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salvador
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 14 2011, 08:48 PM) *
but you have to remember their was a 3 and a half year stint mike didnt fight... the mike that went to jail was still good enough to beat those versions of bowe and lewis...


Tyson was a massive favorite in the first Holyfield fight. Now everyone says he was in decline, but the decline wasn't evident until he faced his first serious challenge in Holyfield. I believe that a huge part of Tyson's decline was his psychology and the fact that after Holyfield he didn't believe in himself in the same way.

The bottom line is that Tyson never beat a prime A level fighter - ever. And Tyson weighed 215 in his prime, which is just too small for the Klits or Lewis until proven otherwise.
TheFonz
Question who has had the better comp?

Tyson in the 80's.

or

Wlad now


I don't know why anybody would think that Wlad is a more legit Champ than Tyson was in the 80's. Truth be told, I would favor a focused Buster Douglas over Wlad anyday.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 15 2011, 11:48 AM) *
the mike that went to jail was still good enough to beat those versions of bowe and lewis... lewis wasnt that much bigger than mike at that time....


Agreed but the pre prison Tyson should only be considered in a fantasy matchup against either of the two & I give both Bowe & Lewis in their respective primes a better than 50/50 chance to beat Tyson. Not saying Tyson is shit or anything just that I happen to think they had the tools to beat Mike prime for prime.


QUOTE (BoxingWizard23 @ Jul 15 2011, 06:25 PM) *
The reason Tyson never faced those other big time HW's was because they ducked him!! ever wonder why he was the most feared man in the planet at one time?? It's been in many articles that opponents were scared to fight him. Show me 1 article or claim of where Lewis, Bowe,Moore and etc. in the 80's were trying to fight Mike when he became the youngest heavyweight champ in history. Where? I'll be waiting...............forever..


By god you are a fucking idiot. Bowe & Lewis were fucking amaeurs & Moorer was a fucking light heavyweight so of course they weren't going to fucking fight Tyson in the fucking 80's. Of course you will be fucking waiting for fucking ever for thie fucking evidence because it does not fucking exist just like your wizadry does not fucking exist.

Look in the mirror & say slowly so you fucking understand "I am a fucking moron" repeat that until it enters your fucking thick skull.

I have to say your stupidity on this subject really fucking gives me the irrits matey.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 15 2011, 09:43 PM) *
This is silly. Fighters like Spinks and Bruno and all the other b level guys were terrified of mike - guys like Holyfield, Lewis, and Bowe WEREN'T because they were A level fighters and A level guys don't lose fights in the stare down.

And NOBODY was saying Tyson was a different fighter after prison until he got exposed by Holyfield - the first A level fighter of his career. People were very afraid for Holyfield's health going into that match. A huge part of why Tyson wasn't as dominant a fighter after prison because he lost his confidence - he didn't KNOW he was going to go into a fight and destroy the guy, which is what he learned fighting Holyfield.

Wlad's jab was great before Steward. He used it both as a pawing mechanism to blind fighters and set up right hands and he also used it as a weapon. Sanders caught him with a huge straight left hand early because Sanders was aggressive, lucky, and willing to stick his chin out to land that one punch. Wlad never chose to trade with anyone in his career because he never had to. Stalking and dominating guys with a huge jab and a huge right hand isn't the same thing as brawling.

In any event, the fact that Tyson ducked the prime fighters of his day is deeply unfortunate for boxing historians and these kinds of debates. Your argument would be a lot stronger if Tyson hadn't waited until the end of his career to fight Lewis, but for some reason he did wait. And it's a simple matter of fact that the two times Tyson fought A level guys he got ko'd.



I think you are beinga little harsh on Tyson. Spinks was the true linear champion & was most definately a A level fighter. Bruno & the others he fought were B level but they were the best crop going around at the time.

What prime fighters did Tyson duck in his day (pre prison)?

I don't think he "ducked" anyone it is just Don King wanted his goose to keep laying golden eggs. It is true that the best fighters Tyson faced beat him & beat him badly.

The Tyson vs Lewis fight was a combination of timing & the fact that they were contracted to different networks. That is why I think so lowly of Pac & PBF because if you van get Showtime & HBO to co promote/telecast a fight then anything can happen.
salvador
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 15 2011, 08:25 AM) *
I think you are beinga little harsh on Tyson. Spinks was the true linear champion & was most definately a A level fighter. Bruno & the others he fought were B level but they were the best crop going around at the time.

What prime fighters did Tyson duck in his day (pre prison)?

I don't think he "ducked" anyone it is just Don King wanted his goose to keep laying golden eggs. It is true that the best fighters Tyson faced beat him & beat him badly.

The Tyson vs Lewis fight was a combination of timing & the fact that they were contracted to different networks. That is why I think so lowly of Pac & PBF because if you van get Showtime & HBO to co promote/telecast a fight then anything can happen.


I love Tyson because he was the most exciting fighter of my lifetime, but I've just never bought the idea that prison somehow ruined him. I think Holyfield had as much to do with Tyson's downfall as prison, partying, and everything else. When his mantle of invincibility was shattered, he became a different fighter. And, IMO, if he'd fought Holyfield before prison he would have lost because Holyfield was a complete fighter who didn't back away from him.

Tyson had the opportunity to fight Bowe and Lewis in the mid 1990s and those would have been great measuring sticks for how he would have fared against Klit. And I feel entirely certain that HBO and Showtime could have come together much sooner for Tyson Lewis if Tyson (who had the power because he was the draw) had wanted it to happen. In retrospect, King was brilliant for feeding Tyson nobodies for $20MM a fight just like Arum is now with Pac, keeping him from Floyd.

