boy.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 9 2010, 03:06 AM) *
I'm more wondering what their path would have been like. How do you think Pacquiao's career would be. Who do you think he would have fought? What division do you think he would have been fighting at? Do you think he would be at 147 already?
What about Mayweather? Do you think he would have retired still and wasted that time? Or do you think he fights on, because he hasn't reached the stardom he did without DLH? Dancing with the Stars, WWE. Would he have gone without that? Fought more, or the same?
I to think they would still be stars making million dollar pay days. I am just picturing what type of fights we could have seen.

Pac's career would be more legit. I think that you are right that Pac v JMM III would have happened and Pac would be fighting at 140 (spoiling for 147).

No, I do not think PBF would have retired and he would have been forced to fight more.

I think that the Pac v PBF fight would be happening (or would have already happened) if Pac ruled 140 and PBF wiped out 147 because it would be the big payday they both missed with ODLH.

In conclusion; it would be less of a Circus atmosphere. Both fighters owe ODLH bigtime, financially.
Method
Mayweather would still be fighting for "slave" wages in front of 8k people at the American Airlines arena.

I bet you this fucking much, had Oscar never bothered to give either of them the time of day, they sure as shit would have fought by now. Believe that.
Run and Gun Game Calls
same stuff differant day, I dont think he made a huge difference in their careers
Method
Damn fucking right it did.
D-MARV
LMAO... Oscar certainly made a difference in both careers! Beating the Baldomirs and David Diazs of the world don't make you a superstar.
Run and Gun Game Calls
If there was no Oscar then how would it make a differance, the fights he lined up could still be made if Oscar didnt exist
Method
But not the paydays
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 9 2010, 10:06 PM) *
I'm more wondering what their path would have been like. How do you think Pacquiao's career would be. Who do you think he would have fought? What division do you think he would have been fighting at? Do you think he would be at 147 already?
What about Mayweather? Do you think he would have retired still and wasted that time? Or do you think he fights on, because he hasn't reached the stardom he did without DLH? Dancing with the Stars, WWE. Would he have gone without that? Fought more, or the same?
I to think they would still be stars making million dollar pay days. I am just picturing what type of fights we could have seen.


Not sure who he would have fought but I think he would have stayed at 140 for a while & be looking at stepping up to 147 about now. I do think that some of these young cats people are raving about would have a loss though if they fought pac.

I doubt PBF would have retired & would have stayed in the 140-147 range.

They would still be making million $$ paydays as they were before DLH but they would not be getting 10's of millions to fight. They both owe Oscar nothing. Oscar is worse than both of them combined & he looked to reestablish his career by beating both these guys who were clearly much smaller than him. He got just what he deserved especially from Pac.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 10:06 PM) *
In regards to Fitz's post though, the DLH fight gave Mayweather a bigger head than he probably should have and Pacquiao more legitimacy in his career than he's actually earned.



What a load of horseshit. Pac's career was as legit as it gets pre DLH. It is actually a fantastic career especially from 126-130. What Pac's beatdown of DLH did was show he can stop a guy who had only been stopped once by a middleweight. That makes him exciting & a "giant killer".


QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 10:06 PM) *
Bottom line, we would have seen better fights had DLH not happened since they'd be forced to prove themselves in legitimate challenges rather than riding on a past-his-prime name of the Golden Boy.


Spot on.
Run and Gun Game Calls
a little off topic, but why dont we see more of don king promotions at the lower weights?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 12:59 PM) *
same stuff differant day, I dont think he made a huge difference in their careers


oscar made both of those guys stars run and gun... pacs star didnt really start shining till he beat hoya... same thing with floyd...
Method
He's fucking retarded, J-Luv, often making comments without putting much thought into what exactly it is he's writing.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 9 2010, 05:25 PM) *
He's fucking retarded, J-Luv, often making comments without putting much thought into what exactly it is he's writing.

LMAO.
Run and Gun Game Calls
aww method is really trolling after me today, i think he has a crush
Snoop
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Dec 9 2010, 10:28 PM) *
What a load of horseshit. Pac's career was as legit as it gets pre DLH. It is actually a fantastic career especially from 126-130. What Pac's beatdown of DLH did was show he can stop a guy who had only been stopped once by a middleweight. That makes him exciting & a "giant killer".

