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Maxy
I've been reading various articles and forum posts concerning what Sergio Martinez should do if he wants to create a legacy and I figured I'd ask you lot on here what you reckon.

For me personally I'd say to Martinez, "stay exactly where you are." I see absolutely no reason why he needs to move up in weight and I'm sick to death of people today thinking a fighter has to be a multi weight world champion to be considered great. Not everyone thinks that way obviously, but there is a newer breed of fan who most certainly does.

If Pac or Mayweather stepped up to face him....marvelous but if neither of them do then he should just be content with defending his belts against the best genuine middleweights out there until father time eventually catches up with him. I don't think he's big enough to be as successful at super middle and nor do I see why he should even bother. He rules a far more distinguished division right now in any case.

So what do you say? Does he have to move up in your opinion?
BigG
I have to agree....I'd like to see Martinez really try to clean out MW...Fight Sturm, Chavez Jr, Pirog
kidbazooka1
I don't think so. .

He's already on his way to making his legacy but ofcourse it would help if he moved up but not yet though.
dhoward126
Martinez's last five fights have come against former champions and he's gone 4-1 2 KOs in that stretch. They should absolutely make that Cotto fight though, Top Rank's roulette is hard on boxing and is preventing great fights such as Martinez-Cotto to happen. After all, Bernard Hopkins had like 10 or so defenses and was still considered an afterthought until he beat Trinidad, so Martinez doesn't have to take the unnecessary risk of going to 168 when the fighters below him will come to him eventually.
Snoop
The only reason he would have to move up is because the names up north are better known to the public. Same goes in regards to him fighting Mayweather or Pacquiao. There's plenty of skill in the MW division, but most of the public aren't familiar with the names.
Praximo
Yes, he should move up to super middleweight. Martinez already cleared out the biggest names and threats in MW, he beat ( in my eyes ) Kermit Cintron, Kelly Pavlik, Paul Williams and now an undeafeted solid puncher dzinzurik. And yes I understand there's still James Kirkland and Dmitry Pirog, both can put anyone's lights out with one punch but also way too early for both to fight martinez. And Martinez said he wants to fight the big names so he can be known as a p4p fighter. And what better division to fight than super middleweight? Plus all the attention it's getting from the super six tournament.
blackbelt2003
No he should not.


Martinez is not even the definitive best middleweight in the world. We suspect he is, but for all we know, Felix Sturm could have the key to defeating him.


Haven't we learned in the past that the consensus no.1 isn't always the best champion?

Didn't we learn when we called Trinidad the no.1 middle before Hopkins spanked him? Or when we called Mayorga the no.1 welter before Spinks schooled him? Or when we called Mosley the no.1 jr middle before Wright hammered him?

Are we now doing the same, counting our chickens before they've hatched and proclaiming MArtinez the no.1 middleweight before he's even taken on the other champs?



Black
CDeezFoo
what up fellaz...first post. Martinez is a solid fighter but for some reason im not ready to jump on his team just yet... i think a motivated Clottey (seeing how his ass won the lotto against Manny and decided not to take any chances) would be a good fight...people are too quick to label somebody as a great or elite fighter. make them go through the ranks before you start listing him as pound 4 pound bs..Martinez is nice but Manny and definetly Floyd would wipe the floor with this guy. with all that being said...i think he should stay at 154 for now and even consider looking down in weight against a Clottey or even a Berto.
JONdaCON817
QUOTE (CDeezFoo @ Mar 14 2011, 11:34 AM) *
what up fellaz...first post. Martinez is a solid fighter but for some reason im not ready to jump on his team just yet... i think a motivated Clottey (seeing how his ass won the lotto against Manny and decided not to take any chances) would be a good fight...

Martinez is nice but Manny and definetly Floyd would wipe the floor with this guy. with all that being said...i think he should stay at 154 for now and even consider looking down in weight against a Clottey or even a Berto.


Clottey? are you serious? the Human Punching Bag? Martinez would murder him. and I Personally dont think Manny would be able to beat him unless they were at a catchweight of 130 lbs. lmao. I would assume Floyd would have a better chance then Manny being the defensively savvy one of the 2.

Cotto vs Martinez would be nice to watch... as would vs Margarito. and ide deff like to see JCC jr get murdered.

