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Extant
Whatup FightHype Community!!!

The following is my response (edited) and co-sign to a poster on another site. I'm posting it here first because I find the posters on the FH forums to be some of the most intelligent, rational thinking posters despite some 'front page' issues (Oops, didn't mean to have that one slip! LOL).

Here goes:

The upcoming David Have/Wladomir Klitschko bout has Clay/Liston implications written all over it!

What cannot be overlooked is, much like Clay, Haye is looked at primarily as a loud-mouthed pretty boy (No Homo) with little to no chance of beating a boxer who, much like Liston, is the most dominant heavyweight of a dark era besides his brother Vitali.

I'm sure there would be immediate, even raging responses calling this view absurd. And what may be misleading or blinding fans from of the similarities is the Legend that has become Muhammad Ali. Cassius Clay was not the star the Ali was and, at the time of his first bout with Liston, was viewed only as an entertaining boxer who was somewhat unknown to casual fans.

Now, while the abilities and/or skills between Haye/Clay & Vlad/Liston may not compare, the implications are strikingly similar as the outcome of the fight can and may very well change the direction of the HW division for the better IMO.

What do Y'all think?

Quick Jabs:

1.Regarding that "staredown" Vlad gave Have after Max Kellerman mentioned the T-shirt incident... Is it me? Or to those who saw 'Rocky IV', did you feel an aura coming from Vlad that said "I must bddrreak you..."?

2.Don't care much for Larry Merchant, but he was SPOT ON during the Alexander/Mattyse postfight interview when Devon suggested he be given props for his effort and Larry says "Not by that much...".
True-Boxing-Fan
QUOTE (Extant @ Jun 30 2011, 11:46 AM) *
I'm sure there would be immediate, even raging responses calling this view absurd. And what may be misleading or blinding fans from of the similarities is the Legend that has become Muhammad Ali. Cassius Clay was not the star the Ali was and, at the time of his first bout with Liston, was viewed only as an entertaining boxer who was somewhat unknown to casual fans.

Now, while the abilities and/or skills between Haye/Clay & Vlad/Liston may not compare, the implications are strikingly similar as the outcome of the fight can and may very well change the direction of the HW division for the better IMO.

Well honestly Cassius Clay at the time of the first Liston fight might not have been the star and legend that he is now but the man was widely known in America. He was an olymipic gold medalist in a time when americans took that serious. He was more hated back then than anything, but he wasn't some obscure loudmouth guy trying to upset the champion. He was known.

Also here's a question, let's say haye does upset Wlad and then goes on to beat his brother, then he does retire like he has been saying. How is that going to be good for the heavyweight division. It would put it in a even shitter spot IMO. As bad as people think the Klitschkos are for the heavyweight division, I think Haye would be even worse especially if he upset both brothers and then just retires.
Maxy
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Jun 30 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Well honestly Cassius Clay at the time of the first Liston fight might not have been the star and legend that he is now but the man was widely known in America. He was an olymipic gold medalist in a time when americans took that serious. He was more hated back then than anything, but he wasn't some obscure loudmouth guy trying to upset the champion. He was known.

Also here's a question, let's say haye does upset Wlad and then goes on to beat his brother, then he does retire like he has been saying. How is that going to be good for the heavyweight division. It would put it in a even shitter spot IMO. As bad as people think the Klitschkos are for the heavyweight division, I think Haye would be even worse especially if he upset both brothers and then just retires.


Do Americans not take the Olympics seriously anymore?

Or is it that they just don't produce the talent pool anymore?
True-Boxing-Fan
QUOTE (Maxy @ Jun 30 2011, 01:22 PM) *
Do Americans not take the Olympics seriously anymore?

Or is it that they just don't produce the talent pool anymore?

Americans do take the olympics serious but it's olympic boxing that Americans don't give a shit about. Olympic boxing is just a side note now. The 80's were the last time olympic boxing was front and center in America and De La Hoya was last last olympic boxing hero and he was part of the '92 Olympics. Andre Ward was a gold medalist in 2004 and now a champion but he is noway near from being a household name here in America.
mgrover
when I first saw your post I thought hmm, Wlad is Clay and Haye is the offensive fighter. Other than that, he won't win unless he manages to penetrate that jab. So we'll have to see, David Hayes trainer is smart enough to work out a plan for the jab but its either Haye listens rather than tries to go all out and burn out in the first 4-6 rounds.
FightHypeRules
you lost me when you resorted to "no homo".

