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lloyd mayflower
It doesnt matter when I think he should have started asking for it, because in my world with my clear vision, drug testing in boxing has never and will never be a real issue for Floyd Mayweather. What is CLEARLY an issue for Floyd Mayweather is the rise of Manny Pacquiao both to his division, and to his spot of number one on a lot of peoples p4p, and the reason why this all kicked off in the first place in this thread was because I was following up someone elses point about the undercard guys being tested and stating that I dont see how anyone can argue the legitimacy of Floyds stance.

Also, I dont think I resorted to name calling. I did point out that you are irrational, but thats just an observation really. No need to get all upset about it. I think you should re read my posts in this thread because they actually arent laced with hatred at all. Your full of shit. My posts simply present a side of an arguement that you clearly dont like so are unwilling to discuss it.
Seek
I still think there will be issues during the next negotiations. How I see it is Pacquiao will have to be tested by a filipino agency under WADA protocol while training in the philipines and USADA would do the testing while training here in the USA. I think Floyd wants the fight and agrees to this however it's not always so simple when it comes to negotiating with Bob Arum. I think the timing is just right and Floyd is making his move. You don't agree to 50/50 purse, gloves ring and weight stipulations + offer a cut-off date to your original demand in order to duck someone. Floyd wants it bad imho
Jack 1000
QUOTE (CDeezFoo @ Aug 6 2011, 11:59 AM) *
it seems as nobody remembers when Floyd beat Oscar, i think...but one of those fights he said that he was gonna step away for a minute to let somebody build there name up ..so he could come back..get that money then kill em. hatred blinds people and they dont realize that floyd set this up years ago.. he will absolutely shut out manny...manny has 0 defense...none..clottey was killen manny with uppercuts..but didnt want to engage. i have 3 homies that im betting with and im doubling whatever they put up..id put up the house


I still see the fight as a little more competitive, but an easy win for Floyd around 8-4. I look at Juan Marquez, the fighter who gave Manny two of the most microscopically close decisions of Manny's career. A fighter whom Mayweather shut out. And anything Marquez can do, Floyd can do better. I still think Manny-Marquez III will be a better fight than people think. Manny needs to brawl against Floyd to be competitive. and he might have a 40% chance of doing that. But 60% chance says Floyd won't let him. Mayweather will pivot and roll and pot-shot his way to a decision.

Jack
Seek
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 10 2011, 02:39 PM) *
I still see the fight as a little more competitive, but an easy win for Floyd around 8-4. I look at Juan Marquez, the fighter who gave Manny two of the most microscopically close decisions of Manny's career. A fighter whom Mayweather shut out. And anything Marquez can do, Floyd can do better. I still think Manny-Marquez III will be a better fight than people think. Manny needs to brawl against Floyd to be competitive. and he might have a 40% chance of doing that. But 60% chance says Floyd won't let him. Mayweather will pivot and roll and pot-shot his way to a decision.

Jack


Agreed on everything. Khan has a better chance vs Floyd imo due to his jab and physical advantages.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 10 2011, 02:39 PM) *
I still see the fight as a little more competitive, but an easy win for Floyd around 8-4. I look at Juan Marquez, the fighter who gave Manny two of the most microscopically close decisions of Manny's career. A fighter whom Mayweather shut out. And anything Marquez can do, Floyd can do better. I still think Manny-Marquez III will be a better fight than people think. Manny needs to brawl against Floyd to be competitive. and he might have a 40% chance of doing that. But 60% chance says Floyd won't let him. Mayweather will pivot and roll and pot-shot his way to a decision.

Jack


Pretty poor deductive reasoning. If boxing has taught us anything, it's that you don't try and deduce an outcome by studying their fights against common opponents. Especially considering the manner and circumstances of those fights. I don't have a dog in that fight, I'm a huge fan of both guys, but you're fairly naive if you think Mayweather's sudden enlightenment regarding drug testing was out of a sense of nobility, and not a sense of trepidation in fighting Pacquiao. Mayweather believes Pac is on something, and he believes he's "an extraordinary fighter" (his words).

I just don't foresee a scenario in which Mayweather beats Pacquiao at this point in their careers... Mayweather can't just move to his left and throw counter punches against a man with faster feet, faster hands, tremendous accuracy, and powerful punches. Pacquiao is a devastating counter puncher in his own right, and he'll be prepared for the movement Mayweather is going to have to utilize to have to win. It's Mayweather's only way to win, and Roach already knows that.