Method
Yo Big G. Tried to pm you but your inbox is full. Someone gripped your X vid and posted it as their own...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYzeoxk2mEQ&feature=fvst
Method
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 14 2011, 04:24 PM) *
prime undefeated Tyson vs. prime undefeated Wlad

Wlad all day.

People who think Wlad would be scared should just look at Tyson's behavior before the Lewis fight - Tyson was terrified because he knew he couldn't get past that long heavy jab and because he'd never been in with anyone who could punch like Lewis.


Lewis and Wlad are two completely different stories.

Lennox's story is more Lion King and Wlad is more Broke Back Mountain.

Lennox was big and fought big. Confidence. Wlad is is big...a BIG pussy! He would flinch and cringe and stutter. Wlad fights like a big giant pussy.

I agree Id take Vitali over Tyson, but Tyson just eats Wlad alive. 90% mental. 10% physical. He'd have Wlad so mentally exhausted when he finally winds up to deliver the death blow, and Wlad cringes up in a ball on one leg, Mike relaxes, walks up, and blows on young Klit and the giant topples over for a 10 count.

D-MARV
If Lamon Brewster can stop Wladimir a prime Tyson would murder him.
Method
QUOTE (TheFonz @ Jul 15 2011, 08:28 AM) *
Truth be told, I would favor a focused Buster Douglas over Wlad anyday.

The Buster Doug that beat Tyson beats Wlad ALL FUCKING DAY.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 15 2011, 07:16 PM) *
The Buster Doug that beat Tyson beats Wlad ALL FUCKING DAY.

Oh hell yeah... The man's Mom had just died, He didn't give a fuck about anything. He let out all his emotion that night... Wlad would have been quick work!
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jul 15 2011, 01:25 AM) *
I'd agree and I'll go one step further and give you guys a kinda conspiracy theory that I've alywas had about that whole rape situation.

Tyson was already dangerously spiralling out of control when the rape case came up. King had Holloway and whatever the other guy was as Tyson's managers and they were most definately feeding him the info on how badly Mike was veering off course.

When the rape case came up King got lawyer who was basically a specialist tax attorney, Vince Fuller I think his name was, to represent Mike. Remember Tyson could've afforded anyone in the world and on the advice of King they went for this schlub. Here is where I think King may have got a little tricky. Naturally I'm pretty sure that he didn't plant Desiree Washington but once the situation arose and always the opportunist he played it pretty well.

It was in King's best interests for Mike to lose that case. If he had the inside juice on how much Mike had slipped then he may have had an inkling that he could well lose the Holyfield fight. This way he gets to take him off the shelf, takes control of Mike's finances and even better when he comes out of prison Mike is an even bigger PPV attraction than he was before.

Of course Mike needs to fight on because King pretty much got all the money and now King has the bonus of getting Mike mega bucks against C class opponents because he has to allow him to lose the ring rust, which of course the public accpets and tunes in in their millions.

All in all this helps enlongate Mike's career before the inevitable happens against Holyfield. But by this stage King has squeezed millions more out of him which he probably wouldn't have got had Tyson not gone to prison and faced and got beaten by Holyfield.


i think Tyson was just going to lose the case period. DK just took full advantage of it. DK had a lot of influence over him anyway so i think it's just a matter of time before he got his way and had Tyson taking easy fights. being in need of coming and coming out of the joint would just be extra incentive lol.

QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 15 2011, 03:43 AM) *
i agree he would have kept fading as a fighter but it would have happened at a lot lesser pace.... he would never be the same when he came back from his prison stint... he was a good fighter when he came back had he been tested and brought back right but not the same fighter as he was even after the ruddock wins... even that tyson was still good enough to rule the division and that wasa shell of a fighter even then...


i think the funny thing is you can actually watch his fights and witness the changes. some people get crazy with it and try to worship Tyson but i think he legitimately wasn't the same after Rooney got fired and he got back from prison and wouldn't try to use it as a prime Tyson. i can't think of any other fighters where you can see a decline coinciding with their personal life.

QUOTE (Method @ Jul 15 2011, 06:48 PM) *
Lewis and Wlad are two completely different stories.

Lennox's story is more Lion King and Wlad is more Broke Back Mountain.

Lennox was big and fought big. Confidence. Wlad is is big...a BIG pussy! He would flinch and cringe and stutter. Wlad fights like a big giant pussy.

I agree Id take Vitali over Tyson, but Tyson just eats Wlad alive. 90% mental. 10% physical. He'd have Wlad so mentally exhausted when he finally winds up to deliver the death blow, and Wlad cringes up in a ball on one leg, Mike relaxes, walks up, and blows on young Klit and the giant topples over for a 10 count.


that's why i give Tyson the edge, Wlad doesn't have the confidence in himself. Tyson would be too quick and too explosive and Wlad would just be out of his element. he just doesn't impose himself physically and doesn't fight or act like a big man. now if dude had the heart of his brother it would be a different story.
Method
I mean, could you imagine Wlad trying to get cute at the "Face Off" and just silently trying to stare Tyson down? Platforms like "Face Off" were PERFECT for Tyson's menacing psych game.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 15 2011, 10:53 PM) *
Man, I always like to imagine and wish we could transport young Tyson into today. Like you said, he would be in his element on a segment like "face off", I would love to watch him on something like 24/7 or 360, and with the improvement in how promoters market fighters. Tyson would be huger today then he was back then, which says something, because that guy was huge just as it was.
He would be outselling guys like DLH, Mayweather and Pacquiao with ease IMO. Would love to see him marketed today.


