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gravytrain
QUOTE (mexi-cutioner @ Dec 19 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Berto better than Pascal?? I think that's a little bit of a stretch...

True they're both young champions and raw?? yes. Overrated?? likely. But you just have to look at their resumes to see who's better. Pascal's been fighting top guys in and around his weightclass for the last couple years, losing a close decision in england to Carl Froch (the scorecards did not do the fight justice), Adrian Diaconu, Chad Dawson and now Bernard Hopkins. You gotta remember that Dawson was THE fighter sitting atop the throne at the light heavy division and highly ranked in most ppl's p4p rankings b4 he fought Pascal and Pascal was able to expose him. Even though Dawson was coming on late he still won that fight no doubt. While I did have Hopkins winning by 1 or 2 points by the end, Hopkins is a fucking animal man. the dude's 46 and looks like hes 26 out there he's so methodical and mentally strong the dude's in a league of his own. But the hopkins fight jsut proves to show that Pascal has fought and done fairly well against the top competition he's faced whereas Berto has even yet to get a taste of the top dudes in his division


Lol I don't think losing 9-3 or 8-4 to an old man is doing fairly well. to be honest even his legit knock down was still a close round and it could be argued it was a 10-9 round. without the knockdowns i think Pascal might have won 2 rounds on my card, that's not doing fairly well. even with both knockdowns I'd Hopkins ahead 115-111 and that's fair because Pascal really didn't even do enough to take the 12th when Hopkins opened up and wanted to fight.

Pascal got schooled, fooled, and ruled.
kidbazooka1
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 19 2010, 03:35 AM) *
What are you talking about could have done more? He dominated just about every round other than the a few with the knock down. I also don't agree about you suggesting he waited too much. Hopkins took over from about the 4th-5th.
What cost him were the 2 flash knock downs. Just like they cost Marquez against Pacquiao. It was unlucky for the flash knock downs, but I don't agree with your assessment of Hopkins waiting too much and not doing enough.


And i don't agree with yours.

Hopkins could have done more yes i also had him winning but he knew where he was fighting and like i stated already he should have and could have done more to win some rds more convincingly.
gravytrain
QUOTE (kidbazooka1 @ Dec 19 2010, 04:50 PM) *
And i don't agree with yours.

Hopkins could have done more yes i also had him winning but he knew where he was fighting and like i stated already he should have and could have done more to win some rds more convincingly.


Dude, even without the 1st knockdown it'd have been a narrow SD for him at most. Only Morrow had a legitimate card. What was he supposed to do? Was he supposed to dominate 2:40 seconds out of every round rather than 1:50 or 2:00? lol.wouldn't be surprised if Paquette gave Pascal a round down the stretch if it wasn't looking good.
JLUVBABY
ok... again how anybody can take away from that type of performance from a 45 yr old fighter is beyond me... i mean he is 45 for crying out loud... a young strong champion is supposed to beat a 45 year old fighter convincingly... thats just the life cycle of a fighter... look at most of the guys considered greats... they where getting battered around the ring most of them by time they where 38 or late 30's... thing is hopkins is proving he is not just a fighter he is a great fighter... that performance would be given rave revues if he was a 26 yr old getting off 2 knockdowns to come back and do what he did to pascal... hopkins is 40 fuckin 5 and was able to for the most part dismantle the guy that had just beaten p4p entrant chad dawson... i think its too late to call pascal over rated... he wasnt over rated the night he beat the hell out of dawson... hopkins is just that good...
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 19 2010, 06:12 PM) *
ok... again how anybody can take away from that type of performance from a 45 yr old fighter is beyond me... i mean he is 45 for crying out loud... a young strong champion is supposed to beat a 45 year old fighter convincingly... thats just the life cycle of a fighter... look at most of the guys considered greats... they where getting battered around the ring most of them by time they where 38 or late 30's... thing is hopkins is proving he is not just a fighter he is a great fighter... that performance would be given rave revues if he was a 26 yr old getting off 2 knockdowns to come back and do what he did to pascal... hopkins is 40 fuckin 5 and was able to for the most part dismantle the guy that had just beaten p4p entrant chad dawson... i think its too late to call pascal over rated... he wasnt over rated the night he beat the hell out of dawson... hopkins is just that good...


Hard to say he's overrated when taking into consideration he's a LHW, he was easily the top dude at that division. The only person to really fight for supremacy would have been Cloud since he already beat Dawson.
caneman
Just a good read!
Jack 1000
QUOTE (KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN @ Dec 19 2010, 01:52 AM) *
Wow, what a disappointing decision. I just watched the replay, and I thought Hopkins won clearly 114-112. The only round that I thought Pascal won after 3 was 10, and even that was extremely close. I gave Pascal the first 3 rounds, but without those knockdowns, he may not even win those rounds. Hopkins fought great, and I'm sure he'll fight on. I just can't believe he is performing at such a high level for a 46 year old man. That is unbelievable, and more power to him. He took it too Pascal tonight and earned that victory.