As for Moving up in Weight i think he would be able to do with relative ease if he wanted to. Hes quicc and a hell of a puncher who would deff give alot of guys in that division problems. But hey if it aint broke, dont fix it. and Ide deff wait to do so if he did decide to move up.
gravytrain
i don't see a point in him moving up, it wont do more for him than the MW division. sure it'd be impressive but he's also mid 30s right now and i see him fighting 3 more years at most, what fights can he really get during that time at 168? all of the top fighters in the division are going to have their own plans and fighting Martinez probably wont be on the top of their list.

he's a victim of circumstance. got into boxing too late and he'll get no shot to get a following. he's also working against the clock right now and other than cleaning out the MW division, which wont really do anything for him in my opinion, his only other chance is to hope he can get a big fight at 168 while getting nothing in his favor against any 168lber.
HaydelHammer
QUOTE (CDeezFoo @ Mar 14 2011, 01:34 PM) *
what up fellaz...first post. Martinez is a solid fighter but for some reason im not ready to jump on his team just yet... i think a motivated Clottey (seeing how his ass won the lotto against Manny and decided not to take any chances) would be a good fight...people are too quick to label somebody as a great or elite fighter. make them go through the ranks before you start listing him as pound 4 pound bs..Martinez is nice but Manny and definetly Floyd would wipe the floor with this guy. with all that being said...i think he should stay at 154 for now and even consider looking down in weight against a Clottey or even a Berto.


welcome

I think clottey would shell up on d as soon as sergio looked at him. Other than taking the $$$ to fight oscar, floyd had no business at 54 imo.

If manny does his epo cycle as scheduled he'd walk through sergio at 54. No Epo....manny gets ko'd in 3
JONdaCON817
QUOTE (HaydelHammer @ Mar 14 2011, 01:30 PM) *
If manny does his epo cycle as scheduled he'd walk through sergio at 54. No Epo....manny gets ko'd in 3


Agreed.

EPO? i thought it was HGH?? lol. EPO, HGH, PEDs.. all the same.
EAlbian
To be great he needs to beat good opponents, there's nobody left @160 and why should all these fighters move up to fight him? how does that make him great? he's 6' walks around @180lbs. Berto is 5'9, floyd 5'8.5, Pac 5'6. C'mon. Ward is 6'1 and weighs in at fight night at 172-176, so does Martinez, so does Froch, so does Bute. Martinez is the same size as these guys @168, he just cuts more weight. Dzinzurik fights at 154, William never fought a top ten guy at 160 he's a 147lber and a 154lber, Pavlik only beat Taylor(who did nothing after that) and Miranda(we saw what happened to him with Ward and Bute). Bute and Ward would stamp his legacy, nobody at 160 does that for him, just my opinion.

If he fought a Sturm or a Pavlik rematch in the interim i wouldn't blame him but his goal should be to seek out the biggest challenges and fighting smaller men isn't going to provide the greatest challenges, hasn't this been what floyd has been criticized for?? Hopkins was given more credit for his win over Tarver and draw with Pascal than he was for his stoppages of Oscar and Trinidad. I think Martinez is a live fighter with any of the super mw's and that is PPV caliber fight for him
Cheesey1
[quote name='gravytrain' date='Mar 14 2011, 02:23 PM' post='514680']
i don't see a point in him moving up, it wont do more for him than the MW division. sure it'd be impressive but he's also mid 30s right now and i see him fighting 3 more years at most, what fights can he really get during that time at 168? all of the top fighters in the division are going to have their own plans and fighting Martinez probably wont be on the top of their list.

he's a victim of circumstance. got into boxing too late and he'll get no shot to get a following. he's also working against the clock right now and other than cleaning out the MW division, which wont really do anything for him in my opinion, his only other chance is to hope he can get a big fight at 168 while getting nothing in his favor against any 168lber.
[/quot
I think that him vs. Bute would make a good amount of money. He's supposedly very popular in Spain so they could also set up a European clash with Abraham, or Froch. As a boxing fan, I'd love to see him fight any of the preceeding as well as Ward, or Dirrell. A fight against Angulo should be his next fight in the meantime. Basically, as others have said there's enough in the middleweight and super middleweight divisions that makes more sense than some of the other nonsense that's being posted.
EAlbian
QUOTE (dhoward126 @ Mar 14 2011, 10:01 AM) *
Martinez's last five fights have come against former champions and he's gone 4-1 2 KOs in that stretch. They should absolutely make that Cotto fight though, Top Rank's roulette is hard on boxing and is preventing great fights such as Martinez-Cotto to happen. After all, Bernard Hopkins had like 10 or so defenses and was still considered an afterthought until he beat Trinidad, so Martinez doesn't have to take the unnecessary risk of going to 168 when the fighters below him will come to him eventually.



