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Full Version: Will JMM try to make 144?
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leonthegee
If I was JMM I would come in at around 138 or so. Hes not stopping Manny anyway. His best bet is to try and outbox him. You saw what happened when JMM came in at 142. He looked fat, slow, and bloated.
King Eugene
It wouldn't matter if it was 144 or 134, he's getting whipped regardless.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Jun 30 2011, 10:48 PM) *
It wouldn't matter if it was 144 or 134, he's getting whipped regardless.


...or drinking his own piss, or eating his own...
King Eugene
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Jun 30 2011, 11:00 PM) *
...or drinking his own piss, or eating his own...

The only way he wins this fight is by the grace of God.
PColeman28
He won't make the weight....this fight won't be as close as the other two, he'll lose big
Hops
Both needs to walk at the same weight during fight night for this one to be competitive. Pacquiao will come in light or else he'd look as sluggish as when he fought Marquez in their rematch. Marquez needs to gain some weight but not too much. Any large deviations and he's gonna get starched.
leonthegee
Am I the only 1 who thinks Manny hasnt looked sharp lately? I dont see the speed or creativety in his attack. 30% connect percentage agaist Mosley, who was dead in the ring, is not impressive. In fact I havent been impressed with Manny since the Cotto fight. I give Manny the edge but hes looking very beatable as of late.
AussieLad
144 is the upper weight limit, but its being considered a welterweight fight right? So JMM has to come in over 140 doesnt he? I suppose if JMM wants to weigh in at 138, rather than 140, he just needs to drink a couple of litres of water and cross his legs on the scales
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Jul 1 2011, 06:16 AM) *
Am I the only 1 who thinks Manny hasnt looked sharp lately? I dont see the speed or creativety in his attack. 30% connect percentage agaist Mosley, who was dead in the ring, is not impressive. In fact I havent been impressed with Manny since the Cotto fight. I give Manny the edge but hes looking very beatable as of late.


I agree he didn't look so sharp against Mosley and I have often wondered if he left more of himself in the ring against Margarito than he would care to acknowledge. that fight was more brutal for Manny than many think.
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jul 1 2011, 07:09 AM) *
I agree he didn't look so sharp against Mosley and I have often wondered if he left more of himself in the ring against Margarito than he would care to acknowledge. that fight was more brutal for Manny than many think.


i think Mosley ran and it messed with Pac plain and simple. the fighter didn't stand toe to toe with him, didn't come in with straight lines and worked with the jab. it's harder to look good against that than someone like Cotto coming straight in and giving up every angle or Margarito that really just comes in to get hit. the problem for Mosley was there was no boxing and only running lol.
gravytrain
i think people just take away from Mayweather's performance by saying Marquez is terrible above 135. it's not his fighting weight but he also stepped up to fight one of the best fighters in the sport 2 divisions up, it's not an easy thing to do. i think he just looked bad because Mayweather was just a bad fight for him.

this fight will be better for him but i don't expect much. Pac had close fights with him years ago and Pac has improved while Marquez has faded.
Snoop
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jul 1 2011, 11:24 AM) *
144 is the upper weight limit, but its being considered a welterweight fight right? So JMM has to come in over 140 doesnt he? I suppose if JMM wants to weigh in at 138, rather than 140, he just needs to drink a couple of litres of water and cross his legs on the scales

JMM should be allowed to weigh in at 138 if he wishes. After all, his opponent weighed in at welterweight for a light middleweight title fight.
mrwigi
All i know is Manny has become accustomed to making 147lbs. Juan on the other hand had one fight at 147 and has been fighting 135 since then. I think him coming in any heavier than that just blunts his already mediocre speed and pac picks him apart. Usually, I'm the 1st person to say styles make fights. And Juan sure has Manny's number. But I just dont think Juan with the extra weight will be able to do anything to upset the pac man.
leonthegee
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jul 1 2011, 03:24 AM) *
144 is the upper weight limit, but its being considered a welterweight fight right? So JMM has to come in over 140 doesnt he? I suppose if JMM wants to weigh in at 138, rather than 140, he just needs to drink a couple of litres of water and cross his legs on the scales

Not sure if thats true. Remember Manny weighed in at 144 for a jr middldweight bout.
PColeman28
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Jul 1 2011, 03:16 AM) *
Am I the only 1 who thinks Manny hasnt looked sharp lately? I dont see the speed or creativety in his attack. 30% connect percentage agaist Mosley, who was dead in the ring, is not impressive. In fact I havent been impressed with Manny since the Cotto fight. I give Manny the edge but hes looking very beatable as of late.