Agreed. Modern sports entertainment was made for a guy like Tyson. I can see him routinely doing 3 million PPV's easy and against B-level palooka's. He would be a billionaire, particularly the pre-jail version where he had a lot of public goodwill.

It actually boggles my mind to think how off the charts a young Tyson would be today. He could probably reform Public Enemy to do his ring walk with him laugh.gif
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 15 2011, 11:15 PM) *
I'm just imaging the different ways Tyson would call Wlad a "giant, big white faggot", lol.

He would sell so BIG, it's not funny, haha. Even Tyson fighting Toney as a tune up, that would be a riot, haha.

Now that I would love to see, prefight, fight, and post fight. Goodness gracious that would have been amazing.

Hell to be honest I cant call how that fight would play out. Prime Tyson vs. the Toney that fought Holyfield.

Press conferences, 24/7. and Face Off. Whew!
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jul 15 2011, 10:56 PM) *
Agreed. Modern sports entertainment was made for a guy like Tyson. I can see him routinely doing 3 million PPV's easy and against B-level palooka's. He would be a billionaire, particularly the pre-jail version where he had a lot of public goodwill.

It actually boggles my mind to think how off the charts a young Tyson would be today. He could probably reform Public Enemy to do his ring walk with him laugh.gif


Coming out to "Welcome to the Terrordome". thumbsup_anim.gif
gravytrain
Tyson would have the sport on a different level today. this cat could easily make 70 million a fight including PPV. that would actually be a low number in my opinion, with all the social networking and media there's the build up would be crazy. Tyson getting out of prison would probably make 100 mil per fight, America loves a comeback.

with endorsements and everything this cat would have so much money women would be raping him, he wouldn't even be raping women. dude would run through more paternity tests than the Maury show.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 15 2011, 11:35 PM) *
He also probably would have fucked the brakes off someone like Kim Kardashian or accused of rape, or possibly had some sort of domestic violence. $$$$$

I know people say that a lot of the young guys decide to play football or basketball now, as it's safer and better money involved. But RIGHT now, there is HUGE money to be made in the heavyweight division. Maybe a while ago, not so much, but right now, it can be a gold mine for one lucky person to take that chance.


i don't think that really has anything to do with it. if you're a big dude in America your high school basketball coach or football coach is going to talk to you, there's no boxing coach. the chances of getting some kid in the gym at a young age, sticking with boxing and ending up being 6'7" and 250 pounds is pretty fucking slim. i think athletes that don't make it to the NFL or NBA should give boxing a try but there are other leagues to play in and boxing isn't something that takes time.

this is 2011, Fitz. Tyson would fuck some wannabe celebrity bitch and make a sex tape and she would make her career off of it. that or he would settle out of court on rape. get with the times
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 15 2011, 10:42 PM) *
i don't think that really has anything to do with it. if you're a big dude in America your high school basketball coach or football coach is going to talk to you, there's no boxing coach. the chances of getting some kid in the gym at a young age, sticking with boxing and ending up being 6'7" and 250 pounds is pretty fucking slim. i think athletes that don't make it to the NFL or NBA should give boxing a try but there are other leagues to play in and boxing isn't something that takes time.

this is 2011, Fitz. Tyson would fuck some wannabe celebrity bitch and make a sex tape and she would make her career off of it. that or he would settle out of court on rape. get with the times


I understand what you are saying Gravy. We actually had this same discussion about a year and a half back on the boards, not usre if you were around then. However I'm convinced that at some time a kid is gonna come through the HW division in America, it's simply too big a country for it not to happen, and that particular kid will be punching a golden ticket that is so fucken big it will make what Tiger Woods earns look like chump change.

To this day I remain convinced, and particularly with modern entertainment and the internet, that nothing lends itself to TV drama like a great HW knockin seven shades of shit out of people. If Tyson was around today he would be the biggest sports star in the world. Period. And despite it being a weak division. It wouldn't matter. That guy is ratings gold.

I wonder has the amount of money around in college sports been partially to blame for the demise of young boxing talent in America?
Warlord
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Jul 15 2011, 11:20 PM) *
Now that I would love to see, prefight, fight, and post fight. Goodness gracious that would have been amazing.

Hell to be honest I cant call how that fight would play out. Prime Tyson vs. the Toney that fought Holyfield.

Press conferences, 24/7. and Face Off. Whew!

Best fantasy match-up I've seen suggested in about a million years. The trash talking alone would've been worth the price of admission.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 16 2011, 12:53 PM) *
He would be outselling guys like DLH, Mayweather and Pacquiao with ease IMO. Would love to see him marketed today.


All 3 combined & then some I would think.
King Eugene
This is random but I didn't want to make a new thread about it and plus I seen the topic brought up in here. I linked up with an old childhood friend. He's still back in the same neighborhood selling dope, dropped out of HS, and basically didn't do shit with his life. Told him I was boxing and he should come to the gym with me. He was totally against it saying he wouldn't step foot in a boxing ring then later in the conversation proceeds to say how he had plans of whipping some dudes ass the next time he saw them. So I said, "you'd rather fight in the streets and risk death instead of coming to a gym and actually learning how to fight." He was like yep.

Long story short it was more of a pride thing. He couldn't live with being outmanned in a boxing ring and walking away knowing somebody got the better of him. His ego was too big to take an honest ass whippin and tell another man he was just better that day. I think thats the problem with some of these "big" athletes we have in America. Too much pride and dont want to risk embarrassement so they'd rather play another physical sport with less of a risk. Clearly I could be wrong because hell I played college football myself and now I box but thats just my guess.
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jul 16 2011, 12:19 AM) *
I understand what you are saying Gravy. We actually had this same discussion about a year and a half back on the boards, not usre if you were around then. However I'm convinced that at some time a kid is gonna come through the HW division in America, it's simply too big a country for it not to happen, and that particular kid will be punching a golden ticket that is so fucken big it will make what Tiger Woods earns look like chump change.

