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Full Version: Is Wladimir now top 15 all time?
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SENTRAL
Having lost my sig bet to Ollie Reed and also taken the personal knock of having my numero uno prospect David Lemieux take a licking just a short while back I'm feeling a bit humble right now. 

I wanted to ask you guys whether or not you'd place Wladimir amongst the top 15 heavyweight champions of all time?  Maybe if the general consensus is favorable towards him, this humble pie won't quite taste so bitter.  Definitely not judging him from last night alone but the way he kept Haye at range, the same way he keeps everyone at range these days leads me to think he would give al but the very highest echelons of heavyweight greats a very torrid night.

Although stylistically he is dull to watch, he uses his physical advantages so well he must surely be a legitimate candidate for a top 15 ranking.

What says you?  
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Would you like to feel a bit better? Looks a bit chilly in that last shot. Haha.

Y'know I would just about have to put him into the top 15 champions. maybe at 15. The problem is there were an awful lot of good HW's that never even won a strap. Tua and Ibeabuchi are 2 that spring to mind plus all those murderous guys around the 70's Shavers etc.

I'd put straight away Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis ahead of him. Naturally Ali and Holmes. Louis of course as I would put Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston so that's about 10 off the top of my head, opps! Frazier, Foreman and places are getting tight. On second thoughts I dunno.

Maybe David Haye is just that bad laugh.gif

SENTRAL
Most people put Liston in a top 10-15 of their all time lists but I would argue Wladimir has surpassed anything and everything Sonny did in his career and deserves a higher ranking all time.  He's so ugly to watch but so effective and controlling the pace of his fights and the range of his opponents.  It surely has to be credit to Wladimir how every opponent seems to suffer the same bewildering fate when confronted with his deceptively quick jab. 

All good intentions, great training camps and genuine belief, vanish when the fight starts and it happens time and time again.  Opponents just do not seem capable of coping with the way Wladimir fights.  I think they all go into the fight certain they will be the man to end his reign because he doesn't intimidate them, despite his size.  He's not of the Liston/Foreman/Tyson ilk when it comes to beating a man before the fight even starts.  His composure and stay out of harms way tactics are what makes him so difficult to beat but also make him so boring to watch.

His fanbase might have scattering around the world and be large in Germany but he simply isn't a popular champion and this could be partly why he will never receive the credit he deserves.  I'm guilty of it myself.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Jul 3 2011, 05:17 AM) *
Most people put Liston in a top 10-15 of their all time lists but I would argue Wladimir has surpassed anything and everything Sonny did in his career and deserves a higher ranking all time.  He's so ugly to watch but so effective and controlling the pace of his fights and the range of his opponents.  It surely has to be credit to Wladimir how every opponent seems to suffer the same bewildering fate when confronted with his deceptively quick jab. 

All good intentions, great training camps and genuine belief, vanish when the fight starts and it happens time and time again.  Opponents just do not seem capable of coping with the way Wladimir fights.  I think they all go into the fight certain they will be the man to end his reign because he doesn't intimidate them, despite his size.  He's not of the Liston/Foreman/Tyson ilk when it comes to beating a man before the fight even starts.  His composure and stay out of harms way tactics are what makes him so difficult to beat but also make him so boring to watch.

His fanbase might have scattering around the world and be large in Germany but he simply isn't a popular champion and this could be partly why he will never receive the credit he deserves.  I'm guilty of it myself.


The part about Liston could be true but so much of his career was stymied by the mob who kept the title away from him and then once they had granted it equally deprived him of defending it. Liston is the kind of guy who I do think could've got to Wlad mentally. Just those cold dark eyes and menace. A great jab of his own and the power to make Wlad go back. From the little we saw today Wlad is no great shakes fighting backwards.
mgrover
its hard because wlad fought everyone he was supposed to. i mean its not his fault the heavyweight division is bollocks at the moment. his brother is the only good challenge left but if they both try to jab each other the other brother will win. but on the other hand david haye isnt a big name on wlads resume. i think hes going to be fighting some up and comers soon since theres not much that either wants to fit him or he'll just flatten them.

also on the haye point i think haye lost by thinking he would always win no matter what. what an idiot should of had a better game plan than a one punch KO.

nice sig...
lloyd mayflower
I feel a bit sorry for Wlad if that lastnight was the biggest challenge outt here for him. He might aswell fight Vitali or retire.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Jul 3 2011, 05:40 AM) *
I feel a bit sorry for Wlad if that lastnight was the biggest challenge outt here for him. He might aswell fight Vitali or retire.



