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Method
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/05/27/victor-c...ood-doping-epo/

QUOTE
Victor Conte on Boxing, USADA, Steroids, Blood-Doping, EPO

I'm now a part of the anti-doping movement. I'm trying to help those at WADA [The World Anti-Doping Agency,] and, USADA [The United States Anti-Doping Agency] to develop more effective anti-doping policies and procedures. And that's what I'm doing now, and I'm very outspoken about it.

The difference is that here is what people fail to realize, and that's that from 1984, which is when I founded BALCO, and until the year 2000 -- so, for 16 years -- I did things the right way. The only thing that I did was to do comprehensive blood and urine testing of athletes, and to develop individualized nutrition programs for them.

But it got to a point, for me -- and this doesn't make it right, because it was certainly wrong, and it was certainly a mistake -- but I had gotten to a point where I thought differently. I had gotten to a point when I realized that Olympic officials and those that control major league football and baseball were enabling, harboring, and, promoting this culture of drug use in sport. And I made the bad decision to join that culture. It was a huge mistake, and I wish now that I had never done it.

That point was in 2000, and, of course, I did that for the years 2000, 2001, 2002, and, 2003. So, for four years, I was about helping athletes to circumvent these testing policies. Once BALCO was raided, I realized how I had been reckless, and that I had put many others at risk -- Victor Conte.

FanHouse caught up with former BALCO founder, Victor Conte, to get his view on why a fighter would benefit from steroids or EPO, as well as his explanation as to how a competitor's illicit drug use can escape detection by not only by the sport's current drug-testing system, but, also, that employed, for the first time in boxing history, by The United States Anti-Doping Agency for the May 1 clash between Floyd Mayweather and Shane Mosley.

As a refresher, USADA tested Mayweather for both blood and urine on March 22, April 1, April 13 and then on the night directly after the fight. Mayweather reportedly provided urine only on April 3, April 6, April 21 and April 24.

Meanwhile, Mosley provided both blood and urine on March 23, March 31, April 12 and directly after the bout on fight night. Mosley supplied urine on April 3, April 6, April 21 and April 24.

FanHouse: Can we begin with the concern for EPO in boxing?

Victor Conte: Well, you're specifically asking about the significance of the phrase, '19 hours.' And yes, EPO will clear the system in less than a day. But that number is a mean average -- the 19 hours.

So what that means is that you only have to do an injection of EPO to maintain the intial stage. When we first started using the drug, it the initial stage was called, 'The corrective phase.' And that when typically you do it three times a week for two weeks.

And you monitor your hermaticrit -- the percentage of red blood cells -- and then, you re-test, and if you hit the mark, then you thereafter can go to the second phase, which they call 'The maintainence phase.' As you know, there's the uses of EPO for cancer patients and kidney failure patients and HIV patients.


Can you please continue to clarify what's going on here with this, and what you're getting at?

Okay, so, now, here is what typically these athletes can do. They're sophisticated. They will use EPO, and let's just say that their normal hermaticrit starts out within a boxer. Say he starts out with a baseline hermaticrit of 44 percent. After using EPO, for two weeks, it goes to 52 percent.


What do those numbers mean?


That means that you have your total whole blood volume is approximately 44 percent red bood cells and 56 percent serum, which is the fluid portion of blood. When you produce more red blood cells, then the percentage of the red blood cells compared to the total whole blood volume becomes higher.

So you have more red blood cells and oxygen molecules which attaches to hemogloein on the red blood cells, and that's what fuels and carries your nutrients to the rest of your tissues. You will absolutely have great recovery, and you will have far better oxygen uptake and utilization.

It will really serve you in the later rounds. However, this is important to understand. When they test the blood, they look at the percentage.


Can you provide me with an example of that type of examination or testing of the blood?

As an example, with cyclists, for example, Tour De France cyclists. They test the blood, and if it comes back higher than 50 percent on the side of the red blood cells, they don't ban them, but they suspend them for two weeks for what they call 'Health concerns.'

Okay? So you don't want your baseline hermaticrit to be over 50 percent. They like to target it and keep it at 49 percent. Increasing it from 44-to-49 percent, however, will certainly increase your performance.


Okay, so, can you please apply that to boxing?

So let's back up, hypothetically, okay, to Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather when they were signing or negotiating for their fight, or in the case of the Mayweather-Shane Mosley fight.

If somebody were advising them, they could have used EPO throughout for two weeks, if someone were advising them on how to do it, just like the cyclists do, and they could have previously extracted some of these red blood cells and put them in the refridgerator.

Okay? So then, five weeks out from the fight, coming in, they can't use EPO, because they're being randomly tested and that might be discovered even though the EPO only stays within your system for a day.

But you can re-infuse your own red blood cells. And if you are shown how to re-infuse your red blood cells, they can't detect that.


But they can detect the percentage increase, correct?

But they can detect the percentage, exactly. If you're re-infusing the blood and that percentage starts to drop down, you know, as you're preparing and training for the fight, then you can just re-infuse some of their previously withdrawn red blood cells by intravenous injection.

They can re-infuse that and they can keep it at a steady level of 49 percent all the way up to the fight. So now, that's all undetectable by USADA.


Is that called blood-doping?


That's called blood-doping.


What different types of EPO are there?

Well, you know, there are a number of them. Do you mean brands or are you talking about the different generations?


I mean the ones that would be most applicable to the situation in which it would likely be used to achieve the effects that a boxer might want to achieve?