To this day I remain convinced, and particularly with modern entertainment and the internet, that nothing lends itself to TV drama like a great HW knockin seven shades of shit out of people. If Tyson was around today he would be the biggest sports star in the world. Period. And despite it being a weak division. It wouldn't matter. That guy is ratings gold.

I wonder has the amount of money around in college sports been partially to blame for the demise of young boxing talent in America?


i don't think anyone cares as long as there's a knockout. i remember how excited people were for Tyson fights back in the day and i was pretty young when he got out of prison. i think what he did as someone that's a shell of his former self and looking for paydays speaks for itself, people just want entertainment.

i agree about someone having the potential to do it, i just see a lot of people that could have been a HW turn to football or basketball over boxing just because those were the sports they loved. i think a big part of being a pro athlete is love of the game and if it's not there you're not going to commit yourself to it when you're young. if the World Series Boxing thing takes off i could see a resurgence in boxing though, there's too much money in it. if kids in the ghetto hear about some dude making good money to fight in it and he's not much older than them there will definitely be some desire to take up the sport lol.

i don't think the NCAA killed boxing, football is just more popular. a lot more people are getting on the football field at a young age then the boxing gym. i think there's never really been any effort to get guys that didn't make it to the pros into boxing either. Deontay Wilder is a cat that played some college basketball and went all the way to the Olympics with someone like 20 amateur fights, sounds pretty good to me lol.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 16 2011, 12:51 AM) *
I can see your point, but seriously, it's a gold mine in the heavyweight division. This person doesn't even have to be 6'7 or 250. Just a talented athlete that decides to put there energy in heavy weight boxing than some other sport.

You're right about it being 2011. What would Tyson do to something like Rihanna. Make Chris Brown look like a straight up little bitch, haha.


i think it's just more of a popularity shift than anything. once the Klits are gone i do think we'll see a resurgence though. i think the big problem is that even if someone real athletic did want to get into boxing it would probably be in his 20s. i think it's hard to tell a grown man to work a job and go to the boxing gym so they can turn pro later on down the line, that and they probably don't know how many opportunities there are in boxing.



QUOTE (King Eugene @ Jul 16 2011, 01:27 AM) *
This is random but I didn't want to make a new thread about it and plus I seen the topic brought up in here. I linked up with an old childhood friend. He's still back in the same neighborhood selling dope, dropped out of HS, and basically didn't do shit with his life. Told him I was boxing and he should come to the gym with me. He was totally against it saying he wouldn't step foot in a boxing ring then later in the conversation proceeds to say how he had plans of whipping some dudes ass the next time he saw them. So I said, "you'd rather fight in the streets and risk death instead of coming to a gym and actually learning how to fight." He was like yep.

Long story short it was more of a pride thing. He couldn't live with being outmanned in a boxing ring and walking away knowing somebody got the better of him. His ego was too big to take an honest ass whippin and tell another man he was just better that day. I think thats the problem with some of these "big" athletes we have in America. Too much pride and dont want to risk embarrassement so they'd rather play another physical sport with less of a risk. Clearly I could be wrong because hell I played college football myself and now I box but thats just my guess.


i've some friends like that, they just never did sports because they didn't have the focus. i think think of a lot of cats i grew up with that could have taken their natural talent to some high level in sports whether it's d1 football or the NFL but they never had the grades and just messed around through high school. a lot of them just dropped out.
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 15 2011, 12:50 PM) *
The bottom line is that Tyson never beat a prime A level fighter - ever.



Who has?


Wlad Klitschko hasn't (unless you acknowledge Byrd as an 'a' level fighter)
Vit Klit hasn't (Sam Peter? biggrin.gif )
Lennox Lewis hasn't (Tyson and Holy were past their primes)
Holyfield gets through by the skin of his teeth (if you consider out of shape Bowe an 'a' level prime fighter)

In fact, the last great heavyweight champion to beat a genuine, bonafide, 'a' level fighter in his prime was....hmmmm. Ali beating Foreman?


Unless of course your criteria for 'a' level is lesser than mine. In which case Tyson DID beat a prime 'a' level fighter in Michael Spinks.





Black
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 02:48 AM) *
Who has?


Wlad Klitschko hasn't (unless you acknowledge Byrd as an 'a' level fighter)
Vit Klit hasn't (Sam Peter? biggrin.gif )
Lennox Lewis hasn't (Tyson and Holy were past their primes)
Holyfield gets through by the skin of his teeth (if you consider out of shape Bowe an 'a' level prime fighter)

In fact, the last great heavyweight champion to beat a genuine, bonafide, 'a' level fighter in his prime was....hmmmm. Ali beating Foreman?


Unless of course your criteria for 'a' level is lesser than mine. In which case Tyson DID beat a prime 'a' level fighter in Michael Spinks.





Black


great post... and very well said...
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 05:48 PM) *
Who has?


Wlad Klitschko hasn't (unless you acknowledge Byrd as an 'a' level fighter)
Vit Klit hasn't (Sam Peter? biggrin.gif )
Lennox Lewis hasn't (Tyson and Holy were past their primes)
Holyfield gets through by the skin of his teeth (if you consider out of shape Bowe an 'a' level prime fighter)

In fact, the last great heavyweight champion to beat a genuine, bonafide, 'a' level fighter in his prime was....hmmmm. Ali beating Foreman?


Unless of course your criteria for 'a' level is lesser than mine. In which case Tyson DID beat a prime 'a' level fighter in Michael Spinks.