I had the same score of 114-112 Hopkins,

I have seen worse decisions though. You and I are in the minority in agreeing that Pascal won a very close 10th round. I reluctantly scored round 1 as a 10-8, because it was a clean shot that put Hopkins down, the same in the 3rd. Replays showed this. The Belgium judge scored the 10th round even. Some gave Pascal the 12th. Totally disagree. I thought Hopkins won the 12th more convincingly than people saying he won the 10th.

Jack
kidbazooka1
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 19 2010, 08:30 PM) *
I more don't understand the logic behind what you are saying Bazooka. You have sat back in the past and claimed Marquez was robbed against Pacquiao, then say regarding this fight that it's Hopkins fault for not doing enough. I just don't understand the logic, lol.
Hopkins was more clear than Marquez, yet you sing different tunes. But it's natural to have a more emotional attachment to your own (Mexican).


Hahahahaha take it easy Fitz.

Even the boradcasters thought some rds were close and difficult to score. I also believe Hopkins won but some rds were not dominate like some of you are makeing it out to be. Hopkins won yes but he far from dominated the fight or most of the rds.

Even Tarver who was on Hopkins nuts all night thought Pascal won the fight i don't agree with him but that just goes to show you it was a close fight.
gravytrain
QUOTE (kidbazooka1 @ Dec 20 2010, 12:41 AM) *
Hahahahaha take it easy Fitz.

Even the boradcasters thought some rds were close and difficult to score. I also believe Hopkins won but some rds were not dominate like some of you are makeing it out to be. Hopkins won yes but he far from dominated the fight or most of the rds.

Even Tarver who was on Hopkins nuts all night thought Pascal won the fight i don't agree with him but that just goes to show you it was a close fight.


what do you consider dominating? Hopkins threw more, landed the clean shots, and showed ring generalship. I mean at Pascal's best he'd come in and land like a 2 punch combo then Hopkins would land 2-3 on the inside then go back to controlling the fight.

throwing more punches, controlling the fight, and landing scoring blows.. sounds like dominating to me.
ROLL DEEP
Just watched the fight.

Thought Hopkins won by 2 or 3 points EASILY.



Hopkins, althogh obvioulsy had a rough couple of rounds with the KD's, pretty much looked in control, forced his gameplan onto Pascal, landed the better combinations, pushed him around the ring and generally looked like the better, stronger and more effective fighter for the majortiy of the fight.

Other than the KD's, Pascal didn't really do an awful lot. He hit Hopkins with a nice uppercut towards the end and the odd left hook but there was no consistancy. It's not like he was boxing well on the back foot and picking Hopkins off. He was moving round in circles trying to avoid Hopkins' pressure and lunging in occassionaly. For every shot Pascal landed, Hopkins landed 2 body shots.

Bernards' body hooks really made Pascal think twice about staying, hence the running around the ring. Someone by the camera actually said 'ha, looking at him running off in his home town!'


Body language told it all at the end. Pascal looked dejected, unhappy and even when he had the belt around his waist, looked pissed off with his performance.


I feel sorry for Hopkins - he definatly won that.
BrutalBodyShots
With regard to scoring a round with a knockdown 10-9 or 10-8...

I'm not sure what the official rules state, but generally speaking you always hear Ledderman say "and ya gotta give the guy an extra point for the knockdown..."

I think if you have a round where a guy is DOMINATING (to the point where you could consider scoring it 10-8 without a knockdown) and he gets knocked down flash, then you can consider scoring it a 10-9.

If it's just a regular round though, where the guy that gets knocked down is winning it in normal fashion, you gotta go with Ledderman's rationale and score it 10-8.


The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 20 2010, 05:24 AM) *
With regard to scoring a round with a knockdown 10-9 or 10-8...

I'm not sure what the official rules state, but generally speaking you always hear Ledderman say "and ya gotta give the guy an extra point for the knockdown..."

I think if you have a round where a guy is DOMINATING (to the point where you could consider scoring it 10-8 without a knockdown) and he gets knocked down flash, then you can consider scoring it a 10-9.

If it's just a regular round though, where the guy that gets knocked down is winning it in normal fashion, you gotta go with Ledderman's rationale and score it 10-8.


Even if you did though Pascal still didn't win the fight.
streetlion1
Personally I scored round 1 10-9 for Pascal....I thought Hopkins won the round if not for the knockdown thats why I scored it that way. It looked more like Hopkins was off balance and the shot was at the back of the head.

10-9 or 10-8 doesnt matter....Hopkins won the fight either way. I expected Pascal to come out and be the busier fighter and jump on Bernard but Pascal came out scared and offered little in return. It was a dominate performance by B-Hop!
Lil-lightsout
I have yet to hear one person that thinks Pascal won. Thats what makes this a robbery IMO. Sure it was kind of closer due to the knockdowns, but Hopkins clearly won too many of the rounds to get screwed with a draw. I also do not think Bernard needed to do anything different in there, Pascal is the one who was constantly backing up doing nothing. The rounds were just pretty easy to score.