Lloyd I ask you this. If you one day went up to a bank dispensing machine and it was just spitting cash at you, and it's yours to keep, only catch is once you walk away you can't go back to the machine, would you stand there collecting cash for as long as you could?

Also Lloyd have you ever had the opportunity to show Hayden Panettiere a 'good time?' I don't think you need to be feeling too much sympathy for him.
salvador
Beating a total FRAUD like Haye does nothing for Klit. Wlad as long since proven that he's one of the top 10 most competitive hw of all time. If you want to argue that he isn't a "real warrior" so he isn't "great", that's debatable. But BOTH Klits would have been serious competition for any hw of any era.
blackbelt2003
Seeing as I don't generally rank the pre 1940's in all time lists, then yes, I would say he is.


1/ Muhammad ALI
2/ Joe LOUIS
3/ Evander HOLYFIELD
4/ Larry HOLMES
5/ Lennox LEWIS
6/ George FOREMAN
7/ Joe FRAZIER
8/ Mike TYSON
9/ Rocky MARCIANO
10/ Ezzard CHARLES
11/ Wladimir KLITSCHKO
12/ Sonny LISTON
13/ Floyd PATTERSON
14/ Riddick BOWE
15/ Vitali KLITSCHKO




Black
bosco
He's not an all time top 15...He just beat a guy thats 4 inches shorter and 212 lbs that talked his self into the fight. Like someone posted earlier theres no real athletes in the HW division cause they're playing other sports...the best guys Wlad beat was

Chris Byrd
Ruslan Chagaev
Sam Peter...who dropped him 3 times in the 1st fight
David Haye
Eddie Chambers
Lamon Brewster
Ray mercer....who was 41 years old when they fought
Hasim Rahman
Jameel McCline
Sultan Ibragimov

Wladimir was ko'd by a 37 year old Corrie Sanders who was a golfer and boxed part time at that time in 2 rounds
Wladimir was ko'd by Ross Purity who was 24-13 at the time
Wladimir was ko'd by Lamon Brewster

The real HW all time greats brought it...You couldn't jab your way to a win against them and Wlad would've folded easily against them...Vitali Klitschko is a different story...he would be a tough outing in any era
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (bosco @ Jul 3 2011, 09:40 AM) *
The real HW all time greats brought it...You couldn't jab your way to a win against them and Wlad would've folded easily against them...Vitali Klitschko is a different story...he would be a tough outing in any era



I don't think that Wlad would've folded easy against them.


Since 2004, he's had seven years of systematically dismantling opponents. His style isn't just about jab, jab.

He has a lovely left hook. A booming right hand. He has great speed. He's a very, VERY patient fighter (which is hard to do), his footwork is brilliant - the way he cuts off the ring and pulls away from attacks, although not orthadox, is very effective. he listens well. Overall, he's a great package.


Overall, him and his brother Vitali, are great athletes.

The tall movers and jabbers, like Holmes, Ali and Lewis would present problems for the Klit bro's, but the smaller, lighter heavies would've had trouble against them...not saying the Klits would've beaten them, but as they use their athleticism so well and their physical attributes, they'd be more than a handful for the majority.
caneman
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 3 2011, 08:25 AM) *
Seeing as I don't generally rank the pre 1940's in all time lists, then yes, I would say he is.


1/ Muhammad ALI
2/ Joe LOUIS
3/ Evander HOLYFIELD
4/ Larry HOLMES
5/ Lennox LEWIS
6/ George FOREMAN
7/ Joe FRAZIER
8/ Mike TYSON
9/ Rocky MARCIANO
10/ Ezzard CHARLES
11/ Wladimir KLITSCHKO
12/ Sonny LISTON
13/ Floyd PATTERSON
14/ Riddick BOWE
15/ Vitali KLITSCHKO




Black



Not a bad list since you don't rank them pre 40's but is that REALLY TOP 15 ALL TIME? The truth is many guys would have had trouble with the Klit brother's and
Lewis based on size alone and being so rangy! I do think guys who weren't scared and really brought it and that were willing to go out on their shield could have beaten all 3 guys!