Black


Good post but I disagree completely. Unless your criteria for a A level fighter is that they must be an all time great?

I would say that if you are a genuine top contender such as Ray Mercer, Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota were at the time they faced Lewis then they are A level opponents.



JLUVBABY
here is the thing.... exactly what are we calling A level opponents?... if an all time great is what it takes to be an A level comp then the 90's only had 4 guys that fit that category maybe 5 if you wish to include bowe for a short period of time... but the other 3 where lewis holyfield foreman and tyson... to say the rest where B level fighters take away from one of the golden ages of the division... there where a lot of fighters that potentially could have won a belt on any given night given the circumstances...
salvador
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 02:48 AM) *
Who has?

Wlad Klitschko hasn't (unless you acknowledge Byrd as an 'a' level fighter)
Vit Klit hasn't (Sam Peter? biggrin.gif )
Lennox Lewis hasn't (Tyson and Holy were past their primes)
Holyfield gets through by the skin of his teeth (if you consider out of shape Bowe an 'a' level prime fighter)

In fact, the last great heavyweight champion to beat a genuine, bonafide, 'a' level fighter in his prime was....hmmmm. Ali beating Foreman?


Unless of course your criteria for 'a' level is lesser than mine. In which case Tyson DID beat a prime 'a' level fighter in Michael Spinks.

Black


I'm sorry Black, but Spinks, who started his career at 168 and spent most of it at 175 and who went into the ring against Tyson at his heaviest weight ever, 212, WAS NEVER AN A-LEVEL HW! He might have been an A-level lhw and maybe even cw, but there's no chance he could be considered a serious hw. Tyson had him so terrified during the stare down I thought he was going to cry - that is not the way A-level fighters behave. You could argue that the hw division needs to have one more division for guys 200-220 (as I don't see any 205 pound guy competing with Klits or Lewis), but Spinks was way way way too small to be a great modern hw. Which is Tyson's issue as well with Klits and Lewis.

Tyson's only A-level opponent was Holyfield who, as I stated earlier in the thread, I believe was at least as responsible for Tyson's decline as anything else. And, like I said earlier, there wasn't a single commentator at the time who thought Holyfield had a chance or who thought that Tyson had slipped much. It wasn't until after Tyson lost that suddenly prison/partying/divorce ect. was to blame. I just think the bully got bullied and his entire self perception changed.

And my point is that a prime Tyson weighed 215 pounds and his style was as an attack dog - which is great as long as guys don't have the weapons to keep him off. He wasn't nearly the pit bull with Holyfield or Lewis because those guys held their ground and didn't fold. The Klits and Lewis had the jabs to keep him off and they had the size and they had the power. And given the size difference, and given Tyson's performance against Holyfield and Lewis, and given the fact that there was a reason (whatever it was) that people in Tyson's camp chose not to fight Lewis for years, I would say that the smart money would be on Klit all day all night. (Maybe tyson wins by early ko 20-25% of the time - maybe.)

salvador
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 16 2011, 05:51 AM) *
He's got you there salvador.


on what planet?
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 16 2011, 11:57 AM) *
Good post but I disagree completely. Unless your criteria for a A level fighter is that they must be an all time great?

I would say that if you are a genuine top contender such as Ray Mercer, Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota were at the time they faced Lewis then they are A level opponents.



That is the point I was trying to make.
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 01:08 PM) *
I'm sorry Black, but Spinks, who started his career at 168 and spent most of it at 175 and who went into the ring against Tyson at his heaviest weight ever, 212, WAS NEVER AN A-LEVEL HW! He might have been an A-level lhw and maybe even cw, but there's no chance he could be considered a serious hw. Tyson had him so terrified during the stare down I thought he was going to cry - that is not the way A-level fighters behave. You could argue that the hw division needs to have one more division for guys 200-220 (as I don't see any 205 pound guy competing with Klits or Lewis), but Spinks was way way way too small to be a great modern hw. Which is Tyson's issue as well with Klits and Lewis.

Tyson's only A-level opponent was Holyfield who, as I stated earlier in the thread, I believe was at least as responsible for Tyson's decline as anything else. And, like I said earlier, there wasn't a single commentator at the time who thought Holyfield had a chance or who thought that Tyson had slipped much. It wasn't until after Tyson lost that suddenly prison/partying/divorce ect. was to blame. I just think the bully got bullied and his entire self perception changed.

And my point is that a prime Tyson weighed 215 pounds and his style was as an attack dog - which is great as long as guys don't have the weapons to keep him off. He wasn't nearly the pit bull with Holyfield or Lewis because those guys held their ground and didn't fold. The Klits and Lewis had the jabs to keep him off and they had the size and they had the power. And given the size difference, and given Tyson's performance against Holyfield and Lewis, and given the fact that there was a reason (whatever it was) that people in Tyson's camp chose not to fight Lewis for years, I would say that the smart money would be on Klit all day all night. (Maybe tyson wins by early ko 20-25% of the time - maybe.)



Granted, but if by that criteria Spinks doesn't get through, then who are the 'a' level prime fighters who Lewis and the other great heavyweight champs beat?



Black
salvador
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 07:39 AM) *
Granted, but if by that criteria Spinks doesn't get through, then who are the 'a' level prime fighters who Lewis and the other great heavyweight champs beat?



Black


Lewis beat Holyfield twice at a point when Holyfield was at least near his prime. (I know, but the first fight was clearly a robbery.) I think Holyfield and Bowe beat each other at prime time. I know that Holyfield was in his 30s for both, but with the roids and given that hws seem to age well I'm counting those fights. And I would say Holyfield-Tyson was pretty damn close to prime time as well. Those would be the most recent for me.