*** Another point of contention is this: Mayweather CANNOT do everything better than Marquez can do. Specifically, he doesn't have the courage, power, nor the combination punching required to keep Pacquiao off of him.
Allmenjoi8
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 10 2011, 02:42 PM) *
Pretty poor deductive reasoning. If boxing has taught us anything, it's that you don't try and deduce an outcome by studying their fights against common opponents. Especially considering the manner and circumstances of those fights. I don't have a dog in that fight, I'm a huge fan of both guys, but you're fairly naive if you think Mayweather's sudden enlightenment regarding drug testing was out of a sense of nobility, and not a sense of trepidation in fighting Pacquiao. Mayweather believes Pac is on something, and he believes he's "an extraordinary fighter" (his words).

I just don't foresee a scenario in which Mayweather beats Pacquiao at this point in their careers... Mayweather can't just move to his left and throw counter punches against a man with faster feet, faster hands, tremendous accuracy, and powerful punches. Pacquiao is a devastating counter puncher in his own right, and he'll be prepared for the movement Mayweather is going to have to utilize to have to win. It's Mayweather's only way to win, and Roach already knows that.

*** Another point of contention is this: Mayweather CANNOT do everything better than Marquez can do. Specifically, he doesn't have the courage, power, nor the combination punching required to keep Pacquiao off of him.


I stopped reading after you said tremendous accuracy. Just because you throw a millions punches a round does not mean you are accurate. Pac could not hit a 38 Shane Mosely, he can't cut off the ring and his defense is laughable. You have no idea if May slowed down, wait until the Ortiz fight. May is a way smarter boxer than Manny. While Manny will continue to come forward May will pot shot the crap out of him the entire not. Not only that but Manny's feet get tangled, he lunges forward... And just because you have quick hands does not mean a win see the following boxers: Berto, Ortiz, Khan, and Judah, and Tyson.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 10 2011, 03:52 PM) *
I stopped reading after you said tremendous accuracy. Just because you throw a millions punches a round does not mean you are accurate. Pac could not hit a 38 Shane Mosely, he can't cut off the ring and his defense is laughable. You have no idea if May slowed down, wait until the Ortiz fight. May is a way smarter boxer than Manny. While Manny will continue to come forward May will pot shot the crap out of him the entire not. Not only that but Manny's feet get tangled, he lunges forward... And just because you have quick hands does not mean a win see the following boxers: Berto, Ortiz, Khan, and Judah, and Tyson.


Um, Pacquiao landed 50% of his power punches against Mosley. I'm not convinced Pac will simply come forward, and he's not a dumb fighter, he's just offense-minded, and Mayweather isn't courageous enough to reach out to counter Pac when he lunges off balance. Pac will probably come out and circle Floyd the way he did against de la Hoya. Floyd's plasticity and mobility aren't what they use to be and Pac will exploit that. He will also exploit Floyd's biggest flaw: his one-punch-at-a-time-pace.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 10 2011, 03:01 PM) *
Um, Pacquiao landed 50% of his power punches against Mosley. I'm not convinced Pac will simply come forward, and he's not a dumb fighter, he's just offense-minded, and Mayweather isn't courageous enough to reach out to counter Pac when he lunges off balance. Pac will probably come out and circle Floyd the way he did against de la Hoya. Floyd's plasticity and mobility aren't what they use to be and Pac will exploit that. He will also exploit Floyd's biggest flaw: his one-punch-at-a-time-pace.



The real difference is that every opponent that mayweather faces has a much lower punch output. Pac is not deadly accurate, he lands shots but without a high output how accurate will he be? He threw 250 more punches against shane, yet only landed only 16 more. Its a hard fight to call and either man could win and thats why the fight is so compelling. I saw a lot of holes in Pacs game with the Mosley fight(just my opinion), Mosley was able to stay away from Pac and turn him. There is no argument in my eyes that says mayweather cant do the same and counter while doing it. It would be a great fight, one that could be debated a million times but we won't know until it happens
ks1
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 10 2011, 04:01 PM) *
Um, Pacquiao landed 50% of his power punches against Mosley. I'm not convinced Pac will simply come forward, and he's not a dumb fighter, he's just offense-minded, and Mayweather isn't courageous enough to reach out to counter Pac when he lunges off balance. Pac will probably come out and circle Floyd the way he did against de la Hoya. Floyd's plasticity and mobility aren't what they use to be and Pac will exploit that. He will also exploit Floyd's biggest flaw: his one-punch-at-a-time-pace.