As far as Tarver, I thought he did okay commentating during the fight. Afterwards when he scored it for Pascal was BS. I know he was not scoring that fight along the way.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Dec 20 2010, 12:09 PM) *
I have yet to hear one person that thinks Pascal won. Thats what makes this a robbery IMO. Sure it was kind of closer due to the knockdowns, but Hopkins clearly won too many of the rounds to get screwed with a draw. I also do not think Bernard needed to do anything different in there, Pascal is the one who was constantly backing up doing nothing. The rounds were just pretty easy to score.


As far as Tarver, I thought he did okay commentating during the fight. Afterwards when he scored it for Pascal was BS. I know he was not scoring that fight along the way.

There was NO WAY possible that Tarver was scoring that fight. The fact that he gave Pascal Pascal a 114 score means that he found 7 rounds that Pascal won (which would be horrible).

You bring up a good point though... The fact that no one (outside of Tarver, LOL) could give this fight to Pascal proves that this was a robbery. I feel bad for Hops. He won't be able to get a rematch until Pascal fights Dawson again then he might be able to get the winner. That could take up to a year and Hopkins would be 47 years old.
blackbelt2003
I had the fight 113-113.

I know that goes against the grain of what most of you saw, but I'm just calling it how I see it.

I had Pascal winning four of the first five, Hopkins six of the last seven. That makes it 7 rounds to 5, but with the two knockdowns that's even.


I think the problem is that Pascal won his rounds by the skin of his teeth, either by landing one or two more shots in a slow round or by those lucky knockdowns, whereas Hopkins won his in a dominating fashion.

That means that Hopkins was clearly the better fighter and, viewing the fight as a whole, laid a beating on Pascal.


But if you take it round by round, for me it was close.


In a rematch, Hopkins stomps him with big, black boots. And I hope that happens.




Black

Jack 1000
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 20 2010, 04:24 AM) *
With regard to scoring a round with a knockdown 10-9 or 10-8...

I'm not sure what the official rules state, but generally speaking you always hear Ledderman say "and ya gotta give the guy an extra point for the knockdown..."

I think if you have a round where a guy is DOMINATING (to the point where you could consider scoring it 10-8 without a knockdown) and he gets knocked down flash, then you can consider scoring it a 10-9.

If it's just a regular round though, where the guy that gets knocked down is winning it in normal fashion, you gotta go with Ledderman's rationale and score it 10-8.


Yea. This fight has generated a lot of good discussion about the scoring of knockdowns, 10-8 rounds, and even rounds.

Some judges will evaluate the strength of the knockdown on calling it 10-8 or 10-9. There might be one or two instances where fighter A beats the shit out of fighter B for 2:45 of a round, and fighter B scores a knockdown, counted as such in the last 15 seconds. I have seen judges score rounds like that as 10-10, and some will do 10-9 for the guy that scored the knockdown, and some will do a 10-8 because they think 10-8 is just the traditional thing to do.

When Douglas plastered Tyson all over the ring in round 8, but Tyson scored that knockdown in the last 15 seconds or so, all three judges gave that round to Tyson as a 10-8. I gave it to Tyson as a 10-9, because I have to give credit for the knockdown, BUT a 10-8 for Tyson nullifies all of Douglas' dominance up to the point of the knockdown. A judge could even say, well Douglas was so good for almost all the round having Tyson in trouble, but I have to count the knockdown that Tyson scored, so make it 10-10, (It's rate, but I remember a Kosta Tszyu fight that was given a 10-10 round with a knockdown. Don't recall the specifics.)

But I remember that Jerry Roth had an even second round 10-10 in Moorer-Holyfield I That action prevented Holyfield from getting a draw or maybe even winning.

The 10-point must system remains an arbitrary tool for knockdowns suffered by the losing fighter.

Jack
Jack 1000
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Dec 20 2010, 12:10 PM) *
I had the fight 113-113.

I know that goes against the grain of what most of you saw, but I'm just calling it how I see it.

I had Pascal winning four of the first five, Hopkins six of the last seven. That makes it 7 rounds to 5, but with the two knockdowns that's even.


I think the problem is that Pascal won his rounds by the skin of his teeth, either by landing one or two more shots in a slow round or by those lucky knockdowns, whereas Hopkins won his in a dominating fashion.

That means that Hopkins was clearly the better fighter and, viewing the fight as a whole, laid a beating on Pascal.


But if you take it round by round, for me it was close.


In a rematch, Hopkins stomps him with big, black boots. And I hope that happens.




Black


Black,

How did you score Round 10? Other boards are in an uproar saying that Hopkins dominated that round, and the one judge should not have scored it 10-10. I thought that the round was very close and Pascal BARELY won it. But it was the scoring of that round as an even round that Hopkins people are pissed about. Kyle, earlier in this thread, also gave the round to Pacal (barely.)