Pac will look better in this fight because marquez isn't scared to get in there and bang with him compared to what mosley did....i agree he hasn't looked as sharp but this guy is what mayor, a music artist, and pro boxer, and married...eventually somethings got to give, but he'll win this fight....
MrChampagne123
QUOTE (PColeman28 @ Jul 1 2011, 09:49 PM) *
Pac will look better in this fight because marquez isn't scared to get in there and bang with him compared to what mosley did....i agree he hasn't looked as sharp but this guy is what mayor, a music artist, and pro boxer, and married...eventually somethings got to give, but he'll win this fight....

Who Cares if he is a mayer, a music, artist, and a pro boxer that doesnt mean shyt!He couldnt hit a fighter that wasnt fighting back. Point blank Mosley was backing up and mocving Left all fight so Pacman couldnt land that right he likes to throw at will. Either way he wins this fight.if it goes the distance it will be close but I thing Pacman knocks him out. He will not have a bteert outing then floyd did though BET.
AussieLad
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 1 2011, 11:32 AM) *
i think people just take away from Mayweather's performance by saying Marquez is terrible above 135. it's not his fighting weight but he also stepped up to fight one of the best fighters in the sport 2 divisions up, it's not an easy thing to do. i think he just looked bad because Mayweather was just a bad fight for him.

this fight will be better for him but i don't expect much. Pac had close fights with him years ago and Pac has improved while Marquez has faded.


The issue is that people will shit on Pac for fighting Marquez, but trumpet floyds win over marquez to the heavens... and that is despite the fact that pac is closer to JMM in physical stature than PBF. PBF was facing an opponent smaller than himself, pac will be facing someone his own size. Yet somehow floyds win will be better, and pacs win will be shit in comparison.

I agree that pac has looked better than JMM at this weight, but this version of JMM won't be significantly different to the version that pbf fought at welter. And at least pac will make the contracted weight
gravytrain
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jul 2 2011, 06:19 AM) *
The issue is that people will shit on Pac for fighting Marquez, but trumpet floyds win over marquez to the heavens... and that is despite the fact that pac is closer to JMM in physical stature than PBF. PBF was facing an opponent smaller than himself, pac will be facing someone his own size. Yet somehow floyds win will be better, and pacs win will be shit in comparison.

I agree that pac has looked better than JMM at this weight, but this version of JMM won't be significantly different to the version that pbf fought at welter. And at least pac will make the contracted weight


the funny thing is that some people call this Mayweather's leftovers when Pac got Marquez way before Mayweather probably even thought about fighting him. this is a trilogy.