Cotto?? he's 5'8 and 1.5 yrs ago was a welterweight, he has beaten nobody @154 to move up to 160 and fight for the world championship?? you guys are so hypocritical. everybody should move up to fight him but he should stay put?? he's bigger than most 168lbers!! he's jacked at 160 and weights 170+ on fight night
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 14 2011, 06:41 PM) *
To be great he needs to beat good opponents, there's nobody left @160 and why should all these fighters move up to fight him? how does that make him great? he's 6' walks around @180lbs. Berto is 5'9, floyd 5'8.5, Pac 5'6. C'mon. Ward is 6'1 and weighs in at fight night at 172-176, so does Martinez, so does Froch, so does Bute. Martinez is the same size as these guys @168, he just cuts more weight. Dzinzurik fights at 154, William never fought a top ten guy at 160 he's a 147lber and a 154lber, Pavlik only beat Taylor(who did nothing after that) and Miranda(we saw what happened to him with Ward and Bute). Bute and Ward would stamp his legacy, nobody at 160 does that for him, just my opinion.

If he fought a Sturm or a Pavlik rematch in the interim i wouldn't blame him but his goal should be to seek out the biggest challenges and fighting smaller men isn't going to provide the greatest challenges, hasn't this been what floyd has been criticized for?? Hopkins was given more credit for his win over Tarver and draw with Pascal than he was for his stoppages of Oscar and Trinidad. I think Martinez is a live fighter with any of the super mw's and that is PPV caliber fight for him



even if he does move up i just don't see the recognition for him, he'll just be moving up to a historically weak division to fight homers signed to another network. the Martinez legacy is going to be a question mark. are boxing fans even really going to sit around and talk about him in the future? i've my doubts. what Martinez lacks is an important fight and only 2 fighters can really provide that and both are smaller than him.

Martinez wont get any real recognition until he gets recognized, a fighter that's actually sold some PPVs as an opponent is the only way.
EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Mar 14 2011, 08:05 PM) *
even if he does move up i just don't see the recognition for him, he'll just be moving up to a historically weak division to fight homers signed to another network. the Martinez legacy is going to be a question mark. are boxing fans even really going to sit around and talk about him in the future? i've my doubts. what Martinez lacks is an important fight and only 2 fighters can really provide that and both are smaller than him.

Martinez wont get any real recognition until he gets recognized, a fighter that's actually sold some PPVs as an opponent is the only way.


Historically weak? Champions such as Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, James Toney, Roy Jones, Joe Calzahge, Ray Leonard, Iran Barkley.... Alright if all of those fighters/fights are historically weak then I guess he could move up 2 weight classes and fight Pascal Hopkins winner. Mayweather and Pacquaio are not the end all be all in boxing and it's fans with your mindset that are ruining the sport. Great fights make a great legacy, without them the greats aren't great. A Bute vs Martinez fight has all the makings of a great fight. These fighters need each other to propell eachother to greatness, that's how legacies are born. I don't get how beating a guy who is way smaller than you does anything but propel PAC or May to even greater heights if they win. Name one fighter in the top 3 at Super middleweight or light heavy that you wouldn't want to see Martinez fight because I think he makes all of those fights interesting and then name one that the size difference is as disparaging as it is between Martinez and PAC/May
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 14 2011, 11:14 PM) *
Historically weak? Champions such as Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns, James Toney, Roy Jones, Joe Calzahge, Ray Leonard, Iran Barkley.... Alright if all of those fighters/fights are historically weak then I guess he could move up 2 weight classes and fight Pascal Hopkins winner. Mayweather and Pacquaio are not the end all be all in boxing and it's fans with your mindset that are ruining the sport. Great fights make a great legacy, without them the greats aren't great. A Bute vs Martinez fight has all the makings of a great fight. These fighters need each other to propell eachother to greatness, that's how legacies are born. I don't get how beating a guy who is way smaller than you does anything but propel PAC or May to even greater heights if they win. Name one fighter in the top 3 at Super middleweight or light heavy that you wouldn't want to see Martinez fight because I think he makes all of those fights interesting and then name one that the size difference is as disparaging as it is between Martinez and PAC/May



168 has never and will never be a premier division.

Mayweather and Pac are the only guys selling PPVs, that's why Martinez wants them. even if he did move up to 168 all the top guys are pretty much inked with Showtime for the time being, he'd also be dicked in the negotiations since he really brings nothing other than a P4P ranking to the table. plus i doubt any of the top guys at 168 would want him as a tuneup so he'll be waiting til the end of the S6 for a shot at a titlist or maybe even longer.

i'm not ruining anything, that's the reality of it. if Martinez wants to make some real money it'll take Mayweather or Pac same with going beyond being a good BAD fighter.
Thegreatequalizer
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 14 2011, 06:41 PM) *
To be great he needs to beat good opponents, there's nobody left @160 and why should all these fighters move up to fight him? how does that make him great? he's 6' walks around @180lbs. Berto is 5'9, floyd 5'8.5, Pac 5'6. C'mon. Ward is 6'1 and weighs in at fight night at 172-176, so does Martinez, so does Froch, so does Bute. Martinez is the same size as these guys @168, he just cuts more weight. Dzinzurik fights at 154, William never fought a top ten guy at 160 he's a 147lber and a 154lber, Pavlik only beat Taylor(who did nothing after that) and Miranda(we saw what happened to him with Ward and Bute). Bute and Ward would stamp his legacy, nobody at 160 does that for him, just my opinion.