Jack
JLUVBABY
in a fight a knockdown doesnt all of a sudden make the round 10-8... in my opinion its objective and most of the time it will but if the fighter that does the knocking down is getting his hat served to him them happens to clip his opponent does that make that round 10-8?... again its objective and it depends on how much the scorer feels the kd damages the other fighter...
gravytrain
QUOTE (streetlion1 @ Dec 20 2010, 10:41 AM) *
Personally I scored round 1 10-9 for Pascal....I thought Hopkins won the round if not for the knockdown thats why I scored it that way. It looked more like Hopkins was off balance and the shot was at the back of the head.

10-9 or 10-8 doesnt matter....Hopkins won the fight either way. I expected Pascal to come out and be the busier fighter and jump on Bernard but Pascal came out scared and offered little in return. It was a dominate performance by B-Hop!


I gave Pascal 2 10-8 rounds and with the other round i felt he won, the 2nd round 10-9, he still lost 115-111 because the last round i'd him winning was the 3rd.
gravytrain
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Dec 20 2010, 12:19 PM) *
There was NO WAY possible that Tarver was scoring that fight. The fact that he gave Pascal Pascal a 114 score means that he found 7 rounds that Pascal won (which would be horrible).

You bring up a good point though... The fact that no one (outside of Tarver, LOL) could give this fight to Pascal proves that this was a robbery. I feel bad for Hops. He won't be able to get a rematch until Pascal fights Dawson again then he might be able to get the winner. That could take up to a year and Hopkins would be 47 years old.


that's probably why they want Dawson first.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 20 2010, 02:56 PM) *
I thought Hopkins wasn't interested in a rematch anyways.


if he can't get the officials he wants then I'd avoid it if I were him. go up and get robbed twice? no thanks. if i couldn't get an immediate rematch I'd move on or hang them up, no point in fighting him again while 48.
TRU
I just wonder what the hell that judge who gave it to Hopkins was looking at when he scored the 9th round for Jean Pascal.

That was one of the clearest most dominant rounds for Bernard and he gave it to Pascal... weird shit.
BrutalBodyShots
I think what people need to understand is that whatever call the referee makes on a knockdown, or lack of, is the OFFICIAL call that needs to be considered for scoring purposes.

You can't say "I don't think it was a real knock down, so I'm not going to count it." Judges watching may not think it was a "real" knockdown, but if the referee says it is they score accordingly.

Think of it the other way around. Say you're watching a fight and a guy officially SHOULD have a knockdown called on him, but the referee rules it a slip. Do you ever see a judge scoring that round a 10-8 round because in their view it WAS a knockdown? Of course not. I think the 4th round of Mayweather-Judah is an example of this, where Mayweather's glove did touch the canvas after taking a shot from Judah... but it wasn't ruled an official knockdown and hence the judges didn't score any 10-8's and as far as I know no one else scoring the fight gave that round to Judah 10-8.

I dunno I just think a knockdown is a knockdown... and relatively speaking they are uncommon, as in there are far more rounds completed without knockdowns than with knockdowns - so they should be counted for scoring purposes. I think reading into them too much sort of takes away from their significance. I mean Peter's weak jab catching an off balance Toney in the 2nd round of their rematch and knocking him down in terms of scoring should be just as significant as Marquez getting knocked down and hurt by Katsidis in their fight. Just my opinion, of course.

gravytrain
yeah, if a ref rules it a knockdown the judges have to score it as a knockdown. the only choice they've is whether it's a 10-8 or 18-9 round.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Dec 20 2010, 01:37 PM) *
When Douglas plastered Tyson all over the ring in round 8, but Tyson scored that knockdown in the last 15 seconds or so, all three judges gave that round to Tyson as a 10-8. I gave it to Tyson as a 10-9, because I have to give credit for the knockdown, BUT a 10-8 for Tyson nullifies all of Douglas' dominance up to the point of the knockdown. A judge could even say, well Douglas was so good for almost all the round having Tyson in trouble, but I have to count the knockdown that Tyson scored, so make it 10-10

Jack


Jack, I disagree with your assessment of Tyson-Douglas round 8. In my view, the round was either even or slightly in Tyson's favor for the first 2 minutes. In the final minute Douglas does great work and lands a good 7 solid jabs and several right hands behind them. This work in my view would certainly seal it as a Douglas round. Tyson wasn't seriously hurt or in any danger of going down in that final minute, he just was outworked and caught a handful of good shots. Anyway, the single uppercut that Tyson lands which drops Douglas in my view hurt Douglas pretty bad (many feel without the long count he wouldn't have made it up in time) and MORE than beats the work Douglas had done in the minute prior to that.

A clear 10-8 round for Tyson, IMO.