i think Pac wins better than Mayweather and people use it to say Pac must be on something or Pac was ducking him and made him come up to fight him.
HazConvictedFelonMane
Well we all seem to know the outcome of the fight already. I don't believe that JMM is coming to get beat up, and collect a paycheck. I believe he's coming to fight. I believe he's coming to win. Do I believe he will win? No. Do I think anything's possible? Of course. I don't want Manny to lose to anyone besided Floyd Mayweather. That doesn't mean It's ok to fight guys that have no solid shot at winning. It's so much hypocrite shit going on. Pacquiao, Roach, and Arum go out of their way to compare Manny and Floyd. They go extra hard trying to say that they are nothing like him. They're saying he's ducking, he's afraid, he's this, and he used weight against Marquez. Marquez has been chasing Manny Pacquiao since 2008, now that they saw what they needed to see, they've found a way to limit the difficulty. If it was wrong for Floyd to do it, don't praise Manny for doing the same thing. It's a shame how the so-called P4P king has to use weight to his advantage. If it's not draining them, it will be bloating them. Freddie Roach's quote; 'we'll fight Marquez. At 147'. Need I say more?
dhoward126
Marquez weighed in at 142 to fight PBF when PBF was out of the ring for two years and he got beaten up something fierce. What else can he do better now that he's older, slower and getting decked by much lesser fighters? We'll have to see how he looks on the 16th against Ramos, that fight is at 140. Let's just face it though, Marquez is going to look like shit against Pacquiao because WE ALREADY KNOW HE CANNOT PERFORM AT WELTERWEIGHT! I would love for somebody to try to convince me otherwise.
dhoward126
Marquez weighed in at 142 to fight PBF when PBF was out of the ring for two years and he got beaten up something fierce. What else can he do better now that he's older, slower and getting decked by much lesser fighters? We'll have to see how he looks on the 16th against Ramos, that fight is at 140. Let's just face it though, Marquez is going to look like shit against Pacquiao because WE ALREADY KNOW HE CANNOT PERFORM AT WELTERWEIGHT! I would love for somebody to try to convince me otherwise.
AussieLad
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 2 2011, 02:25 PM) *
I think before Marquez and Pacquiao were the same size, and Mayweather bigger than both of them. Just like Mayweather looked a bit smaller when he first moved up to welter weight. Mayweather grew into the division over the years and so has Pacquiao. Mayweather and Pacquiao are not 140 fighters, and not 154 fighters. They are both solid and comfortable welter weights at this stage. Marquez and Pacquiao are no longer the same size for the 3rd fight IMO, just like Mayweather and Marquez were not the same size.
They are both welter weights fighting a blown up light weight.


Lets look at some of the top ranked welters stats as pulled off boxrec's list

Victor Ortiz 5ft 9, 70
Mosely 5ft 8 and half, 71 inch reach
Berto 5ft 8 and a half
Mike Jones, 6ft 72 inch reach
Mayweather 5 ft 8, 72 inch reach
Alfonso Gomez 5ft 9, 69 inch reach

Then we have:

Manny Pac 5ft 5 half and 67 inch reach
Marquez 5ft 7, 67 inch reach

On average pacs 3 and half inches shorter than the guys above, and his reach is 4 inches shorter than the above. That is significant for this weight class. He has blown up a little bit in size (bulk) over the years, but also is not cutting as much water weight. He is not an overly thickly set Welter.

Yes he is comfortable at welter because he has retained his speed and power as he moved up, not because he has physically matured into a true welter. He is still a small guy excelling against bigger men.

Ask yourself this. Who fairs better, pac or floyd, from a purely physical standpoint if they decided to fight at 160? Floyd would be a small middleweight... pac would be a midget at middle...

Hops
Okay then. Visually, Mayweather looked bigger than Mosley. Pacquiao didn't look bigger than Mosley.
caneman
QUOTE (Hops @ Jul 3 2011, 05:19 PM) *
Okay then. Visually, Mayweather looked bigger than Mosley. Pacquiao didn't look bigger than Mosley.



Of course Mosley looked bigger but IDK how much bigger Floyd was than Mosley but fought bigger, that much is for sure...he fought long and tall in that fight!
gravytrain
Pac's stature and weight are hyped a lot to try to make it sound like David vs Goliath in his fights. i think they still try to make it sound like this cat can't even make 144 pounds when he's coming in that heavy back at 135, now he's coming in the ring at 148 and maybe even higher.