Um, Pac couldn't cutoff the ring and finish a shot Mosely who didn't want to be there. All Mosely had to do to survive and keep Pac off him was move a little and throw the occasional jab and tie up Pac when he lunged in. So now I'm supposed to buy that all Pac needs to do is "circle" Floyd and that's it, huh? Yeah...... Where do you get the notion that Floyd is slowing down from? He always fights at a controlled pace. And I'm not sure how you're measuring his "plasticity" (I'll assume you mean flexibility) among other things. What's all this odd talk about "courage" or lack thereof? It won't take any "courage" to tag an off balance fighter. It's a counetrpunchers M.O. I think you're reaching a bit.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 10 2011, 02:52 PM) *
I stopped reading after you said tremendous accuracy. Just because you throw a millions punches a round does not mean you are accurate. Pac could not hit a 38 Shane Mosely, he can't cut off the ring and his defense is laughable. You have no idea if May slowed down, wait until the Ortiz fight. May is a way smarter boxer than Manny. While Manny will continue to come forward May will pot shot the crap out of him the entire not. Not only that but Manny's feet get tangled, he lunges forward... And just because you have quick hands does not mean a win see the following boxers: Berto, Ortiz, Khan, and Judah, and Tyson.


Actually Pac is a tremendous sharp shooter, it is one of his strengths.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (ks1 @ Aug 10 2011, 03:41 PM) *
Um, Pac couldn't cutoff the ring and finish a shot Mosely who didn't want to be there. All Mosely had to do to survive and keep Pac off him was move a little and throw the occasional jab and tie up Pac when he lunged in. So now I'm supposed to buy that all Pac needs to do is "circle" Floyd and that's it, huh? Yeah...... Where do you get the notion that Floyd is slowing down from? He always fights at a controlled pace. And I'm not sure how you're measuring his "plasticity" (I'll assume you mean flexibility) among other things. What's all this odd talk about "courage" or lack thereof? It won't take any "courage" to tag an off balance fighter. It's a counetrpunchers M.O. I think you're reaching a bit.


Look Pac had an off night and I don't think he was really up for it to be honest. However have a look at the round that Mosley got given that knock down that was really a push. Shoot Pac got angry for a New York minute there and all of a sudden he was able to cut off Molsey, catch Mosley and for a second I thought he might stop him. All in all it was a dud fight and Pac knew it in his heart.

It was a shitty fight that should've never happened and Pac put in a performance that acknowledged that.
EAlbian
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 10 2011, 04:00 PM) *
Actually Pac is a tremendous sharp shooter, it is one of his strengths.


He was more so when he favored that big straight left but roach has implemented timing and combination punching which has taken away from this. He is not extremely accurate with single shots but he does place his punches well. He is not a sloppy fighter by any means. I just don't know how accurate he will be against someone like Mayweather who has a tendency to drastically lower opponents punch output. I also don't know how Mayweather will react to the angles and foot speed of Pac, Hatton troubled May with this for the first two rounds and Hatton is no Pacquiao
EAlbian
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 10 2011, 04:03 PM) *
Look Pac had an off night and I don't think he was really up for it to be honest. However have a look at the round that Mosley got given that knock down that was really a push. Shoot Pac got angry for a New York minute there and all of a sudden he was able to cut off Molsey, catch Mosley and for a second I thought he might stop him. All in all it was a dud fight and Pac knew it in his heart.

It was a shitty fight that should've never happened and Pac put in a performance that acknowledged that.



Mosley is no mayweather either...
ks1
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 10 2011, 05:03 PM) *
Look Pac had an off night and I don't think he was really up for it to be honest. However have a look at the round that Mosley got given that knock down that was really a push. Shoot Pac got angry for a New York minute there and all of a sudden he was able to cut off Molsey, catch Mosley and for a second I thought he might stop him. All in all it was a dud fight and Pac knew it in his heart.