martinez isn't 6', he's 5'10", which means he's shorter than de la hoya and trinidad. and he himself moved up to middleweight from jr. middle, so i don't think he really needs to go anywhere. middleweight is historically one of the greatest and most respected divisions. i think he should just go about dominating middleweight and maybe take an occasional super middle fight.
Fitz
Martinez needs to stay put at 160 or move up. I understand he is trying to get a pay day like every body else. But the fact is he is a good middleweight and Mayweather and Pacquiao are good welter weights.
Martinez vs Pacquiao/Mayweather isn't a fight that needs to happen right now.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Maxy @ Mar 14 2011, 08:17 AM) *
I've been reading various articles and forum posts concerning what Sergio Martinez should do if he wants to create a legacy and I figured I'd ask you lot on here what you reckon.

For me personally I'd say to Martinez, "stay exactly where you are." I see absolutely no reason why he needs to move up in weight and I'm sick to death of people today thinking a fighter has to be a multi weight world champion to be considered great. Not everyone thinks that way obviously, but there is a newer breed of fan who most certainly does.

If Pac or Mayweather stepped up to face him....marvelous but if neither of them do then he should just be content with defending his belts against the best genuine middleweights out there until father time eventually catches up with him. I don't think he's big enough to be as successful at super middle and nor do I see why he should even bother. He rules a far more distinguished division right now in any case.

So what do you say? Does he have to move up in your opinion?


very well put maxy... nothing else to add... and on a side note sergio is too big for both pac and mayweather... no way pac beats him... mayweather can beat him skill wise but i could def see sergio landing something big and hurting mayweather... may would have to fight a close to perfect fight... but i doubt either fight happens honestly... i will also add... sergio is too small for super middleweight... he has found his peak weight... 154 to 160... that is where he should stay and campaign....
lloyd mayflower
He should stay put for at least 2 or 3 fights and see what pans out around 154 160 and 168.

On another note, regarding pac and Floyd, unless those two bitches are ready to drop a digit off the number of weights they have been "champs" at, they are legitimate targets for sergio if he fancies moving back to 154. They both claim to be former light middleweight champions. They can't say some light middles are too big and some aren't.
Snoop
Logically Martinez shouldn't move up or down. There is plenty of stiff competition in the MW division, but unfortunately most of the general public is unfamiliar with those names (Hell, Saturday night was the first time I heard some of those names). Legacies are built off names and names are built off media hype. A win over a Pacquiao or Mayweather would probably garnish more praise than if he beat all the MW current middleweight champs simply because people know who the former two are. Don't get me wrong, I'm on board with the notion that moving up or down is neither the smarter move or even the tougher challenge, but it's where the recognition currently dwells.

The only other way I can see him establishing some kind of legacy is if has some sort of Hopkins type reign, which IMO, won't happen because Martinez doesn't have the fundamental longevity that Hopkins possesses (great performance on Sat, but he was getting tagged towards the end and I'd be interested to see what happens when his reflexes start slowing down). Even then, Hopkins didn't even really start blowing up til he KO'd Trinidad and there isn't really anyone like that lurking in the MW division in the near future.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Mar 15 2011, 08:50 AM) *
On another note, regarding pac and Floyd, unless those two bitches are ready to drop a digit off the number of weights they have been "champs" at, they are legitimate targets for sergio if he fancies moving back to 154. They both claim to be former light middleweight champions. They can't say some light middles are too big and some aren't.


i agree with this statement to an extent... but you look at pacs BOGUS title at 154... he won it at a catchweight of 150... he won it at 150 because 154 is just too big for him... lets say pac actually defended that 154 belt... there are several fighters id favor over pac at 154 due to size and skill set... pac wouldnt get away with his fighting style vs the better fighters at 154... floyd on the other hand i believe can make 154 but would be a small jr middle... he wasnt a true jr middle when he fought oscar... actually im not sure floyd was a true welter when he fought oscar for that matter... i think, especially now seeing what a good jab was able to do when dzinziruk decided to throw it was able to do to martinez IF they fought i'd have to favor floyd... but thats a very dangerous fight for reasons mentioned above in an earlier post (i think martinez is capable of being thoroughly out boxed)... but i do agree with your view... if they can call themselves former jr middle weight champs they have the right to be considered targets... i agree 110%...
blackbelt2003
The best thing for the middleweight division would be a big tournament, similar to what Don King did with Joppy, Tito, B Hop and Holmes, but make it bigger.