Exactly. He had a spectacular career between 126-130, but if he didn't have the DLH win under his belt, I doubt he could have had the leverage to demand catchweights and fighting for a title belt without actually being in the weight class.

And you're not really a "giant killer" when the "giant" you're killing sucks down to a weight he hasn't fought in for 7 years.
Run and Gun Game Calls
If Dlh didnt exist the money they made may not have been as big, in fact it more than likely wouldnt be. But I dont believe he made the fighters superstars. Maybe im wrong, been that way before, but there were boxing superstars before Dlh came along.
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 10 2010, 12:05 AM) *
If Dlh didnt exist the money they made may not have been as big, in fact it more than likely wouldnt be. But I dont believe he made the fighters superstars. Maybe im wrong, been that way before, but there were boxing superstars before Dlh came along.

It's not only money they gained from fighting DLH, it's the leverage. Beating DLH gave them public notoriety and more freedom to dictate their careers on their own terms, i.e. taking on easier fights and passing them on as bigger accomplishments than they actually were.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 9 2010, 07:46 PM) *
oscar made both of those guys stars run and gun... pacs star didnt really start shining till he beat hoya... same thing with floyd...



I disagree Jluv. I think Floyd hit the big stage when he beat judah. Even though Judah had already been knocked down a peg, Alot of people thought his speed would be enough to beat floyd. For the most part floyd completely dominated him. Thats when I think floyd hit the big stage. Also Floyd beating Mosley would have put him very near where Oscar did, because of the Name Mosley has in boxing.

As for Pacquio, he wouldnt be as big, but i still think he would be close. With wins over barrera, morales, cotto, margarito, and hatton Pac would have been a very familiar name. If fighting Oscar made manny a A+ fighter in the minds of the american public, he would now be a solid A- fight without Oscar, and if he beats Shane Mosley in april, although Mosley is done, it would put him very close to that A+ level in the eyes of the general public.

Oscar did help some, but he didnt make them as fighters.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 09:11 PM) *
It's not only money they gained from fighting DLH, it's the leverage. Beating DLH gave them public notoriety and more freedom to dictate their careers on their own terms, i.e. taking on easier fights and passing them on as bigger accomplishments than they actually were.



You dont think both having wins over mosley would do exactly the same thing?
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 10 2010, 12:13 AM) *
You dont think both having wins over mosley would do exactly the same thing?

I'm saying Pac might not even be in the position to negotiate a Mosley fight without the DLH win.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 09:14 PM) *
I'm saying Pac might not even be in the position to negotiate a Mosley fight without the DLH win.



I disagree, the margarito and cotto wins put him in that position IMO
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 10 2010, 12:15 AM) *
I disagree, the margarito and cotto wins put him in that position IMO

Dude, I'm saying he might not have been able to negotiate ANY of those fights without the DLH win. You have to consider his career before DLH, not after.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 09:17 PM) *
Dude, I'm saying he might not have been able to negotiate ANY of those fights without the DLH win. You have to consider his career before DLH, not after.



I hear ya, he would have just had to go a different route is all. I just think pac already had enough of a name to secure one of them, prob the cotto fight. Once he beat cotto it would have started to snowball.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 06:13 PM) *
You dont think both having wins over mosley would do exactly the same thing?


LOL the Mosley brand can't touch the Golden Boy.

Oscar made Mayweather a PPV attraction and brought Pacquiao to the attention of the public. They might have been big in boxing without Oscar but Oscar is why these cats are getting good PPV buys and making so much money. If a Oscar fight didn't mean much then Mayweather wouldn't have wanted it so badly.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 9 2010, 10:27 PM) *
LOL the Mosley brand can't touch the Golden Boy.

Oscar made Mayweather a PPV attraction and brought Pacquiao to the attention of the public. They might have been big in boxing without Oscar but Oscar is why these cats are getting good PPV buys and making so much money. If a Oscar fight didn't mean much then Mayweather wouldn't have wanted it so badly.



talking two differant things gravy. The Oscar fight for both was huge, and a huge bump to their careers money wise, but as far as public recognition im not sure it did as much. Mosley was a flashy enough fighter to be a star in his own right. So to was tito trinidad, and without Oscar i think Mosley and trinidad fight each other. the landscape would look differant, but the stars would still be stars without him
Snoop
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 10 2010, 12:22 AM) *
I hear ya, he would have just had to go a different route is all. I just think pac already had enough of a name to secure one of them, prob the cotto fight. Once he beat cotto it would have started to snowball.

