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D-MARV
Explain your Pick...

Also, if you feel as if someone else deserves mention, go ahead and add them. If you want to rank these guys... please do so.
SmartyBeardo
Great question. Too tough for a snap answer before work.

I do think that The Klits and JCC deserve to be on the list.

I foresee some long assed replies coming down the pike.
TheFonz
Why Morales and no Barrera?
Lil-lightsout
Just my take.

IMO Roy is the greatest fighter I ever seen period in his prime. BUT with his loss to Tarver and his huge downward spiral, it is hard to pick him. Plus people rip on his opponents.

Whitaker was an amazing gifted fighter who beat a lot of solid fighters. His only "real" losses were after his prime years and at heavier weights. No, he did not "lose" to Ramirez in the first fight! He makes a good case.

Mosley- Great fighter, but no way. Really no explanation needed.

Oscar- Again no way. He probably has the best resume on this list, but clearly not the best in the last 20 years.

Lewis- Take away the lucky Mcall shot and his undertrained lazy movie making ass for the Rahman fight, he probably never loses a fight in his career. Just look at both his rematches to see what happens when Lewis was prepared. I think Lewis beat some good fighters also, just probably not enough to compare to other weights. He also did lose those two fights regardless of the excuses, so...

Hopkins- WOW!!! Considering the length of time this guy has been an elite fighter is unheard of. He does have losses to Taylor twice and Calzaghe, all close fights which could have went the other way. Pretty impressive his amount of title defenses at midleweight too, though to be honest they are many freeby's in there. None the less still to win that long without a hiccup is pretty hard in this game. He makes a strong case.

Mayweather- No way in my book. Regarless of the excuses, just wish he was in the ring more often with better fighters. This dude has all the skills and talent, but to me there is not enough proof.

Morales- Nope. He was a great champion, just not the best.

Pac- Just maybe. Even though he gets ripped on for his opponents as of recent years, the dude has been a beast for a long time and has fought many great fighters along the way. His accomplishments are pretty damn good. To me he makes a strong case.

What about Calzaghe??? laugh.gif

I guess I have no final answer yet.
streetlion1
Out of the ones on this list I gotta go with B-Hop. His dominance in the middleweight division...his continued dominance over fighters half his age...he arguably won every fight he lost and he just destroyed the champion Pascal.

I gotta give mention to De La Hoya...was always a big fan of his skill and fight all comers attitude.

JD
Whitaker for me.

P4P he is my top fighter on the list, and it his best, he was untouchable. I only saw him lose when he was dealing with a serious coke habit...Whitaker is my call.
lloyd mayflower
Cant really take loses into my equation because theres only one undefeated fighter there and I wont consider Floyd given the other fighters on the list. Maybe if the title was talent rather than greatness I would consider him.

Personally i'm leaning towards Lennox. I have it between him and BHop. Guys like Jones and Holyfield are losing their lustre by fighting on, Jones moreso, whereas BHop adds to it by producing performances like the other night. I have to shade it to Lennox tho as Bernard got a crack at avenging his loss to Taylor and couldnt manage it. Lennox's legacy could have taken a severe hit with the whole Rahman thing but he knocked him out in stunning fashion to right that wrong.

All I know is when I was getting into boxing, it was a lot to do with Lennox.

Tough one tho DMARV, if I sat and thought about it longer I could probably change my mind 3 or 4 times.
Sunni6Killer
Pernell Whitaker.
Method
Ex. The most complete fighter on that list. The best resume on that list. Fuck, the most longevity on that cot damn list.

Fuck Pernell. He was untouchable, but that's ALL he was.
kidbazooka1
Chavez was greater than most on that list and just as great as Whitaker, Jones and Pacqiuao.
JD
Whitaker was a lot more than just incredible defensively...he was excellent offensively too. The dude was an incredible counter-puncher and while not a big puncher, he would come forward, counter the hell out of whoever he was fighting, and avoid whatever was coming back.
Jack 1000
I picked two choices, because they both deserve merit:

Manny Pacquiao: This fighter just keeps moving up, dominating and either knocking them out or almost shutting them out, He is literally without weakness and is so precise in his boxing ability, but great in slugging. Always entertaining to watch and just keeps getting better. He's already being compared to Robinson, so he has to be number 1. He does his fighting in the ring and doesn't try to demand things outside the ring or there will be no fight threats. Manny is agreeable and just a pleasure to watch and I am sure with whom to work.

