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ViperSniper
Both fighters seem to want to fight soon but neither have an opponent yet, so why not fight eachother like they were originally meant to? I've always wanted to see this fight and always thought Williams would have beatin Pavlik.

But now that both fighters face adversity, do your original prediction of the fight changed or has it stayed the same? Pavlik has been inactive not fighting since his loss to Martinez mainly due to alcohol problems going to rehab as a result, and Williams also coming off a loss to Martinez in one of the most devastating fashions possible.

Which fighters do you think have to over come more or who still have more to offer?

So if they were to fight at Middleweight now who would win?

Got Williams still.
Fitz
Would have said Williams easily a while back, now I am still picking Williams but it's close to a pick 'em.

I still can't believe Williams got KTFO by Sergio Martinez in 2 rounds, lol. Pavlik is in with a shot after that.
JLUVBABY
when the fight was first announced i leaned towards pavlik and as long as he maintains his skill set that doesnt change... williams is not hopkins number 1 and 2 martinez didnt win that fight with pav going away.... pavlik was in it and in my opinion that fight was close... not that that matters when comparing these 2 fighters but i say that to say pavlik if not equal to skill set with martinez is not far from him (and keep in mind that martinez fight was fought with a pavlik that had personal issues)... i dont think martinez punches as hard as pavlik and id have to think somewhere in the fight pavlik would land.... not that williams would be 1 punched again but i dont think pavlik would just land that one time through out the fight... i can see pavlik pounding out a mid to late round ko or a ud over 10 or 12 rounds... not to mention pavs a full fledge middleweight... i think he'd be too big for williams... i think williams was a legit welter despite his height....
edd098
can pavlik still make 160?
Fitz
JLuv. I actually think Martinez skill set is much better than Pavlik's. I think that's kind of a left hand slap in the face to Martinez. The fight was close until round 8, after that Martinez basically swept the last 4 rounds to win it clearly.
caneman
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 02:57 AM) *
JLuv. I actually think Martinez skill set is much better than Pavlik's. I think that's kind of a left hand slap in the face to Martinez. The fight was close until round 8, after that Martinez basically swept the last 4 rounds to win it clearly.


I agree with this! I picked Williams & just pray that he isn't damaged goods after being stopped like that! I guess based off the Martinez, Pavlik could have a punchers chance, after all, when a fighter with a high output like Williams(or Pacman)goes @ it., he leaves himself open to counters, it's just a fact!
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 01:57 AM) *
JLuv. I actually think Martinez skill set is much better than Pavlik's. I think that's kind of a left hand slap in the face to Martinez. The fight was close until round 8, after that Martinez basically swept the last 4 rounds to win it clearly.


8 rounds of even fighting from a guy that probably got plastered after training leading into that fight is pretty good... i wouldnt call that a slap to martinez... i like martinez but he had that one fight where he cleaned up williams... i dont want to say he getting too much respect for one fight but its becoming border line...
caneman
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 16 2011, 04:26 AM) *
8 rounds of even fighting from a guy that probably got plastered after training leading into that fight is pretty good... i wouldnt call that a slap to martinez... i like martinez but he had that one fight where he cleaned up williams... i dont want to say he getting too much respect for one fight but its becoming border line...



Don't you think Martinez's last 5-6 fights are impressive as a whole? On the one fight you speak of, other then Martinez in the 1st fight, he was never really visibly hurt before!
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (caneman @ Feb 16 2011, 03:31 AM) *
Don't you think Martinez's last 5-6 fights are impressive as a whole? On the one fight you speak of, other then Martinez in the 1st fight, he was never really visibly hurt before!


im not taking away from martinez in no way shape or form... but my point to fitz was that pavlik, for a guy that had the problem he had, did very well in that fight.... and if not for a few tactical errors, or, errors you can say he couldnt avoid or what have you he's in that fight... to say calling pavlik being in that fight is a slap in the face to martinez i dont understand that... better skill set doesnt always mean the better fighter... there are other tangibles involved such as heart, determination etc that decides the outcome of a fight besides how skilled a fighter is... i can name countless fights where the more supremely skilled fighter lost... just saying... i dont have every fight memorized but from what i recall that fight was closer than pavlik losing every round after 8... and i was rooting for martinez in that fight... if i remember correctly i had martinez by 2 or 3 rounds... not a white wash by any means.. and if pavlik trained under those conditions that says a lot about the guy...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Feb 16 2011, 04:09 AM) *
Agree. I don't think Pavlik should be compared with Martinez or many other top fighters when it comes to skills, as he is very limited and ordinary to me. Other than when Martinez slowed in the middle rounds, and perhaps got too relaxed and got dropped, but other than that, he beat Pavlik up good and had time to have some fun along the way. I do think it's a little unfair for Martinez who actually has decent skills, tools and smarts to be compared to Pavlik who is pretty one-dimensional.