I dunno. It's definitely plausible that Pacquiao fights Hatton without DLH, but would that win give him enough star power to fight Cotto? Possibly. But I DEFINITELY don't believe that Cotto, or any other opponent after DLH, would be as willing to bend over and take these catchweights up the ass if Pac didn't have the leverage he gained from the DLH win.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Snoop @ Dec 9 2010, 10:43 PM) *
I dunno. It's definitely plausible that Pacquiao fights Hatton without DLH, but would that win give him enough star power to fight Cotto? Possibly. But I DEFINITELY don't believe that Cotto, or any other opponent after DLH, would be as willing to bend over and take these catchweights up the ass if Pac didn't have the leverage he gained from the DLH win.



You might be right on the catch weights snoop, hell if pac didnt have leverage for the weights he still wins those fights.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 06:39 PM) *
talking two differant things gravy. The Oscar fight for both was huge, and a huge bump to their careers money wise, but as far as public recognition im not sure it did as much. Mosley was a flashy enough fighter to be a star in his own right. So to was tito trinidad, and without Oscar i think Mosley and trinidad fight each other. the landscape would look differant, but the stars would still be stars without him


Public recognition, are we talking about the same Oscar that generated the most PPV money in the history of the sport? How were they going to get so much mainstream attention so easily without Oscar? Their careers got bumped money wise because Oscar guarantees public recognition, he's the Golden Boy.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 9 2010, 11:02 PM) *
Public recognition, are we talking about the same Oscar that generated the most PPV money in the history of the sport? How were they going to get so much mainstream attention so easily without Oscar? Their careers got bumped money wise because Oscar guarantees public recognition, he's the Golden Boy.



i guess where we are disagreeing is after the Oscar fight im not sure the carry over revenue was so much higher because of oscar. like I said, I could be wrong, but boxing goes on with or without Oscar, and someone else, maybe Mosley would be the golden boy if Oscar never came along.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 07:08 PM) *
i guess where we are disagreeing is after the Oscar fight im not sure the carry over revenue was so much higher because of oscar. like I said, I could be wrong, but boxing goes on with or without Oscar, and someone else, maybe Mosley would be the golden boy if Oscar never came along.


It's nothing new to boxing, fighters have always made a name off of their fight with the aging veteran on his way out of the sport. It's the passing of the torch. I don't even know why you're trying to make a discussion about if Oscar never came around either because Oscar was around and was very successful while enjoying lots of mainstream attention.

The Oscar fight raised the profile of Mayweather and allowed him to start making the big money and headline very successful PPVs, same with Pacquiao.

Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 10 2010, 12:16 AM) *
It's nothing new to boxing, fighters have always made a name off of their fight with the aging veteran on his way out of the sport. It's the passing of the torch. I don't even know why you're trying to make a discussion about if Oscar never came around either because Oscar was around and was very successful while enjoying lots of mainstream attention.

The Oscar fight raised the profile of Mayweather and allowed him to start making the big money and headline very successful PPVs, same with Pacquiao.



Actually Fitz started this discussion, not I, lol But really Floyd has only fought Mosley with the high PPV numbers to judge how well he does ppv wise. I think the mosley name had alot more to do with those numbers than just floyd beating oscar.

lets see floyd fight margarito, or clotty and see if his name opponent is the reason he has drawn high ppv numbers, or if it is because he is a legit ppv star, im still not convinced.
Fitz
Yes I created the thread, but I was trying to be creative, maybe get some people to talk about fights that may have happened and such. Maybe predict how the career would be like until now. I know Oscar made the stars, and the thread isn't about saying how that is wrong and they don't deserve it.
It's just a different thread, but that's too much for some people, lol.

I will know for next time now.
Snoop
I actually thought the thread was pretty damn interesting. But yeah, we definitely didn't stay on course.

laugh.gif
Run and Gun Game Calls
lol well i threw out the olive branch in terms of a Mosley v/s Trinidad fight that would have been a classic
gravytrain
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 08:22 PM) *
Actually Fitz started this discussion, not I, lol But really Floyd has only fought Mosley with the high PPV numbers to judge how well he does ppv wise. I think the mosley name had alot more to do with those numbers than just floyd beating oscar.

lets see floyd fight margarito, or clotty and see if his name opponent is the reason he has drawn high ppv numbers, or if it is because he is a legit ppv star, im still not convinced.