Bernard Hopkins: Regardless of how you felt the Pascal fight may have come out. Look at this guy. At 46 years old, he knows every trick in the book, and the way that he destroyed a near great in Trinidad just speaks volumes. But every time he fights, he will always give his very best in the ring, and even if he loses, it is never easy. He did better than expected against Jones when Jones was a P4P great. But look at where Roy is now, and look at what Bernard is still doing over a span of about 20 years.

And Hopkins would have given Hagler or Lamatta great fights! I''ll say this, if Hagler would fight Hopkins like he fought Duran and Leonard those nights, Hopkins would have won. Hagler would have to be at his best to win.

Notes:

Floyd Mayweather is not included because there are two many top guys that he refused to fight, mainly Margarito and Cotto. Unlike Pacquiao, Floyd only takes fights with a 75% chance of winning because he is more concerned with retiring as an undefeated fighter than risking it against a fighter who could hurt him. Floyd has some points about Manny and the drug testing, BUT, if it's not a problem or concern for the other champions and contenders that Manny has fought, it should not be a problem for Floyd.

I honestly believe that Floyd does not want to fight Manny because he is afraid that Manny might land some hard shots and hurt him. The drug test is a smoke screen that Floyd is using to prevent the fight. Now, if Floyd fights Manny and there is proof of PED's post-fight than yea, blast the shit out of Manny and call for stricter drug testing. But Floyd's people are playing the "Guilty until proven innocent" game. And that's not how justice works.

Roy Jones: Too much "Most Money, Lest Risk" mind sent Too many good fighters in prime he didn't fight for fear of getting hurt.

And it's a shame for Floyd and Roy, because they are probably the best all-around gifted boxers in terms of athletic ability, reflexes, and agility. If they just would have cleaned out there divisions instead of ducked guys, they could have been a part of Manny's greatness. Floyd and Roy could have been like Leonard and Hearns, but their avoided competition hurts them.

Now if Mayweather fights and beats Pacquiao, he will than take the #1 spot. If he loses, but gives a close effort or a controversial one, he might move into a 1a or 1b type of situation, or no lower than number 2. But Floyd's legacy remains hurt without a win over Pacquiao, or even a Pacquiao fight.

Jack
caneman
I pick BHop cause over the last 20 years he was the most consistent & furthermore I believe that between 1997 and 2001 he would have given RJJ his 1st loss. I thought about Sweetpea & it would be easy to pick him with skill set that was actually complete, compared to RJJ who while has amazing speed & talent, the second it slipped a bit, he didn't have the true skills needed...he just wasn't complete.

I have to say that Pacman is racking up an amazing resume but as of late, while it's amazing what he is doing, he needs some more defining fights & those type fights he might not ever get! JMM @ 140 & Mayweather @ 147! And stop with the catch weights and maybe pick off Berto or anyone else with a belt @ a non catch weight! That would change if he fought Martinez @ 154 & actually won cause for me that would be as amazing as BHop fighting @ such a level @ almost 46! I would also like to see him take any testing needed to clear his name even if I think he is clean but great by Mayweather Sr to bring that shit up & create doubt & make is son look good & Pacman look bad...now stop with the catch weight, fight JMM @ 140 get PBF if he doesn't go to jail/prison & beat his ass(I still say PBF will beat him 115-113 though)!

Personally, as badass as he was, JCC can't be #1 as IMO he lost to Sweetpea without a doubt in my mind! I just think BHop should get it considering he never got his ass whipped in 20 years of fighting unlike anyone other than Mayweather but that's just my opinion & I can't knock anyone else's choice but how could anyone have Mosley? lolz! For the most part, he lost every big fight he had even though I do like the guy!
SmartyBeardo
Still no time to give a detailed reply.

Sweet Pea was the greatest boxer 148 and below in the last 20 years.

RJJ was the greatest boxer 154 and over in the last 20 years.

Pac is probably the greatest fighter 148 and under since 1990.

BHop is the best overall fighter since 1990.

Bowe, The Burger King and Trinidad deserve to be on the list.
TRU
My favorite 3 fighters of all-time are Bernard Hopkins, Erik Morales, and James Toney.

Toney is the greatest out of all three and should definitely be on this list. Morales is my favorite but is last out of the three being that he just didn't have the handspeed of Toney or the left hand of Hopkins.

Hopkins is only the slightest bit under for Toney for me being that he completely altered the way he fought in the latter part of his career. It led to him being less effective then he should have been and cost him some fights he never should have lost like Jermain Taylor. While I think Calzaghe might have posed some issues to Bernard at possibly an earlier time in his career, a prime Bernard Hopkins completely murders Taylor.

