Just a couple of points. Fedor is far from unskilled on his feet. Are his strikes as pretty as silvas? Nope, but it doesnt make him less effective.

secondly to say sak was not a great wrestler is insane. Dude have you watched his old pride fights? he beat legendary fighters regularly in or near their prime.

carlos newton
vernon white
vitor belfort
royce gracie
ryan gracie
renzo gracie
royler gracie
rampage jackson
kevin randallman
ken shamrock
igor vovchanchen


in his prime sakuraba squashes silva, and thats no insult to silva.

Agreed 100%.

Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!

You're the man, Run and Gun. I don't think I've ever disagreed with you about anything MMA-related.

One small note though, Sakuraba didn't actually beat Vovchanchyn. Technically it was a loss, though I don't know of anyone who actually counts it as such. Sakuraba dominated the much stronger Igor, even though he was coming off his epic 1 and a half hour battle with Royce earlier that evening. He gassed with about a minute and a half though, and caught a wicked beating in the last minute, which was enough for the judges to rule it a draw and demand an extra round to settle it. (This was the Grand Prix and there had to be a winner.) Sakuraba's corner refused to let him fight any longer and Igor was officially declared the winner.

I've never agreed with the draw though. Pride had the 10 kilo rule which stated that a fighter at a 10 kilo disadvantage (or more) would be given the nod in the event of a close fight. The rule was in effect that night, and Sakuraba clearly did enough to be given the fight in light of that rule.

All that aside, I give Sakuraba more credit in that loss than any victory I've ever seen out of Anderson Silva.

I really hate it when TUF noobs start disrespecting legends of the sport like Sakuraba. If not for guys like Sakuraba, Royce Gracie, Wanderlei Silva, and Fedor, where would MMA be right now? Nowhere. Pride was built on the backs of those guys. And Pride, in turn, produced most of the fighters you now see in the UFC.

your kidding me you discredit some of silvas opponents but give sak credit for beating vernon white ryan gracie. Get the out of here with that shit war. Also the vitor that just fought silva was on a better win streak than the one who fought sak yet he took sak the distance but got squashed by silva in the first. The silva that lost earlier in his career was not in his peak skillwise and like i said was not the same silva of today so lets not even go there.

Bazooka, cry winning streak all you want, but Belfort isnt the fighter he was earlier in his career. He has taken to many beatings. He was a name dana white could sell. if you care to look back before this fight happened, I called bullshit from day one. That was a joke of a fight. Maybe we should line up tank abbot with fedor and all celebrate the glorious return of fedor as the best heavyweight in the world.

The belfort fight was nothing to brag about dude, it was a bullshit fight.

warlord, your right about the igor fight, for some reason I was remembering sak getting the decision.

But I mean if you really want to compair records. Guy Mezger was about the same level of rich franklin as a fighter, and sak beat his ass.

Ok lets compair Mezger quit after 15 mins because of some dispute over the time limit. Anderson KTFO of Franklin and rearanged his nose in the process. You tell me who looked better.

Sak beat an already past his prime Royce who hadn't fought on over 5 yrs in an hour and half fight c'mom lol. Royce like Fujita couldnt throw a correct punch if his life depended on it and by the time they met the sport had past Royce up big time. And Ryan c'mon man just because you have the Gracie name doesn't make you a world beater let me see i guess Roger gracie is an elite fighter too. LOL

The best Gracie ever was Rickson hands down even Royce and Renzo would admit to that.

I think we can all agree on that. And Rickson refused to fight Sakuraba. That right there ought to tell you something. The man watched 5 of his kin get humiliated, and I do mean humiliated, at the hands of Kazushi Sakuraba. Sakuraba played around with Royce's gi, spanked Ryan, broke Renzo's arm, beat the shit out of Royler and had him butt-scooting around the ring, black and blue, like a little bitch, begging Saku to make it a ground fight.

And, somehow, Rickson couldn't get himself up for the fight? I love Rickson, absolutely. But the Gracie's are some of the proudest people I've ever seen. Ever. I'd even qualify it as arrogance. They just truly believe their family is the absolute best, period. So it should be a testament to just what a bad ass a prime Saku really was, when the top Gracie refused to fight him after he literally wiped his ass with half the family.

Prime Sakuraba arm-bars a prime Anderson Silva. It's no disrespect to Anderson to say that. It's just the truth.


I won't bother to debate Saku's victory over Vitor to Anderson's. Anderson won by front kick. Saku did an M. Bison (Street Fighter II) flying face stomp on Vitor, and literally took his heart in that fight. Saku wins on cool points there.

Saku had better entrances too. Anderson comes out to some gay DMX and gay hugs Steven Segal before his fights. Come on.