QUOTE (bosco @ Jul 3 2011, 08:40 AM) *
He's not an all time top 15...He just beat a guy thats 4 inches shorter and 212 lbs that talked his self into the fight. Like someone posted earlier theres no real athletes in the HW division cause they're playing other sports...the best guys Wlad beat was

Chris Byrd
Ruslan Chagaev
Sam Peter...who dropped him 3 times in the 1st fight
David Haye
Eddie Chambers
Lamon Brewster
Ray mercer....who was 41 years old when they fought
Hasim Rahman
Jameel McCline
Sultan Ibragimov

Wladimir was ko'd by a 37 year old Corrie Sanders who was a golfer and boxed part time at that time in 2 rounds
Wladimir was ko'd by Ross Purity who was 24-13 at the time
Wladimir was ko'd by Lamon Brewster

The real HW all time greats brought it...You couldn't jab your way to a win against them and Wlad would've folded easily against them...Vitali Klitschko is a different story...he would be a tough outing in any era



While I agree with some of what you are saying including not being top 15, anyone can get caught and if you don't have your chin tucked and someone hits you hard on it...even average punches can get you outta there. I still agree with post for the most part!
SENTRAL
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jul 3 2011, 09:01 AM) *
I don't think that Wlad would've folded easy against them.


Since 2004, he's had seven years of systematically dismantling opponents. His style isn't just about jab, jab.

He has a lovely left hook. A booming right hand. He has great speed. He's a very, VERY patient fighter (which is hard to do), his footwork is brilliant - the way he cuts off the ring and pulls away from attacks, although not orthadox, is very effective. he listens well. Overall, he's a great package.


Overall, him and his brother Vitali, are great athletes.

The tall movers and jabbers, like Holmes, Ali and Lewis would present problems for the Klit bro's, but the smaller, lighter heavies would've had trouble against them.


This is how I am seeing things. The run since 2004, although not consisting of great names on his record, is as good if not better than many ATG heavyweights. An unbeaten Mike Tyson beat an equally poor group of heavyweights imo. Joe Louis too had many no good fighters on his championship record.
BigG
I'd rate WLAD around 11-15. I think right now is his prime and he is better than Vitali (slightly). Ali, Louis, Holmes, Maricano, Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Liston over Klitschko
Hops
I could imagine Wlad getting knocked out by a two-fisted fictional version of David Haye. That's the problem with fighters who rely only on one hand. After throwing their bread and butter hand, they have no idea how to follow it up.
Maxy
Can't be arsed to do a list but off the top of my head I'd say yeah, he's gotta be somewhere down the bottom end of a top 15 list.
bosco
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jul 3 2011, 10:01 AM) *
I don't think that Wlad would've folded easy against them.


Since 2004, he's had seven years of systematically dismantling opponents. His style isn't just about jab, jab.

He has a lovely left hook. A booming right hand. He has great speed. He's a very, VERY patient fighter (which is hard to do), his footwork is brilliant - the way he cuts off the ring and pulls away from attacks, although not orthadox, is very effective. he listens well. Overall, he's a great package.


Overall, him and his brother Vitali, are great athletes.

The tall movers and jabbers, like Holmes, Ali and Lewis would present problems for the Klit bro's, but the smaller, lighter heavies would've had trouble against them...not saying the Klits would've beaten them, but as they use their athleticism so well and their physical attributes, they'd be more than a handful for the majority.

People please learn boxing....The all time great HW came to get you...Even Ali and Holmes...they moved around a lot but when it was time they sat down on their punches to get you out of there. Wladimir has a nice run going but he's fighting guys who just stand around on the outside. When Wlad lost he wasn't really hit on the chin much...he folded. Ross Purity didn't really catch Wlads chin...He just walked through Wlads punches and stayed in his face and kept him going backwards till he folded...same with Brewster..he walked through Wlads punches and kept coming till he folded and Corrie Sanders hurt Wlad but Wlad folded..he started flopping on the ground once Sanders started bringing that heat...Wlad was close to folding against Sam Peter...Wlad was getting knocked down due to fear more than Peters punches in that fight...Peter really wasn't catching him clean and if it wasn't for Steward pulling Wlad together he would've lost that fight. The heavy weights of today don't have an aggressive style..they try to sit around and pick their shots and Wlad is to big for that to work on but the All time greats use to take it to give it and Wlad can't handle that..he cant fight going backwards so oh yeah he would have folded. I would even go as far as GUARANTEE that prime Gerry Cooney would have knocked Wladimir out.
Hops
The smaller two-fisted all time heavies would have a field day on Wlad's chin.
Method
Top 15 All Time?