As great as Bernard is to me, I still think Toney edges him out in terms of greatness albeit an under-achiever due to lack of discipline.

Toney is as tough mentally AND physically as any fighter I've ever witnessed in any era. Both Hopkins and Morales are tough as all hell... I just could never imagine Toney going up and taking shots from Sam Peter. It pretty much ended his career but to watch the pudgy bastard take the beating from Peter like a champ really had me in awe.

Still think that Jirov & Holyfield year was vastly underrated in terms of accomplishments. Jirov was a nasty, nasty bastard especially in their fight. Hitting him blatantly low on various occassions and having a work-rate on par with Margarito. Toney just rolled with shots and countered like a madman.

I still think Toney's performance against Iran Barkley is probably the best boxing performance I've ever seen period.

Hopkins-Echols I and Hopkins-Trinidad was good stuff as well.
caneman
QUOTE (TRU @ Dec 21 2010, 11:46 PM) *
My favorite 3 fighters of all-time are Bernard Hopkins, Erik Morales, and James Toney.

Toney is the greatest out of all three and should definitely be on this list. Morales is my favorite but is last out of the three being that he just didn't have the handspeed of Toney or the left hand of Hopkins.

Hopkins is only the slightest bit under for Toney for me being that he completely altered the way he fought in the latter part of his career. It led to him being less effective then he should have been and cost him some fights he never should have lost like Jermain Taylor. While I think Calzaghe might have posed some issues to Bernard at possibly an earlier time in his career, a prime Bernard Hopkins completely murders Taylor.

As great as Bernard is to me, I still think Toney edges him out in terms of greatness albeit an under-achiever due to lack of discipline.

Toney is as tough mentally AND physically as any fighter I've ever witnessed in any era. Both Hopkins and Morales are tough as all hell... I just could never imagine Toney going up and taking shots from Sam Peter. It pretty much ended his career but to watch the pudgy bastard take the beating from Peter like a champ really had me in awe.

Still think that Jirov & Holyfield year was vastly underrated in terms of accomplishments. Jirov was a nasty, nasty bastard especially in their fight. Hitting him blatantly low on various occassions and having a work-rate on par with Margarito. Toney just rolled with shots and countered like a madman.


I still think Toney's performance against Iran Barkley is probably the best boxing performance I've ever seen period.

Hopkins-Echols I and Hopkins-Trinidad was good stuff as well.



YET HE LOST TO MONTELL GRIFFIN TWICE...GREAT OR HOW CAN HE BE #1 BRO? I DO UNDERSTAND YOU LIKING HIM THOUGH, HE IS A GREAT FIGHTER!
TRU
Those decisions were worse then the Hopkins-Taylor fights...

Got robbed against Sam Peter that first go around.

Toney edges out Hopkins in my book... Fucker went up to heavyweight and sat down with some big boys. Bernard has done great work at 60 and 75.

We pretty much splitting hairs because both guys are equally great virtually. I just happen to edge Toney.
BigG
Whitaker and Hopkins for me....

I mean Pac is great and his wins over Barrera the first time, Morales 2nd time, Cotto, Hatton, clottye were great but I thought he lost to Marquez twice. He's been in theb ig fights and won but I give him no credit for that Margarito win.

Floyd has many great wins too...and he just be the best fighter in the last 20 years tho...

A past prime Whitaker beat DLH (IMO)....altho I wouldn't argue if you thought DLH won...and DLH was young, he wasnt fuckin drained like he was vs Manny, and he was in his prime and he was bigger than Sweet Pea...he was afuckin skeleton vs Pac...unhealthy...

Bernard is just fuckin amazing..I mean just think about how dedicated this man is...he fights a 27 year old Light-Heavyweight Champion, the man who beat the man, and fucks him up....at one month before 46....so Bernard is amazing..his dedication, his training, his skills...he is made from the same cloth as Archie Moore, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles...

Roy...I think is the most talented fighter I've ever seen physically maybe..in his prime the 90's.


The CEO
The greatest fighter?

Either Hopkins or Whitaker...


The best P4P?

That's between Mayweather and Hopkins...

EAlbian
Notes:

Floyd Mayweather is not included because there are two many top guys that he refused to fight, mainly Margarito and Cotto. Unlike Pacquiao, Floyd only takes fights with a 75% chance of winning because he is more concerned with retiring as an undefeated fighter than risking it against a fighter who could hurt him. Floyd has some points about Manny and the drug testing, BUT, if it's not a problem or concern for the other champions and contenders that Manny has fought, it should not be a problem for Floyd.