Method
As Steve Kim said, Bernard was winning the majority of BOTH rnd 1 AND 3 prior to the KD, whats more, he won after getting up to finish. Both could have been arguable 10-9. The first fucking round was to the back of the head. It sure as fuck was no behind the ear shot. It was on the left/back side of the head.
JLUVBABY
its starting to look like we MAY see a lt heavyweight double header from what im reading.... dont know how concrete this is but its starting to look like its gonna be pascal vs dawson 2 and cloud vs hopkins on the same card... hopkins next for cloud? i think its talk right now but id like to see this happen... bernard really schools cloud picks up a strap... goes down as the oldest man to win a title... goes on to defeat the dawson pascal winner whom now im really hoping is pascal tho it could very well be dawson this time... see ya in canastota bernard... lol...
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (The CEO @ Dec 19 2010, 09:16 AM) *
Definitely...if they fight south of the border, that will be a lock for Dawson...but I doubt it gets set in America.

Dawson is probably still kicking himself....fighting half-cocked and giving it away like he did....

Dawson's problem is he takes his family to work. Have go to work with daddy day the first day at the gym dude. You just don't walk to the ring to kick somebody's ass holding your kids hand. That aint focus on the job, if you no what I mean. That's Mr. Mommy shit.
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 20 2010, 07:50 PM) *
its starting to look like we MAY see a lt heavyweight double header from what im reading.... dont know how concrete this is but its starting to look like its gonna be pascal vs dawson 2 and cloud vs hopkins on the same card... hopkins next for cloud? i think its talk right now but id like to see this happen... bernard really schools cloud picks up a strap... goes down as the oldest man to win a title... goes on to defeat the dawson pascal winner whom now im really hoping is pascal tho it could very well be dawson this time... see ya in canastota bernard... lol...


actually, i think Pascal wants to let Hopkins fight father time first. then maybe he gets a rematch. they don't want to mess up a chance with Bute lol.
gravytrain
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=5940086

Pascal is definitely taking on Dawson first.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 20 2010, 05:11 PM) *
actually, i think Pascal wants to let Hopkins fight father time first. then maybe he gets a rematch. they don't want to mess up a chance with Bute lol.

Bute will beat Pascal silly.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 20 2010, 07:26 PM) *
Bute will beat Pascal silly.


i agree but im not sure pascal gets past dawson this time...
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 20 2010, 05:33 PM) *
i agree but im not sure pascal gets past dawson this time...

I agree if Chad nuts up and leaves mommy with the kids at home.
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 20 2010, 08:33 PM) *
i agree but im not sure pascal gets past dawson this time...


I think Dawson can get him, I'll probably put some money on Dawson too. well i need to see who the judges are first lol.

QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 20 2010, 08:26 PM) *
Bute will beat Pascal silly.


Win or lose it's nice for Pascal, it's a huge Canadian fight.
ViperSniper
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Dec 20 2010, 06:10 PM) *
I had the fight 113-113.

I know that goes against the grain of what most of you saw, but I'm just calling it how I see it.

I had Pascal winning four of the first five, Hopkins six of the last seven. That makes it 7 rounds to 5, but with the two knockdowns that's even.


I think the problem is that Pascal won his rounds by the skin of his teeth, either by landing one or two more shots in a slow round or by those lucky knockdowns, whereas Hopkins won his in a dominating fashion.

That means that Hopkins was clearly the better fighter and, viewing the fight as a whole, laid a beating on Pascal.


But if you take it round by round, for me it was close.



In a rematch, Hopkins stomps him with big, black boots. And I hope that happens.




Black


Much agreed here. I personally thought Hopkins deserved the nod as I scored the bout 114-112 Hopkins, but there were close rounds to many in the fight and although Hopkins may have won his rounds more convincingly, that's no better than a round Pascal won close.

Although myself and the majority scored it for Hopkins, the fact that Hopkins being the challenger got dropped twice by the Champion who was in his hometown. Those facts on it's own didn't help Hopkins case for getting the strap as there were a couple of close rounds that the Challenger has gotta take from the Champ. Do I think Hopkins won? Yes I do. Do I think it's a controversial & debatable fight? Sure, just like tons of other fights that have happened all over the world, in both neutral and hometown decisions. Do I think it's a robbery? Not really.

I happen to look at this fight as a close, but clear victory...But sure, I guess it's just unfortunate he didn't get the decision. All I know is, I've seen much worse decisions than this!

QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 20 2010, 10:06 PM) *
I think what people need to understand is that whatever call the referee makes on a knockdown, or lack of, is the OFFICIAL call that needs to be considered for scoring purposes.

You can't say "I don't think it was a real knock down, so I'm not going to count it." Judges watching may not think it was a "real" knockdown, but if the referee says it is they score accordingly.

Think of it the other way around. Say you're watching a fight and a guy officially SHOULD have a knockdown called on him, but the referee rules it a slip. Do you ever see a judge scoring that round a 10-8 round because in their view it WAS a knockdown? Of course not. I think the 4th round of Mayweather-Judah is an example of this, where Mayweather's glove did touch the canvas after taking a shot from Judah... but it wasn't ruled an official knockdown and hence the judges didn't score any 10-8's and as far as I know no one else scoring the fight gave that round to Judah 10-8.

