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blackbelt2003
Over the years I've been noticing a pattern emerging, one that didn't seem quite as relevant years ago.


Now boxing has always had it's megastars, the Ali's, the Tyson's, the Leonard's etc


And to a certain extent, once a fighter reaches 'megastar' status, they naturally make different career decisions to what they'd make if they were still young up-and-comers or Joe Blow scrapping for a few dollars.


But, to me, the whole mindset of today's megastars has eclipsed even the Tyson era.


Tyson at least fought regularly, defending his title against all oncomers, ducking no-one (some might argue Lennox later on, but I digress) and advancing his legacy along with his bank balance.


But somewhere between Tyson and De La Hoya, it's all gone awry.


The modern pattern seems to be:


1/ Win a title belt.
2/ Defend said title belt with regularity and work your way up the P4P ladder with impressive victories. This will generally be remembered as the 'golden' era of your career (i.e. May at 130, Shane at 135, DLH at 147 etc)
3/ Achieve a career defining fight, usually at the same weight but maybe against a marquee opponent a weight or two up.
4/ As the media go ga-ga over your performance and elevate you to the top spot p4p, announce that you "no longer care about titles, and are all about making fights that make money."
5/ Seriously decrease your schedule, fight once or twice per year, and only against hand picked, high reward, low risk opponents.
6/ Repeat for half-a-decade.
7/ Retire, claiming you are the GOAT, but without any substance to your theory.
8/ Complain the media are hating/racist/biased (delete as appropriate) and say you'd wipe the floor with Robinson/Ali/Moore/all time great of your choice.


Too many of today's superstars have or are following this pattern or something mighty like it, and this, more than anything else, is killing the game IMO.


A certain few fighters, like Hopkins, cared more about their legacy and their place in boxing history than dollar signs, and managed to earn decent money whilst racking up title legacies and big victories, but the majority seem to want to follow the pattern above.

I'm worried how many fighters seem to leave their ambition behind at their original weight class and waste away years of their prime wallowing in the fleeting moments of greatness they showed as young men in their early 20's.



Thoughs? Culprits?



Black
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Feb 19 2011, 04:47 PM) *
Over the years I've been noticing a pattern emerging, one that didn't seem quite as relevant years ago.


Now boxing has always had it's megastars, the Ali's, the Tyson's, the Leonard's etc


And to a certain extent, once a fighter reaches 'megastar' status, they naturally make different career decisions to what they'd make if they were still young up-and-comers or Joe Blow scrapping for a few dollars.


But, to me, the whole mindset of today's megastars has eclipsed even the Tyson era.


Tyson at least fought regularly, defending his title against all oncomers, ducking no-one (some might argue Lennox later on, but I digress) and advancing his legacy along with his bank balance.


But somewhere between Tyson and De La Hoya, it's all gone awry.


The modern pattern seems to be:


1/ Win a title belt.
2/ Defend said title belt with regularity and work your way up the P4P ladder with impressive victories. This will generally be remembered as the 'golden' era of your career (i.e. May at 130, Shane at 135, DLH at 147 etc)
3/ Achieve a career defining fight, usually at the same weight but maybe against a marquee opponent a weight or two up.
4/ As the media go ga-ga over your performance and elevate you to the top spot p4p, announce that you "no longer care about titles, and are all about making fights that make money."
5/ Seriously decrease your schedule, fight once or twice per year, and only against hand picked, high reward, low risk opponents.
6/ Repeat for half-a-decade.
7/ Retire, claiming you are the GOAT, but without any substance to your theory.
8/ Complain the media are hating/racist/biased (delete as appropriate) and say you'd wipe the floor with Robinson/Ali/Moore/all time great of your choice.


Too many of today's superstars have or are following this pattern or something mighty like it, and this, more than anything else, is killing the game IMO.


A certain few fighters, like Hopkins, cared more about their legacy and their place in boxing history than dollar signs, and managed to earn decent money whilst racking up title legacies and big victories, but the majority seem to want to follow the pattern above.

I'm worried how many fighters seem to leave their ambition behind at their original weight class and waste away years of their prime wallowing in the fleeting moments of greatness they showed as young men in their early 20's.



Thoughs? Culprits?


Black


Absolutely spot on, and Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Can see guys like Khan, Bradley, Berto etc going the same way tho. The worrying thing for me is its starting to happen long before some guys even reach a legitimate level of stardom.

