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SmartyBeardo
Let's make it your ATG and current top five lists?
Spyder
Willie Pep
Pernell Whitaker
SRR
Benny Leonard
Archie Moore

James Toney
Floyd Mayweather
Sergio Martinez
Hopkins
Winky

Probably in that order for me.
riddick
Mayweather
Whitaker
Hopkins
Toney
Wright
riddick
Judah?????
Box in Hand
1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Willie Pep
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. James Toney
neophyte7
ALL TIME
Willie Pepp
Benitez
Jack Johnson
Pernell Whitaker
Ali

Current
Floyd
BH
Judah
Adamek
Winky
neophyte7



QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 24 2011, 10:51 AM) *
Good calls on Jack and Adamek, Neo.



yes sir.. JACK JOHNSON has been called the greatest defensive heavyweight by many...people sleep on Adamek.. he is a better fighter at heavyweight and the guys have a hard time hitting him... Vitali may get upset...
TheFonz
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 24 2011, 09:43 AM) *
Willie Pep
Pernell Whitaker
SRR
Benny Leonard
Archie Moore

James Toney
Floyd Mayweather
Sergio Martinez
Hopkins
Winky

Probably in that order for me.



Sergio is one my faves right now and I have always been luke warm towards B-Hop but I think that the Executioner deserves to be ahead of Maravilla on that list, shit I might even put Winky ahead of Sergio, but everything else looks good.
Spyder
QUOTE (TheFonz @ Jun 24 2011, 11:08 AM) *
Sergio is one my faves right now and I have always been luke warm towards B-Hop but I think that the Executioner deserves to be ahead of Maravilla on that list, shit I might even put Winky ahead of Sergio, but everything else looks good.

I can't really argue with that. I would say I'm more impressed with Maravilla's head movement than I am with Hopkin's "rhino charge-and-hold", or Winky's "Turtle shell". All are extremely effective.
Box in Hand
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 24 2011, 08:39 AM) *
. . . and current?



Since May is back I go with him. His hit and not get hit ratio has got to be off the charts. Bernard gets hit too much now for me because of his age and willingness to engage.
Spyder
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ Jun 24 2011, 03:08 PM) *
Since May is back I go with him. His hit and not get hit ratio has got to be off the charts. Bernard gets hit too much now for me because of his age and willingness to engage.

He's asking for two lists...ATG and Current.
Fitz
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 25 2011, 06:50 AM) *
He's asking for two lists...ATG and Current.


Exactly. He kind of explained after his last fight. Saying something along the lines of him being more conservative for a portion of fights because he wanted to preserve himself for a bit, and now go out with a bang.
He has done this very well.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 24 2011, 06:09 PM) *
Exactly. He kind of explained after his last fight. Saying something along the lines of him being more conservative for a portion of fights because he wanted to preserve himself for a bit, and now go out with a bang.
He has done this very well.

Actually Spyder was referring to the fact that I was hoping to get people to give there top 5 ATG defensive fighter list as well as their active fighters top 5 defensive fighter list.
Fitz
Haha. I'm such an idiot. I read what he was saying wrong.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 24 2011, 06:30 PM) *
Haha. I'm such an idiot. I read what he was saying wrong.

Nah.

I am surprised that I can't get more people to do 5 man lists.
Spyder
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 24 2011, 10:16 AM) *
Good lists.

The reason I did this thread is I started going back and checking out retired boxers again thanks to the thread asking whether Tszyu deserved to be in the IBHOF.

The tough part is choosing the top 5 because there are many great defensive fighters. Most must be left out.

Willie Pep
230(65)-11-1

Nicolino Locche
117(14)-4(1)-14

Carlos Monzon
87(59)-3-9

Muhammed Ali
56(37)-5

Wilfred Benitez
53(31)-8-1

Current- (I just can't consider Toney active)

FMJ

BHop

Chris John

Felix Sturm

Zab Judah


I really like benitez. It was tough for me to exclude him from my list, but archie did too much to be left off.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 24 2011, 06:43 PM) *
I really like benitez. It was tough for me to exclude him from my list, but archie did too much to be left off.