Well, let me explain something, because I see where you're going with your questions here. And, let me say this. That, the reason that I don't believe that this testing that the United States Anti-Doping Agency did for the Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley fight was truly random...

And I heard over, and over, and over, that it was going to be, 'Random, random, random.' But that is not random when you start five weeks out from a fight, and then you do blood tests until three weeks out from a fight, testing for a couple of weeks, and then you have no blood testing for a final 19 or 18 days.

I know that the threat is there of them blood testing at any time, and that that means that it could be random, but in this particular case, in the end, it really wasn't. Now, you started out by asking 'What is it that a boxer could do?'


Yes, I mean, what desired effect could a boxer get out of this?


Here's something that you have to realize. Let's take an Olympic athlete that is subject to this USADA-type of testing, and they're preparing for a competitive season that leads to the Olympic games -- whether you're an Olympic track athlete, a swimmer, boxer, whatever.

So that's going to be in an August time-frame, of, let's say, for preparation for the Beijing Olympics in 2008. The year before, October, November, December, January, during those months, they can use anabolic steroids in conjunction with an intense weight training program.

And they can develop an explosive strength and speed base. That's going to serve them nine months later at the Olympic games. So, in other words, if it's before that fight, all that they had to do before the start of the testing -- I believe on March 22 for a May 1 fight?

They could have been using testosterone for three months before that date, and the benefits would carry over that five weeks until the fight.

And, in fact, what people don't understand, and we'll talk specifically about anabolic steroids, now, is that you perform far better when you're a couple of weeks off of steroids than you do when you're on steroids.

Why is that?

The reason is that steroids work through a process called 'Cell-voluminaztion.' So it makes you pumped, and you give yourself more nutrients and fluids inside of the cells. And it helps you to grow and it helps you to become stronger, but it also makes you tight. You lack in flexibility and speed.

If you taper off of steroids for two weeks, you can regain a normal water balance and you are faster and more powerful than ever. So, what could have happened is that for two months, let's say, before this March 22 date they used with Mayweather and Mosley, a boxer could have used anabolic steroids.

This is hypothetical here. And then, they go off of them. Well, then you're still, believe me, the benefits of using two months of testosterone or anabolic steroids are still going to be there five weeks later. You are going to retain a lot of the strength and the speed from using the steroids.


So that's a way that you can beat the testing?

You can totally beat the testing, and it's not random because it starts five weeks out from the fight. Random is 24/7, 365 days a year. It's not five weeks before a fight.


When I hear this, 'Random, random, random,' well, what about the five weeks before the USADA testing began when either fighter could have been using anabolic steroids?
Mean Mister Mustard
Thanks for posting the article. It makes one think that if Mayweather knows this, then maybe he has good reason not to fight him.
salvador
That is a great post.

So do we just assume that new steroids are a given in every professional sport?
Method
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 16 2011, 09:11 AM) *
Thanks for posting the article. It makes one think that if Mayweather knows this, then maybe he has good reason not to fight him.

Actually, it makes one think, If Mayweather knows this, why wouldn't he crusade for year-round testing.

Makes one think...Maybe Mayweather is on PED's too?
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 09:20 AM) *
Actually, it makes one think, If Mayweather knows this, why wouldn't he crusade for year-round testing.

Makes one think...Maybe Mayweather is on PED's too?


That's true. He probably does know all this. I mean, someone here mentioned that Mayweather consulted Conte regarding the doping issue, so he more than likely does know. Also, if he is doping, what's the point of all this commotion about Pacquiao doping if both guys are going to be jacked? Maybe either way Mayweather doesn't want to fight Pacquiao?
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 08:16 AM) *



Cheers Meth this was exactly the article I was thinking of.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 09:20 AM) *
Actually, it makes one think, If Mayweather knows this, why wouldn't he crusade for year-round testing.

Makes one think...Maybe Mayweather is on PED's too?


Well I've heard more than one rumor that Mayweather took some time off to make sure he came back as a proper fully fledged WW and you one has to admit that after the layoff he definitely came back a bigger more filled out guy.

Like Conte implies, unless you have fully random 365 days of the year testing then no-one is above suspicion. I wonder why Floyd is not campaigning for this kind of transparency?
Method
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 16 2011, 10:08 AM) *
I wonder why Floyd is not campaigning for this kind of transparency?


I'm not. It's all psych warfare. That's all it is.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 09:18 AM) *
I'm not. It's all psych warfare. That's all it is.


I was trying to be ironic. I have a fair idea why Floyd wouldn't want to touch the year round random testing with a 10 foot barge pole cool.gif
Box in Hand
There is nothing in Mayweather's skill set to suggest he is on something. He has fought pretty much the same since turning pro although he is a little more patient now. I could see him using something for his hands but not anything beyond that. What Manny is doing is very suspect and some of the things he has said is suspect as well so only God knows.
Snoop
The argument that Mayweather could be on PEDs could apply to any professional boxer in the sport, kind of ironic when you think about it since Mayweather and Mosley are the only two fighters to undergo more stringent testing procedures than the ones currently in place.
Method
QUOTE (Snoop @ May 16 2011, 04:03 PM) *
The argument that Mayweather could be on PEDs could apply to any professional boxer in the sport, kind of ironic when you think about it since Mayweather and Mosley are the only two fighters to undergo more stringent testing procedures than the ones currently in place.