For his physical dimensions, he's POUND 4 POUND one of the biggest PUSSIES I have EVER seen strap on a pair of boxing gloves. For him to mega-flinch every time David Haye feinted him, he should be embarrassed. He fights scared. He's a puss.

To put him in the top 15 - Who has he beaten? Seriously. Who on his resume propels him to be considered among the all time greats? Its not his fault that the division has been devoid of any talent during his career, but it has, and it just doesnt afford him the possibility of being considered an ATG cuz there's no talent in his division to refer to. What's more, all his losses came against palookas.
caneman
Just a question here, is the HW that could beat the clit sisters playing football or basketball?
gravytrain
some people might call me a hater but i would take Joe Louis over Wlad but losing to Vitali. Louis fought 2 fighters the size of Wlad in Buddy Baer and Primo Carnera, the fight with Carnera actually looks like he's fighting Wlad. obviously Wlad has some tools Carnera didn't but Louis could take the jab out of the fight and stay away from the power shots while landing his power shots.
neophyte7
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 3 2011, 11:40 AM) *
Top 15 All Time?

For his physical dimensions, he's POUND 4 POUND one of the biggest PUSSIES I have EVER seen strap on a pair of boxing gloves. For him to mega-flinch every time David Haye feinted him, he should be embarrassed. He fights scared. He's a puss.

To put him in the top 15 - Who has he beaten? Seriously. Who on his resume propels him to be considered among the all time greats? Its not his fault that the division has been devoid of any talent during his career, but it has, and it just doesnt afford him the possibility of being considered an ATG cuz there's no talent in his division to refer to. What's more, all his losses came against palookas.



THAT'S ABOUT AS REAL AS IT GETS... Top 15 all time hell no--- Watching Wladimir fight is like watching people swim laps!!!

sad thing is that he will be in the boxing hall of fame... he happened to be too big for the time, yet even with his size after Cory Sanders came off of the 18th hole to KO him he has fought like a scared little bitch.. I mean this guy produces the most boring boxing matches I have ever seen!!!
TzFrank
Top 15 all-time???? HELL NO!!! Ali would've killed him with his speed and his ability to dance around the ring would"ve tired Wladamir out.....foreman even though he was shorter he had the reach and definitely the strength to beat Wladimir...even though Tyson is at an disadvantage as far as size was too fast and strong for Wladimir and his head movement would've thrown him off so he wouldnt be able to jab his way to a win...Lennox in his prime would've killed him because can match him in physical stature, you see what happened to vitali when they fought! Lennox was losing on the scorecards but people forget lennox was well past his prime and he was still able cut him up...I could go all day but to make a long story short he is definitely in the top 15....top 25 maybe.....but not 15!!!!
HaydelHammer
Fuck Wlad..he wouldn't beat Jimmy Young or Ronald Lyle for christ sakes.

PColeman28
QUOTE (TzFrank @ Jul 3 2011, 09:13 AM) *
Top 15 all-time???? HELL NO!!! Ali would've killed him with his speed and his ability to dance around the ring would"ve tired Wladamir out.....foreman even though he was shorter he had the reach and definitely the strength to beat Wladimir...even though Tyson is at an disadvantage as far as size was too fast and strong for Wladimir and his head movement would've thrown him off so he wouldnt be able to jab his way to a win...Lennox in his prime would've killed him because can match him in physical stature, you see what happened to vitali when they fought! Lennox was losing on the scorecards but people forget lennox was well past his prime and he was still able cut him up...I could go all day but to make a long story short he is definitely in the top 15....top 25 maybe.....but not 15!!!!