I honestly believe that Floyd does not want to fight Manny because he is afraid that Manny might land some hard shots and hurt him. The drug test is a smoke screen that Floyd is using to prevent the fight. Now, if Floyd fights Manny and there is proof of PED's post-fight than yea, blast the shit out of Manny and call for stricter drug testing. But Floyd's people are playing the "Guilty until proven innocent" game. And that's not how justice works.

Now if Mayweather fights and beats Pacquiao, he will than take the #1 spot. If he loses, but gives a close effort or a controversial one, he might move into a 1a or 1b type of situation, or no lower than number 2. But Floyd's legacy remains hurt without a win over Pacquiao, or even a Pacquiao fight.

Jack
[/quote]

So in your opinion, Pac is great for beating Cotto, Clotty, Diaz, and Margarito??? Because Mayweather's last 4 opponents were De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, and Mosley. 4 of Pacquiao's last 8, 3 of which mayweather beat first. Barrera and Morales didn't want to move up to fight Floyd when he was at 130 and they were at 126, fights which i believe would be a foregone conclusion Mayweather would have won. Mayweather also beat Corrales, Castillo, Manfreddy, and Hernandez when they were division forerunners. He never ducked Cotto ( http://www.boxingnews24.com/2010/03/did-co...uck-mayweather/ ). When Margarito called out Mayweather he fought Baldomir for the same money and the lineal welterweight championship and was looking to establish himself in big money fights with De La Hoya and Hatton. The other thing is that the fighters you mention are top rank fighters and this is at a time that mayweather had just left top rank because of money that Bob Arum wasn't paying him. Mayweather to me is the best fighter of the last 20 years with Pac in a close #2(lets hope it will be decided who really is number 1 in the ring this year) and B-Hop in #3. Jones, Holyfield, Lewis, Whittaker, Chavez, Trinidad, De La Hoya would be my Top ten in pretty much that order. HM go to Toney, Calzhage, Barerra, Morales
E.C.LEGEND
I have to go with my boy Roy on this one. Roy had that WOW factor (it was like playing fight night on easy watching him). He had charisma plus the hands to make opponents look foolish. To me thats what you have to do to be considered great. I could see Bernard at 2. Hopkins has had the better later career but prime for prime I'm going with Superman!
gravytrain
Just going by primes I say RJJ has this one pretty easily. I'd say it's between Hopkins and Jones.
caneman
RJJ is getting some space between him and the rest it would seem. He sure was gifted and like him or not, that is a fact! We missed a great fight when BHop & him didn't fight somewhere between 1997 and 2001! Bhop was really dangerous before he got paid & had that chip on his shoulders.
STEVENSKI
Hopkins easily IMO. No need to explain why it has been said 1000 times before.
gravytrain
QUOTE (caneman @ Dec 22 2010, 06:42 PM) *
RJJ is getting some space between him and the rest it would seem. He sure was gifted and like him or not, that is a fact! We missed a great fight when BHop & him didn't fight somewhere between 1997 and 2001! Bhop was really dangerous before he got paid & had that chip on his shoulders.


He knew the deal; "60/40 I whoops yo ass".
D-MARV
In terms of longevity, you have to go with Hopkins. He's fought at an elite level for nearly 20 years. Pair that with his spectacular run at Middleweight, you have yourself one of the all time greats. Seriously, can anybody really favor (comfortably) Leonard, Hagler or Hearns over Hopkins? Can you favor (comfortably) Sugar Ray Robinson over Hopkins?

In terms of Skill, it's a toss up between Mayweather and Whitaker. Both fighters will go down among the greatest defenders this sport has ever seen. Whitaker was a pleasure to watch in the ring (many will not agree). I give Mayweather the slight edge because I feel that he was a better offensive fighter but Whitaker's offense gets overlooked because his defense was so legendary.

In terms of Ability, it's hands down Roy Jones Jr. for me. Turned me into a hardcore fan and till this day, I continue to throw in old film of himtoying with opponents. I said before and I'll say it again... At the peak of his game, Roy is the closest thing this sport has seen to unbeatable. Great Defense, Reflexes, Speed, Power, Athleticism... Roy had it all. One thing he lacked (and he came back to haunt him when he got older) was the technical aspects of the sport.

Pacquiao has a case as well. His run since 2008 is good but it's overrated. It, sadly, overshadows his body of work prior to 135. Fastest set of hands in recent times along with power that gets more devastating as he climbs up the weight classes (???) makes him a force to be reckon with. I can't quite see him as the greatest in the past 20 years but he's not to far behind.