I dunno I just think a knockdown is a knockdown... and relatively speaking they are uncommon, as in there are far more rounds completed without knockdowns than with knockdowns - so they should be counted for scoring purposes. I think reading into them too much sort of takes away from their significance. I mean Peter's weak jab catching an off balance Toney in the 2nd round of their rematch and knocking him down in terms of scoring should be just as significant as Marquez getting knocked down and hurt by Katsidis in their fight. Just my opinion, of course.


ok.gif EXACTLY!!

QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 21 2010, 12:50 AM) *
its starting to look like we MAY see a lt heavyweight double header from what im reading.... dont know how concrete this is but its starting to look like its gonna be pascal vs dawson 2 and cloud vs hopkins on the same card... hopkins next for cloud? i think its talk right now but id like to see this happen... bernard really schools cloud picks up a strap... goes down as the oldest man to win a title... goes on to defeat the dawson pascal winner whom now im really hoping is pascal tho it could very well be dawson this time... see ya in canastota bernard... lol...


How about a LHW Tounrey involving the four? Sounds like the best outcome of matchups that could happen. I personally want to see Pascal-Dawson II just as much as Pascal-Hopkins II.
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Dec 20 2010, 06:54 PM) *
Black,

How did you score Round 10? Other boards are in an uproar saying that Hopkins dominated that round, and the one judge should not have scored it 10-10. I thought that the round was very close and Pascal BARELY won it. But it was the scoring of that round as an even round that Hopkins people are pissed about. Kyle, earlier in this thread, also gave the round to Pacal (barely.)

Jack



I can't remember the specific rounds, but I think the 10th might have been the round I scored for pascal. I remember the international feed commentators (al bernstein et al) were saying it was a hopkins round and I was like, 'nah, I think pascal nicked it.'

If that sounds like the 10th, then, yeah, it was the 10th.



Black
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Dec 20 2010, 01:54 PM) *
Black,

How did you score Round 10? Other boards are in an uproar saying that Hopkins dominated that round, and the one judge should not have scored it 10-10. I thought that the round was very close and Pascal BARELY won it. But it was the scoring of that round as an even round that Hopkins people are pissed about. Kyle, earlier in this thread, also gave the round to Pacal (barely.)

Jack



I dont know the rules as they are written, but doesnt it make sense that if Hopkins dominates a round, its a 10-9 round. If Hopkins dominates a round, then gets flashed, shouldnt the fighter who was dominated, Pascal, still receive a 9 round. Then the fighter who dominated, Hopkins should have 1 point taken, thus making it a 9-9.

Or is it 10 point must. Meaning, 1 fighter MUST get a 10. That may be why the scoring gets so messed up.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (TRU @ Dec 20 2010, 04:38 PM) *
I just wonder what the hell that judge who gave it to Hopkins was looking at when he scored the 9th round for Jean Pascal.

That was one of the clearest most dominant rounds for Bernard and he gave it to Pascal... weird shit.


I think that same judge may have given Pascal the 4th as well.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Dec 20 2010, 09:58 PM) *
I think Dawson can get him, I'll probably put some money on Dawson too. well i need to see who the judges are first lol.



Win or lose it's nice for Pascal, it's a huge Canadian fight.


To be honest I think whomever gets Pascal next will win. Bernard has fucked that kid up mark my words. Whether it be Hopkins himself, Dawson, Bute or even Cloud my money will be on them. The curse has struck again.
BrutalBodyShots
I wish Hopkins would stop mentioning his age 3-4 times in all of his interviews. Don't get me wrong, I scored the fight for him and am upset he didn't get the decision... but the only thing he should be talking about (which he has talked about) is how he won more rounds, landed the better shots, backed Pascal up, beat him up, etc. Those are the things that win you points on the score cards, not being the significantly older fighter. Judges don't give points for being the "old" guy in there. While we as fans may be fascinated by his abilities at his age, we don't give him extra credit in rounds for being 45. I'm not suggesting Hopkins believes this to be true either as he's a very smart guy but to me at this point it just seems to detract a bit from his interviews and the positive things he DID do in the ring Saturday when he talks about being 45 3-4 times in every interview.
Method
QUOTE
To be honest I think whomever gets Pascal next will win. Bernard has fucked that kid up mark my words.


Agree completely.
D-MARV
Yeah, Pascal might be skull fucked. Let's see how he responds though. I thought Taylor still fought the same after Hopkins.
JLUVBABY
im not sure he is that messed up but im sure he figured to dominate hopkins... that fight messed up his ego in some form or fashion... had to... his ego is too big for it not to be... by the way... can someone post the press conference? seems like hops been doing all the talking.... pascal is being very quiet...
Method
Pascal's Sports Psychiatrist has her hands FULL.

QUOTE
In a perfect world, which this is not, Bernard Hopkins would have gotten the decision he deserved against Jean Pascal on Saturday night in Quebec City, Pascal's backyard.

Hopkins should have gotten the decision -- after the third round, he pretty much dominated the rest of the fight -- and become boxing's oldest world champion just a few weeks shy of his 46th birthday.