ChadSaysTakeTheTest
QUOTE (HazConvictedFelonMane @ Jul 2 2011, 10:07 AM) *
Well we all seem to know the outcome of the fight already. I don't believe that JMM is coming to get beat up, and collect a paycheck. I believe he's coming to fight. I believe he's coming to win. Do I believe he will win? No. Do I think anything's possible? Of course. I don't want Manny to lose to anyone besided Floyd Mayweather. That doesn't mean It's ok to fight guys that have no solid shot at winning. It's so much hypocrite shit going on. Pacquiao, Roach, and Arum go out of their way to compare Manny and Floyd. They go extra hard trying to say that they are nothing like him. They're saying he's ducking, he's afraid, he's this, and he used weight against Marquez. Marquez has been chasing Manny Pacquiao since 2008, now that they saw what they needed to see, they've found a way to limit the difficulty. If it was wrong for Floyd to do it, don't praise Manny for doing the same thing. It's a shame how the so-called P4P king has to use weight to his advantage. If it's not draining them, it will be bloating them. Freddie Roach's quote; 'we'll fight Marquez. At 147'. Need I say more?

Well said. A lot of pactards are just in denial. I don't see how someone.can defend Arum, a self admitted and.proven liar and proven to fix fights, for so long.
AussieLad
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 3 2011, 10:05 PM) *
I'm not looking at it as a pure number percentage.

They are just numbers. Hey, look at this.

Mike Tyson: 5′ 10″ and 71" reach
Diego Corrales: 5′ 10″and 70" reach

Are Tyson and Corrales comparable using your same logic? No.

Yes number wise, Pacquiao is small compared to them, but he has filled out nicely, and no matter which was you slice it, Pacquiao IS a 147 fighter and Marquez is NOT a 147 fighter. That was my main point, just like I said the same for Mayweather-Marquez. But yeah, I suppose if you look at it as numbers, Pacquiao and Marquez are the same just like Tyson and Corrales are.


Yes, but tyson was also acknowledged as a small heavyweight who could compete because of his speed and power.
AussieLad
Oh but i can slice it any number of ways. Explain your argument better

My point is that not only is pac smaller in terms of dimensions (height and reach), he is also not overly thick set. Take David Tua for instance. The guy, in terms of dimensions, is a tiny heavyweight by todays standards. But just because he is short doesnt mean he has a hope in hell of making light heavy. He is from a genetically solid race. A very heavy set people.

Conversely you can have guys like Stipe Drews, who's 6ft 5 and only competed at light heavy. Height and reach is not a fool proof determining factor for which division you are suited too. But, when you lump those physical dimensions in with Somatotypes like Ectomorph, Endomorph, Mesomorphs... then you get a much better picture. In these examples, Tua would be a endomorph/mesomorph, Drews a Ectomorph.

Pac looks like a middle of the road mesomorph to me. Until he weighs in at 147 and then gains 15 pounds after the weigh in like most true welters, he's not going to be a true welter. He will just be a smaller man carrying alot of water weight, competing well in higher weight divisions because of skill, speed and power. He could easily sweat down to 140 or even 135 at a stretch. At the moment he is making it in the welter division dripping wet.

Your argument seems to consist of "he can compete at welter, so he is a true welter". Sorry, you can choose to ignore dimensions and body types if you want, but your argument appears to be an over simplification.
AussieLad
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 2 2011, 03:25 PM) *
I think before Marquez and Pacquiao were the same size, and Mayweather bigger than both of them. Just like Mayweather looked a bit smaller when he first moved up to welter weight. Mayweather grew into the division over the years and so has Pacquiao.


Bullshit Fitz. Your argument was never simply pac belongs at welter, and marquez doesnt. You were arguing that pacs body has adapted to 147, hence your reference to floyd looking small when he first moved to welter then growing into it.

gravytrain
Pac is a small welterweight on the weight side but size wise he isn't that much smaller than Cotto. to be honest i don't even know how much Pac really weighs, i'm guessing a minimum of 148. i wouldn't be surprised if he weighs 150-152 on fight night.