And my point was that in order to make the argument that Tyson could have beaten Wlad, who I believe you would agree is absolutely an A-level guy, you would have to be able to show that Tyson could beat him in spite of the huge size difference - or at least make a credible argument as to how Tyson deals with the jab and the power of a guy with every physical advantage. And I just don't see it. Tyson had the opportunity to prove it against Lewis in the late 1990s but chose not to.

blackbelt2003
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 01:53 PM) *
I know that Holyfield was in his 30s for both, but with the roids and given that hws seem to age well I'm counting those fights.




Well, by that criteria I'm counting Larry Holmes as an 'a' level guy for Tyson, too. He was in his 30's and was still a top notch contender for years after Tyson beat him (similar to Holy losing to Lewis). He outweighed Tyson, too.


Tyson didn't destroy him just because Larry was old and rusty. If that was the case, Holyfield, McCall, Mercer and all the other guys would have destroyed him, too, because he was even older when he fought them.


Whilst I think about it, Tony Tucker might qualify, too. He was a DAMNED good fighter. His skill set was certainly 'a' list, he just didn't quite have the breaks to get more title wins under his belt.




Black
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 01:53 PM) *
And my point was that in order to make the argument that Tyson could have beaten Wlad, who I believe you would agree is absolutely an A-level guy, you would have to be able to show that Tyson could beat him in spite of the huge size difference - or at least make a credible argument as to how Tyson deals with the jab and the power of a guy with every physical advantage. And I just don't see it. Tyson had the opportunity to prove it against Lewis in the late 1990s but chose not to.



You could say there's no evidence to say that ANY heavyweight pre Lennox Lewis could have beaten Wlad, simply because there has never been a heavyweight of Wlad's size with his skill set in previous eras.


So by that conclusion, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Holmes...there is no evidence to show ANY of them would deal with a guy as big and as good as Wlad.


Having watched the Haye fight and seeing how good a smaller guy did against him, I personally think they'd have done just fine.





Black


PS...nice to have an intelligent debate, Salvador, makes a change from banging my head up against a brick wall with Pactards and Flomos!!! drinks.gif
salvador
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 08:33 AM) *
Well, by that criteria I'm counting Larry Holmes as an 'a' level guy for Tyson, too. He was in his 30's and was still a top notch contender for years after Tyson beat him (similar to Holy losing to Lewis). He outweighed Tyson, too.


Tyson didn't destroy him just because Larry was old and rusty. If that was the case, Holyfield, McCall, Mercer and all the other guys would have destroyed him, too, because he was even older when he fought them.


Whilst I think about it, Tony Tucker might qualify, too. He was a DAMNED good fighter. His skill set was certainly 'a' list, he just didn't quite have the breaks to get more title wins under his belt.

Black


Tucker was Tyson's best opponent pre prison.

Holmes was beyond rusty. He was 38, out of shape, awkward and uncoordinated, and coming off a nearly 2 year layoff and I believe he considered himself to be retired before getting the call for a huge check. I also believe that fight was done on relatively short notice, like 8 weeks. I could be wrong.

blackbelt2003
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 02:43 PM) *
Tucker was Tyson's best opponent pre prison.

Holmes was beyond rusty. He was 38, out of shape, awkward and uncoordinated, and coming off a nearly 2 year layoff and I believe he considered himself to be retired before getting the call for a huge check. I also believe that fight was done on relatively short notice, like 8 weeks. I could be wrong.



Yeah, but Holmes looked bloody good considering in the first few rounds. His movement was still there, his jab was sharp and his coordination looked fine to me, especially as Holmes ALWAYS looked a little uncoordinated in the ring, like a slightly drunk Ali, but effective nonetheless.


To summise, I think it's almost impossible for most fighters to pass the 'beat an atg in their prime to be considered great yourself' test, because there is always an asterisk aside the win. Holyfield, for my mind, beat a prime Bowe (despite Bowe coming in out of shape - there's the asterisk again!), a close to prime Foreman (close to his second prime if you get my meaning!!!), a fairly close to prime Tyson (maybe 60-70% of what the prime Tyson was). If he'd got the second decision against Lewis, that would have sealed it for him.

And the same with Lennox, Tyson was shot and faded by then, Holyfield was old and couldn't even deal with Ruiz properly in his next few fights which showed how far he'd slipped since beating Moorer (his last great performance), Rahman was hardly great and Vitali wasn't considered great, either.


In fact, there's only a few rare occasions where one great fighter beats another great fighter at their prime weights at the prime of their careers with no asterisks.



Black
jlupi
Did you see Tyson-Lewis? >>>>>


that tyson was a 3 rd shot fighter.


at his best tyson all day. after prison or douglas type shape he gets fustrated after the 3rd
salvador
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 08:40 AM) *
You could say there's no evidence to say that ANY heavyweight pre Lennox Lewis could have beaten Wlad, simply because there has never been a heavyweight of Wlad's size with his skill set in previous eras.

So by that conclusion, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Holmes...there is no evidence to show ANY of them would deal with a guy as big and as good as Wlad.

Having watched the Haye fight and seeing how good a smaller guy did against him, I personally think they'd have done just fine.

Black

PS...nice to have an intelligent debate, Salvador, makes a change from banging my head up against a brick wall with Pactards and Flomos!!! drinks.gif


I agree about having a decent debate - especially on a topic that I never would have bothered with if George hadn't started the thread!