With MArtinez, Sturm, Sylvester, Abraham, Pavlik, Pirog, JC Chavez and David Lemiuex it becomes a truly global tournament and would garner a lot of attention world wide.


Plus the semi finalists would still be hot enough commodities to fight off for a third place spot and a shot at the eventual winner.

We'd get unification, a sack o' great fights, a little boxing history made and it would return the glamour division to something like past glories.



Psshhhh at people clamouring for Martinez to move up when he's not even had more than three title fights at 160. Jeez. If every champion did that there'sd be no point in titles or weight divisions.



Black
EAlbian

He's listed at 5'10, standing next to Pavlik he looks to be 5'11-6ft. The names at MW are nobodies, Pirong has one win over an untested Danny Jacobs, Sturm was TKO'd by Javier Castillejo who had lost to a beyond his prime Vargas the year before. Sturm has fought nobody good, sylvester is a joke. People know the fighters in the super middleweight division and he weighs the same as them on fight night, case and point. I don't think he should rush into those fights but that should be his goal going into 2012 if he wants to remembered as great imo. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to see those fights, he is much better than any of the fighters you have mentioned and if that isn't appearant to you then i guess we are watching different fighters. He matches up well all the top fighters at 168 and i wouldn't pick any of them to ko him. MW sucks right now, Pirong is the only fighter of promise. Kirkland should stay at 154, he matches up so much better with those fighters. Martinez stops Kirkland easy. Kirkland vs Cotto is a good fight. Alvarez is too small for 160, can't even hurt a c level 147lbs fighter. JCC Jr is a scrub until proven otherwise. I want to see good fights, not Martinez defend in a lackluster division
Maxy
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 01:16 PM) *
He's listed at 5'10, standing next to Pavlik he looks to be 5'11-6ft. The names at MW are nobodies, Pirong has one win over an untested Danny Jacobs, Sturm was TKO'd by Javier Castillejo who had lost to a beyond his prime Vargas the year before. Sturm has fought nobody good, sylvester is a joke. People know the fighters in the super middleweight division and he weighs the same as them on fight night, case and point. I don't think he should rush into those fights but that should be his goal going into 2012 if he wants to remembered as great imo. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to see those fights, he is much better than any of the fighters you have mentioned and if that isn't appearant to you then i guess we are watching different fighters. He matches up well all the top fighters at 168 and i wouldn't pick any of them to ko him. MW sucks right now, Pirong is the only fighter of promise. Kirkland should stay at 154, he matches up so much better with those fighters. Martinez stops Kirkland easy. Kirkland vs Cotto is a good fight. Alvarez is too small for 160, can't even hurt a c level 147lbs fighter. JCC Jr is a scrub until proven otherwise. I want to see good fights, not Martinez defend in a lackluster division


I think you are seriously underestimating the other middleweights or are vastly overrating Martinez. I like him, I rate him, but I don't consider him a dead cert to clean out the division, and for that reason alone I want to see him try.

What I don't get these days is why a fighter is always being rushed to move up to the next weight division before they have cleaned out their current one. He's got time to fight the best middleweights before he even contemplates a move up. The best super middleweights are all tied up at the minute anyway.

History tells us you don't have to win multiple titles to be considered a great fighter. Now I'm not suggesting Martinez will ever be considered great, but right now he is in an ideal position to stamp a marker at 160 which, for me, will be enough to create a legacy of sorts.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Maxy @ Mar 15 2011, 01:28 PM) *
I think you are seriously underestimating the other middleweights or are vastly overrating Martinez. I like him, I rate him, but I don't consider him a dead cert to clean out the division, and for that reason alone I want to see him try.

What I don't get these days is why a fighter is always being rushed to move up to the next weight division before they have cleaned out their current one. He's got time to fight the best middleweights before he even contemplates a move up. The best super middleweights are all tied up at the minute anyway.

History tells us you don't have to win multiple titles to be considered a great fighter. Now I'm not suggesting Martinez will ever be considered great, but right now he is in an ideal position to stamp a marker at 160 which, for me, will be enough to create a legacy of sorts.


im with you maxy... if nothing else dzinurk (or how ever you spell his name... lol...) showed a jab troubles martinez... he has a very glaring weakness... id like to see him fight a sturm... sturm has grown into his own from his younger days and has found a nice rhythm... i think thats a very solid fight to be made...
EAlbian
QUOTE (Maxy @ Mar 15 2011, 01:28 PM) *
I think you are seriously underestimating the other middleweights or are vastly overrating Martinez. I like him, I rate him, but I don't consider him a dead cert to clean out the division, and for that reason alone I want to see him try.

What I don't get these days is why a fighter is always being rushed to move up to the next weight division before they have cleaned out their current one. He's got time to fight the best middleweights before he even contemplates a move up. The best super middleweights are all tied up at the minute anyway.