More stringent? How. So. It's NO MORE effective than what's in place now. Did you read the article? Victor Conte breaks it all down for you.
Snoop
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 11:50 PM) *
More stringent? How. So. It's NO MORE effective than what's in place now. Did you read the article? Victor Conte breaks it all down for you.

I did. From what I read he's saying it's still possible to cheat under what Mayweather and Mosley went through, which means it's even easier to cheat when those stipulations aren't in place (at least in the sense of going through more motions). I'm not saying testing was effective (as the article thoroughly disproved), but I'm saying it was ironic that article is drawing speculation of Mayweather cheating when that argument could be made more so for every other single boxer that fights professionally.
ks1
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 06:50 PM) *
More stringent? How. So. It's NO MORE effective than what's in place now. Did you read the article? Victor Conte breaks it all down for you.


How so what? You're being disingenuous. It was certainly more stringent than what generally exists in boxing today. Just because, like any testing, it can be beat by a dedicated cheater, doesn't mean it's "no more effective than what's in place today". That's just your silly spin on the Conte article. You don't know if it would be "no more" effective or not if it were widely applied. That's lame conjecture without a basis in fact.
Method
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 16 2011, 08:07 PM) *
How so what? You're being disingenuous. It was certainly more stringent than what generally exists in boxing today. Just because, like any testing, it can be beat by a dedicated cheater, doesn't mean it's "no more effective than what's in place today". That's just your silly spin on the Conte article. You don't know if it would be "no more" effective or not if it were widely applied. That's lame conjecture without a basis in fact.


It's no better than what's in place today. If the sweet spot to juice is weeks/months BEFORE they test, than, it don't matter if they test EVERY DAY once the camps start, or under commission rules. They are EQUALLY INEFFECTIVE. IT MATTERS FUCK ALL. It's not my lame "conjecture". I've done research, both in the lab and in the field, and there are guys like Victor Conte, who knows more than me, that state as such.
ks1
QUOTE (Snoop @ May 16 2011, 07:57 PM) *
I did. From what I read he's saying it's still possible to cheat under what Mayweather and Mosley went through, which means it's even easier to cheat when those stipulations aren't in place (at least in the sense of going through more motions). I'm not saying testing was effective (as the article thoroughly disproved), but I'm saying it was ironic that article is drawing speculation of Mayweather cheating when that argument could be made more so for every other single boxer that fights professionally.


Exactly.

The speculation about Mayweather being put forth by some is just a dubious red herring and shouldn't be taken seriously though I did get a laugh out of the "he filled out in 2 years" line. rolleyes_anim.gif
ks1
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 08:12 PM) *
It's no better than what's in place today. If the sweet spot to juice is weeks/months BEFORE they test, than, it don't matter if they test EVERY DAY once the camps start, or under commission rules. They are EQUALLY INEFFECTIVE. IT MATTERS FUCK ALL. It's not my lame "conjecture". I've done research, both in the lab and in the field, and there are guys like Victor Conte, who knows more than me, that state as such.


No you haven't done any real "research". Posting others opinions doesn't count. Stop it. No need to try and play like you're "an authority" on the internet to support your opinion. As you well know but pretending that you' don't, it's not simply a question of when the tests begin. It's also what being tested that's currently not being tested and, hopefully, enhanced procedures like no advance notice.. etc. Of course the "sweet spot" will always be to juice or blood dope before the event though you could blood dope during the event or "training camp" if you were clever. Duh. Olympic athletes and cyclists have been doing that forever...and still getting caught during "the event" testing. Funny that.

Putting that all aside, your "no better.." spin is losers reasoning. Whether you like Pac of Floyd doesn't matter. Any real fan of the sport should support enhanced testing. The idea that if it's not "24/7/365" random then it's no bettter than what we have today is just just silly. Especially considering how lacking the NSAC has been in terms of modern drug testing though to their credit, they have tried to get up to speed after this bruhaha and some embarrasing incidents involving some UFC fighetrs.
Method
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 16 2011, 08:47 PM) *
No you haven't done any real "research". Posting others opinions doesn't count. Stop it. No need to try and play like you're "an authority" on the internet to support your opinion. As you well know but pretending that you' don't, it's not simply a question of when the tests begin. It's also what being tested that's currently not being tested and, hopefully, enhanced procedures like no advance notice.. etc. Of course the "sweet spot" will always be to juice or blood dope before the event though you could blood dope during the event or "training camp" if you were clever. Duh. Olympic athletes and cyclists have been doing that forever...and still getting caught during "the event" testing. Funny that.

Putting that all aside, your "no better.." spin is losers reasoning. Whether you like Pac of Floyd doesn't matter. Any real fan of the sport should support enhanced testing. The idea that if it's not "24/7/365" random then it's no bettter than what we have today is just just silly. Especially considering how lacking the NSAC has been in terms of modern drug testing though to their credit, they have tried to get up to speed after this bruhaha and some embarrasing incidents involving some UFC fighetrs.

I have done real research, both in the "lab" and in the "field".