Mayweather came back and did 1 million buys with Marquez. I think the most buys Marquez has ever been involved with has been 200,000. Was it his opponent then?

Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 10 2010, 02:06 AM) *
Mayweather came back and did 1 million buys with Marquez. I think the most buys Marquez has ever been involved with has been 200,000. Was it his opponent then?



Wow that fight did 1m buys? Suprises me
KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN
Very interesting thread. It's hard to say neither guy rises to super-stardom just because they don't fight Oscar. The thing is, HBO was starting to really push Pacquiao around that Marquez rematch. He had been featured on PPV in his previous three fights prior to the Marquez rematch. It's clear they were pushing him to be a star, much like they did with Cotto. What he have risen to the level of fame without Oscar? Probably not, but HBO was pushing him and truly HBO controls a lot of who becomes stars. With enough push, there's a possibility he gets to this level still. I think they would have taken another fight at lightweight if Oscar wasn't there. Either a 3rd fight with Marquez or Juan Diaz. Diaz was coming off an impressive victory over Katsidis in Sept. 2008, and Pac would have looked good against him. I see the rest of his career playing out as is, with a lot of HBO backing and 24/7 shows. If he was interested in jumping up in weight so early, the Margarito fight may have been there in early 2009. I doubt Freddie would have let that happen though.

I don't think Mayweather gets the PPV numbers he does without 24/7 and ODLH. The Judah fight only did 325K buys I believe. People were leaving the Baldomir fight towards the end of the fight, and HBO hated it. Without DLH, I don't think he gets the backing to be a star. With his skill and slickness, fighters would avoid him. Would Hatton have really fought Mayweather at a weight he'd fought at only one time, if he didn't do huge numbers with DLH? Mosley wouldn't have fought Mayweather if he wasn't such a huge draw. For God's sake, he pulled all the excuses to not fight him in 2006. Pacquiao and Cotto wouldn't have fought him either. He would have been stuck fighting Margarito or Paul Williams in 2008. Now those are solid fights, but they don't do the huge number he's doing now. Mayweather wouldn't be as huge a star and would be highly avoided without 24/7 and HBO's backing.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 9 2010, 05:12 PM) *
I disagree Jluv. I think Floyd hit the big stage when he beat judah. Even though Judah had already been knocked down a peg, Alot of people thought his speed would be enough to beat floyd. For the most part floyd completely dominated him. Thats when I think floyd hit the big stage. Also Floyd beating Mosley would have put him very near where Oscar did, because of the Name Mosley has in boxing.

As for Pacquio, he wouldnt be as big, but i still think he would be close. With wins over barrera, morales, cotto, margarito, and hatton Pac would have been a very familiar name. If fighting Oscar made manny a A+ fighter in the minds of the american public, he would now be a solid A- fight without Oscar, and if he beats Shane Mosley in april, although Mosley is done, it would put him very close to that A+ level in the eyes of the general public.

Oscar did help some, but he didnt make them as fighters.