better skills dont always win the fight... you guys know this...
Lil-lightsout
I would not be surprised to see Pavlik get the KO. I honestly think PW getting KTFO might have ruined him. Sure I could be wrong, but damn he is going to be questioning his chin now, AND he probably is going to try and change up his style now which to me will only cause him conflict and confusion at this point. Maybe if PW can get a few good wins under his belt by fighting easier competition first, then he can rebuild his confidence and move forward. Hopefully I am wrong and PW is still a confident young man and can move on now and give us some more exciting fights.


Jluv...I love your Mosley sig.
caneman
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Feb 16 2011, 05:40 AM) *
I would not be surprised to see Pavlik get the KO. I honestly think PW getting KTFO might have ruined him. Sure I could be wrong, but damn he is going to be questioning his chin now, AND he probably is going to try and change up his style now which to me will only cause him conflict and confusion at this point. Maybe if PW can get a few good wins under his belt by fighting easier competition first, then he can rebuild his confidence and move forward. Hopefully I am wrong and PW is still a confident young man and can move on now and give us some more exciting fights.


Jluv...I love your Mosley sig.


I believe there are a few things PWill could do that would be a change yet he might be able to pull it off & it's pure basics...turn his body sideways with his chin tucked behind his left shoulder & another that could work added to the above is fight long & pump the jab & throw those straight rights right down the pipe ala PBF vs Mosley & that could be a few small adjustments that could actually work for him IMO!
Fitz
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 16 2011, 09:13 PM) *
better skills dont always win the fight... you guys know this...


Yes we know this JLuv, but we were more commenting on your statement that Pavlik is almost on par with Martinez in the skills department. I know it doesn't win you fights, but I think Martinez is more skilled than Pavlik.
Pavlik put on a decent fight with Martinez, but was outclassed. I think Pavlik is in with a shot now against Williams, which is kind of funny, because when Williams was at 147-154, I was saying I would take Williams, and I remember some people thought I was being dumb, haha. Times have changed, and now I am giving Pavlik more of a shot, though would still have to slightly edge Williams.
STEVENSKI
If Pavlik has gotten sober & is really working AA's 12 step program he is in with a big chance. Those programes change your life completely provided you give it 100%. If he is he will be back to peak fitness & focused on winning.

JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 05:12 AM) *
Yes we know this JLuv, but we were more commenting on your statement that Pavlik is almost on par with Martinez in the skills department. I know it doesn't win you fights, but I think Martinez is more skilled than Pavlik.
Pavlik put on a decent fight with Martinez, but was outclassed. I think Pavlik is in with a shot now against Williams, which is kind of funny, because when Williams was at 147-154, I was saying I would take Williams, and I remember some people thought I was being dumb, haha. Times have changed, and now I am giving Pavlik more of a shot, though would still have to slightly edge Williams.


is this fight signed?.... as far as skill level, i suppose maybe i worded that a little wrong but comparingthe 2 in my opinion is like comparing chavez and meldrick taylor if that makes sense to you... 1 has a much greater skill set (taylor) than the other but you can equally compare the two... they match up evenly once everything is compared... that was my point... if they rematched and pavlik was on his game there is no way i would rule him out in a rematch... and i guess we differ cuzz i dont think pavlike was outclassed in that fight... outfought down the stretch maybe but not outclassed... B. Hop outclassed him...
Fitz
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 16 2011, 11:03 PM) *
If Pavlik has gotten sober & is really working AA's 12 step program he is in with a big chance. Those programes change your life completely provided you give it 100%. If he is he will be back to peak fitness & focused on winning.


Yes, but if he gets himself right, he will still be back at square one. Just another B level fighter.

QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 16 2011, 11:11 PM) *
is this fight signed?.... as far as skill level, i suppose maybe i worded that a little wrong but comparingthe 2 in my opinion is like comparing chavez and meldrick taylor if that makes sense to you... 1 has a much greater skill set (taylor) than the other but you can equally compare the two... they match up evenly once everything is compared... that was my point... if they rematched and pavlik was on his game there is no way i would rule him out in a rematch... and i guess we differ cuzz i dont think pavlike was outclassed in that fight... outfought down the stretch maybe but not outclassed... B. Hop outclassed him...


Yeah I can see what you are saying. Thanks JBaby.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 11:39 PM) *
Yes, but if he gets himself right, he will still be back at square one. Just another B level fighter.


I think you are being overly harsh. Who has Pavlik lost to? He has lost 2 fights to highly skilled & cagey boxers.

I know you hate him but he is more than a B level fighter.
gravytrain
Pavlik could beat Williams if Williams doesn't learn to box like what he's; a tall fighter. the guy has good height and reach but he fights like he's 5'9". the big problem is that Pavlik might not even be able to make 160 anymore and if he does it's going to be hard on him, somebody with the output of Williams could give him some serious trouble and tire him out.

JLUVBABY
i got to say this... Martinez has one really spectacular night and all of a sudden he's a killer?... he's a good fighter but its not like he's just icing these guys like he did williams on a regular... Dudes a very solid fighter but now i think its time to see how he builds on that win.. one fight dont make a killer....
Fitz
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 17 2011, 09:09 AM) *
I think you are being overly harsh. Who has Pavlik lost to? He has lost 2 fights to highly skilled & cagey boxers.

I know you hate him but he is more than a B level fighter.


I think I am being extremely fair, there is no way Pavlik is an A level fighter.

I don't think people are calling guys like Abraham and Kessler A level guys. Pavlik is not much better than them, and cut from the same cloth. He is average, if he was European everyone would agree. He isn't that good.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 04:37 PM) *
I think I am being extremely fair, there is no way Pavlik is an A level fighter.

I don't think people are calling guys like Abraham and Kessler A level guys. Pavlik is not much better than them, and cut from the same cloth. He is average, if he was European everyone would agree. He isn't that good.


guys like kessler and abraham would have a chance against martinez too.... you really think that one fight vs williams makes martinez an A level fighter fitz?... come on now... he's good but he needs to build on his win... right now, in my opinion, you cant say he's a b level type fighter but is he an lister?... he's one of those guys thats in linbo between high level b and the elite fighter... in my opinion...
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 05:37 PM) *
I think I am being extremely fair, there is no way Pavlik is an A level fighter.


Fucking hater. laugh.gif Everything you say about Pavlik is extremely biased.
Fitz
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 17 2011, 09:57 AM) *
guys like kessler and abraham would have a chance against martinez too.... you really think that one fight vs williams makes martinez an A level fighter fitz?... come on now... he's good but he needs to build on his win... right now, in my opinion, you cant say he's a b level type fighter but is he an lister?... he's one of those guys thats in linbo between high level b and the elite fighter... in my opinion...


JLuv, you keep putting words in my mouth. I haven't even mentioned on how good I think Martinez is in this thread, other than I think he is more skilled than Pavlik, but I am talking purely about Pavlik as a fighter and this has nothing to do with Martinez.

I know B level fighters can beat A grade fighters. Guys like Maidana, Mayorga, Margarito etc are examples of this. I don't know where I rate Martinez. You are right, he probably is in between, but I am not even commenting about Martinez being an A lister, lol.
This is all about Pavlik.
Fitz
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Feb 17 2011, 10:08 AM) *
Fucking hater. laugh.gif Everything you say about Pavlik is extremely biased.


Haha, no I am not. I said ages ago he looks like an alcoholic before it came out, I said he is a one dimensional fighter and ordinary when people were saying how great he is and talking about Fighter of the Year. It's just negative things, but facts. Definitely not being bias here laugh.gif

JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 05:35 PM) *
Haha, no I am not. I said ages ago he looks like an alcoholic before it came out, I said he is a one dimensional fighter and ordinary when people were saying how great he is and talking about Fighter of the Year. It's just negative things, but facts. Definitely not being bias here laugh.gif


fitz when i told my story about the pool hall in kentucky i go to when im out there every body laughed.... that was back in 09... imagine if he didnt have that issue... pavlik has other attributes that make up for his lack of skill set if you want to say it that way... lol... his attributes make him a very skilled fighter even if its in a crude kind of way...
Fitz
Yes I agree with that. His right was a pretty good equaliser.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 05:33 PM) *
JLuv, you keep putting words in my mouth. I haven't even mentioned on how good I think Martinez is in this thread, other than I think he is more skilled than Pavlik, but I am talking purely about Pavlik as a fighter and this has nothing to do with Martinez.