P.S. Guy Mezger was a better fighter than Rich Franklin, imo, regardless of what their records say. Guy got shafted many, many times, coming out on the wrong end of decisions that he clearly should have won. Who did Rich Franklin ever beat that was in their prime?

Come one war i thought we was gonna keep it real. You ask anyone what was more impressive a double stomp that Saku did which didn't do sh*t to Vitor or a f*cking front kick to the jaw that knocked Vitor the f*ck out cold.

Lets keep it real bro.

Silva doesn't need any wrestling type entrances he's the p4p best in the world knocking fools out like nothing.

Give it time though im sure you will come to appreciate Silva's craft when he's done.

I said Saku won on cool points. And he did. Are we really gonna sit here and debate cool points now? Lol. Come on, bro.



He doesn't need 'em, but he sure could use 'em. Coming to the ring and stinking up the goddamn joint on multiple occasions. There's a reason the fans boo his ass like nobody's business. They don't like him.



I appreciate him. I just don't over-appreciate him. I appreciate him for what he's actually done, not for what Dana White and the UFC would have you believe he's done.

Most of these so called MMA fans(TUF Noobs) don't know sh*t about fighting you now that. They boo fighters within 1 min if they don't start swinging for the fences.

Thats exactly my point warlord, one of sak forgotten victories is over a fighter who was better than one of silvas best opponents ever.

Silva is a very good fighter, but he is also a product of a very weak division, and the UFC hype machine.

Who Vovchanchyn? Better than Henderson.....Hell NO.

Vovchancyn was a good fighter but with very limited ground skills. Like Fedor he was wreckless with his stand up he carried good power but with very little technique behind it.

Hahahahahahah better than Hendo you guys are too much.

I think he was referring to Guy Mezger being better than Rich Franklin.

As for Hendo, Silva has a victory over an old Dan Henderson and Sakuraba has a victory over a young Rampage Jackson, so now what?

I've posted it before if anyone cares to go back and look; Sakuraba has a MUCH higher finish rate over his opponents than Anderson Silva, and he has the better comp record as well. So semantically you can argue what you will, but statistically Sakuraba had a better prime career than Anderson. Though Anderson is still close to his prime and has a chance to shore up his legacy, if only he'll grow a pair and fight the champion at 205 instead of hoping to beat up on an overblown welterweight.

Haha War you can't pull that one on me bro. Rampage had not reached his peak when Sak beat him anyone even a TUFFY could tell you that.

Hendo had just KTFO of Wanderlie and lost the belt to Rampage in a very close five rd war when Anderson whooped him with ease.

Sak also has like 12 more losses than Silva so.

Don't get me wrong i like Sak he was a bad dude but like i tell GSP fans there's no shame in being second best to Anderson Silva.

I would like to know when exactly you think rampages prime was. Dude, I nor warlord started watching mma when tuff started. In fact I have followed mma for almost 20 years. silva is a great fighter, but the man cant carry saks jock strap.

I know, I thought I was pretty clear though. Rampage was sub-prime against Sakuraba and Henderson was post-prime against Anderson. Dan going 5 hard rounds with a plodding, one dimensional fighter like the UFC-version of Rampage Jackson does nothing to lend credibility to the implied notion that he was somehow still in his prime against Anderson. He wasn't. Dan is old, nothing can change that.

Him KO'ing Wanderlei means nothing either. Prime Wanderlei wiped his ass with Dan Henderson. Henderson only KO'd the brain-scrambled Wanderlei presented to him by Mirko Cro-Cop. (Prime Wanderlei also wiped his ass with Mirko.)

Anderson didn't "whoop him with ease" either. Dan beat Anderson up in Round 1, and won the round cleanly. His main problem was the same problem he always has at middleweight: He gassed. The weigh cut kills Dan, and he's always been shit at middle. He belongs at 205, and he himself has said so on numerous occasions.


Saku's prime was effectively destroyed by his constant wars with much biggers fighters who outweighed him by 20-30lbs. I can count the number of times he fought an opponent his size or smaller on my hand. Literally. Pride killed Saku. But it doesn't change the fact he was a great, great fighter, and one that would've tooled any version of Anderson Silva you put in the ring with him.


But there is shame, apparently, in ranking Anderson Silva anything less than GOAT to his 2 fans left. Why? Is it so hard to admit the man has obvious flaws in his game, and despite it, he remains one of the top P4P fighters in the world? I don't think that is an insult. I think it is reality.

I once thought Royce Gracie was the greatest fighter that ever lived, lol. That outta tell you when I started watching. I remember seeing UFC 1 with my brother and thinking it was the greatest thing ever. Going to Japan and being there when Pride took off took it to a whole new level.