It really tough when you look at it. I think Hopkins is the slight favorite (and he should be) because of his overall skill, longevity, and accomplishments.

Romulus9
Roy Jones.

In his prime, he didn't beat people, he destroyed people. There will always be the talk of the fights that didn't happen but what was he going to do? FORCE those clowns to fight him? He was the universally recognized champion but Michalczewski, Nigel Benn, Steve Collins and the like all thought that Jones was supposed to fight them in Europe, where he could win 10 rounds and lose a decision. Jones knew the deal.

A prime Jones at 168 may be one of the top 2-3 fighters I've ever seen.

The cases made for Hopkins, Whitaker, and Chavez all have merit. Chavez loses a little steam because a lot of his great work came in the late 80s, outside of the 20 year time frame.
Spyder
Roy Jones was the best fighter that I ever saw. Watching him fight was like watching a ridiculous Kung-Fu movie...like Jackie Chan fucking up the street gang in Rumble in the Bronx. He was so far superior to everyone he fought...he went YEARS without losing a round.

Say what you want about his comp, but you can't ignore the fact that he beat 2 ATG's at their best weights.
HaydelHammer
Prime Roy period point blank. Won't ever see anything like it ever again.
ViperSniper
QUOTE (Spyder @ Dec 23 2010, 04:29 AM) *
Roy Jones was the best fighter that I ever saw. Watching him fight was like watching a ridiculous Kung-Fu movie...like Jackie Chan fucking up the street gang in Rumble in the Bronx. He was so far superior to everyone he fought...he went YEARS without losing a round.

Say what you want about his comp, but you can't ignore the fact that he beat 2 ATG's at their best weights.


+1

neophyte7
So in your opinion, Pac is great for beating Cotto, Clotty, Diaz, and Margarito??? Because Mayweather's last 4 opponents were De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, and Mosley. 4 of Pacquiao's last 8, 3 of which mayweather beat first. Barrera and Morales didn't want to move up to fight Floyd when he was at 130 and they were at 126, fights which i believe would be a foregone conclusion Mayweather would have won. Mayweather also beat Corrales, Castillo, Manfreddy, and Hernandez when they were division forerunners. He never ducked Cotto ( http://www.boxingnews24.com/2010/03/did-co...uck-mayweather/ ). When Margarito called out Mayweather he fought Baldomir for the same money and the lineal welterweight championship and was looking to establish himself in big money fights with De La Hoya and Hatton. The other thing is that the fighters you mention are top rank fighters and this is at a time that mayweather had just left top rank because of money that Bob Arum wasn't paying him. Mayweather to me is the best fighter of the last 20 years with Pac in a close #2(lets hope it will be decided who really is number 1 in the ring this year) and B-Hop in #3. Jones, Holyfield, Lewis, Whittaker, Chavez, Trinidad, De La Hoya would be my Top ten in pretty much that order. HM go to Toney, Calzhage, Barerra, Morales
[/quote]


excellent breakdown and pointing out 4 of pacs last 8 had 3 guys mayweather beat first LMAO-- PAC is an aberration to a degree now he is going after more Leftovers in Mosley-- LMAO I have to say that BHOP is the greatest fighter in the last 20 years ROY JONES IS PATHETIC no matter how spectacular he looked mimicing chickens in the ring.. he is not the best in the last 20 years
Method
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ Dec 22 2010, 06:29 PM) *
I have to go with my boy Roy on this one. Roy had that WOW factor (it was like playing fight night on easy watching him). He had charisma plus the hands to make opponents look foolish.

Like playing fight night on EASY and rematching "Glass Joe" fight after fight after fight. Roy had charisma and fast hands to make opponents look foolish, but, even MORE SO, he had the foolish opponents to make Roy's hands look fast and to showcase his "charisma". So did the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS.
SmartyBeardo
Definitely the best pure boxing thread in awhile, IMO.

Some (not so) random thoughts;

I voted for BHop but I can understand why RJJ is winning rather handily. But I cannot discount the last 6 years when considering who to vote for.

I do not understand how anyone could vote for SSM or Morales. I like them both but neither should be on the list.

While I believe that Sweet Pea was at least as great a boxer as I have ever seen south of the heavies, and he certainly deserves to be on the list, I can't see a good argument for voting for him. JCC is a similar case.