No doubt Moore is deserving but so are a load of dudes. That's why I started this . . . to see what everybody else thinks. Archie was just amazing but Benitez v Hearns cemented my eternal respect for Wilfred even in a loss.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
Floyd has to be a top 5 all time greatest def. Has to.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (ChadSaysTakeTheTest @ Jun 24 2011, 06:55 PM) *
Floyd has to be a top 5 all time greatest def. Has to.

On your list he does. So give us those lists.
AussieLad
Gatti, Micky Ward, Katsidis
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 24 2011, 07:04 PM) *
Gatti, Micky Ward, Katsidis

No shit, DownUnderling! I forgot about George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Boom Boom Mancini, Danny Little Red Lopez . . . aggressive.gif
caneman
I'll give my list in the morning even though I already know! But I have to ask Beardo, while Monzon was great how can he be tops with 9 draws back then?
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (caneman @ Jun 24 2011, 07:20 PM) *
I'll give my list in the morning even though I already know! But I have to ask Beardo, while Monzon was great how can he be tops with 9 draws back then?

Similar answer as Loche. Monzons draws (like his losses) were early in his career. While I have not seen those fights, I have to assume he got the draws with his D, given how he developed defensively. The footage that I have been able to dig up on Monzon is impressive overall but especially defensively. He was similar to Holmes and FMJ in his ability to recover from being hurt. His movement (especially headwise) reminded me of Ali. Seldom did anyone land flush even when the punches appeared to land. He slipped them and had that uncanny ability to move with them. Of course his chin was impressive also.
BoxingWizard23
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ Jun 24 2011, 10:34 AM) *
1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Willie Pep
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. James Toney

good list
Hops
My top 5. ATG and CURRENT merged.

1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Floyd Mayweather
4. Floyd Mayweather
5. Floyd Mayweather

Any other list is dead wrong.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Hops @ Jun 24 2011, 08:25 PM) *
My top 5. ATG and CURRENT merged.

1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Floyd Mayweather
3. Floyd Mayweather
4. Floyd Mayweather
5. Floyd Mayweather

Any other list is dead wrong.

Hops, dig deep and come up with your own list . . . or stay the fuck outta my thread.
Hops
Sorry. So here's mine.

1.Arturo Gatti
2.Freddie Roach
3.Tex Cobb
4.Jake Lamotta
5.Gene Fullmer
6.Ad Wolfgast
7.Carmen Basillio
8.Battling Nelson
9.Harry Greb
10.Butterbean
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Hops @ Jun 24 2011, 10:54 PM) *
Sorry. So here's mine.

1.Arturo Gatti
2.Freddie Roach
3.Tex Cobb
4.Jake Lamotta
5.Gene Fullmer
6.Ad Wolfgast
7.Carmen Basillio
8.Battling Nelson
9.Harry Greb
10.Butterbean

At least that is an attempt at humor, but DownUnderling beat you to it. BTW, it is supposed to be the top 5 best defensive fighters.
Hops
Best defensive or most defensive fighters? I've seen fighters with great defense if they wanted to use it. Most of the time, they didn't. Are they excluded from the list?

I've seen Ali sticking his face out and the opponent couldn't even hit it once in 10 shots.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Hops @ Jun 24 2011, 11:07 PM) *
Best defensive or most defensive fighters? I've seen fighters with great defense if they wanted to use it. Most of the time, they didn't. Are they excluded from the list?

I've seen Ali sticking his face out and the opponent couldn't even hit it once in 10 shots.

Best Hops. Best ATG defensive and best active defensive fighters.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
All time
Floyd
Pep
Whitaker
Ali(step-back knockout
Jones Jr(Prime reflexes were amazing)
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (ChadSaysTakeTheTest @ Jun 24 2011, 11:21 PM) *
All time
Floyd
Pep
Whitaker
Ali(step-back knockout
Jones Jr(Prime reflexes were amazing)

Surprisingly you are the first to have RJJ on your list. Good call.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 24 2011, 11:23 PM) *
Surprisingly you are the first to have RJJ on your list. Good call.

Anyone in my mind that can stick their face out with their hands down..and dodge..beyond skills.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (ChadSaysTakeTheTest @ Jun 24 2011, 11:29 PM) *
Anyone in my mind that can stick their face out with their hands down..and dodge..beyond skills.