how can you say some of this stuff?... look... oscar was the media darling... the house hold name that every body and their grand ma knew.. for a fighter to beat him on the world wide stage he represented was a one way ticket to elite class status... it worked for lil floyd and pac and to some extent for shane tho shane never reaped the benefits of floyd and pac financially what his wins should have done for him and id figure it was because of those losses to forrest and the comp he fought after beating oscar the first time leading into the forrest fight... but that aside... oscars nickname "golden boy"... became more than a nickname... like sugar ray leonard once said, im sure there are heavyweights that wished they could shrink down to fight him... cuzz a fight with him got you noticed... you beat him, and you where an instant star... same thing with oscar.... and judah... man judah damn sure didnt make mayweathers career... matter of fact most true boxing fans felt like judah shit his chance away by going out and losing to baldo... judah didnt deserve that fight... but again who promoted it?... lol... bob fuckin arum... lol... and floyd beating mosley... man that fight should have happened ten years ago... mosley is not the fighter he was at lightweight... and floyd as good as he is is not the assasin he was at jr lightweight and lightweight... mosley didnt do nothing for floyd but silence a few critics that didnt think he would take that fight... im glad i was able to see that fight eventually but im still and all ways will be sour on it cuzz i know when that was supposed to go down and it was when they where older and at welterweight... ill always feel cheated on that one... lol.. but to make a long story short... oscar did more than "help" their careers... he made them the stars they are today... no ifs, ans or buts about this convo...
Snoop
QUOTE (KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN @ Dec 10 2010, 05:33 AM) *
Very interesting thread. It's hard to say neither guy rises to super-stardom just because they don't fight Oscar. The thing is, HBO was starting to really push Pacquiao around that Marquez rematch. He had been featured on PPV in his previous three fights prior to the Marquez rematch. It's clear they were pushing him to be a star, much like they did with Cotto. What he have risen to the level of fame without Oscar? Probably not, but HBO was pushing him and truly HBO controls a lot of who becomes stars. With enough push, there's a possibility he gets to this level still. I think they would have taken another fight at lightweight if Oscar wasn't there. Either a 3rd fight with Marquez or Juan Diaz. Diaz was coming off an impressive victory over Katsidis in Sept. 2008, and Pac would have looked good against him. I see the rest of his career playing out as is, with a lot of HBO backing and 24/7 shows. If he was interested in jumping up in weight so early, the Margarito fight may have been there in early 2009. I doubt Freddie would have let that happen though.

I don't think Mayweather gets the PPV numbers he does without 24/7 and ODLH. The Judah fight only did 325K buys I believe. People were leaving the Baldomir fight towards the end of the fight, and HBO hated it. Without DLH, I don't think he gets the backing to be a star. With his skill and slickness, fighters would avoid him. Would Hatton have really fought Mayweather at a weight he'd fought at only one time, if he didn't do huge numbers with DLH? Mosley wouldn't have fought Mayweather if he wasn't such a huge draw. For God's sake, he pulled all the excuses to not fight him in 2006. Pacquiao and Cotto wouldn't have fought him either. He would have been stuck fighting Margarito or Paul Williams in 2008. Now those are solid fights, but they don't do the huge number he's doing now. Mayweather wouldn't be as huge a star and would be highly avoided without 24/7 and HBO's backing.

Great post.

Like I said before, I think both guys could conceivably reach the stardom they currently have; it just would have taken a whole lot more without the Golden Boy.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN @ Dec 9 2010, 11:33 PM) *
Very interesting thread. It's hard to say neither guy rises to super-stardom just because they don't fight Oscar. The thing is, HBO was starting to really push Pacquiao around that Marquez rematch. He had been featured on PPV in his previous three fights prior to the Marquez rematch. It's clear they were pushing him to be a star, much like they did with Cotto. What he have risen to the level of fame without Oscar? Probably not, but HBO was pushing him and truly HBO controls a lot of who becomes stars. With enough push, there's a possibility he gets to this level still. I think they would have taken another fight at lightweight if Oscar wasn't there. Either a 3rd fight with Marquez or Juan Diaz. Diaz was coming off an impressive victory over Katsidis in Sept. 2008, and Pac would have looked good against him. I see the rest of his career playing out as is, with a lot of HBO backing and 24/7 shows. If he was interested in jumping up in weight so early, the Margarito fight may have been there in early 2009. I doubt Freddie would have let that happen though.

I don't think Mayweather gets the PPV numbers he does without 24/7 and ODLH. The Judah fight only did 325K buys I believe. People were leaving the Baldomir fight towards the end of the fight, and HBO hated it. Without DLH, I don't think he gets the backing to be a star. With his skill and slickness, fighters would avoid him. Would Hatton have really fought Mayweather at a weight he'd fought at only one time, if he didn't do huge numbers with DLH? Mosley wouldn't have fought Mayweather if he wasn't such a huge draw. For God's sake, he pulled all the excuses to not fight him in 2006. Pacquiao and Cotto wouldn't have fought him either. He would have been stuck fighting Margarito or Paul Williams in 2008. Now those are solid fights, but they don't do the huge number he's doing now. Mayweather wouldn't be as huge a star and would be highly avoided without 24/7 and HBO's backing.