On the flipside, no matter how much you hate the dude, how could Calsoggy not be on that list? No matter what you think of his homer ways, he owned a super middle belt for over 10 years. He retired undefeated. He got decisions over BHop and RJJ. He defeated Kessler when he was a 39-0 champion. He beat Bika at his best. He beat an undefeated Lacy who many (including here) thought was the real deal at the time. He defeated Veit when he was 30-0 and 45-1. I can't stand the dude but he deserves to be on that list.

Felix Trinidad not only deserves to be on the list, but if he had been I would have been tempted to vote for him. Trinidad owned a welter belt for 6 years and 16 fights. He defeated Camacho (43-2), Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), Barnes (39-1), Lovato (21-1), Sweet Pea (40-2-1, admittedly diminished but still Pernell), Pineda (36-1-1, whose only other loss was to Tszyu), and ODLH (31-0). IMO, Trinidad may have ruled the welters for another 5 to 10 years if he could have stayed there.

In 2000, Felix conquered the light middle weight division, defeating Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1) and Vargas (20-0). In 2001, Trinidad moved to middle and defeated the tough Joppy (32-1-1) then reached his bridge too far v BHop, 9/29/2001, just 2 years removed from his reign at welter.

Omitting Felix Trinidad from any list of the greatest fighters of the last 20 years is not just an obvious oversight but an injustice. Felix Trinidad was one of the great fighters of our lifetimes.

More later.
gbh32001
Where is James Toney?that muther fucker should be in the list..LOL
Jack 1000
Not surprised that Jones is on the list, but surprised that he is ahead of Hopkins, and even leading the poll.

Jack
JD
Jones at his peak might have been the most athletically gifted guy to ever step in the ring...so, people remember that.
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 23 2010, 07:48 AM) *
Like playing fight night on EASY and rematching "Glass Joe" fight after fight after fight. Roy had charisma and fast hands to make opponents look foolish, but, even MORE SO, he had the foolish opponents to make Roy's hands look fast and to showcase his "charisma". So did the HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS.

lol it's not his fault they were his mandatories. The only reason Roy keeps fighting is because now he is jealous of hopkins taking (his) spotlight. It was the other way around and I don't think roys ego can take it. That's why their second fight sucked, their egos got in the way, and neither Roy or Bernard was going to let the other get a knock out. lol But I am a biased since Roy is my favorite fighter ever. When you look at careers you look at their primes. If someone brings up Ali they don't talk about him getting thrashed in his out of prime fights.
D-MARV
The Hopkins' Faithful will always shit on Roy's resume. Truth of the matter is... up until 2004, their wasn't much difference between the two fighters' resumes. The body of work since then gives Hopkins the edge but up until then I think Roy was greater.
Method
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ Dec 23 2010, 01:03 PM) *
That's why their second fight sucked, their egos got in the way, and neither Roy or Bernard was going to let the other get a knock out.
It was absolutely NO different than the first fight. Period.

That said, I wasn't trying to shit on your previous vote. You're entitled to your opinion, and Roy IS a gifted athlete. I just dont think he's the greatest fighter. Oh, and those shitty names on his resume were NOT mandatories. They were HAND PICKED. That's why Roy's HBO contract was deemed "The Contract from HELL".

As Beardo stated...

QUOTE
"I can understand why RJJ is winning rather handily. But I cannot discount the last 6 years when considering who to vote for." - Smarty Beardo

You can't discount the last 6 of the last 20 years, as it represents 30% OF THE BENCHMARK. Hopkins has been performing at a top level for that time, and Roy Jones topped out long ago. Trinidad was been inactive for a good portion of the last 20...and so on and so forth. Hopkins kicking ass for ~18-20 of the last 20 when nobody else on that list - NOBODY else has...AND he has the resume to prove it...just as good (in most, if not all cases, better) than anyone on that list....

Jones
Johnson
Trinidad
De La Hoya
Taylor
Tarver
Wright
Calzaghe
Pavlik
Ornelas
Jones
Pascal

Sprinkle in some...

Lipsey
Vanderpool
Echols
Allen
Holmes
Joppy
Eastman

I mean, even the fights above he LOST, he arguably won or stood his ground.

Anyway I dont mean to beat the drum for Ex, because I understand that its "different horses for different courses" and I respect a lot of the guys on the list and in the sport.

I'm just sayin.













PS - I threw Ornelas in there as a joke, peanut gallery, so take that bullet out of your chamber right now.

Peanut gallery: "Damn, I thought I finally had him"
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 23 2010, 03:53 PM) *
It was absolutely NO different than the first fight. Period.