I can't take you seriously after that. Sorry.
gravytrain
Clay was in the mix but he's a top 10 HW and Liston was the champ, the trash talking just made it so Ali didn't have to earn the title shot by beating out guys in the top 10. he created such a demand for the fight that Liston just couldn't pass it up and went into it a big underdog.

this is no Clay vs Liston.

QUOTE (Maxy @ Jun 30 2011, 04:22 PM) *
Do Americans not take the Olympics seriously anymore?

Or is it that they just don't produce the talent pool anymore?


i think the biggest problem is the talent pool. Deontay Wilder got some attention for getting a bronze medal but there's just no one out there fighting for the US dominating their way to a gold medal. that and the program is pretty fucking bad seeing as USA boxing hasn't won a gold medal in quite some time now and i don't see them winning one in the upcoming Olympics. one of the women might win a gold medal but we all know that doesn't count for anything.
King Eugene
I was actually thinking this yesterday but unfortunately history wont repeat itself in this case but I hope to God I'm wrong.

David Haye don't let me down!
thehype
QUOTE (Extant @ Jun 30 2011, 02:46 PM) *
I find the posters on the FH forums to be some of the most intelligent, rational thinking posters despite some 'front page' issues (Oops, didn't mean to have that one slip! LOL).


What 'front page' issues are you still complaining about? I thought I cleared that up. If you're looking for 'intelligent, rational thinking posters', this is the right place to be as opposed to wading through a sea of idiot racists who leave childish, immature, unknowledgeable comments (Oops, didn't mean to have that one slip! LOL). CLEARLY you've now been directed to the right area of the site to have grown-up discussions.
Extant
QUOTE (FightHypeRules @ Jun 30 2011, 02:28 PM) *
you lost me when you resorted to "no homo".

I can't take you seriously after that. Sorry.


My apologies to you Sir or Ma'am as it appears that my use of "No Homo" has offended you in some way. I garner no hatred for homosexuals in any way, shape, or form. And since my post isn't an Official Journal or Article, I didn't see the problem with writing an opinionated post while obeying "hood rules" at the same time.

Therefore, there's no need for you to be "Sorry".

Extant
QUOTE (thehype @ Jul 1 2011, 09:29 AM) *
What 'front page' issues are you still complaining about? I thought I cleared that up. If you're looking for 'intelligent, rational thinking posters', this is the right place to be as opposed to wading through a sea of idiot racists who leave childish, immature, unknowledgeable comments (Oops, didn't mean to have that one slip! LOL). CLEARLY you've now been directed to the right area of the site to have grown-up discussions.


My apologies to you sir. You did indeed make that clear the other day as my statement was not meant to be "childish, immature, and unknowledgeable" and was not written with malicious intentions.

In fact, I was only making light of those "issues" that I didn't get into as I never took them personal.
Sunmanken
I think the difference may be that Clay had apparent talent, and most thought it was overrated. Liston was due to expose that fact. In this instance, David Haye's primary weaknesses are already apparent...which is what people are basing their expectation on. Dig?
Extant
QUOTE (Sunmanken @ Jul 1 2011, 10:25 AM) *
I think the difference may be that Clay had apparent talent, and most thought it was overrated. Liston was due to expose that fact. In this instance, David Haye's primary weaknesses are already apparent...which is what people are basing their expectation on. Dig?


"Most thought it was overrated" You actually prove my point with that statement. People thought that Clay had weaknesses also especially after getting knocked SMOOVE off his feet by Henry Cooper's left hook before he fought Liston.
Extant
QUOTE (Extant @ Jul 1 2011, 10:43 AM) *
"Most thought it was overrated" You actually prove my point with that statement. People thought that Clay had weaknesses also especially after getting knocked SMOOVE off his feet by Henry Cooper's left hook before he fought Liston.