It was a shitty fight that should've never happened and Pac put in a performance that acknowledged that.


I generally agree with you about the fight but, c'mon now, Pac had a flurry of activity after the bogus knockdown but he wasn't near to stopping Mosely in that round. Mosely tied him up and weathered the storm and that was it.
sduck
Pacquiao is a beast but he is not on Floyd's level. The only thing Pacquiao has that will give Mayweather trouble is that straight left. One-Dimensional. Just like Mosley's right hand, it's going to get neutralized. Expect a UD by lopsided numbers or a stoppage by round 10. I wish I could give Pacquiao more credit, but it's going to be the hard truth for a lot of people.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (ks1 @ Aug 10 2011, 04:18 PM) *
I generally agree with you about the fight but, c'mon now, Pac had a flurry of activity after the bogus knockdown but he wasn't near to stopping Mosely in that round. Mosely tied him up and weathered the storm and that was it.


I said for a second there. I think Mosley was quite badly hurt in that round. But to be honest Pac was flat that night and didn't really have it in him to go for that KO.
Hops
Since Pacquiao is not of Floyd's level, then Floyd should just STFU, pay for the additional blood tests, then whoop Pac's ass.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Hops @ Aug 10 2011, 05:48 PM) *
Since Pacquiao is not of Floyd's level, then Floyd should just STFU, pay for the additional blood tests, then whoop Pac's ass.


Floyd is fighting someone else and so is Pac so I don't see why everyone is talking about this fantasy match-up. They have both expressed a willingness to fight each other, each demanding certain stipulations, so when they take care of there present opposition they can focus on each other. I don't see how all the burden falls on Mayweather, they have both made request of the other fighter not mandated by any governing body. They are both HOFers but need one another to take them to that next plateau, if they don't fight the blame lies on both fighters.. not one or the other
Allmenjoi8
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 10 2011, 06:09 PM) *
Floyd is fighting someone else and so is Pac so I don't see why everyone is talking about this fantasy match-up. They have both expressed a willingness to fight each other, each demanding certain stipulations, so when they take care of there present opposition they can focus on each other. I don't see how all the burden falls on Mayweather, they have both made request of the other fighter not mandated by any governing body. They are both HOFers but need one another to take them to that next plateau, if they don't fight the blame lies on both fighters.. not one or the other


+1. Well said.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (ks1 @ Aug 10 2011, 04:41 PM) *
Um, Pac couldn't cutoff the ring and finish a shot Mosely who didn't want to be there. All Mosely had to do to survive and keep Pac off him was move a little and throw the occasional jab and tie up Pac when he lunged in. So now I'm supposed to buy that all Pac needs to do is "circle" Floyd and that's it, huh? Yeah...... Where do you get the notion that Floyd is slowing down from? He always fights at a controlled pace. And I'm not sure how you're measuring his "plasticity" (I'll assume you mean flexibility) among other things. What's all this odd talk about "courage" or lack thereof? It won't take any "courage" to tag an off balance fighter. It's a counetrpunchers M.O. I think you're reaching a bit.


I don't think Manny was entirely prepared to fight a guy who didn't want to engage. Unless Pac bum rushed Mosley (giving Mosley his only shot to win), there isn't much a fighter can do against an experienced veteran who still has power and speed but doesn't want to throw a punch unless given an open target. However, Roach and Pac are already prepared for movement if it comes down to it. You don't beat guys like Pac and Floyd if they already know how you're gonna fight (i.e. Hatton).

Having watched Mayweather's recent fights very closely, notably the last two, I think the added muscle to his shoulders and legs have robbed him of fluidity and energy. He was incapable of putting a combination together down the stretch against Marquez, and if you pay close attention and turn off the announcers, he gets hit with a number of clean body punches, including one which buckled his knees against Mosley. I think Floyd feels tired down the stretch of fights lately and I think the years of candy, soda, no vitamins, and no conditioning coach are taking a slight toll on him. He's still perhaps the top fighter in the world, but he's not what he once was. His father has expressed the same thoughts.