Fuck off.

gravytrain
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 08:12 PM) *
It's no better than what's in place today. If the sweet spot to juice is weeks/months BEFORE they test, than, it don't matter if they test EVERY DAY once the camps start, or under commission rules. They are EQUALLY INEFFECTIVE. IT MATTERS FUCK ALL. It's not my lame "conjecture". I've done research, both in the lab and in the field, and there are guys like Victor Conte, who knows more than me, that state as such.


actually if Pac or Mayweather wanted to use EPO they could just do it legally by training at high altitude and using stuff to simulate high altitude. different method but the same results.

but 5 weeks of random testing is better than a post fight urinalysis. there's also a chance they might not get it right either so they could get caught. there are Olympic lifters that have been caught doping and i'll bet my bottom dollar they're putting more effort into the cycle than a pro boxer, if they can get caught anyone can. Ivan Stoitsov got caught doping and Bulgaria puts a lot of effort into their Olympic lifting program and they're training those cats from about age 14 if i remember correctly.
Imperius3
I really can't believe anyone would use a convicted felon like Victor Conte as a reliable source for anything. He's not a doctor or nutritionist, he's more of a corrupt business man. And a shitty musician to boot.

As ks1 and gravytrain have said, while it may still be possible to cheat, blood testing makes it much more difficult to do so. And considering how there are still olympic athletes who get caught, it obviously isn't that easy. Even the article mentions how you have to blood dope to get the benefits of EPO while under that stringent testing. Blood doping is a hassle to go through period. It's not ideal for the athlete's health since the athlete basically becomes anemic and can't train as hard. There's also a chance for blood clots and heart attacks, or the blood being stored improperly.

Meth, what kind of lab work have you done on this?


Method
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 16 2011, 09:26 PM) *
I really can't believe anyone would use a convicted felon like Victor Conte as a reliable source for anything. He's not a doctor or nutritionist, he's more of a corrupt business man. And a shitty musician to boot.

As ks1 and gravytrain have said, while it may still be possible to cheat, blood testing makes it much more difficult to do so. And considering how there are still olympic athletes who get caught, it obviously isn't that easy. Even the article mentions how you have to blood dope to get the benefits of EPO while under that stringent testing. Blood doping is a hassle to go through period. It's not ideal for the athlete's health since the athlete basically becomes anemic and can't train as hard. There's also a chance for blood clots and heart attacks, or the blood being stored improperly.

Meth, what kind of lab work have you done on this?

Right, Conte's just a guy that doped WORLD CLASS ATHLETES AND HAD THEM BEATING TEST AFTER TEST AFTER TEST.

This is kinda funny. Its the equivalent of OJ coming out and confessing to the murder of his wife and all you fucking guys are like "Why would you guys believe OJ, he's a convicted wife beater!!!"
gravytrain
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 16 2011, 09:26 PM) *
I really can't believe anyone would use a convicted felon like Victor Conte as a reliable source for anything. He's not a doctor or nutritionist, he's more of a corrupt business man. And a shitty musician to boot.

As ks1 and gravytrain have said, while it may still be possible to cheat, blood testing makes it much more difficult to do so. And considering how there are still olympic athletes who get caught, it obviously isn't that easy. Even the article mentions how you have to blood dope to get the benefits of EPO while under that stringent testing. Blood doping is a hassle to go through period. It's not ideal for the athlete's health since the athlete basically becomes anemic and can't train as hard. There's also a chance for blood clots and heart attacks, or the blood being stored improperly.

Meth, what kind of lab work have you done on this?


Conte has insight. he paid people to put him and BALCO in a good position and i don't doubt that he knows some shit or pays someone to know things for him. but is the guy the ultimate authority? no. he's someone that paid people to develop the products he sold and was made into a mastermind when the BALCO scandal happened.

either way, whether the proposed testing is unbeatable or not it's better than what boxing has right now. just because they aren't testing 24/7 365 doesn't mean it isn't better than a post fight piss test.
Hops
What's wrong with believing Victor Conte when he laid it down so simple for ordinary people like us to understand. Can somebody please contradict Conte when he said that you could maintain 49% hematocrit by blood doping? What's USADA's standards? Did Conte say something wrong?

And didn't banks hire a criminal named Frank Abagnale to design anti-forgery systems?
Hops
GravyTrain,

Yes, it is better than the current system. Only if cheaters are not cheaters.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 09:30 PM) *
Right, Conte's just a guy that doped WORLD CLASS ATHLETES AND HAD THEM BEATING TEST AFTER TEST AFTER TEST.

This is kinda funny. Its the equivalent of OJ coming out and confessing to the murder of his wife and all you fucking guys are like "Why would you guys believe OJ, he's a convicted wife beater!!!"


test after test before the BALCO scandal. testing has changed a lot since then. what happened to all of them too? returned medals and asterisks on their career.
Hops
I think those caught didn't follow the cheater's protocols. In the same manner that Vargas, et. al did not.
Imperius3
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 08:30 PM) *
Right, Conte's just a guy that doped WORLD CLASS ATHLETES AND HAD THEM BEATING TEST AFTER TEST AFTER TEST.

This is kinda funny. Its the equivalent of OJ coming out and confessing to the murder of his wife and all you fucking guys are like "Why would you guys believe OJ, he's a convicted wife beater!!!"


Conte didn't personally create the products, and he didn't personally dope the athletes either. He simply ran the business. In the end, they all got busted. I'm sure Conte does have knowledge about doping, but not as much as he pretends.

How in the hell is that equivalent to OJ? I don't think it matters if OJ ever confesses or not, the evidence shows he was without a doubt guilty. Now, if OJ were to ever testify as a character witness against someone else, then you could attack his credibility all day.