the biggest thing with Marquez moving up is he's not a WW and doesn't try to be. people have their division and his isn't 147. the only difference between this fight and his fight with Mayweather is Mayweather's style and size gave him a lot of problems, he'll be more active in this but it wont be pretty. i think he'll get knocked down a few times and lose by a clear UD.
AussieLad
Without a doubt, JMM does not perform at his best at welter. I attribute this mainly to the fact that he doesnt have pac's speed. When you combine that with his much shorter reach than 99% of the top welters, he is in trouble. When your a counterpuncher thats much slower and of shorter reach than your opponent, timing will only get you so far. Its a significant disadvantage, and the fight with floyd is the perfect example of what could happen

Obviously not everyone with JMM physical dimensions is going to have problems. If you have a granite chin and dynamite in your fists, you can probably bull your way inside and be competitive. Or in pacs case, your lightning fast and throw alot of punches from different angles. But neither of those represent JMM's style. He's a highly skilled boxer, but with his counterpunching style, he is just too small for this division.

However, when facing pac, he will not be at that same level of disadvantage. In fact he is taller thna pac, and equal of reach. Obviously alot slower, but at least in terms of height and reach he has a much better chance of timing pac with counters than he did vs mayweather. Which was the whole point of my earlier argument. Against Floyd, JMM had no chance. Simply too small and too slow. Against pac the scales arent so lop sided. If pac dominates JMM, it will be a better win than floyds win over JMM, simply because they are the same size. JMM should never have been in the ring with floyd, regardless of floyds lay off.

All that being said, i would have preferred pac to fight JMM at 140 or not at all. JMM will cop a beating. In fact, i recall saying the same thing when the PBF vs JMM bout was first announced. At the time the PBF nut huggers were justifying the match by saying floyd was a small welter. Well if he was a small welter fighting a dude coming up from a short stint at 135, surely it wouldnt be that much of a stretch the fight take place at 140. I would be a hypocrite if i didnt hold pac to the same standard. Pacs a small welter, fight JMM at 140 or not at all.
gravytrain
lol I only remember people talking about "he's P4P number 2", "he'd close fights with Pac" and "it's setting up for a Pac fight" when Mayweather fought him.

i think it'll be a more entertaining fight but no WW should be calling up someone from 135.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jul 4 2011, 11:31 PM) *
Oh but i can slice it any number of ways. Explain your argument better

My point is that not only is pac smaller in terms of dimensions (height and reach), he is also not overly thick set. Take David Tua for instance. The guy, in terms of dimensions, is a tiny heavyweight by todays standards. But just because he is short doesnt mean he has a hope in hell of making light heavy. He is from a genetically solid race. A very heavy set people.

Conversely you can have guys like Stipe Drews, who's 6ft 5 and only competed at light heavy. Height and reach is not a fool proof determining factor for which division you are suited too. But, when you lump those physical dimensions in with Somatotypes like Ectomorph, Endomorph, Mesomorphs... then you get a much better picture. In these examples, Tua would be a endomorph/mesomorph, Drews a Ectomorph.

Pac looks like a middle of the road mesomorph to me. Until he weighs in at 147 and then gains 15 pounds after the weigh in like most true welters, he's not going to be a true welter. He will just be a smaller man carrying alot of water weight, competing well in higher weight divisions because of skill, speed and power. He could easily sweat down to 140 or even 135 at a stretch. At the moment he is making it in the welter division dripping wet.

Your argument seems to consist of "he can compete at welter, so he is a true welter". Sorry, you can choose to ignore dimensions and body types if you want, but your argument appears to be an over simplification.

Its not water weight. Look at Pacquiao. He does not look bloated. He is solid muscle close to 1 percent body fat. Fighters cut weight. Weight cutting and diet is a very big part of weight limit sports such as boxing, wrestling, and mma. It sounds to me like you don't know anything about cutting weight.
Hops
The only difference is that Pacquiao needed to take a lot of protein shakes. He also eats a lot. He eats his favorite foods. Even doing these he can only manage to weigh in 2 pounds short of the welterweight limit.

That's why Pacquiao likes to fight in higher divisions. He can eat like a Toney-Vargas and train well. He moves back down to 140 and he'll gonna have to cut on these comforts.

Now, of course, JMM can do the same. But if his body cannot adapt, then why would Pacquiao appease him?
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