Edit: Couldnt let a post go by without mentioning James FUCKING DeGale. He will slot into this mould with alarming speed.
Jack 1000
QUOTE
1/ Win a title belt.
2/ Defend said title belt with regularity and work your way up the P4P ladder with impressive victories. This will generally be remembered as the 'golden' era of your career (i.e. May at 130, Shane at 135, DLH at 147 etc)
3/ Achieve a career defining fight, usually at the same weight but maybe against a marquee opponent a weight or two up.

5/ Seriously decrease your schedule, fight once or twice per year, and only against hand picked, high reward, low risk opponents.
6/ Repeat for half-a-decade.
7/ Retire, claiming you are the GOAT, but without any substance to your theory.
8/ Complain the media are hating/racist/biased (delete as appropriate) and say you'd wipe the floor with Robinson/Ali/Moore/all time great of your choice.


Brilliant post Black! Spot on! This is the pattern of modern boxing today, ESPECIALLY with fighters like Floyd Mayweather Jr. and networks like HBO who endorse and encourage these trends! To repeat for emphasis in these steps, I see the numbers below orchestrated the most often:

4/ As the media go ga-ga over your performance (emphasis Jim Lampley who never met an HBO contracted fighter or Olympian he didn't like) and elevate you to the top spot p4p, announce that you "no longer care about titles, and are all about making fights that make money." (Emphasis, Mayweather and HBO.)

Ditto for #4 on 5-8 for Mayweather doing it more than any fighter of the modern era and Lamply with HBO shaking the pom-poms for as long as the "house fighter" is on the network.


Maybe some of these reasons are why HBO Boxing is in decline.

Jack


JLUVBABY
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Feb 19 2011, 11:26 AM) *
Absolutely spot on, and Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Can see guys like Khan, Bradley, Berto etc going the same way tho. The worrying thing for me is its starting to happen long before some guys even reach a legitimate level of stardom.

Edit: Couldnt let a post go by without mentioning James FUCKING DeGale. He will slot into this mould with alarming speed.


im not so sure i see a bradley or berto hitting real superstore status, even if they prove to be the goods skill wise... Shane is a case point in this study... he became pretty well known, but, would he really be considered a superstar?... i wouldnt think so... it has always been debated why he never became one of the big stars... he had all the skills but the public for whatever reason never took to him, he even won the big fights vs hoya... was it that he never capitalized off that and went on to lose back to back to forrest and wright?... anyway my point is bradley and berto while, even if they prove to be good solid or even great fighters, i dont see them being cross over stars.... they dont seem to have that special something the cross-over boxing stars seem to have... just my opinion...
lloyd mayflower
JLUV im with you there bacause I consider neither one good enough, but what i mean is that these guys are taking a leaf out of Floyds book at far too early a stage in their careers. They would have far more chance of becoming stars if they were more active. They have proved fuck all and yet your doing well to get 3 fights out of them in a year and you regularly hear them talkin shit about what makes money makes sense etc.

Its not just them two, i'm just using them as a case in point. At least Floyd is legit even if he is a prick!
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Feb 19 2011, 01:14 PM) *
JLUV im with you there bacause I consider neither one good enough, but what i mean is that these guys are taking a leaf out of Floyds book at far too early a stage in their careers. They would have far more chance of becoming stars if they were more active. They have proved fuck all and yet your doing well to get 3 fights out of them in a year and you regularly hear them talkin shit about what makes money makes sense etc.

Its not just them two, i'm just using them as a case in point. At least Floyd is legit even if he is a prick!


you right about that... they need to be, especially berto, a lot more active... you would think they would be concerned about getting seen as much as possible...
Mean Mister Mustard
Great posts. Just wanted to include Pacquiao as a guy who is being given a pass by most major media outlets. Case in point; The Ring's Editor, Nigel Collins, saying that yes Pacquiao-Mosley is not the fight we all want to see, but that watching Pacquiao fight is privilege enough. BS!
Jack 1000
Blackbelt's list is so good! I want to save these steps that he talks about, (Giving Blackbelt full credit of course!) Seriously, how can anyone disagree with what he says here?