Do you agree that it would be more difficult for a boxer to cheat with random blood testing? Can you elaborate on the "lab" and "field" work you said you've done on this?
BigDigga
QUOTE (Method @ May 16 2011, 09:20 AM) *
Actually, it makes one think, If Mayweather knows this, why wouldn't he crusade for year-round testing.

Makes one think...Maybe Mayweather is on PED's too?
i've always thought this could be the case

it could be that floyd feels his cheating regimen is better than his. of course floyd's not taking anything for power increase in this theoretical scenario.......just conditioning(epo)


Method
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 17 2011, 12:32 AM) *
Do you agree that it would be more difficult for a boxer to cheat with random blood testing?


No. I do NOT agree. The only way I would agree it would be more difficult is if testing began ~5-6 months out. THEN it becomes more difficult. Random testing, year round is what I believe makes it difficult.

What is being proposed by Floyd is six of one/half dozen of the other in comparison to what's being done now. they can boh be skirted the SAME EXACT WAY, so NO, I do NOT AGREE that it makes it harder.
BigDigga
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 09:11 AM) *
No. I do NOT agree. The only way I would agree it would be more difficult is if testing began ~5-6 months out. THEN it becomes more difficult. Random testing, year round is what I believe makes it difficult.

What is being proposed by Floyd is six of one/half dozen of the other in comparison to what's being done now. they can boh be skirted the SAME EXACT WAY, so NO, I do NOT AGREE that it makes it harder.
year round testing is the best way to go, but better testing will better the chances regardless

from what i understand a lot of these tests can be beaten by taking smaller doses. boxing is a year round sport so the only thing stopping people from doing things the right way is money.....it always the stopper threaten.gif
ks1
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 17 2011, 12:32 AM) *
Conte didn't personally create the products, and he didn't personally dope the athletes either. He simply ran the business. In the end, they all got busted. I'm sure Conte does have knowledge about doping, but not as much as he pretends.

How in the hell is that equivalent to OJ? I don't think it matters if OJ ever confesses or not, the evidence shows he was without a doubt guilty. Now, if OJ were to ever testify as a character witness against someone else, then you could attack his credibility all day.

Do you agree that it would be more difficult for a boxer to cheat with random blood testing? Can you elaborate on the "lab" and "field" work you said you've done on this?


Indeed. The crazy OJ comparison was just a desperate ploy. Btw, you're likely to get the same childish response I got regarding your "lab" and "field" work question. LOL.
Method
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 17 2011, 01:51 PM) *
Indeed. The crazy OJ comparison was just a desperate ploy. Btw, you're likely to get the same childish response I got regarding your "lab" and "field" work question. LOL.

Desperate ploy how?

Conte comes out and tells you hw it IS, and its STILL not good enough for you.

What I said about OJ wasn't a COMPARISON, it was a metaphoric example.

Know the difference.

You can do your own "research", and the information will not deviate.
ks1
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 01:55 PM) *
Desperate ploy how?

Conte comes out and tells you hw it IS, and its STILL not good enough for you.

What I said about OJ wasn't a COMPARISON, it was a metaphoric example.

Know the difference.

You can do your own "research", and the information will not deviate.


You're funny. You've clowned yourself and are now trying to cover it up by being pedantic. Whether the OJ thing was a comparison or metaphor is immaterial. It was a stupid use of either device. Fail.

Conte's not telling anybody how "it is". He's simply offering an opinion though I will grant that's it more informed than the usual but, as has been explained to you, using him as, for lack of a better term, "the expert" is suspect.

What's even more amusing is your pretending to have done "research" on the issue in the "lab!" and "field!" even (lol) just as a way to bolster your take on the Conte article. You've been called on it several times and all youi've done is bluster like a kid and evade. You played yourself. More fail.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 17 2011, 03:30 PM) *
You're funny. You've clowned yourself and are now trying to cover it up by being pedantic. Whether the OJ thing was a comparison or metaphor is immaterial. It was a stupid use of either device. Fail.

Conte's not telling anybody how "it is". He's simply offering an opinion though I will grant that's it more informed than the usual but, as has been explained to you, using him as, for lack of a better term, "the expert" is suspect.

What's even more amusing is your pretending to have done "research" on the issue in the "lab!" and "field!" even (lol) just as a way to bolster your take on the Conte article. You've been called on it several times and all youi've done is bluster like a kid and evade. You played yourself. More fail.



You'll grant that's it's more informed than usual? No fucking kidding. This is a guy who doped OLYMPIC atheletes. To casually dismiss a guy whom was at the very top of his field as merely having a 'more informed' opinion is a joke.

Sure the expert's morals are suspect. His knowledge of what is going on is not. Big difference.
ks1
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 17 2011, 03:59 PM) *
You'll grant that's it's more informed than usual? No fucking kidding. This is a guy who doped OLYMPIC atheletes. To casually dismiss a guy whom was at the very top of his field as merely having a 'more informed' opinion is a joke.

Sure the expert's morals are suspect. His knowledge of what is going on is not. Big difference.


See this is where you guys get crazy. Conte didn't dope anybody himself and, neither he nor BALCO, were at the "very top of their field" whatever that dramatic phrasing means. When BALCO was around, they mostly doped guys in a sport that didn't have testing at the time (baseball) or minimal testing (boxing) and their top OLYMPIC (capped for your taste) athletes were busted. Other than that, they sold very expensive vitamins or supplements that you could get for a fraction of price at GNC. Very top of their field? Um...yeah. I'm not dismissing Conte casually or otherwise. I'm putting him in the proper perspective. Informed but hardly an "expert" unless you fall for his carnival barking salesmanship.