History tells us you don't have to win multiple titles to be considered a great fighter. Now I'm not suggesting Martinez will ever be considered great, but right now he is in an ideal position to stamp a marker at 160 which, for me, will be enough to create a legacy of sorts.



What MW do you think can beat him? Sturm is really not that good and Pirog is unknown and untested. I think Pirog can be a real good fight but he is 3-4 fights away from being known. Clearing out the division is basically beating Sturm which i'm ok with i just think long term he should be looking to break into 168 by the end of 2012. I do rate him high, he beat williams who i think is tough 2x imo if not the first fight was a draw at best( i'm a williams fan) and Pavlik who was the MW champ (although he hadn't beat anyone of quality since Taylor). Dzinzuirk i though was better then Sturm, that should have been a fight made a year ago in Germany. The man is ranked top 3 p4p and should be, not overrating him.

He doesn't have to move up multiple weight classes, but to be great imo and make big money while still in his prime he does. He weighs the same as these guys when he steps in the ring and thats really the determining factor for me
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 01:37 PM) *
What MW do you think can beat him? Sturm is really not that good and Pirog is unknown and untested. I think Pirog can be a real good fight but he is 3-4 fights away from being known. Clearing out the division is basically beating Sturm which i'm ok with i just think long term he should be looking to break into 168 by the end of 2012. I do rate him high, he beat williams who i think is tough 2x imo if not the first fight was a draw at best( i'm a williams fan) and Pavlik who was the MW champ (although he hadn't beat anyone of quality since Taylor). Dzinzuirk i though was better then Sturm, that should have been a fight made a year ago in Germany. The man is ranked top 3 p4p and should be, not overrating him.

He doesn't have to move up multiple weight classes, but to be great imo and make big money while still in his prime he does. He weighs the same as these guys when he steps in the ring and thats really the determining factor for me


would beating a couple 168lbers really move him up on the all time P4P list? it'll take at least 2-3 years to really crown a champ of the division anyway. not to mention that he'd have to cut out HBO to get a real fight at 168. fighting the top SMW fighters isn't exactly going to mean bigger paydays either, he needs a name on his resume for that. all the names in boxing are at 147-154 right now, if he goes to 168 all you'll hear is "why should i fight a SMW? that's 2-3 divisions higher".
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 01:37 PM) *
What MW do you think can beat him? Sturm is really not that good and Pirog is unknown and untested. I think Pirog can be a real good fight but he is 3-4 fights away from being known. Clearing out the division is basically beating Sturm which i'm ok with i just think long term he should be looking to break into 168 by the end of 2012. I do rate him high, he beat williams who i think is tough 2x imo if not the first fight was a draw at best( i'm a williams fan) and Pavlik who was the MW champ (although he hadn't beat anyone of quality since Taylor). Dzinzuirk i though was better then Sturm, that should have been a fight made a year ago in Germany. The man is ranked top 3 p4p and should be, not overrating him.

He doesn't have to move up multiple weight classes, but to be great imo and make big money while still in his prime he does. He weighs the same as these guys when he steps in the ring and thats really the determining factor for me


on the contrary i think sturm would be a great fight to be made with sergio... sturm brings a jab to the table... good power... its a solid fight... personally i cant pick a winner... sturm has become a much better fighter since the castilejo days...
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Mar 15 2011, 02:44 PM) *
on the contrary i think sturm would be a great fight to be made with sergio... sturm brings a jab to the table... good power... its a solid fight... personally i cant pick a winner... sturm has become a much better fighter since the castilejo days...


i think the MWs need some time before a Martinez fight, kind of like Povetkin with a Klits brother but they'll actually fight Martinez in the future.

i don't ever really think Martinez will be more than a BAD fighter though, he got started and is peaking too late and the roads leading to fame & fortune are closed.
EAlbian
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Mar 15 2011, 02:44 PM) *
on the contrary i think sturm would be a great fight to be made with sergio... sturm brings a jab to the table... good power... its a solid fight... personally i cant pick a winner... sturm has become a much better fighter since the castilejo days...


Good power?? He has a good jab, but not as good as Dzinzuruiks. Sturm hasn't beat anyone, hasn't even challenged himself. What fight has convinced you of this? Was it the Grevor fight that he lost? or maybe the Ronald Hearns fight? Had to be the Hearns fight, seeing as he hadn't beaten anyone with 60% win ratio after having his head taken of by Yorgey. lol.

I think any of the fighters at 168 make for better fights. I'll take Martinez by stoppage over sturm, after seeing his performance with Dz(a fight i thought he had a shot of losing) im convinced of it but again wouldn't blame him for taking that fight. I think he beats Froch, Abraham, and Johnson quite easily. Ward and Bute are great fights for him and Ward and Froch are only signed to 2 more fights with showtime and after the super six are free agents.