If you like that style you should go to the trouble of checking out Nicolino Locche. There are some youtube vids of him. He was absolutely amazing.
Hops
Okay. I have:

All Time

Roy - couldn't get hit even when sticking his face out (in his prime)
Ali - same as roy jones, although most of the time he lets his opponent get tired by letting them hit him
Whitaker - super dooper boring you will scream mad as his opponent to do a NO MAS
Floyd - got hit when he got his face stuck out, so just #4
James Toney - how couldn't anyone knock out a lumbering mcdonald's ingesting machine


ChadSaysTakeTheTest
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 24 2011, 11:33 PM) *
If you like that style you should go to the trouble of checking out Nicolino Locche. There are some youtube vids of him. He was absolutely amazing.

Wow..old videos but he's pretty amazing. Where do him and Roy rank among your list of def fighters?
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Hops @ Jun 24 2011, 11:41 PM) *
Okay. I have:

All Time

Roy - couldn't get hit even when sticking his face out (in his prime)
Ali - same as roy jones, although most of the time he lets his opponent get tired by letting them hit him
Whitaker - super dooper boring you will scream mad as his opponent to do a NO MAS
Floyd - got hit when he got his face stuck out, so just #4
James Toney - how couldn't anyone knock out a lumbering mcdonald's ingesting machine

Good list Hops. Toney is a freak of nature.

Check out the old vids of Carlos Monzon. He was kind of a cross between Ali, FMJ and Holmes.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (ChadSaysTakeTheTest @ Jun 24 2011, 11:44 PM) *
Wow..old videos but he's pretty amazing. Where do him and Roy rank among your list of def fighters?

RJJ is up there but Locche is in my top 5. There are so many great defensive fighters in boxing history that are obscure. There is no right or wrong answer.

If you want to see an earlier version of FMJ, watch Wilfred Benitez v SRL and Hearns. He lost both of those fights but his defense was just phenomenal.
neophyte7
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ Jun 24 2011, 03:08 PM) *
Since May is back I go with him. His hit and not get hit ratio has got to be off the charts. Bernard gets hit too much now for me because of his age and willingness to engage.


Hopkins engages because he knows after calzaghe he will be jobbed on the cards!!! Hopkins puts on the D when he needs it now. When he was hurt against Pascal he went into defensive mode with head and feet movement that was just amazing to see 46 year old doing. Still one of the best defensive fighters on the PLANET!!!


QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 24 2011, 10:04 PM) *
Gatti, Micky Ward, Katsidis


AGAIN, I SPILLED A DRINK lmao

QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 25 2011, 02:49 AM) *
RJJ is up there but Locche is in my top 5. There are so many great defensive fighters in boxing history that are obscure. There is no right or wrong answer.

JONES was fighting school teachers, garbage men and police men....

If you want to see an earlier version of FMJ, watch Wilfred Benitez v SRL and Hearns. He lost both of those fights but his defense was just phenomenal.


BENITEZ D WAS AMAZING against Hearns and people don't REMEMBER HEARNS FIGHTING ONE HANDED BECAUSE HE BROKE THE RIGHT... tremendous skill by hearns fighting Benitez, an all time great with only his left and beating him... tommy hearns was a bad mofo...
Hops
This topic is complex. Who is skillfully more defensive? Whitaker or Floyd? Would Whitaker have been as elusive if he was orthodox?
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
Hell yea hearns was a bad mofo but rumors he had a suspect chin
neophyte7
This topic is complex. Who is skillfully more defensive? Whitaker or Floyd? Would Whitaker have been as elusive if he was orthodox? HOPS


that is a great question... the southpaw stance in and of itself presents awkwardness that enhances one's defense it seems...... Whitaker id alot of ad libbing defensively and reflex response.. Floyd uses technique along with reflexes and to me is a more solid defender
Lil-lightsout
I go back to the mid to late 80's so I can not possibly state any of those old school fighters. But I will just name some of the top defensive guys I remember off the top of my head(in their primes).

Toney is easily number 1 in my book.

Whitaker would be number 2.

Mayweather would be 3.

Roy Jones 4.

Michael Nunn 5.