In fact, I'll tell you guys a secret. I wasn't originally a Sakuraba fan. I liked the Gracies at that time, because I was still young and dumb and thought they were the best and Sakuraba had shit on them. But watching him in action at the Pride Grand Prix, I mean damn, you had no choice but to love the guy. His fighting spirit, his showmanship, his good nature. I really miss those times, now that I think back to it. Saku, Igor, Wandy, Fedor, Big Nog, Rampage (when he was still slamming mother fuckers), and then Ninja and Shogun, goddamn those were the days.

Now we get Brock Lesnar with a box-top haircut and a penis tattoo on his chest, and some chubby, Big Mac eating Michael Jackson wannabe dancing all around the ring with his ugly ass. What a shame.

Who we talking here? Big Country Nelson?

See comments like that just make me laugh no one in there right minds will say sh*t like that.....well maybe except for Silva haters.

As i have stated in the past i've been watching MMA since 96/97 when Vitor burst into the scene. I was actually anti-UFC in the early 00's all i watched was Pride that is unitl i found out Anderson got signed to the UFC and was gonna wreck havoc on the MW division.

War i like how all of a sudden when Page came to the UFC he turned into a one diminnsional fighter yet he had just taken out Liddell who was arguably the #1 LHW and on a brutal tear in the UFC.

C'mon man if where gonna try to discredit every fighter to discredit Silva's opponents i can do that too with any other fighter.

Look fellas i know the sport is still very much in it's infancy so to find truly great fighters in this sport could be difficult. Anderson, Fedor(despite my bashing of him LOL), GSP, Sak to name a few but alot of there comp might just be very good fighers but not great.

In my opninion Anderson is the greatets ever SO FAR but not because the UFC and the hype machine says so but because the run he's had and the level of his skill and the way he wins most of the time.

Though i won't say that i think he'll hold that title for 50-60 yrs like Robinson did in boxing but for now he's the best ever. Im not trying to make you guys agree with me but it's fun being able to discuss MMA with ppl who actaully have a bit of knowledge about it.

Im not a silva hater, just not a huge fan either. I try to keep things in perspective. Styles make fights and sak is all wrong for silva

Correct me if I'm wrong, but every time GSP comes off a win, the commentators jump in and say he's the best in the world right now. So who is it; Silva or GSP?

Yeah i agree they do tend to do that sh*t especially bitch ass Joe Rogan hate that muthaf*cker but most have Anderson as p4p #1.

I like GSP how could you not but the one thing that gets me about him is that ever since he got knocked out against Serra in the first fight he's been very gun shy and thats a shame cuase he actually had real good hands and power. I think he knows his chin ain't up to par so he plays it safe all time and takes it to the ground which is his comfort zone.

I peronaly believe that GSP doubt himself against Anderson thats why he's been so hesitant to move up and is now fighting guys he already beat. I think GSP knows he has no chance standing with Anderson so he'll go the the ground but he may feel that Anderson's size and BJJ might get him in some trouble on the ground aswell. Basically GSP knows to beat Silva he has to avoid standing and keep him on the ground for 5 rds ala Sonnen but one mistake on the feet or the ground can cost him big. From what i've heard of GSP during interviews when asked about Silva he does not sound like a man who believes he can beat Silva but rather a man who has been pressed by the media and promoter(UFC)to move up.

Yeah i agree they do tend to do that sh*t especially bitch ass Joe Rogan hate that muthaf*cker but most have Anderson as p4p #1.

I like GSP how could you not but the one thing that gets me about him is that ever since he got knocked out against Serra in the first fight he's been very gun shy and thats a shame cuase he actually had real good hands and power. I think he knows his chin ain't up to par so he plays it safe all time and takes it to the ground which is his comfort zone.

I peronaly believe that GSP doubt himself against Anderson thats why he's been so hesitant to move up and is now fighting guys he already beat. I think GSP knows he has no chance standing with Anderson so he'll go the the ground but he may feel that Anderson's size and BJJ might get him in some trouble on the ground aswell. Basically GSP knows to beat Silva he has to avoid standing and keep him on the ground for 5 rds ala Sonnen but one mistake on the feet or the ground can cost him big. From what i've heard of GSP during interviews when asked about Silva he does not sound like a man who believes he can beat Silva but rather a man who has been pressed by the media and promoter(UFC)to move up.

sorry doube post

Yeah ever since the Serra loss you can see he tightened up his defense in the stand up. Unfortunately that makes him a bore standing up. Even with his improved defense though, Silva is light years ahead of him with his striking, and one shot could end it all.

GSP had/has real good stand up but he doesn't believe it it so that makes it even less effective. But i agree he won't wanna stand up with Anderson for even a min cause he will go to sleep.