You can say he's top 15 based off his record and KO percentage, but as far as performance goes he's not in the top 15.. to be 6'7 and have a 40 pound and 4 inches advantage on bascially every opponent his KO % should be that high so that's a given.. but i noticed when haye would take a chance, get pass the jab and throw small flurries of punches it made Wlad very uncomfortable and he would clinch....Haye never kept it going... he would do it maybe once every other round and sometimes landed some flush punches...point being if Wlad fought more agressive fast powerful fighters like Tyson or foreman he would get destroyed.... so if you look at that record and KO % yea he's top 15, but if you look at the talent of his opponents and his performance in general then no.... look at tyson he dominated for awhile and he's only 5'10 and the youngest heavy weight champion in the history of boxing winning it at 20 years old, i just don't think Wlad belongs in the top 15 with guys like tyson, frazier, ali, foreman, marciano, lewis, etc
TzFrank
QUOTE (PColeman28 @ Jul 3 2011, 02:01 PM) *
You can say he's top 15 based off his record and KO percentage, but as far as performance goes he's not in the top 15.. to be 6'7 and have a 40 pound and 4 inches advantage on bascially every opponent his KO % should be that high so that's a given.. but i noticed when haye would take a chance, get pass the jab and throw small flurries of punches it made Wlad very uncomfortable and he would clinch....Haye never kept it going... he would do it maybe once every other round and sometimes landed some flush punches...point being if Wlad fought more agressive fast powerful fighters like Tyson or foreman he would get destroyed.... so if you look at that record and KO % yea he's top 15, but if you look at the talent of his opponents and his performance in general then no.... look at tyson he dominated for awhile and he's only 5'10 and the youngest heavy weight champion in the history of boxing winning it at 20 years old, i just don't think Wlad belongs in the top 15 with guys like tyson, frazier, ali, foreman, marciano, lewis, etc

My bad fellas i meant to say "hes definitely not in the top 15" i just relized the typo
Hops
David Haye deserves a rematch but for the right price - peanuts.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 3 2011, 09:25 AM) *
Seeing as I don't generally rank the pre 1940's in all time lists, then yes, I would say he is.


1/ Muhammad ALI
2/ Joe LOUIS
3/ Evander HOLYFIELD
4/ Larry HOLMES
5/ Lennox LEWIS
6/ George FOREMAN
7/ Joe FRAZIER
8/ Mike TYSON
9/ Rocky MARCIANO
10/ Ezzard CHARLES
11/ Wladimir KLITSCHKO
12/ Sonny LISTON
13/ Floyd PATTERSON
14/ Riddick BOWE
15/ Vitali KLITSCHKO




Black


Good list. I would move Ezzard Charles and Joe Frazier out of the top 10 though and replace them with the Klits. I think Vitaly is the better fighter of the two, but Wladimir has better skills. Charles fought in a divsion that wasnearly as weak as the 80's or now. Frazier racked up a bunch of wins largely because Ali had been out of the sport. Had Ali been fighting over that 3 years, Frazier would just be another one of those guys that Ali fought that we dont remember. Frazier would be an unknown. If we were to go to a hypothetical matchup list, then I think the KLITS are top 5. If they fought most of these guys 10 times each, I think they would win more than 50% of the matches head to head. I think that Bowe, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield and Ali would give them their toughest fights. I think prime Lewis beats them both in their prime.
gravytrain
Frazier fought everyone and beat Ali one time, almost 2. that's better than anything Vitali or Wlad has done. i agree on Charles though, what he did more in the lower divisions than he did at HW. i can't use 160 and 175 for ranking him as a HW.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 3 2011, 07:16 PM) *
Frazier fought everyone and beat Ali one time, almost 2. that's better than anything Vitali or Wlad has done. i agree on Charles though, what he did more in the lower divisions than he did at HW. i can't use 160 and 175 for ranking him as a HW.



Yes, he fought everyone save for Norton. He lost to Ali twice and to Foreman twice. IF Ali had not taken 3 years off, then I think Frazier never beats Ali and he's just an opponent. Of course thats not the way history has it and he is the 1st guy to beat Ali. That said, I dont think Frazier is top 10 material.
bosco
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jul 3 2011, 06:52 PM) *
Good list. I would move Ezzard Charles and Joe Frazier out of the top 10 though and replace them with the Klits. I think Vitaly is the better fighter of the two, but Wladimir has better skills. Charles fought in a divsion that wasnearly as weak as the 80's or now. Frazier racked up a bunch of wins largely because Ali had been out of the sport. Had Ali been fighting over that 3 years, Frazier would just be another one of those guys that Ali fought that we dont remember. Frazier would be an unknown. If we were to go to a hypothetical matchup list, then I think the KLITS are top 5. If they fought most of these guys 10 times each, I think they would win more than 50% of the matches head to head. I think that Bowe, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield and Ali would give them their toughest fights. I think prime Lewis beats them both in their prime.