That said, I wasn't trying to shit on your previous vote. You're entitled to your opinion, and Roy IS a gifted athlete. I just dont think he's the greatest fighter. Oh, and those shitty names on his resume were NOT mandatories. They were HAND PICKED. That's why Roy's HBO contract was deemed "The Contract from HELL".

As Beardo stated...


You can't discount the last 6 of the last 20 years, as it represents 30% OF THE BENCHMARK. Hopkins has been performing at a top level for that time, and Roy Jones topped out long ago. Trinidad was been inactive for a good portion of the last 20...and so on and so forth. Hopkins kicking ass for ~18-20 of the last 20 when nobody else on that list - NOBODY else has...AND he has the resume to prove it...just as good (in most, if not all cases, better) than anyone on that list....

Jones
Johnson
Trinidad
De La Hoya
Taylor
Tarver
Wright
Calzaghe
Pavlik
Ornelas
Jones
Pascal

Sprinkle in some...

Lipsey
Vanderpool
Echols
Allen
Holmes
Joppy
Eastman

I mean, even the fights above he LOST, he arguably won or stood his ground.

Anyway I dont mean to beat the drum for Ex, because I understand that its "different horses for different courses" and I respect a lot of the guys on the list and in the sport.

I'm just sayin.













PS - I threw Ornelas in there as a joke, peanut gallery, so take that bullet out of your chamber right now.

Peanut gallery: "Damn, I thought I finally had him"

I know know you weren't talking about my vote. I was just stating why I pick Roy over hopkins. I personally think that Roy would have retired if Bernard would have not had the success that he's having now.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Dec 23 2010, 01:08 PM) *
He was the universally recognized champion but Michalczewski, Nigel Benn, Steve Collins and the like all thought that Jones was supposed to fight them in Europe, where he could win 10 rounds and lose a decision. Jones knew the deal.


Stop acting like robberies only occur in Europe. There are plenty that happen in the good ole USA.

QUOTE (Method @ Dec 23 2010, 10:48 PM) *
Like playing fight night on EASY and rematching "Glass Joe" fight after fight after fight.


That sums up Roy's middle part of his career when he was in his "prime"

QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 24 2010, 01:36 AM) *
Omitting Felix Trinidad from any list of the greatest fighters of the last 20 years is not just an obvious oversight but an injustice. Felix Trinidad was one of the great fighters of our lifetimes.


I agree. Tito was a great fighter & I really enjoyed him.


One fighter that is not on the list is Tszyu. Not saying that he is thebest of the last 20 years or anything but Tszyu in his prime was one of the most skilled fighters I have seen. He showed timing & sound boxing fundamentals can overcome speed & skill time & time again. The fact that he specialised in destroying southpaws is often overlooked as most trainers keep their fighters away from lefties whereas Tszyu seemed to thrive on them.
D-MARV
Tszyu doesn't belong on that list... not that I think about it, Mosley doesn't belong either. I like both fighters, but there just something missing about those two. Maybe Calzaghe belongs?
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Dec 23 2010, 11:45 AM) *
The Hopkins' Faithful will always shit on Roy's resume. Truth of the matter is... up until 2004, their wasn't much difference between the two fighters' resumes. The body of work since then gives Hopkins the edge but up until then I think Roy was greater.

I agree.

QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ Dec 23 2010, 12:25 PM) *
I know know you weren't talking about my vote. I was just stating why I pick Roy over hopkins. I personally think that Roy would have retired if Bernard would have not had the success that he's having now.

RJJ should have retired.

QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Dec 23 2010, 02:12 PM) *
One fighter that is not on the list is Tszyu. Not saying that he is thebest of the last 20 years or anything but Tszyu in his prime was one of the most skilled fighters I have seen. He showed timing & sound boxing fundamentals can overcome speed & skill time & time again. The fact that he specialised in destroying southpaws is often overlooked as most trainers keep their fighters away from lefties whereas Tszyu seemed to thrive on them.


QUOTE (D-MARV @ Dec 23 2010, 03:12 PM) *
Tszyu doesn't belong on that list... not that I think about it, Mosley doesn't belong either. I like both fighters, but there just something missing about those two. Maybe Calzaghe belongs?

Tszyu, Calslappy, Toneless, Bowe and The Klits belong. Mosley and Morales (and Corales) do not.

The qualifier is whether a relatively reasonable case can be made that the fighter is the best of the last 20 years.