As for the commentators perpetually looping comments such as that, another one that shits me is Joe ROgan and his "if you ever wanted to design a fighter to beat Silva/GSP/Lesnar etc... it would be a guy like this". Every fucking time one of the big names fight he trolls out that shit. The last 3 or 4 fights for Silva and GSP he has made this comment. Get some new material to hype the fight dude.

Fuck Rogan, now you've got MMA writers doing the same thing

http://www.ufc.com/news/The-Breakdown-Penn-Fitch

"BJ Penn’s UFC 127 bout with Jon Fitch may very well be the toughest stylistic matchup of his career. If I wanted to create a prototype welterweight to give Penn problems, it would be a very big, athletic wrestler who has endless cardio, good standup, and prefers to take down opponents and grind away a conservative victory."

Wasn't GSP then Hughes the worst stylistic matchup for Penn. LOL

I know that was a writer but they need to get rid of Rogan asap.

Liddell was always over-rated in my book. Another one-dimensional fighter. You can check my post history to confirm that. I was one of the few guys on this board to pick Rampage over Liddell in brutal fashion. Rampage KO'ing Liddell doesn't mean much in my book. That's what he should've done. Doesn't mean he isn't one dimensional. It just means he was better at that dimension than Chuck.


Sure we can. I mentioned Dan being old against Silva because you said Rampage was young against Sakuraba. Fire with fire, my friend. I personally don't like playing that game, but I'm not above it.


And there are many here who disagree. Doesn't make them nut-huggers or haters. It just makes them of differing opinion.


Agreed. No hard feelings here. It would be boring if everyone had the same opinions.

By the way, just to put it out there, I don't think Anderson Silva has evolved much past his Pride days. I just think he's had the right match-ups. He nearly shit the bed against Chael Sonnen, and proved why I picked Sonnen in the first place. Anderson is mentally weak, and can be taken down at will by any fighter whose willing to sack up and go for it.

In Japan there were plenty, because of that Samurai spirit you still find in fighters there. In the UFC... not so much. But the weaknesses are still there. And I still see them.

[quote name='Warlord' date='Feb 22 2011, 12:59 AM' post='513184']
Liddell was always over-rated in my book. Another one-dimensional fighter. You can check my post history to confirm that. I was one of the few guys on this board to pick Rampage over Liddell in brutal fashion. Rampage KO'ing Liddell doesn't mean much in my book. That's what he should've done. Doesn't mean he isn't one dimensional. It just means he was better at that dimension than Chuck.

By the way, just to put it out there, I don't think Anderson Silva has evolved much past his Pride days. I just think he's had the right match-ups. He nearly shit the bed against Chael Sonnen, and proved why I picked Sonnen in the first place. Anderson is mentally weak, and can be taken down at will by any fighter whose willing to sack up and go for it.
[/quote/]

Regardless of what anyone thinks the matter of the fact was that Liddell was highly ranked and on a roll before Page stopped him. I also picked and was happy as hell when Rampage took him out.

But i gotta disgree big time with you thinking Anderson is weak mentally. Vitor is a mentally weak fighter not Silva. He was getting beat for 4 and half rds a fighter liek Vitor or most others would have just given up Anderson never did and pulled off the win very very few figters in MMA can do that right now. The reason he gets taken down is cause his takedown defense is his bigggest weakness plain and simple it has nothing to do with hom being mentally weak.

I also disgree with you saying he's been carefully matched c'mon he's beaten everyone at MW and with the exception of Chael he's beaten everyone rather easly and will do the same to that POS Sonnen if they rematch. How could you say he's had peferct matchmaking when he's beaten everyone there is to beat in his division including the former LHW champ.

Anderson is on a 14 fight winning streak that inlcudes all of the top ranked MW in his division but like i stated earlier because this sport is still very young it hasn't produced a shitload of greats yet with the excpetion of the guys like Anderson, GSP, Fedor and a few others. Most of those guys wins will be against very good fighters but maybe not great yet.

And as for you saying Anderson hasn't evolved much past his Pride days thats just way off.

You mean to tell me that Anderson from the Ryo chonan fight would have beaten Franklin, Hendo, Marquadt, Griffin the way he did? hahahahahahahahhahha

I don't think you thought about that one before typing it bro. LOL

Anybody watching Henderson / Feijao tonight?

Stream is acting gay tonight, only catching pieces of the fight. Hopefully things will settle down here in the second.

Sigh. It's getting harder and harder to watch illegal streams these days.

Hendo the new champ! Another brutal KO with that right hand of his!

Hendo is a bad dude that right hand ain't nothing pretty but it seems to almost always do the trick.

Prety crappy strikeforce card in general.

Definitely , Hendo has the power to stop just about anyone with that right of his

Thats a very heavy right hand.