What are you smoking...I can see if you said Vitali can beat a lot of guys on the list but Wlad definitely can't...The guys on the HW all time list won't sit on the outside and let Wlad jab them to death...They would pressure Wlad and beat on him till he folds..Wlad can't fight going backwards at all. Did you watch ali vs Frazier...them boys fought hard for fifteen rounds...it wasn't no jab jab lean back...they didn't let you get away with that weak stuff..Wlad is not built from that cloth and everytime things got rough he folded.
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jul 3 2011, 07:23 PM) *
Yes, he fought everyone save for Norton. He lost to Ali twice and to Foreman twice. IF Ali had not taken 3 years off, then I think Frazier never beats Ali and he's just an opponent. Of course thats not the way history has it and he is the 1st guy to beat Ali. That said, I dont think Frazier is top 10 material.



Ali on your resume is a hell of a lot better than any win Wlad or Vitali have ever had. to move him out of the top 10 when considering his quality of opposition and wins doesn't make any sense since neither of the Klits have rivaled him. between both of them the best they've faced is Lennox Lewis and Lewis beat Vitali.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (PColeman28 @ Jul 4 2011, 05:01 AM) *
look at tyson he dominated for awhile and he's only 5'10 and the youngest heavy weight champion in the history of boxing winning it at 20 years old


That has nothing to do with all time ranking at all.
PColeman28
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 3 2011, 06:36 PM) *
That has nothing to do with all time ranking at all.



The point i was trying to make was that everyone in the all time great list did something that set them apart from everyone else in the sport/weight class....for tyson that's something that makes him an all time great boxer(it was just an example)... Wlad hasn't done anything special or beat anyone special to say he belongs in the top 15 all time greats
Snoop
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 3 2011, 04:40 PM) *
Top 15 All Time?

For his physical dimensions, he's POUND 4 POUND one of the biggest PUSSIES I have EVER seen strap on a pair of boxing gloves. For him to mega-flinch every time David Haye feinted him, he should be embarrassed. He fights scared. He's a puss.

To put him in the top 15 - Who has he beaten? Seriously. Who on his resume propels him to be considered among the all time greats? Its not his fault that the division has been devoid of any talent during his career, but it has, and it just doesnt afford him the possibility of being considered an ATG cuz there's no talent in his division to refer to. What's more, all his losses came against palookas.

Not to mention that he hasn't avenged all his losses either.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Snoop @ Jul 4 2011, 06:22 AM) *
Not to mention that he hasn't avenged all his losses either.


i don't know off the top of my head but from what i remember all his avenged losses have came after Vitali knocked them senseless for 12 rounds.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 4 2011, 07:22 AM) *
i don't know off the top of my head but from what i remember all his avenged losses have came after Vitali knocked them senseless for 12 rounds.


No.

Wlad never avenged his first loss.(scrubs name eludes me at the moment)

Wlad never fought Corrie Sanders again after getting destroyed by him. Vitali did beat Sanders after that by stoppage.

Wlad did eventually rematch Brewster years later after Brewster KO'd him. Vitali never fought Brewster.


ALSO...I 100% agree with METHOD.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (bosco @ Jul 3 2011, 07:25 PM) *
What are you smoking...I can see if you said Vitali can beat a lot of guys on the list but Wlad definitely can't...The guys on the HW all time list won't sit on the outside and let Wlad jab them to death...They would pressure Wlad and beat on him till he folds..Wlad can't fight going backwards at all. Did you watch ali vs Frazier...them boys fought hard for fifteen rounds...it wasn't no jab jab lean back...they didn't let you get away with that weak stuff..Wlad is not built from that cloth and everytime things got rough he folded.