I know B level fighters can beat A grade fighters. Guys like Maidana, Mayorga, Margarito etc are examples of this. I don't know where I rate Martinez. You are right, he probably is in between, but I am not even commenting about Martinez being an A lister, lol.
This is all about Pavlik.


not putting words in your mouth... lol... but i dont think comparing pavlik to martinez is far fetched at all...
Fitz
No it isn't, but like I said. I was focusing on the skill level between them, lol.

Just like if I was to say Khan is much more skilful than Maidana, but obviously looking at the fight and comparing them in a fight, it isn't far fetched, lol.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Sober Pavlik beats punch drunk Williams. laugh.gif

OK OK so maybe Paul isn't quite that bad, but like Slim mentioned in another thread I fear Paul's punch resistance is gone. I think we saw shades of it in the Cintron fight.

JLUVBABY
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Feb 16 2011, 08:16 PM) *
Sober Pavlik beats punch drunk Williams. laugh.gif

OK OK so maybe Paul isn't quite that bad, but like Slim mentioned in another thread I fear Paul's punch resistance is gone. I think we saw shades of it in the Cintron fight.


the way williams fights with his chin out it was a matter of time before someone threw the right punch to exploit it... the way he throws a million punches kept a lot of those guys off him long enough to no be able to exploit that issue with him... personally id like to see a 3rd fight between martinez and williams... they are both capable of knocking the other out... i.m.o...
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2011, 06:35 PM) *
Haha, no I am not. I said ages ago he looks like an alcoholic before it came out, I said he is a one dimensional fighter and ordinary when people were saying how great he is and talking about Fighter of the Year. It's just negative things, but facts. Definitely not being bias here laugh.gif


You know I was just messing with you. Though he has two solid wins over JT, what else has he done so great? I think many of us were expecting great/good things from him after those wins. But looking at it now, it is clear to see though he is a decent fighter, he really is nothing special. Look how Hopkins just plain embarrassed him, Pavlik looked lost in there. JT finishes off Pavlik early on like he should have, and we would never even be discussing this. Also maybe with his alcohol problem is hindering his performances too which is even making him look even worse. I thought overall is best performance was the rematch with JT.

Pavlik needs to lick this alcohol problem, get a quality trainer with quality sparring, and hit the tanning bed and he's all set for a successful comeback.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Feb 16 2011, 10:11 PM) *
You know I was just messing with you. Though he has two solid wins over JT, what else has he done so great? I think many of us were expecting great/good things from him after those wins. But looking at it now, it is clear to see though he is a decent fighter, he really is nothing special. Look how Hopkins just plain embarrassed him, Pavlik looked lost in there. JT finishes off Pavlik early on like he should have, and we would never even be discussing this. Also maybe with his alcohol problem is hindering his performances too which is even making him look even worse. I thought overall is best performance was the rematch with JT.

Pavlik needs to lick this alcohol problem, get a quality trainer with quality sparring, and hit the tanning bed and he's all set for a successful comeback.


his pale skin is part of his strategy, the lights reflect off of him and blind his opponents.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 16 2011, 09:40 PM) *
the way williams fights with his chin out it was a matter of time before someone threw the right punch to exploit it... the way he throws a million punches kept a lot of those guys off him long enough to no be able to exploit that issue with him... personally id like to see a 3rd fight between martinez and williams... they are both capable of knocking the other out... i.m.o...


I don't know if Williams hits hard enough to keep Pavlik off of him. And I'm not sure that Williams is even that gifted technically, he makes a lot of mistakes. The reason Williams kept a lot of guys away from him was that fighting at 147 and 154 he was freakishly tall. He's still tall at MW but everytime he goes up a division that advantage is negated.


I'm not sure why you think Williams can knock Martinez out, I've never seen him spark an elite level boxer.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Feb 16 2011, 09:32 PM) *
I don't know if Williams hits hard enough to keep Pavlik off of him. And I'm not sure that Williams is even that gifted technically, he makes a lot of mistakes. The reason Williams kept a lot of guys away from him was that fighting at 147 and 154 he was freakishly tall. He's still tall at MW but everytime he goes up a division that advantage is negated.