i like your breakdowns... i agree with most of it except arum would be forced to take more chances with pac... we would have seen him in with more threatening opp at this point in his career had it not been for the oscar fight... to the joe shmo public that orders these fights to have fight parties etc... they dont know the difference... they dont know that oscar hadnt fought 147 in 7 years prior and was hooked to an i.v an hour before the fight to help rehydrate... to them manny won a fight not many picked him to win over "OSCAR DELA HOYA"... then in comes running the phillipino fans that help build his legend even higher because they are proud of their countryman and what he represents... the media shows this AND THESE THINGS HELP A STAR SHINE EVEN BRIGHTER... With this stuff being said i dont think either fighter becomes the household name they are today without the dela hoya wins.... i will hedge a little and say this tho... manny would have the better chance of the two to not need an oscar fight because of his fighting style number 1 and number 2 the frequents in which he fights for a fighter of his magnitude.... without oscar i see llil floyd being in the same boat as a pernell whitaker... the best fighter in the world yet flying way under the radar for most of his career... he'd be too dangerous for little reward
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 10 2010, 10:39 PM) *
.... i will hedge a little and say this tho... manny would have the better chance of the two to not need an oscar fight because of his fighting style number 1 and number 2 the frequents in which he fights for a fighter of his magnitude.... without oscar i see llil floyd being in the same boat as a pernell whitaker... the best fighter in the world yet flying way under the radar for most of his career... he'd be too dangerous for little reward


I agree with that. Pac is probably the most exciting boxer on the planet & Floyd is probably the most skilled fighter out of all the high profile figters out there.
Method
Stevenski, SNoop and JLUV pretty much sum it up for me.

I dont even think its for dispute that fights with Oscar helped their careers in ways likely unattainable without.
KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN
JLuv, I disagree Arum would have taken more chances with Pac. It was clear after the Marquez fight, he wasn't interested in taking many risks. Hell, in late 2007 Pacquiao fought a rematch with Barrera, after Barrera was beaten by Marquez. When he moved up to lightweight, he took on the weakest titlist in David Diaz. He didn't fight Juan Diaz, Casamayor, or even Julio Diaz. Even the Oscar move was pure strategy that worked out perfect. If he didn't fight Oscar, he wouldn't have taken an extremely risky fight. I guess you could count the Marquez fight, but that would have happened anyway. Still, HBO was really getting behind Pacquiao and they would have looked for big names. I think Pacquiao would have fought Judah at 140 in the middle of 2008, instead of Clottey. That would have been a big fight, and a good comparision with other fighters (Cotto, Mayweather). Arum would have looked to make that money in the easiest way.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN @ Dec 10 2010, 11:00 AM) *
JLuv, I disagree Arum would have taken more chances with Pac. It was clear after the Marquez fight, he wasn't interested in taking many risks. Hell, in late 2007 Pacquiao fought a rematch with Barrera, after Barrera was beaten by Marquez. When he moved up to lightweight, he took on the weakest titlist in David Diaz. He didn't fight Juan Diaz, Casamayor, or even Julio Diaz. Even the Oscar move was pure strategy that worked out perfect. If he didn't fight Oscar, he wouldn't have taken an extremely risky fight. I guess you could count the Marquez fight, but that would have happened anyway. Still, HBO was really getting behind Pacquiao and they would have looked for big names. I think Pacquiao would have fought Judah at 140 in the middle of 2008, instead of Clottey. That would have been a big fight, and a good comparision with other fighters (Cotto, Mayweather). Arum would have looked to make that money in the easiest way.


without the win over oscar pac wouldnt be able to fight the level of fighters he's been fighting and generate the kind of money he has been generating... pac became one of the money by fighting and beating one of the money men, in his case it was hoya... that baton was basically passed from hoya to manny pac... pac needed that win to cross over... but i will say this, in retrospect, boxing would have been a better place if hoya never fought those two... its my opinion they both would have been forced to take more dangerous fights in search for the exposure they where seeking... for both hoya was that instant winning lotto ticket to stardom... again more so for pac then lil floyd... im not so sure floyd could pack 50,000 plus into cowboy stadium but maybe im selling him short... if you like action fights... you'll love pac... if you like a display of boxing skill and technique from a master boxer, you'll love mayweather... that might be the reason floyds not leaving vegas...
BrutalBodyShots
What do you guys think Mayweather's best career win is?

The only time he's beaten an undefeated fighter in his prime was against Corrales, which will be 10 years ago next month.

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