I think that Wlad would have been the favorite over every one of the fighters you mentioned above due to his size, jab and power. That said, a big difference between the guys you mentioned above and Tyson is that every one of those guys went out of their way (and were defined by) to fight the very best out there. Liston was unbeatable until Ali. Ali was unbeatable until Frazier. ect ect. Tyson didn't go out of his way to fight the best which makes me question whether or not he believed he could win. Because a Tyson who doesn't believe he can beat a Lewis or Klit ain't never going to win because his entire game is dependent upon his confidence.

I think that getting ko'd twice has made Wlad more cautious and less terrifying. He's more about winning rounds than destroying guys like he was pre-Brewster. I still think that his jab and his right hand are enough to keep 220 pound guys away (especially those he towers over), but he's definitely not the same fighter. And those losses ultimately made Wlad harder to beat in the same way Floyd is harder to beat when he's defensive. Wlad doesn't give guys chances at the one punch ko. Too bad for boxing, but probably good for Wlad's win-loss ratio.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 08:33 AM) *
Well, by that criteria I'm counting Larry Holmes as an 'a' level guy for Tyson, too. He was in his 30's and was still a top notch contender for years after Tyson beat him (similar to Holy losing to Lewis). He outweighed Tyson, too.


Tyson didn't destroy him just because Larry was old and rusty. If that was the case, Holyfield, McCall, Mercer and all the other guys would have destroyed him, too, because he was even older when he fought them.


Whilst I think about it, Tony Tucker might qualify, too. He was a DAMNED good fighter. His skill set was certainly 'a' list, he just didn't quite have the breaks to get more title wins under his belt.




Black


tyrell biggs was another fighter most EXPERTS at the time had picked to beat tyson... biggs could be looked at as an A list opponent... gold medalist in 84 olympics... he was a stud contender when tyson beat him and also undefeated......
Method
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jul 16 2011, 09:40 AM) *
So by that conclusion, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Holmes...there is no evidence to show ANY of them would deal with a guy as big and as good as Wlad.

PS...nice to have an intelligent debate, Salvador, makes a change from banging my head up against a brick wall with Pactards and Flomos!!! drinks.gif

Given that Wlad's lost to guys worse than Ali, Louis, Forman, etc., there's plenty of evidence to suggest they'd have done just fine w him.

I dont think Wlad is A-Caliber WHATSOEVER. What's more, I KNOW, just by the way he fights, that Wlad doesnt think he's A-Caliber either.
salvador
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 16 2011, 09:45 AM) *
Given that Wlad's lost to guys worse than Ali, Louis, Forman, etc., there's plenty of evidence to suggest they'd have done just fine w him.

I dont think Wlad is A-Caliber WHATSOEVER. What's more, I KNOW, just by the way he fights, that Wlad doesnt think he's A-Caliber either.


The thing about those guys you mentioned is that they never faced anyone with Wlad's jab, size, or power. You could argue that Ali had a better/quicker jab, but he didn't have a longer or heavier jab. Foreman might have had more power to the body, but he surely didn't have anything to compare to Wlad's overhand right. Wlad has a weak chin and tends to get tired and any one of those guys could catch him (particularly pre-Brewster when he was less cautious), but put him up against any of those guys 10 times and Wlad wins at least 6 times.

When Lewis was fighting, people on this board were constantly criticizing him as if he was a fluke and boring and would have gotten beaten by the guys you mentioned above because of his glass jaw, but I don't think people think that now.

Wlad doesn't have the confidence he had pre-Brewster, but it's not like he hasn't totally dominated the division either. He's boring as hell, but you have to get past that jab to beat him and I don't think you could argue that any of those guys above would have had an easy time doing it.

And in the same way you KNOW Wlad doesn't think he's A-Caliber, Tyson obviously didn't think he was A-Caliber either or he would have fought Lewis sooner. And by that same argument, I think it's reasonable to say that just like Wlad lost a great deal of confidence against Brewster, Tyson lost his against Holyfield. The big difference was that Wlad had a jab/size/reach/power advantage he could hide behind afterwards, which Tyson didn't have.
Lil-lightsout
I am sorry but no way Wlad beats Tyson ever, prime for prime. The reason is simple. At some point Wlad is going to get hit and he would get KO'd. You watch Tyson fight all those other big guys and he is relentless and gets in plenty of shots regardless of their size. There is no way Wlad ever could have taking the pressure or power of Tyson. You really think Wlad could have kept safe for 12 rounds and kept Tyson at bay the whole time? Tyson has shown a great beard taking big shots from big men where Wlad simply has a terrible chin. Slow ass Peter had him down 3 times, I am sure Tyson would have kept him down.

This debate would never even take place if this division was not so shitty.
salvador
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Jul 16 2011, 10:41 AM) *
I am sorry but no way Wlad beats Tyson ever, prime for prime. The reason is simple. At some point Wlad is going to get hit and he would get KO'd. You watch Tyson fight all those other big guys and he is relentless and gets in plenty of shots regardless of their size. There is no way Wlad ever could have taking the pressure or power of Tyson. You really think Wlad could have kept safe for 12 rounds and kept Tyson at bay the whole time? Tyson has shown a great beard taking big shots from big men where Wlad simply has a terrible chin. Slow ass Peter had him down 3 times, I am sure Tyson would have kept him down.

This debate would never even take place if this division was not so shitty.


Tyson wasn't so relentless against Holyfield or Lewis. And if he had been against Lewis, he would have been ko'd much sooner.
gravytrain
does Wlad really deserve for the bar to be set so high? it's seemingly like previous champions wouldn't have a chance against him unless they fought a 6'8" 250 pound A level fighter while they were in their prime and the fight was on the 2nd Wednesday in June on the night all the planets are aligned. who's he beaten to make him invincible? his record isn't any better than Tyson's record, i would take it over Wlad's any day. he beat everyone from Berbick to Spinks in like 18 months.