I'm not sure why you think Williams can knock Martinez out, I've never seen him spark an elite level boxer.


i think they both are capable of knocking the other out... they've both had the other down, it's just that the last time one went down martinez did the knocking down and landed right punch causing the knocking out... im very confident in saying martinez gets hit right by williams we'll get similar results... williams may not be a one punch knockout puncher but his punch is respectable... the right punch lands and thats all a fighter needs is a respectable punch, they dont have to be ko punchers to land a devastating blow.... take williams ko for instance... im not calling it luck what im saying is it was the right punch at the exact right moment for deliver that type of effect... that role could very easily reverse in a rematch...
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 17 2011, 01:44 AM) *
i think they both are capable of knocking the other out... they've both had the other down, it's just that the last time one went down martinez did the knocking down and landed right punch causing the knocking out... im very confident in saying martinez gets hit right by williams we'll get similar results... williams may not be a one punch knockout puncher but his punch is respectable... the right punch lands and thats all a fighter needs is a respectable punch, they dont have to be ko punchers to land a devastating blow.... take williams ko for instance... im not calling it luck what im saying is it was the right punch at the exact right moment for deliver that type of effect... that role could very easily reverse in a rematch...


Williams put him down but that's nothing, that looked more like Martinez was off balance. i see Williams losing again probably by a wide decision or late stoppage.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Feb 17 2011, 12:48 AM) *
Williams put him down but that's nothing, that looked more like Martinez was off balance. i see Williams losing again probably by a wide decision or late stoppage.


williams may lose a third match... im just saying regardless of the ko in the last fight i think williams is more than capable of contending with martinez... wide decision for martinez?... only if williams is shell shocked form the ko... barring a one punch ko in their fights i think they would always fight a close battle... they could fight 10 times and no matter who wins or how in the ten i think they'd all be descent fights...
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 17 2011, 01:57 AM) *
williams may lose a third match... im just saying regardless of the ko in the last fight i think williams is more than capable of contending with martinez... wide decision for martinez?... only if williams is shell shocked form the ko... barring a one punch ko in their fights i think they would always fight a close battle... they could fight 10 times and no matter who wins or how in the ten i think they'd all be descent fights...


there was some luck in that punch from Martinez of course but that shit wasn't random, he's studied Williams and has his number. i have no problem seeing them fight again but i really see Martinez winning soundly unless Williams changes his team around.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Feb 17 2011, 01:14 AM) *
there was some luck in that punch from Martinez of course but that shit wasn't random, he's studied Williams and has his number. i have no problem seeing them fight again but i really see Martinez winning soundly unless Williams changes his team around.

like i said, and i could be dead wrong... but barring a one punch ko i can see williams getting with martinez and making a close fight win or lose... as we have agreed on in another thread i think williams becomes a better fighter if he switches to a manny steward... id be interested to see what steward could do to williams..
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 17 2011, 02:20 AM) *
like i said, and i could be dead wrong... but barring a one punch ko i can see williams getting with martinez and making a close fight win or lose... as we have agreed on in another thread i think williams becomes a better fighter if he switches to a manny steward... id be interested to see what steward could do to williams..


teach him to fight tall and be about untouchable in his weight classes of 147-154 lol. Cotto is gonna be gone sooner rather than later and he's not getting with Williams, i think Steward would like working with him too because all he really needs is to fight tall and he'll be nice.

well there's a lot that can happen in a fight, i just don't think Williams will beat him though. Martinez just knows what to expect and Williams doesn't want to bring anything new to the table.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 17 2011, 03:20 AM) *
like i said, and i could be dead wrong... but barring a one punch ko i can see williams getting with martinez and making a close fight win or lose... as we have agreed on in another thread i think williams becomes a better fighter if he switches to a manny steward... id be interested to see what steward could do to williams..


That is the intangible I guess, seeing how Williams has been affected by that brutal KO. I guess none of us will know (including Williams) until we see him fight again and then maybe we can make a better judgement.

Me if I'm gonna call it I see some fall off in Paul and I thought we saw glimpses of it in the Cintron fight before that dim shit Kermit frog leaped out of the ring.
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