Sunmanken
I think my point was understated. My bad.

What I mean is...Clay was already 19-0 with 15 knocouts, before facing his biggest challenge at that time.

David Haye is going into his biggest challenge with a knockout already on his record, so there is a clear-cut blueprint example of him being disposable, even by a noname...much less the current HW Champ. There is where the difference is.

Clay literally climbed his way to the top of the next contender in line list. Haye did not. There are drastic differences indicating why the two instances do not compare.
FightHypeRules
QUOTE (Extant @ Jul 1 2011, 09:46 AM) *
My apologies to you Sir or Ma'am as it appears that my use of "No Homo" has offended you in some way. I garner no hatred for homosexuals in any way, shape, or form. And since my post isn't an Official Journal or Article, I didn't see the problem with writing an opinionated post while obeying "hood rules" at the same time.

Therefore, there's no need for you to be "Sorry".

rolleyes_anim.gif
Extant
QUOTE (Sunmanken @ Jul 1 2011, 10:56 AM) *
David Haye is going into his biggest challenge with a knockout already on his record, so there is a clear-cut blueprint example of him being disposable, even by a noname...much less the current HW Champ. There is where the difference is.


Not really... As I stated before, even though Clay didn't get KO'd, he got rocked by Cooper and another no-name himself before the Liston bout. Nobody gave Clay a chance in that fight much like it appears you not giving Haye much of a chance either.

QUOTE (Sunmanken @ Jul 1 2011, 10:56 AM) *
Clay literally climbed his way to the top of the next contender in line list. Haye did not. There are drastic differences indicating why the two instances do not compare.


You have a point here. We shall see tomorrow.
Extant
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jun 30 2011, 02:32 PM) *
Clay was in the mix but he's a top 10 HW and Liston was the champ, the trash talking just made it so Ali didn't have to earn the title shot by beating out guys in the top 10. he created such a demand for the fight that Liston just couldn't pass it up and went into it a big underdog.

this is no Clay vs Liston.


Didn't Wlad tell Haye that he "talked" himself in to this fight much like you say "the trash talking just made it so Ali didn't have to earn the title shot..."?

If that doesn't REEK of Clay/Liston, then I don't know what does.
Extant
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Jun 30 2011, 12:36 PM) *
Well honestly Cassius Clay at the time of the first Liston fight might not have been the star and legend that he is now but the man was widely known in America. He was an olymipic gold medalist in a time when americans took that serious. He was more hated back then than anything, but he wasn't some obscure loudmouth guy trying to upset the champion. He was known.


You and I know that he wasn't some obscure loudmouth now, but the world that he "Shook Up" back then didn't know it even with the Olympics. Futhermore, Clay wasn't hated at all until he became Muhammad Ali.

QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Jun 30 2011, 12:36 PM) *
Also here's a question, let's say haye does upset Wlad and then goes on to beat his brother, then he does retire like he has been saying. How is that going to be good for the heavyweight division. It would put it in a even shitter spot IMO. As bad as people think the Klitschkos are for the heavyweight division, I think Haye would be even worse especially if he upset both brothers and then just retires.


I tried my best to avoid that as you make one HELL of a point there! That would be VERY "shitty" as you put it. But a great part of me hopes this is just a put on.
FightHypeRules
I hear so many people saying that a Haye win is what's good for the sport. I understand why they would say that, but I don't think it makes sense. If that makes sense. lol.

Let's say that Haye wins. He supposedly brings a fresh face and a more camera friendly persona. Okay, then what? Is the competition supposed to be better? Are all the other fighters supposed to suddenly become better?

I think that without realizing it, people who think Haye is going to be the savior of the division by beating Wlad and then possibly Vitali, they are giving Haye a huge backhanded compliment.

They seem to be thinking that the division won't be ruled by these robots and then suddenly everything will be competitive again.

But doesn't that constitute Haye being a weaker champion than the Klitschkos? They are super dominant and no one can touch them. Haye, by beating them, will then be able to give people competitive fights.