In any event, this is all besides the point. The article was presented here as, I suppose, support for the position that the extra testing requested by Maywesther for the Pac fight, wouldn't work or doesn't matter or whatever when, in fact, it doesn't really support that position.
Method
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 17 2011, 04:42 PM) *
See this is where you guys get crazy. Conte didn't dope anybody himself and, neither he nor BALCO, were at the "very top of their field" whatever that dramatic phrasing means. When BALCO was around, they mostly doped guys in a sport that didn't have testing at the time (baseball) or minimal testing (boxing) and their top OLYMPIC (capped for your taste) athletes were busted. Other than that, they sold very expensive vitamins or supplements that you could get for a fraction of price at GNC. Very top of their field? Um...yeah. I'm not dismissing Conte casually or otherwise. I'm putting him in the proper perspective. Informed but hardly an "expert" unless you fall for his carnival barking salesmanship.

In any event, this is all besides the point. The article was presented here as, I suppose, support for the position that the extra testing requested by Maywesther for the Pac fight, wouldn't work or doesn't matter or whatever when, in fact, it doesn't really support that position.

You're a fucking idiot.

Their top athletes weren't busted for juicing. They were busted for obstruction of justice, etc.

Know the fucking difference.

Do your own research. It wont take long and the info won't waiver. I maintain, I done it all.
ks1
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 06:04 PM) *
You're a fucking idiot.

Their top athletes weren't busted for juicing. They were busted for obstruction of justice, etc.

Know the fucking difference.

Do your own research. It wont take long and the info won't waiver. I maintain, I done it all.



Yeah and Al Capone was busted on tax charges. Anyway, you still huffing and puffing? I didn't say they were busted for juicing (I said they were busted) but anybody who followed the story knows that they were dirty and that the eventual obstruction of justice and lying to federal agent charges arose after Trevor Graham dropped dime to the USADA and Dr. Catlin developed the test for THG. Once that happened, it was over except for the shouting. That eventually led to their lying to the feds. Once again, you're trying to be too clever for your own good and failing.

Are you still yapping about "research"? Goodness do you even know what the word means? After all, we are still waiting for you to show the "lab and field" work you've done on the issue. Now go sit in the corner with your dunce cap on until you can keep up with grown folks.
Method
Hahahaha. I love how you change your tune "of course they weren't busted for juicing".

Then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Regardless if everyone knew they were juicing. THE point...MY POINT, Conte & Co had these guys passing w flying colors. That's the ONLY point.

Your comment...
QUOTE
they mostly doped guys in a sport that didn't have testing at the time (baseball) or minimal testing (boxing) and their top OLYMPIC (capped for your taste) athletes were busted...

Insinuates that they couldn't get their top OLYMPIC (capped for YOUR taste) athletes to pass tests, since olympics were more stringent than baseball, boxing.

In fact, they DID.

As for myself, again, Ive done enough research. In the "lab" and in the "field". Battle tested, and versed.

Real easy to do. Learn to fucking read. That'd be a start.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 17 2011, 04:42 PM) *
See this is where you guys get crazy. Conte didn't dope anybody himself and, neither he nor BALCO, were at the "very top of their field" whatever that dramatic phrasing means. When BALCO was around, they mostly doped guys in a sport that didn't have testing at the time (baseball) or minimal testing (boxing) and their top OLYMPIC (capped for your taste) athletes were busted. Other than that, they sold very expensive vitamins or supplements that you could get for a fraction of price at GNC. Very top of their field? Um...yeah. I'm not dismissing Conte casually or otherwise. I'm putting him in the proper perspective. Informed but hardly an "expert" unless you fall for his carnival barking salesmanship.

In any event, this is all besides the point. The article was presented here as, I suppose, support for the position that the extra testing requested by Maywesther for the Pac fight, wouldn't work or doesn't matter or whatever when, in fact, it doesn't really support that position.



Anytime your client list reads, Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Shane Mosley and Evan Fields (joke) I'd say you are pretty much at the top of your field. However you obviously don't find this list very impressive and dismiss Conte as a bit player.

Each to their own I guess but I'd call that logic crazy.

gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 17 2011, 09:01 PM) *
Anytime your client list reads, Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Shane Mosley and Evan Fields (joke) I'd say you are pretty much at the top of your field. However you obviously don't find this list very impressive and dismiss Conte as a bit player.

Each to their own I guess but I'd call that logic crazy.


does the owner of a car dealership know how to actually build one of those cars? all he's doing is running the business. Conte ran the business and facilitated deals. Patrick Arnold was at the top of his field, Conte was just at the top of supplying the substances.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (gravytrain @ May 17 2011, 08:15 PM) *
does the owner of a car dealership know how to actually build one of those cars? all he's doing is running the business. Conte ran the business and facilitated deals. Patrick Arnold was at the top of his field, Conte was just at the top of supplying the substances.


I'd say that if someone ran a particular brand of car delaership then yes I would expect them to know the finer details of the cars they are selling. Right down to the intricate details? Maybe not, but I'd expect them to know a whole lot fucken more about cars than me that's why I'm at the dealership, I'm there to get their expertise on the subject.

I'm sure when the likes of Mosley and Bonds met Conte and he explained to them about cycling on and cycling off and what the Balco products could do thye were relying on his (and his teams) advice to get them clean results.