The underlining problem created by these correct trends is, how can they be stopped? Can they be stopped? I have to blame the multiple title belts, the lesser value of weight classes compared to boxing's past, and networks like HBO's current promotional monopolies with selected promoters. Actually, a true monopoly is only one person or entity. However, most would agree that HBO treats Oscar Delahoya's Golden Boy Promotions and Al Haymon as if they are a monopoly and HBO for the last ten years or so, basically does what these two promoters tell them to do.

Jack
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Feb 19 2011, 07:36 PM) *
Great posts. Just wanted to include Pacquiao as a guy who is being given a pass by most major media outlets. Case in point; The Ring's Editor, Nigel Collins, saying that yes Pacquiao-Mosley is not the fight we all want to see, but that watching Pacquiao fight is privilege enough. BS!


Yeah but Pac is coming to the end of his career and has proved his status. Fighters like him have probably exacerbated the problem, but they're not THE problem. Lets look at some young pretenders to the p4p top ten.

Andre Ward

2005: 6 fights, ok thats fair enough.
2006: 3 fights ????
2007: 4 fights
2008: 3 fights
2009: 4 fights
2010: 2 fights

Tim Bradley

2006: 7 fights, again fair enough
2007: 4 fights
2008: 2 fights
2009: 3 fights
2010: 1 fight!

Chad Dawson

2005: 3 fights
2006: 3 fights
2007: 3 fights
2008: 2 fights
2009: 2 fights
2010: 1 fight

I'll leave at these three to save this becoming too long winded but i'm sure everyone can see where i'm going. I picked these three too because all three IMO have a little bit of previous for some prima donna behaviour. There obviously are others, but I also think its pertinent to mention American fighters here, because the sport is big in the U.S, which means that fighters get more exposure earlier, allowing a fast track to the top, which unfortunately goes hand in hand with big fuckin ego's!!! These guys are talking shit, pricing themselves out of fights etc before they've even served their apprenticeship!

Greed (fighter and promoter) and ego is whats hurting the sport. I'm not saying fighters shouldnt take advantage when in the twilight stages of their career and chase the money (Pac, Floyd, Mosley etc) but at leat these guys are HOF! The guys above probably havent even reached their primes, yet their PPV's and ticket sales are pretty gash, most likely cos by the time they come round to fighting, no one can remember whether they have seen them before or not!

gravytrain
you guys really think it's the fighters? i think it's the promoters more than anyone. they aren't going to put their fighter in more than 2 times a year and most likely have 2 soft fights because it protects the investment. promoters aren't going to risk their cash cow unless the opponent is promoted by them, once a fighter pays their dues you can really just put them in soft fights and get them and yourself millions of dollars anyway.

lloyd mayflower
To an extent I agree Gravy but the fighters are the product. Once they get to a certain stage they can call the shots a bit more, but most of them seem happy to take their two easy paydays a year. There are guys jumping ship recently and that can only be a good thing cos it shows promoters that if a fighter is marketable, then the promoter needs to listen to that fighters wishes or else he may just go elsewhere. Problem is not all boxers have that attitude too demand the big fights. It will be interesting what happens when the megafights disappear (Pac and Floyd).

Bob Arum surely (hopefully) isnt long for this world, and as much as Golden Boy are a big operation, I dont think they have the guile of Arum in their ranks, so maybe they will have no choice but to market the real fights that we want to see instead of tricking us into parting with our paper.

The promoters are definitely the organ grinders, but the monkeys must take their fair share of the blame!
gravytrain
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Feb 19 2011, 04:54 PM) *
To an extent I agree Gravy but the fighters are the product. Once they get to a certain stage they can call the shots a bit more, but most of them seem happy to take their two easy paydays a year. There are guys jumping ship recently and that can only be a good thing cos it shows promoters that if a fighter is marketable, then the promoter needs to listen to that fighters wishes or else he may just go elsewhere. Problem is not all boxers have that attitude too demand the big fights. It will be interesting what happens when the megafights disappear (Pac and Floyd).

Bob Arum surely (hopefully) isnt long for this world, and as much as Golden Boy are a big operation, I dont think they have the guile of Arum in their ranks, so maybe they will have no choice but to market the real fights that we want to see instead of tricking us into parting with our paper.

The promoters are definitely the organ grinders, but the monkeys must take their fair share of the blame!


fighters are the product in a sport where promoters have been fucking them for like 80 years. the only reason guys like Mosley and Marquez jumped ship is because Pac is the biggest payday and Arum wants your cut to fight him and wants you if you beat him. unless you're Floyd Mayweather you're not fighting him without TR promoting you if even for 1 fight.

promoters aren't ever going to make real fights as long as they can make money off of PPVs like Mayweather/Marquez and Pac/Mosley.

JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Feb 19 2011, 07:12 PM) *
fighters are the product in a sport where promoters have been fucking them for like 80 years. the only reason guys like Mosley and Marquez jumped ship is because Pac is the biggest payday and Arum wants your cut to fight him and wants you if you beat him. unless you're Floyd Mayweather you're not fighting him without TR promoting you if even for 1 fight.

promoters aren't ever going to make real fights as long as they can make money off of PPVs like Mayweather/Marquez and Pac/Mosley.


actually gravy... ive been thinking bout what you just said and i wont be surprised if arum winds up promoting that fight... if im not mistaking floyd doesnt have a contract with gbp... they have handled his fights in conjunction with pretty boy promotions for his last few fights on a fight to fight basis (least this is what i was led to believe)... if he's not under contract floyds not in a situation to need gbp for that fight... why pay them monies he doesnt have too?... unless im wrong im willing to bet gbp has nothing to do with that fight at the end of the day... and win or lose i think its floyds last fight unless there is a rematch involved... but i get the feeling floyd is a fight or 2 away from hanging them up... just my opinion...
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 19 2011, 08:50 PM) *
actually gravy... ive been thinking bout what you just said and i wont be surprised if arum winds up promoting that fight... if im not mistaking floyd doesnt have a contract with gbp... they have handled his fights in conjunction with pretty boy promotions for his last few fights on a fight to fight basis (least this is what i was led to believe)... if he's not under contract floyds not in a situation to need gbp for that fight... why pay them monies he doesnt have too?... unless im wrong im willing to bet gbp has nothing to do with that fight at the end of the day... and win or lose i think its floyds last fight unless there is a rematch involved... but i get the feeling floyd is a fight or 2 away from hanging them up... just my opinion...


Mayweather promotions isn't a real promoter, he'd either have to work with TR or GBP and TR probably wants a lot more than what GBP is taking. he could always get his shit together and make Mayweather promotions legitimate but that's on him.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Feb 19 2011, 07:59 PM) *
Mayweather promotions isn't a real promoter, he'd either have to work with TR or GBP and TR probably wants a lot more than what GBP is taking. he could always get his shit together and make Mayweather promotions legitimate but that's on him.


again as long as he has arum for promotions and a good attorney to ensure the contracts are legit and to his liking im missing why mayweather would need gbp when arum would be involved (maybe im missing something as ill admit i dont know a lot of the business end of promotions... never really cared about it as long as fights got made... lol...).... im sure arum could work out a same percentage that gbp would have gotten maybe even a little less if floyds lucky.. arums already getting close to 40 percent of pacs purse.. he will dance all the way to the bank in this fight....
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Feb 19 2011, 09:24 PM) *
again as long as he has arum for promotions and a good attorney to ensure the contracts are legit and to his liking im missing why mayweather would need gbp when arum would be involved (maybe im missing something as ill admit i dont know a lot of the business end of promotions... never really cared about it as long as fights got made... lol...).... im sure arum could work out a same percentage that gbp would have gotten maybe even a little less if floyds lucky.. arums already getting close to 40 percent of pacs purse.. he will dance all the way to the bank in this fight....


i think Mayweather would never go to Arum again, Arum would never cut him a deal either. he'd be better off working with GBP, he's the only fighter with enough clout to get a fight with Pac while having a promoter other than TR too.

BrutalBodyShots
How about Mayweather...?

2006 2 fights
2007 2 fights
2008 0 fights
2009 1 fight
2010 1 fight

lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Feb 20 2011, 04:51 AM) *
How about Mayweather...?

2006 2 fights
2007 2 fights
2008 0 fights
2009 1 fight
2010 1 fight


Yep, I was just looking at the young guys, because I feel they are the ones who NEED to be more active to prove themselves and for boxing to thrive, but I think these guys look at Floyd and think hey, I could get away with that shit too.
Maxy
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Feb 19 2011, 11:51 PM) *
How about Mayweather...?

2006 2 fights
2007 2 fights
2008 0 fights
2009 1 fight
2010 1 fight


Yeah that is absolutely disgraceful. Shocking inactivity.
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