But how does that make Haye a better champion than the Klitschkos? It's almost like they'd rather have someone not as good, rather than have a dominant champion.

EVen if he doesn't retire the way he says he will, I think the division will stay the same until more fighters come up that are dedicated to the sport and are not just there for a paycheck.

Hell, maybe Kimbo's our boxing salvation. lol
True-Boxing-Fan
QUOTE (Extant @ Jul 1 2011, 05:18 PM) *
You and I know that he wasn't some obscure loudmouth now, but the world that he "Shook Up" back then didn't know it even with the Olympics. Futhermore, Clay wasn't hated at all until he became Muhammad Ali.

Well back when Ali was Cassius Clay, boxing was a MAJOR sport in a America. It was huge back then. Everyone followed boxing. You are right Clay wasn't as hated as when he became Ali when he went through his whole draft dodging situation which made him really hated. But Cassius Clay wasnt some American sweetheart either. His brash bravado and smacking talking style turned a lot of Americans off. Also Back then Clay was known in America since he was a Olympic gold medalist. He wasn't a super star but being a gold medalist back then meant something. Americans took notice and would expect big things as a pro. He shook up the world because Liston was a animal who had an invinceable Tyson like persona. So no one expected him to win. But he wasnt some obscure loudmouth going into the Liston fight.
Extant
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Jul 1 2011, 05:40 PM) *
Well back when Ali was Cassius Clay, boxing was a MAJOR sport in a America. It was huge back then. Everyone followed boxing. You are right Clay wasn't as hated as when he became Ali when he went through his whole draft dodging situation which made him really hated. But Cassius Clay wasnt some American sweetheart either. His brash bravado and smacking talking style turned a lot of Americans off. Also Back then Clay was known in America since he was a Olympic gold medalist. He wasn't a super star but being a gold medalist back then meant something. Americans took notice and would expect big things as a pro. He shook up the world because Liston was a animal who had an invinceable Tyson like persona. So no one expected him to win. But he wasnt some obscure loudmouth going into the Liston fight.


Although most people didn't think Clay had a chance, he actually was an "American sweetheart" before becoming Ali... Or else he wouldn't have been on the 'Tonight Show', "Jerry Lewis show" and countless others, if only for his personality, if he wasn't. That means it actually turned America ON as they TUNED IN. That fight would not be as big if not for the "Louisville Lip" much like Haye/Wlad wouldn't be much of a fight without Haye's mouth and good looks (No Homo [FightHypeRules PLEASE don't kill me. I'm only obeying "hood rules" as I've told you before]).
Extant
QUOTE (FightHypeRules @ Jul 1 2011, 05:33 PM) *
I hear so many people saying that a Haye win is what's good for the sport. I understand why they would say that, but I don't think it makes sense. If that makes sense. lol.

Let's say that Haye wins. He supposedly brings a fresh face and a more camera friendly persona. Okay, then what? Is the competition supposed to be better? Are all the other fighters supposed to suddenly become better?

I think that without realizing it, people who think Haye is going to be the savior of the division by beating Wlad and then possibly Vitali, they are giving Haye a huge backhanded compliment.

They seem to be thinking that the division won't be ruled by these robots and then suddenly everything will be competitive again.

But doesn't that constitute Haye being a weaker champion than the Klitschkos? They are super dominant and no one can touch them. Haye, by beating them, will then be able to give people competitive fights.

But how does that make Haye a better champion than the Klitschkos? It's almost like they'd rather have someone not as good, rather than have a dominant champion.


You also make my point for me. I Haye beats them both, then they are no longer "untouchable" as Haye will have "touched" them both. And it will make for a more entertaining division as there will be another talented, in shape HW champ in the mix with a PERSONALITY.


QUOTE (FightHypeRules @ Jul 1 2011, 05:33 PM) *
Hell, maybe Kimbo's our boxing salvation. lol


MMA tried that already and even used Shaq as a promotional tool, and we see what happened,... didn't we? Or did you forget?
Method
Problem is, I dont think you can, in any way whatsoever, compare Wlad and Liston.