Yeah, but Ali isnt 6'6" and 245lbs either. No way a 5'11" 205lb Frazier gets to Wlad. Wlad has 7inch height advantage and a 40lb weight advantage. If Haye couldnt get to him, then I seriously doubt Frazier would have. And I dont want to hear the shit about "You're not comparing David haye to Joe Frazier!!" People are just enamored with Frazier probably because he boxed before many of you were born. He would get stopped by both Klits and probably Haye too. The ONLY thing Frazier is noted for is that he's the first guy to beat Ali. Yes, he beat the up and comers of his day. He didnt beat any of the other legends of the era.
The Original MrFactor
Hypothetically, if the Klits died in 2002, who'd be the top dog today at HW? Would that person or those people be as dominant as the Klits are today?
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 3 2011, 10:40 AM) *
To put him in the top 15 - Who has he beaten? Seriously. Who on his resume propels him to be considered among the all time greats? Its not his fault that the division has been devoid of any talent during his career, but it has, and it just doesnt afford him the possibility of being considered an ATG cuz there's no talent in his division to refer to. What's more, all his losses came against palookas.


100% agree. I've always said it is not the Klits fault that the division is so weak....BUT...it is their problem. For sure when you come to questions like this one.

I CANNOT in good conscience actually attempt to rate the guys knowing the level of shit they have beaten to garner even asking the question. This is not simply a somewhat talent lite division.....this HW division that the Klits have dominated is from what I can see the lowest, worst pool of HW in recorded history!

I mean really...the division is so bad that Holyfield can STILL be competitive in it while closing in on 50!!!!

That is a level of low that I myself have NEVER known of. Somebody mentioned Tyson's opposition in the 80's being subpar.

Biggs, Ferguson, Berbick, Spinks, Tucker, Smith, Green, Thomas, etc....may not be a list of the best HWs ever....but they all had BOATLOADS of talent compared to today's lot of HWs.

In a way...I do really feel for the Klits, but it is hard to really rank them when they have not seen the likes of the depths of the 50-90's HWs.

Again...it's important to remember it is NOT at all their fault.

But you cannot just rank thise guys at ATG or top 10-15....when the division they have fought in is considered the single worst ever.

I have a hard time believing that if you dropped both bros. off in 1974 or in 1992....that they would be THIS dominant? SURE...due to their sheer physical size, there is no doubt they win some...but at the same time...they lose some too.

They have never had a single opponent with the heart of Holyfield, the power of Shavers, Tyson or Foreman, the ability of Ali.

AND...both of Vitali's losses come to 2 fighters from that 90's generation. Wlad losing to the likes of who he has speaks volumes about how he would fair.

I think many younger people pose these questions because they did not live through those other divisions...and it's hard for them to imagine a division as deep as us older folks speak about. Sure you can watch old videos and whatnot...but it's not the same as having witnessed it first hand.

The Klits are nice guys, very skilled capable fighters, extremely huge guys. However due to their opposition I will never be able to rate then accordingly and fairly. And that is a shame. But...that's just the way it is.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Jul 3 2011, 09:10 AM) *
The run since 2004, although not consisting of great names on his record, is as good if not better than many ATG heavyweights. An unbeaten Mike Tyson beat an equally poor group of heavyweights imo.

Yeah but Tyson obliterated his guys during that run. One highlight reel after another. Style points do matter.

Somebody mentioned in this or another thread they thought Tim Witherspoon would have knocked out Wlad had they fought in their primes. I AGREE COMPLETELY, and Witherspoon was a B-B+ heavyweight, hardly top 15 material. Anybody with heart, a chin, and a good punch would have toppled the gentle giant Wlad. Vitali I agree is a tougher dude and would have fared a bit better, but still. The only top guy he ever faced was Lennox Lewis when Lennox had both feet out the door and his face still couldn't stay in one piece long enough to get the gettable win.

I like the Klits. They seem like nice guys. It's not their fault that their era sucks. I still don't think either one is a great heavyweight.

Saturday night was about David Haye being a fraud and a con artist, not about Wlad being better than given credit for.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 3 2011, 11:40 AM) *
Top 15 All Time?

For his physical dimensions, he's POUND 4 POUND one of the biggest PUSSIES I have EVER seen strap on a pair of boxing gloves. For him to mega-flinch every time David Haye feinted him, he should be embarrassed. He fights scared. He's a puss.

To put him in the top 15 - Who has he beaten? Seriously. Who on his resume propels him to be considered among the all time greats? Its not his fault that the division has been devoid of any talent during his career, but it has, and it just doesnt afford him the possibility of being considered an ATG cuz there's no talent in his division to refer to. What's more, all his losses came against palookas.


Just wanted to say great post!

BoxingWizard23
Vitali is better than Wlad end of story. I do think both are legit but Wlad is top 25 or 30 all time, Vitali is top 15 I take it.
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