By boxing standards, Hopkins is a geezer. But he is a supreme athlete and was the fighter who was fresh as a daisy at the end. Meanwhile, Pascal -- head down and wearing a dejected look -- was the one whose body language suggested he would have rather been anywhere but in the ring with Hopkins.

"Jean Pascal, his corner and all of the Canadians in the arena and on television know I won the fight," Hopkins said. "The crowd was loud in the beginning, but the silence was deafening as I dominated Pascal from the middle rounds all the way to the end of the fight. After the last round, Pascal went back to his corner with his head and hands down. I am sure he is still hanging his head today to think he let a 45-year-old man beat him up the way I did."

Pascal was gassed after about five rounds and in retreat, while Hopkins, 18 years his senior, was the busier fighter. In fact, Hopkins was the guy tracking Pascal down throughout the bout and ripping him with body shots and rights hands.

B-Hop put it best after the fight when he said of Pascal: "He ran from an old grandpa."

While judge Steve Morrow's card of 114-112 was on the money for Hopkins, judges Claude Paquette and Dan Van De Wielle had it 113-113, a draw that allowed Pascal to retain the light heavyweight title.

Pascal said he believed he won, even though he sure didn't sound convincing. He also said, "That wasn't my best fight." Translation: "I know I lost."

Frankly, the scores could have been even slightly wider for Hopkins because even though he was knocked down in the first and third rounds, the one in the opening round was bogus. Pascal cuffed him behind the head with a right hand and Hopkins went down on the foul, but referee Michael Griffin, who generally did a fine job, missed it. The knockdown shouldn't have counted. But even if you give Pascal credit for it, Hopkins was doing well enough in the round that it easily could have been scored only 10-9 in Pascal's favor instead of the traditional 10-8, because the knockdown was so weak.

"He knows what happened in there and he has to live with it," Hopkins said. "The film doesn't lie, but I bet he doesn't even watch the tape so he and all his people around him can tell him something other than the truth. He lost the fight.

"If this guy has a backbone and wants to walk around with any kind of dignity and self-worth, the only thing he can do is fight me again. If that was me, I know that is the only way I could really live with myself."

So even though Hopkins took Pascal to school, he wound up with a bad break and a draw. OK, so it wasn't highway robbery, but that doesn't change the fact that he deserved the victory in what was a very good fight. By Hopkins' often less-than-exciting standards, it was a sheer barnburner.

But now what? Hopkins obviously deserves a rematch and Pascal, who said he was open to it, needs to fight him again to clean up the mess.

"If I were him, I would want to redeem myself and my reputation immediately after what happened," Hopkins said.

If only it were that easy.

First off, Pascal was the big draw in the fight and the reason 16,500 packed the Pepsi Coliseum. Hopkins isn't interested in a return north of the border, where the fight makes the most sense.

"The closest I will ever come to Canada again is Niagara Falls," he said. I assume he meant he'd be on the U.S. side.

There is also Pascal's contractual situation. He defeated Chad Dawson via 11th-round technical decision in a dominant performance in August, but their contract included a rematch clause for Dawson. It allows Pascal to take an interim bout -- which he did against Hopkins -- before having to face Dawson again.

So even if the WBC, which sanctioned the bout, ordered Pascal-Hopkins II, Pascal likely would have to give up the title, which he doesn't want to do, and face Dawson again. Golden Boy's Richard Schaefer, Hopkins' promoter, said after the fight that WBC president for life Jose Sulaiman, who was ringside, had ordered a rematch. However, Sulaiman said he would like to see one but didn't actually mandate it. At least that's what Pascal's promoter, Yvon Michel, told me.

The rematch clause for Pascal and Dawson isn't as set in stone as it might appear. According to Michel, "We have signed an agreement to fight Chad Dawson if HBO or Showtime is willing to pay a license fee the same or higher than the last time. So I don't know." Michel went on to say that there was a deadline for that decision looming.

From what I understand, HBO paid about $2.5 million-ish for Pascal-Dawson. Would the network actually pay that much again? It sure doesn't seem worth it based on how the first fight went.

Maybe Pascal doesn't want to fight Hopkins again after how badly the first fight went, although he can surely make more money in that rematch than one with Dawson. But if Pascal does want a Hopkins rematch next, he should hope HBO doesn't make as generous an offer this time, which according to Michel, would free them from the obligation.

It's hard to see Showtime being interested in Pascal-Dawson II when it's an HBO leftover. Showtime surely would prefer a sequel to the dandy it aired Saturday instead.

Michel is a smart promoter. He's not looking to antagonize Dawson's promoter, Gary Shaw, by ignoring their contract in favor of a Hopkins rematch. Instead, he's content to let the situation play out and let HBO and Showtime crunch their numbers.

"It is our intention to take our responsibility and also honor our agreement, so we have to communicate with the parties involved," said Michel, who planned to talk to HBO about the situation this week. "We are not trying to escape our agreement."