The Klitchko's are FAR from "super dominant" or "untouchable". Wladdy has had his clock cleaned by lackluster comp. And all his wins are in a bullshit division laden w lackluster comp.
FightHypeRules
QUOTE (Extant @ Jul 1 2011, 07:12 PM) *
You also make my point for me. I Haye beats them both, then they are no longer "untouchable" as Haye will have "touched" them both. And it will make for a more entertaining division as there will be another talented, in shape HW champ in the mix with a PERSONALITY.




MMA tried that already and even used Shaq as a promotional tool, and we see what happened,... didn't we? Or did you forget?


1. But my point is that the division will not be any different. The only difference is that Haye will have the titles. If he retires, then Wlad or Vitali will simply beat whoever in an eliminator to get the titles, and things will go back to the way they were.

If Haye pulls a Bernard Hopkins and continues to fight, and let's say he beats the Klitschkos in a rematch, what has changed, aside from the leader of the division?

The rest of the division are the SAME sorry sonsabitches that have been there before Haye won.

It's not like with the Klitschkos out of the way suddenly everyone in the division becomes that much better. If nobody gave a shit about the HW division outside of boxing fans, then what changes?

The only thing that could POSSIBLY happen that would make things different, is that now Haye would be someone who could compete with the rest of the division, rather than dominate them like the Klitschko brothers did.

And in that case, the division is actually WORSE than it was before.

2. The comment was a joke, but boxing is different than MMA. He had no business going the MMA route, because his big thing was a punch. He basically gives that advantage up when he goes into a sport that allows people to take him down.

I think he should have gone straight into boxing. Probably wouldn't have been more than a journeyman/fringe contender, but it would have been better than being a sideshow.
FightHypeRules
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 1 2011, 07:24 PM) *
Problem is, I dont think you can, in any way whatsoever, compare Wlad and Liston.

The Klitchko's are FAR from "super dominant" or "untouchable". Wladdy has had his clock cleaned by lackluster comp. And all his wins are in a bullshit division laden w lackluster comp.


In the past, yes he's been touched, but since then he's untouchable. Nobody has come close to beating either brother since Wlad got dumped like...9 fights ago, or Vitali came back from retirement.

So in that sense, yes they are super dominant and untouchable. True the division is lackluster, but that doesn't make them any less dominant over their competition.
Extant
QUOTE (FightHypeRules @ Jul 1 2011, 07:30 PM) *
In the past, yes he's been touched, but since then he's untouchable. Nobody has come close to beating either brother since Wlad got dumped like...9 fights ago, or Vitali came back from retirement.

So in that sense, yes they are super dominant and untouchable. True the division is lackluster, but that doesn't make them any less dominant over their competition.


Co-sign!!!
Extant
QUOTE (FightHypeRules @ Jul 1 2011, 07:28 PM) *
1. But my point is that the division will not be any different. The only difference is that Haye will have the titles. If he retires, then Wlad or Vitali will simply beat whoever in an eliminator to get the titles, and things will go back to the way they were.

If Haye pulls a Bernard Hopkins and continues to fight, and let's say he beats the Klitschkos in a rematch, what has changed, aside from the leader of the division?

The rest of the division are the SAME sorry sonsabitches that have been there before Haye won.

It's not like with the Klitschkos out of the way suddenly everyone in the division becomes that much better. If nobody gave a shit about the HW division outside of boxing fans, then what changes?

The only thing that could POSSIBLY happen that would make things different, is that now Haye would be someone who could compete with the rest of the division, rather than dominate them like the Klitschko brothers did.
And in that case, the division is actually WORSE than it was before.

2. The comment was a joke, but boxing is different than MMA. He had no business going the MMA route, because his big thing was a punch. He basically gives that advantage up when he goes into a sport that allows people to take him down.

I think he should have gone straight into boxing. Probably wouldn't have been more than a journeyman/fringe contender, but it would have been better than being a sideshow.



You're correct at EVERY 'bold' point. However we'll at least have someone who will entertain us at the HW division.

This is NOT about the perceived 'dominance'. However, it is about marketability in the event that Haye wins against both bros if he doesn't retire.
Extant
So much for that one. Oh well. LOL
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