And guess what? That's exactly what he delivered. If he knows so little why is his opinion and thoughts still sought to this day from both sides of the fence? And if Hype is to be believed (and I see no reason why he shouldn't) Floyd's own camp has sought his advice on these issues.

But go on continue to dismiss the relevance of his opinion it only makes me laugh harder.
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 17 2011, 09:34 PM) *
I'd say that if someone ran a particular brand of car delaership then yes I would expect them to know the finer details of the cars they are selling. Right down to the intricate details? Maybe not, but I'd expect them to know a whole lot fucken more about cars than me that's why I'm at the dealership, I'm there to get their expertise on the subject.

I'm sure when the likes of Mosley and Bonds met Conte and he explained to them about cycling on and cycling off and what the Balco products could do thye were relying on his (and his teams) advice to get them clean results.

And guess what? That's exactly what he delivered. If he knows so little why is his opinion and thoughts still sought to this day from both sides of the fence? And if Hype is to be believed (and I see no reason why he shouldn't) Floyd's own camp has sought his advice on these issues.

But go on continue to dismiss the relevance of his opinion it only makes me laugh harder.



dismiss his opinion? i haven't done that, some people just give him a lot more credit than he deserves since the BALCO scandal really just focused on him. he was a salesman, the only thing i can think of that he actually created was ZMA. his opinion is probably sought on the issue since he was made out to be some mastermind. he spent a lot of time working in the industry so obviously he'll know more than the average person, whether or not he's the best person to consult is debatable though. he's just the most famous because of the BALCO scandal.

if you really want to laugh i can link you to a thread where people think a guy is some sort of genius when he didn't even create his company's worthwhile products and his involvement with athletes could have just been taking information given to him by employees then repeating it to the athletes.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (gravytrain @ May 17 2011, 10:11 PM) *
dismiss his opinion? i haven't done that, some people just give him a lot more credit than he deserves since the BALCO scandal really just focused on him. he was a salesman, the only thing i can think of that he actually created was ZMA. his opinion is probably sought on the issue since he was made out to be some mastermind. he spent a lot of time working in the industry so obviously he'll know more than the average person, whether or not he's the best person to consult is debatable though. he's just the most famous because of the BALCO scandal.

if you really want to laugh i can link you to a thread where people think a guy is some sort of genius when he didn't even create his company's worthwhile products and his involvement with athletes could have just been taking information given to him by employees then repeating it to the athletes.


Gravy re-check your car dealership post. Your own words said he was just the guy supplying. The implication is pretty much that Conte doesn't know that much about what he was selling.

I'm saying yeah OK if he is the one doing the supplying then chances are he knows quite a bit about the product he's supplying.

Any good salesperson, and with the likes of Bonds, Jones and Mosley buying off of him he must have been good, will know a fair bit about the product they are selling and also what he could guarantee, which is they don't get caught. Hence I'd say he knows a lot more than the average or even above average posters on internet forums.

Due to his history in this area I'm prepared to listen to Victor Conte as a very valid source of information on the subject. As for the morals of the dude? Look that's a different debate but the man clearly knows his onions. Much more than you or I.

If I was going to consult anyone I think I'd consult a guy who has a history of supplying world class athletes and his companies product consistently passing them as clean. I love the way you minimize that history by saying he just repeated the information his employees gave him. Ha ha, yeah right. Mate I don't know if you've ever been in sales for a living but I have and I can tell you one thing right away, if you're gonna be any good at it then you have to have a thorough product knowledge. The better you know every last detail of the product you are selling and the way it works the better you will be.

It doesn't matter if he actually created them, it does matter that he knows how they work.
Method
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 17 2011, 11:21 PM) *
It doesn't matter if he actually created them, it does matter that he knows how they work.


There ya go.


Imperius3
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 08:11 AM) *
No. I do NOT agree. The only way I would agree it would be more difficult is if testing began ~5-6 months out. THEN it becomes more difficult. Random testing, year round is what I believe makes it difficult.

What is being proposed by Floyd is six of one/half dozen of the other in comparison to what's being done now. they can boh be skirted the SAME EXACT WAY, so NO, I do NOT AGREE that it makes it harder.


I really don't see how you can't agree. The article even mentions how an EPO user would be forced to blood dope and keep his blood percentage at 49%. That itself makes it more difficult, no?


QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 07:50 PM) *
As for myself, again, Ive done enough research. In the "lab" and in the "field". Battle tested, and versed.


What do you mean by this? Are you going to elaborate on this or not?


QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 17 2011, 08:01 PM) *
Anytime your client list reads, Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Shane Mosley and Evan Fields (joke) I'd say you are pretty much at the top of your field. However you obviously don't find this list very impressive and dismiss Conte as a bit player.

Each to their own I guess but I'd call that logic crazy.


I don't see why anyone should find that list "impressive", especially considering how all of those athletes got into deep shit. Two of the athletes you mention, Bonds and Jones, have both failed drugs tests too. So maybe Conte isn't as admirable as you think. But yeah, to each their own.

I almost regret making my previous Conte remark since now Pacman/Anti-Mayweather/Pro-PED fans are now trying to use it to slide through their bullshit like some greasy defense attorney. I stand by what I said though because I don't think Conte is as knowledgeable as some claim, and I also wouldn't be surprised if Team Pacquiao threw him some money to help spin their bullshit (which was the main point I was alluding). Conte is an admitted liar and cheat, and he wouldn't be above doing that.