My preferred scenario is that HBO not offer the requisite money to formalize Pascal-Dawson II, which would pave the way for Pascal-Hopkins II. And then I'd like to see Dawson challenge titlist Tavoris Cloud, who outpointed Fulgencio Zuniga on Friday night, and who may be the best of the 175-pound bunch. Dawson once gave up a belt to fight a rematch with Glen Johnson rather than face Cloud, who was his mandatory challenger. Cloud went on to win the vacant belt, but he and his team have always felt like Dawson ducked them. That element would add some heat to the fight. Then I'd like to see the Pascal-Hopkins II winner fight the Cloud-Dawson winner.

If that worked out (a huge if), I'd like to see the guy who emerges from Pascal-Hopkins-Cloud-Dawson fight the winner of a super middleweight title bout between Lucian Bute and the eventual winner of the Super Six World Boxing Classic (Andre Ward?).

Maybe somewhere in there we can also find room for a big fight for the winner of the Jan. 8 light heavyweight unification match between Beibut Shumenov and Jürgen Brahmer.

My fantasy scenario is most likely nothing more than a pipe dream. It makes too much sense, and this is boxing, which often makes no sense. But one thing it does show is that there are plenty of good fights between super middleweight and light heavyweight to make.

And if my fantasy scenario did work out, would anyone dare bet against Hopkins?
gravytrain
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Dec 21 2010, 06:17 AM) *
I wish Hopkins would stop mentioning his age 3-4 times in all of his interviews. Don't get me wrong, I scored the fight for him and am upset he didn't get the decision... but the only thing he should be talking about (which he has talked about) is how he won more rounds, landed the better shots, backed Pascal up, beat him up, etc. Those are the things that win you points on the score cards, not being the significantly older fighter. Judges don't give points for being the "old" guy in there. While we as fans may be fascinated by his abilities at his age, we don't give him extra credit in rounds for being 45. I'm not suggesting Hopkins believes this to be true either as he's a very smart guy but to me at this point it just seems to detract a bit from his interviews and the positive things he DID do in the ring Saturday when he talks about being 45 3-4 times in every interview.


I don't think he expects the judges to give him rounds because he's old, he's talking about what he's doing at this age because it's such an accomplishment. not to mention that everyone was thinking he should have hung up the gloves after Jones II.

QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Dec 21 2010, 04:55 AM) *
To be honest I think whomever gets Pascal next will win. Bernard has fucked that kid up mark my words. Whether it be Hopkins himself, Dawson, Bute or even Cloud my money will be on them. The curse has struck again.


One Candian had a really fucked up card but on the other cards I think Dawson was behind 2 points before the stopped due to the cut. I doubt he would have won but it's a relatively close fight. If Dawson puts more effort in early rounds I could see him winning, that and I think Pascal will be a little anxious next time he gets in the ring. I think he beats Cloud though. Hopkins will definitely decision him if they fight again and I'll be betting on that. unless Pascal tries to wait until he's 50, then he's just a bitch.

i'll definitely be putting some money on the 175lb division in the future, who i'll be putting it on depends on where they fight and who the judges are lol.
JLUVBABY
PR316
Am currently watching the fight again now.

Thought Hopkins won the first time and now I am even MORE CONVINCED that not only he won, but he really didn't break too much of a sweat in doing so.

He beat this dude from pillar to post honestly. The first knockdown was bull and no more needs to be said. The 2nd knockdown was debatable. If it was, it was more balance than anything. I mean the fact that Hopkins didn't really complain maybe goes to say that it was a legit knockdown but Pascal still lost that round IMO.

From the 4th round on Hops just OUTCLASSED him. Even Trinidad was more competitive than Pascal was being with the way he was running and avoiding. If not for all that holding, Pascal probably would have been stopped. Even the rare occasion he landed a shot it had no effect on Hopkins.

I had always felt that Hopkins may have made a mistake going into his hometown to fight him. If this fight goes down again(I don't think Pascal wants anymore honestly), it would have to be in the US.

I mean when the Canadian people are booing the decision over the foreigner(Which was a draw not a win), then you just KNOW that something is wrong.

To add, I must say that Hopkins has shown signs of age as far as his legs and reflexes go, but at the same time he just has so much overall skill and know how plus his conditioning even still at 45.

He'd have a tough time with those guys at Super Six but he probably could still find a way to beat them. I would give Bute a good shot at it due to his speed and workrate but he does have stamina issues Hopkins could take advantage of.
gravytrain
I'd Hopkins getting a shutout from the 4th round on. Pascal arguably only got a 10-9 round in the third too. I completely agree that he won pretty soundly.
BrutalBodyShots
Pascal at least landed on Hopkins a little in the later rounds, even if in a losing effort.

Trinidad barely landed on Hopkins at all with the exception of maybe the 6th round, where Hopkins traded shots with him more and was willing to openly exchange. Other than that, Trinidad landed VERY FEW clean shots the entire night.

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