Oh... the last thing I think of is defense when I think of Zab Judah.
Hops
C'mon Lil-lightsout, Zab Judah has superb defense. He has it for 20 seconds of each round up to round #6.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Jun 25 2011, 01:26 AM) *
I go back to the mid to late 80's so I can not possibly state any of those old school fighters. But I will just name some of the top defensive guys I remember off the top of my head(in their primes).

Toney is easily number 1 in my book.

Whitaker would be number 2.

Mayweather would be 3.

Roy Jones 4.

Michael Nunn 5.


Oh... the last thing I think of is defense when I think of Zab Judah.


QUOTE (Hops @ Jun 25 2011, 01:59 AM) *
C'mon Lil-lightsout, Zab Judah has superb defense. He has it for 20 seconds of each round up to round #6.

Finally. It took some pages but the blackhead I planted in the beginning is coming to the surface.

Zab's resurgence is nearly exclusively due to his improved defense under the tutelage of Sweet Pea. Without that massively improved defense he would not have made it to the final bell to have the opportunity to be awarded the decision v Matthysse. Judah showed maturity when he took a knee when he got caught by the Argentinian. A younger Zab would have tried to stay up and would have been KOed.

In his last fight he demonstrated the ability to stay in rounds without mounting an offense to speak of. Then after frustrating his opponent for several rounds he came alive and KOed him with little to no risk.

Amere Con has not been in the rings with the likes of this version of Zab, but Judah has been in the ring with several fighters equal to or above Amere's level. Zab Judah will defeat Amere Con with defense first and a lethal offensive attack second. He has had that much more time under the wing of one of the defensive genius's of the modern era . . . and he hasn't lost his one punch power.
neophyte7
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 25 2011, 10:19 AM) *
Finally. It took some pages but the blackhead I planted in the beginning is coming to the surface.

Zab's resurgence is nearly exclusively due to his improved defense under the tutelage of Sweet Pea. Without that massively improved defense he would not have made it to the final bell to have the opportunity to be awarded the decision v Matthysse. Judah showed maturity when he took a knee when he got caught by the Argentinian. A younger Zab would have tried to stay up and would have been KOed.

In his last fight he demonstrated the ability to stay in rounds without mounting an offense to speak of. Then after frustrating his opponent for several rounds he came alive and KOed him with little to no risk.

Amere Con has not been in the rings with the likes of this version of Zab, but Judah has been in the ring with several fighters equal to or above Amere's level. Zab Judah will defeat Amere Con with defense first and a lethal offensive attack second. He has had that much more time under the wing of one of the defensive genius's of the modern era . . . and he hasn't lost his one punch power.



Good post. People need to open their eyes on Judah.. Dude has a new brain and new heart.. he has seen the wizard!!! Khan may get his clock cleaned... Mabuza who people say is shit after Judah Ko'd him yet prior to Judah stopping him people were picking Zab to get his usual ass kicking. His last two fights he has used his head, listened to his corner that now offers more advice than Joel's BOOM BOOM POW INSTRUCTIONS... WHITAKER IS DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB AND JUDAH IS GOOD FOR sweet pea too who looks like he is finally off CRACK!!!
Prov0
ATG
1.Floyd Mayweather Jr
2.Pernell Whitaker
3.Willie Pep
4.Jack Johnson
5.James Toney

Current
1.Floyd
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Prov0 @ Jun 25 2011, 11:04 AM) *
ATG
1.Floyd Mayweather Jr
2.Pernell Whitaker
3.Willie Pep
4.Jack Johnson
5.James Toney

Current
1.Floyd

Nobody else who is active deserves a mention?
Box in Hand
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 24 2011, 02:50 PM) *
He's asking for two lists...ATG and Current.



I think I gave both.
JONdaCON817
better late then never...

Sweat Pea (personal Fav)
Robinson
ALI
Marciano
RJJ
Sugar Ray Robinson and Leonard

Mayweather
BHop
Toney
Winky
JuanManuel Marquez (pretty underrated IMO)

... i also like E. Augustus. i loved watchin him weave and kicc a leg up. His defense wasnt GREAT but unorthodox and fun to watch. Holmes, Duran and Marciano get the Honorable mention.

Andre Ward, Sergio Martinez, and Dirrell get Honorable Mention for my Current Fighters
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