I'm still hoping Pac will agree to the tests. I really hope they are just holding off to help build up the fight...but I doubt it. The suspicion of Pac using something is very high right now, and if I were in that situation I would immediately roll up my sleeves and demand them to draw my blood on the spot. I would prove that I have nothing to hide, I would want to put an end to it. Instead, Pac would rather hide behind his promoter and lawyers, which makes him look more guilty than the Ramsey's.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 18 2011, 07:18 AM) *
I don't see why anyone should find that list "impressive", especially considering how all of those athletes got into deep shit. Two of the athletes you mention, Bonds and Jones, have both failed drugs tests too. So maybe Conte isn't as admirable as you think. But yeah, to each their own.

I almost regret making my previous Conte remark since now Pacman/Anti-Mayweather/Pro-PED fans are now trying to use it to slide through their bullshit like some greasy defense attorney. I stand by what I said though because I don't think Conte is as knowledgeable as some claim, and I also wouldn't be surprised if Team Pacquiao threw him some money to help spin their bullshit (which was the main point I was alluding). Conte is an admitted liar and cheat, and he wouldn't be above doing that.

I'm still hoping Pac will agree to the tests. I really hope they are just holding off to help build up the fight...but I doubt it. The suspicion of Pac using something is very high right now, and if I were in that situation I would immediately roll up my sleeves and demand them to draw my blood on the spot. I would prove that I have nothing to hide, I would want to put an end to it. Instead, Pac would rather hide behind his promoter and lawyers, which makes him look more guilty than the Ramsey's.


Right so we've got Barry Bonds owning an all time record in Baseball, Marion Jones the most successful female track athlete in Olympic history and Shane Mosley whom was at brief point considered the p4p best boxer in the world.

And none of them got caught, as I understand it, by testing positive.

OK not impressive then. laugh.gif

Why would Pac's team throw money at Conte? From what he has said he finds both PBF's and Manny's development as potentially suspect. And apparently according to Hype Mayweather's team have consulted with Conte on the subject of testing. Now I don't know if they paid for those consults but I would say it's possible.

So as to who has paid Conte I think you may have got that all around the wrong way champ.
Imperius3
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 18 2011, 07:29 AM) *
Right so we've got Barry Bonds owning an all time record in Baseball, Marion Jones the most successful female track athlete in Olympic history and Shane Mosley whom was at brief point considered the p4p best boxer in the world.

And none of them got caught, as I understand it, by testing positive.

OK not impressive then. laugh.gif

Why would Pac's team throw money at Conte? From what he has said he finds both PBF's and Manny's development as potentially suspect. And apparently according to Hype Mayweather's team have consulted with Conte on the subject of testing. Now I don't know if they paid for those consults but I would say it's possible.

So as to who has paid Conte I think you may have got that all around the wrong way champ.


Once again, both Bonds and Jones have tested positive and FAILED drug tests. Look it up before you post again.

Look, do you agree that it would be more difficult for a boxer to cheat with random blood testing, even if it's just through training camp? The answer is obvious, and if you deny it, I think it shows a great amount of bias and irrationality on your part.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 18 2011, 08:39 AM) *
Once again, both Bonds and Jones have tested positive and FAILED drug tests. Look it up before you post again.

Look, do you agree that it would be more difficult for a boxer to cheat with random blood testing, even if it's just through training camp? The answer is obvious, and if you deny it, I think it shows a great amount of bias and irrationality on your part.



No I don't because as Conte has stated that the best work on the drugs would be done and completed before testing even begins. In other words Pac could've (or Mayweather for that matter) have cycled off the shit before the training camp (and testing) has started.

Unless we are talking year round random testing I think random testing in the training camp before a big fight is essentially meaningless as the program could well be finished by that stage.
ks1
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2011, 08:50 PM) *
Hahahaha. I love how you change your tune "of course they weren't busted for juicing".

Then SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Regardless if everyone knew they were juicing. THE point...MY POINT, Conte & Co had these guys passing w flying colors. That's the ONLY point.

Your comment...

Insinuates that they couldn't get their top OLYMPIC (capped for YOUR taste) athletes to pass tests, since olympics were more stringent than baseball, boxing.

In fact, they DID.

As for myself, again, Ive done enough research. In the "lab" and in the "field". Battle tested, and versed.

Real easy to do. Learn to fucking read. That'd be a start.



Wow, you REALLY are dumb kid. The only thing you've established is that you know how to say the word fuck. My statement doesn't insinuate anything of the sort. While I'm having a good time laughing at you as you try and pick parts of my statement that you can handle and still failing, I kind of pity you. Especailly as you keep your obvious lie about your "research" background going. It's kind of pathetic at this point.
Method
QUOTE (ks1 @ May 18 2011, 09:30 AM) *
Especailly as you keep your obvious lie about your "research" background going. It's kind of pathetic at this point.

Is it? Its real easy to do. READ. What else can I tell you. Read a fucking book. Talk to doctors. Experiment. Do you need it spoon-fed? Educate yourself.

QUOTE
"I really don't see how you can't agree. The article even mentions how an EPO user would be forced to blood dope and keep his blood percentage at 49%. That itself makes it more difficult, no?" - Imperius


He keeps his red blood cell count at 49% - Higher than normal, but just low enough that it won't trip any "alarms". So again, NO, I don't think the random testing being proposed by Team Mayweather makes it ANY harder to dope.
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