It certainly takes courage to fight back and counter against Pacquiao. He's very rarely in range when he lunges off balance, and Morales and Marquez would never have given him the trouble that they did had they not struck Pac with some trepidation with their power and aggressive retaliations. Mayweather can sit back and counter if he wants, but he's not going to win that way. It's not only "circling" that Pac has to do, but also lead, then counter and get into that sort of rhythm. Mayweather has never faced movement, speed, intelligence, and power in one opponent before.
duwdu
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 10 2011, 09:07 PM) *
I don't think Manny was entirely prepared to fight a guy who didn't want to engage. Unless Pac bum rushed Mosley (giving Mosley his only shot to win), there isn't much a fighter can do against an experienced veteran who still has power and speed but doesn't want to throw a punch unless given an open target. However, Roach and Pac are already prepared for movement if it comes down to it. You don't beat guys like Pac and Floyd if they already know how you're gonna fight (i.e. Hatton).

Having watched Mayweather's recent fights very closely, notably the last two, I think the added muscle to his shoulders and legs have robbed him of fluidity and energy. He was incapable of putting a combination together down the stretch against Marquez, and if you pay close attention and turn off the announcers, he gets hit with a number of clean body punches, including one which buckled his knees against Mosley. I think Floyd feels tired down the stretch of fights lately and I think the years of candy, soda, no vitamins, and no conditioning coach are taking a slight toll on him. He's still perhaps the top fighter in the world, but he's not what he once was. His father has expressed the same thoughts.

It certainly takes courage to fight back and counter against Pacquiao. He's very rarely in range when he lunges off balance, and Morales and Marquez would never have given him the trouble that they did had they not struck Pac with some trepidation with their power and aggressive retaliations. Mayweather can sit back and counter if he wants, but he's not going to win that way. It's not only "circling" that Pac has to do, but also lead, then counter and get into that sort of rhythm. Mayweather has never faced movement, speed, intelligence, and power in one opponent before.

I agree with some of your points. However, using the view of Mayweather Snr. to argument a point only helps to weaken such a point in most cases. The man is simply incoherent, and mostly argues out of turn. He's been held on positions as diverse as "Jr. is never going to fight a southpaw again...," to "my son will not accept that Pacquiao trains in the Philippines for a fight that would stage in the US..." The first type would usually be debunked by Junior shortly afterwards and many times over, and we have reasons to believe his son would not necessarily subscribe to the second type. The man doesn't even train his son, one of the reasons being that they fundamentally disagree in and outside the ring, so how would he be a credible authority?

On the two fighting rivals themselves, It's ok to state that Mayweather has never faced the level of qualities you see in Pacquiao. It is also ok though to say Pacquiao has never faced the level of qualities that are generally associated with Mayweather. So it goes both ways. The reason I'm making this point is that when the qualities of only one of the two "gladiators" is exclusively showcased in an argument, it essentially just leads to a phantom conclusion.

P34c3
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (duwdu @ Aug 11 2011, 07:26 PM) *
I agree with some of your points. However, using the view of Mayweather Snr. to argument a point only helps to weaken such a point in most cases. The man is simply incoherent, and mostly argues out of turn. He's been held on positions as diverse as "Jr. is never going to fight a southpaw again...," to "my son will not accept that Pacquiao trains in the Philippines for a fight that would stage in the US..." The first type would usually be debunked by Junior shortly afterwards and many times over, and we have reasons to believe his son would not necessarily subscribe to the second type. The man doesn't even train his son, one of the reasons being that they fundamentally disagree in and outside the ring, so how would he be a credible authority?

On the two fighting rivals themselves, It's ok to state that Mayweather has never faced the level of qualities you see in Pacquiao. It is also ok though to say Pacquiao has never faced the level of qualities that are generally associated with Mayweather. So it goes both ways. The reason I'm making this point is that when the qualities of only one of the two "gladiators" is exclusively showcased in an argument, it essentially just leads to a phantom conclusion.

P34c3


I sorta agree and disagree with this statement. Yes Senior & Junior do seem to clash an awful lot, battle of the King sized ego's however the not training him part I'm not so sure. Yes technically Roger does that, but having watched Floyd fight the last couple of years since he and his father have been talking again you can Senior's hands all over the fight plan bluprints that Floyd brings into the ring.

Also take a look at the Mosley fight after the 2nd round when Floyd was hurt back in his corner he aint listening to Roger more looking over at his father in the fron row to listen to what he is saying.

I think some craziness for sure comes out of Senior's mouth but I would say that a lot of it his endorsed by Floyd.
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