Martinez just made 1.2mil for his last win and has had 4 fights on HBO, great exposure. He is on the verge of a PPV fight, but Sturm isn't that fight though. The super six final will be a PPV and the winner of that should be his target, even if that means a move to showtime.

Angulo lost to Cintron and has never fought a legit MW and he didnt want the fight 9mo ago. The rest of the division needs to grow up N'Dam N'Jikam hasn't fough anyone, Geale needs a good win, Glovokin should be fighting Sturm, Guerrero needs a step up, Pirog looks complete but is inactive. These guys need to fight eachother before they are ready for a Martinez shot
EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Mar 15 2011, 03:29 PM) *
i think the MWs need some time before a Martinez fight, kind of like Povetkin with a Klits brother but they'll actually fight Martinez in the future.

i don't ever really think Martinez will be more than a BAD fighter though, he got started and is peaking too late and the roads leading to fame & fortune are closed.



Fame and fortune?? BAD?? He's fought 5 times on WC boxing, he's made over 5 million in the last 5 fights. He's on the verge of a PPV, Hopkins could provide that but that is a pretty big jump in weight. If Pavlik can rebound a possible PPV with him could loom in a years time at 168, granted he would need a KO over a notable opponent
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 06:16 PM) *
People know the fighters in the super middleweight division and he weighs the same as them on fight night, case and point.



If Sergio Martinez weighs 170 on fight night what do you think Carl Froch weighs? He sure as hell don't weigh 170.


Black
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 04:05 PM) *
Fame and fortune?? BAD?? He's fought 5 times on WC boxing, he's made over 5 million in the last 5 fights. He's on the verge of a PPV, Hopkins could provide that but that is a pretty big jump in weight. If Pavlik can rebound a possible PPV with him could loom in a years time at 168, granted he would need a KO over a notable opponent


he'd make more in one PPV fight with Mayweather or Pac than he's in the past 2 years, he'd also get more exposure than 10 fights on WCB could get him. i wonder where his legacy would be if he beat either of them too; a lot fucking better than fighting Pavlik again, a 50 year old Hopkins, or hoping he can beat the elite at 168.

a Pavlik PPV? he'd be better off sticking with WCB. how well is Martinez/Hopkins about to do anyway? Hopkins last PPVs did about 150k and 180k, i wouldn't be surprised to see 150k or less. if he wants to become a star he needs someone that's had successful PPVs, they're all at 147 and 154. seeing that Martinez is already 36, probably why he wants Mayweather or Pac right now, is because his time is running up and his style isn't going to keep him successful as he gets older when fighting against top opposition.
EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Mar 15 2011, 06:02 PM) *
he'd make more in one PPV fight with Mayweather or Pac than he's in the past 2 years, he'd also get more exposure than 10 fights on WCB could get him. i wonder where his legacy would be if he beat either of them too; a lot fucking better than fighting Pavlik again, a 50 year old Hopkins, or hoping he can beat the elite at 168.

a Pavlik PPV? he'd be better off sticking with WCB. how well is Martinez/Hopkins about to do anyway? Hopkins last PPVs did about 150k and 180k, i wouldn't be surprised to see 150k or less. if he wants to become a star he needs someone that's had successful PPVs, they're all at 147 and 154. seeing that Martinez is already 36, probably why he wants Mayweather or Pac right now, is because his time is running up and his style isn't going to keep him successful as he gets older when fighting against top opposition.



The fame and fortune you are talking about is unattainable for 95% of all boxers. He's not Pac and he's not May nor will he ever be. It took both of them the better of 10 years to achieve the level they are at. and they had a laundry list of better opponents to fight. Cotto and him could maybe do 250k if that. who else besides those 3 would draw better than those numbers?

Why would he make anymore than Mosley did to fight mayweather, he doesnt even bring the name mosley did to the table. Mosley was paid 6mil, the fights arent there for him. How does beating Pac or May advance his legacy? he would be known for picking on a way smaller fighter, it would do nothing but increase his bank account.

A Hopkins PPV or Bute PPV might do 350k at most, which is pretty good. Hopkins v Taylor did 350k when Taylor was unknown. Canadians love Bute
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Mar 15 2011, 06:37 PM) *
The fame and fortune you are talking about is unattainable for 95% of all boxers. He's not Pac and he's not May nor will he ever be. It took both of them the better of 10 years to achieve the level they are at. and they had a laundry list of better opponents to fight. Cotto and him could maybe do 250k if that. who else besides those 3 would draw better than those numbers?

Why would he make anymore than Mosley did to fight mayweather, he doesnt even bring the name mosley did to the table. Mosley was paid 6mil, the fights arent there for him. How does beating Pac or May advance his legacy? he would be known for picking on a way smaller fighter, it would do nothing but increase his bank account.