The case for Tszyu is significant.
JLUVBABY
in my opinion the problem with roy is in his prime he relyed on athletism and those cat like reflexes to go along with that punch he had... once he started to lose that edge over fighter his less than steller fundamentals started to show and that is where he finds himself in his career.. to me that is the difference between him and hopkins for the post comparing the two... i think in his mind he feels he is better cuzz he knows what he was once capable of, but fact is where he relyed on non boxing attributes in his prime hop was building his fight game and becoming a master boxer... thats why hop enjoys continued success at an advanced age and roy finds himself up shits creek... he never had the fundamentals... roy should have cashed out at heavyweight and retired... the weight loss to get back to lt heavy cut what ever prime he had left... in my opinion...
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 24 2010, 07:26 AM) *
in my opinion the problem with roy is in his prime he relyed on athletism and those cat like reflexes to go along with that punch he had... once he started to lose that edge over fighter his less than steller fundamentals started to show and that is where he finds himself in his career.. to me that is the difference between him and hopkins for the post comparing the two... i think in his mind he feels he is better cuzz he knows what he was once capable of, but fact is where he relyed on non boxing attributes in his prime hop was building his fight game and becoming a master boxer... thats why hop enjoys continued success at an advanced age and roy finds himself up shits creek... he never had the fundamentals... roy should have cashed out at heavyweight and retired... the weight loss to get back to lt heavy cut what ever prime he had left... in my opinion...

JLUV swooping in on a Christmas Eve morn and layin' it down.

BHop has been a great fighter for a long time, but last Saturday night he stepped into The ATG Club. Before that performance I would not have voted for him.

What is really interesting are the career defining fights. Tszyu v Judah, Corrales v PBF, and Pac v Morales II are great examples.
EAlbian
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 24 2010, 11:40 AM) *
What is really interesting are the career defining fights. Tszyu v Judah, Corrales v PBF, and Pac v Morales II are great examples.



My problem with Pac v Morales II was that Morales had already slipped, he was coming off a loss to Zahir Raheem. Morales v Pac I was a career defining victory for Morales. Pac's biggest and best win imo is definitely his first fight with Barerra.


The way i see Jones and Hopkins is that Jones started strong and is finishing terribly where as Hopkins start was a little weaker but his finish is much stronger than Jones'. To me, Hopkins has done more( faced/beat better opposition) in the last 8-9 years than Roy has in his entire career. Im sure roy thinks about what if he would have just given Hopkins/Toney the rematch when he was still in his prime(2001/2002) and won those fights his ATG status would be that much further solidified
EAlbian
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 25 2010, 05:07 AM) *
I can see your point about Pac v Morales I & II, but Morales slippage wasn't complete until the second Pac fight. It is interesting to note how much both Pac's and PBF's resumes have been padded with fighters slip sliding away.

I think a decent argument can be made for Barrera. Therefore he should be on the list.



I actually think that is one of the most compelling stories of 2005-2010 and beyond. I think Arum saw how Mayweather was trying guide his career and realized that he could probably take Pac down that same career path while keeping a huge percentage of his purses.. an added retirement present to himself
BigG
Morales was destroyed Zahir Raheem man..Morales was on the downside...and Zahir didn't just outbox him, he BEAT HIM UP...and he almost knocked Morales down in round 5 with a right hand, and was rocking him throughout....Morales II was a GREAT win for Manny and I give him credit for that one but he didn't beat Morales at Morales absolute prime....I consider the Junior Jones fight and the first 2 Barrera fights..the Zaragosa fight..thats Morales prime to me...but still a great win for Pac..
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (BigG @ Dec 30 2010, 07:23 AM) *
Morales was destroyed Zahir Raheem man..Morales was on the downside...and Zahir didn't just outbox him, he BEAT HIM UP...and he almost knocked Morales down in round 5 with a right hand, and was rocking him throughout....Morales II was a GREAT win for Manny and I give him credit for that one but he didn't beat Morales at Morales absolute prime....I consider the Junior Jones fight and the first 2 Barrera fights..the Zaragosa fight..thats Morales prime to me...but still a great win for Pac..


I've always maintained that Morales' prime ended when he left 122. IMO Morales at 126 and above was never "prime" as his best form was at 122.

You could see Morales struggling hard with Chi and Espadas when he moved up from 122. Not that they weren't solid guys at the time, but to me Morales had already lost a step and was getting hit a lot more than he should have.

SmartyBeardo
Ricardo Lopez deserves to be on the list. Possibly the best Mexican fighter of all time. 28 consecutive victories from 1990 to 2001, when he retired undefeated. Belt holder from 10/25/90 to 9/29/01.
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