Wlad has proven time and time again he's not invincible. smaller HWs would be game against him just like the similar sized and less skilled HWs of today have landed punches on him.
Method
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 11:27 AM) *
The thing about those guys you mentioned is that they never faced anyone with Wlad's jab, size, or power. You could argue that Ali had a better/quicker jab, but he didn't have a longer or heavier jab. Foreman might have had more power to the body, but he surely didn't have anything to compare to Wlad's overhand right. Wlad has a weak chin and tends to get tired and any one of those guys could catch him (particularly pre-Brewster when he was less cautious), but put him up against any of those guys 10 times and Wlad wins at least 6 times.

When Lewis was fighting, people on this board were constantly criticizing him as if he was a fluke and boring and would have gotten beaten by the guys you mentioned above because of his glass jaw, but I don't think people think that now.

Wlad doesn't have the confidence he had pre-Brewster, but it's not like he hasn't totally dominated the division either. He's boring as hell, but you have to get past that jab to beat him and I don't think you could argue that any of those guys above would have had an easy time doing it.

And in the same way you KNOW Wlad doesn't think he's A-Caliber, Tyson obviously didn't think he was A-Caliber either or he would have fought Lewis sooner. And by that same argument, I think it's reasonable to say that just like Wlad lost a great deal of confidence against Brewster, Tyson lost his against Holyfield. The big difference was that Wlad had a jab/size/reach/power advantage he could hide behind afterwards, which Tyson didn't have.


The FUCK they haven't. Wlad is HORRIBLE. I'd take a prime Foreman over Wlad ALL DAY EVERY DAY...TWICE A DAY.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 11:44 AM) *
Tyson wasn't so relentless against Holyfield or Lewis. And if he had been against Lewis, he would have been ko'd much sooner.


Come on man... Tyson was way past it by then. Why do you keep bringing up those fights? I am talking the Tyson who fought Biggs, Ribalto, Bruno, Spinks, Tucker, Berbick, Holmes, etc. We are talking a prime Tyson.
salvador
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Jul 16 2011, 05:05 PM) *
Come on man... Tyson was way past it by then. Why do you keep bringing up those fights? I am talking the Tyson who fought Biggs, Ribalto, Bruno, Spinks, Tucker, Berbick, Holmes, etc. We are talking a prime Tyson.


I guess for me the most important distinction between our views is that I don't think that prison/divorce/partying/losing Cus were the main cause of Tyson's 1990s spiral. I tend to give more credit to Holyfield, who would have beaten every fighter Tyson beat and who was easily the best and most prime fighter Tyson ever faced (Lewis was older than Tyson when they met). I really think Tyson's downfall was the psychological trauma Holyfield gave him because it shattered Tyson's self image as baddest man on earth. And I think that would have happened if Tyson had faced Holyfield or Lewis or a prime Klit. And the reason I do is because Tyson's style was fueled, more than any other fighter I've ever seen, on sheer confidence.

And I just think that as exciting as he was, Tyson wasn't invincible even in his prime. And the fighters you mentioned above were not on Klit's level, and I don't think you would argue that they were. Tyson's shortfalls were that he never had a plan B (my very favorite thing about him) and even if he did, he wasn't a good enough fighter to overcome Klit's massive advantages. That's just my opinion.

JONdaCON817
Ide take Sergio Martinez over Wlad if they fought the day before tomorrow. lmao
gravytrain
QUOTE (salvador @ Jul 16 2011, 07:38 PM) *
I guess for me the most important distinction between our views is that I don't think that prison/divorce/partying/losing Cus were the main cause of Tyson's 1990s spiral. I tend to give more credit to Holyfield, who would have beaten every fighter Tyson beat and who was easily the best and most prime fighter Tyson ever faced (Lewis was older than Tyson when they met). I really think Tyson's downfall was the psychological trauma Holyfield gave him because it shattered Tyson's self image as baddest man on earth. And I think that would have happened if Tyson had faced Holyfield or Lewis or a prime Klit. And the reason I do is because Tyson's style was fueled, more than any other fighter I've ever seen, on sheer confidence.

And I just think that as exciting as he was, Tyson wasn't invincible even in his prime. And the fighters you mentioned above were not on Klit's level, and I don't think you would argue that they were. Tyson's shortfalls were that he never had a plan B (my very favorite thing about him) and even if he did, he wasn't a good enough fighter to overcome Klit's massive advantages. That's just my opinion.



if so many fighters can tag Wlad what makes Tyson any different? more importantly how can Tyson land jabs and power punches on Lennox Lewis but not Wlad?

salvador
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 16 2011, 06:54 PM) *
if so many fighters can tag Wlad what makes Tyson any different? more importantly how can Tyson land jabs and power punches on Lennox Lewis but not Wlad?


No one's saying that Tyson's not going to land punches and, like I said earlier, probably ko Klit a fair number of times out of 100 - just not most times out of 100. My guess is 20-25% of the time Tyson would land something lethal. The rest of the time Klit wins either by ko or by points depending on how aggressive Tyson is.
mgrover
I don't understand why people are comparing Tyson to a guy like Wlad. I mean really? when Tyson was truly invincible he was unbeatable. but Wlad? wtf the dudes fighting a shit division, its not his fault, but the division is terrible and the manor or his KOs haven't been that impressive. tyson won his title in the second round after slaughtering Berbick. i also saw the comment on Wlads power. more than foreman? the only logical way I could argue that is, are you high. Foreman was one of, if not the most powerful puncher in the history of the sport, and you throw Wlads name in there because of his jab......Sure.....
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