A Hopkins PPV or Bute PPV might do 350k at most, which is pretty good. Hopkins v Taylor did 350k when Taylor was unknown. Canadians love Bute


he might not make 20-40 mil a fight but he could definitely make more than he's now. with Cotto or Margarito he also gets the exposure of fighting 2 of Pac's opponents, if he takes Cotto out early then he'll be the guy that stopped him more quickly than Pac. same with Margarito, if he stops him he'll stop a guy Pac just dominated to decision. beating someone with a name takes much less time than making your own name in a division that's tied up and Martinez is already 36. Cotto/Foreman also got better viewers than the Martinez/Williams rematch when it's riding the audience of the the Pac/Margarito replay, anyway you want to slice it Cotto can provide a PPV, exposure, and 1 fight for more money in the future instead of years.

Pac and Mayweather both have fights for junior MW titles, Martinez can go down to 154. if they weren't too small to compete in it then they aren't now. he'd also have the chance to defeat 2 of the best fighters of their era. a big reason Mayweather/Mosley did well is because there was a possibility of Mayweather losing, to the casual fan anyway. someone like Martinez provides that same selling point and depending on the deal and money Mayweather generates he could make 5 PPV money included.

how long ago was Hopkins/Taylor? what PPVs does Bute have? any way you want you want to look at it going against a fighter that has already had PPV success is a hell of a lot easier than then building it up at 168 while having 3-4 years to do so when the top fighters probably wont even look at you for a year or 2.
gravytrain
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Mar 15 2011, 07:07 PM) *
I simply don't get your insistence that moving up is the answer for SMartinez. There is plenty of work to do at 160. Enough that he should be able to finish his career in stellar fashion there.


I disagree even more with SMartinez fighting Pac or PBF (unless they step up and insist on it). He is too big for them and when he pounded each into veal cutlets, he would be remembered for picking on great little fighters.


SMartinez is on the verge of attaining a very high level of fame and fortune without moving up or down.

The answer to your (bolded) question is Princess JCC jr., if he manages to get by Zbek(?). After that he would be the PPV draw. He could then fight Sturm in Vegas and it would be big. By then Golovkin, Pirog, N'Dam N'Jikam or Lemieux would be ready. Princess Alvarez may cap SMartinez career or maybe Lara or . . . (edit) I forgot the Kirkland factor. If the KMan keeps on track and takes out Cotto and Dzinziruk or some such, it would set up a large showdown with SMartinez.

SMartinez is becoming the peoples' champion. He is a great role model, he will fight anyone, he comes from one of the worst ghettos in the world, he is an exciting fighter to watch. He has all the ingredients. He need not force the issue. He needs to keep winning tough fights in exciting fashion and it will happen.


the Martinez fight has already been presented to both, Pac would "take it" at welterweight and Mayweather is "thinking" about it. the fight has already been thrown around for a few months with both fighters. if he beat both of their asses he'd also be remembered for knocking out the P4P number 1 and 2 who both happen to be making all of the money in boxing. if anything the boxing media created the fight, the only thing Martinez did was say he could beat both.

how is JCC gonna help Martinez? JCC can't even help himself, the only reason he's even made money is his daddy. Sturm probably isn't even known in America. i think he should go with Arum personally, if he's promoting him he'll get him fights, PPVs, and wont give a fuck if he beats some people in his stable because he's getting 30% of the purses either way.
kidbazooka1
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Mar 15 2011, 01:02 AM) *
SMartinez is 5'10'.

Nobody left at 160. There's plenty of talent to clean out: Sturm. Pirog, N'Dam J'Kam (or some shit), Golovkin, Lemieux. By the time he gets through the 1st 3, the last 2 will be ready to get their asses kicked and the next SupaStar will have appeared.

I totally agree that Pac, PBF and Berto should not go near SMaritnez.


SMartinez would utterly destroy Cotto. Not a good matchup. Cotto v Angulo would be a worthwhile fight.


I like Cotto but Sergio would really put a bad beat down on him.
The CEO
All I know is...I'LL remember Sergio Martinez was a true Champion who went after the best in his divisions and beat the SNOT outta those who dared to sign the contract (thus far)...lol....yeah....I'm 100% sure I'll be bringing him up if I'm talkin' to a Boxing fan 20 years from now...

In other words...to ME, he's already made his mark. I'm satisfied with what he's done and is trying to do...

Can he do more and make it in The Top 50 ATGs someday?...he can try, and it's certainly possible...but he's runnin' out of time, and I don't see Mayweather or Pacquiao bein' in a hurry to fight him...

Does moving up enhance his legacy?...it wouldn't hurt MY judgement of him if he won OR lost up there..
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