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Cshel86
I don't know about the rest of the boxing fans out there, but waiting for two big names to save the sport, is killing it. Some fighters are depending on "The Big Fight" before they start to step on the gas. Whatever happened to "everybody fighting everybody"? I was proud to be a boxing fan in the era of De La Hoya, Trinidad, Vargas, Wright, Forrest, Mosley, Mayorga, Hopkins, Taylor, etc. They all fought each other and convincingly worked their way towards big fights, and gave fans something to talk about.

We now have a nearly failed 140 lb division that was very promising, a shakey Welterweight division (still a lot of money in it though) and inexperienced/relatively unknown fighters trying to cash out by begging for fights with the big name fighters. Again, when the two big names hang 'em up, where will the sport be? Will we be proud to watch fighters who stepped it up and earned the top spot, or will we be stuck with guys who got recognized by default?
caneman
QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 22 2011, 12:07 PM) *
I don't know about the rest of the boxing fans out there, but waiting for two big names to save the sport, is killing it. Some fighters are depending on "The Big Fight" before they start to step on the gas. Whatever happened to "everybody fighting everybody"? I was proud to be a boxing fan in the era of De La Hoya, Trinidad, Vargas, Wright, Forrest, Mosley, Mayorga, Hopkins, Taylor, etc. They all fought each other and convincingly worked their way towards big fights, and gave fans something to talk about.

We now have a nearly failed 140 lb division that was very promising, a shakey Welterweight division (still a lot of money in it though) and inexperienced/relatively unknown fighters trying to cash out by begging for fights with the big name fighters. Again, when the two big names hang 'em up, where will the sport be? Will we be proud to watch fighters who stepped it up and earned the top spot, or will we be stuck with guys who got recognized by default?



All depends...funny, I mean this could about fall right under my ABC thread cause they have so much to do with it! Until the best fight the best regularly, it's a mess and then there's the subject of judges and promoters and so much more!
caneman
sorry DP
Eighty88Eight
Boxing is going the way of the dodo, is where it's going. I don't think there has ever been a time when there has been less marketable talent in boxing. Aside from Pac and Mayweather, can anybody generate 300,000 buys in the USA? I'm not sure anybody can, and the guys that have a shot at that number (Cotto, Marquez against a name opponent) are damaged goods. What's worse is that there really isn't anybody on the horizon that lights the world on fire.
Cshel86
Yeah these sanctioning bodies are doing what they want to do, and putting these "mandatories"(relatively unknown fighters) on the schedule for "mandatory reasons" obviously. Another point that was brought up concerned the amount of buys that these guys aren't capable of producing, which makes for a devastating situation in the sport. 300,000 is a lot of buys...especially for fighters who cant even fill up a 2000 seat venue. The older fighters/possibly damaged goods fighters are still carrying the load and putting their health on the line at the same time, while the inexperienced/no-seat filling fighters beg for a "big fight". When Erik Morales wiggled his way back in and became the first fighter in this "promising" 140 lb division to headline a PPV in years, that let me know everything that I needed to know about where the sport was going. The fight was great by the way...
PlayaPartner
It is mostly due to Promoters. If a promoter will only let his fighters fight, fighters under the same promotional banner you will have lack luster talent. Some promoters need to retire they are 80 plus years old and need to go the way of the dinosaurs.
gravytrain
whatever makes the most sense for promoters is where boxing is going. i think that after Mayweather and Pac are gone the top earner spot will be going to hype jobs that got their career created and never really put the work in. look at a fighter like Alvarez, people say his quality of opposition is going to improve but why do that when he's going to get paid and get dates on HBO anyway? the fans aren't going to do anything, they didn't stop Berto from making a million dollars to fight cans.

EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 22 2011, 01:39 PM) *
whatever makes the most sense for promoters is where boxing is going. i think that after Mayweather and Pac are gone the top earner spot will be going to hype jobs that got their career created and never really put the work in. look at a fighter like Alvarez, people say his quality of opposition is going to improve but why do that when he's going to get paid and get dates on HBO anyway? the fans aren't going to do anything, they didn't stop Berto from making a million dollars to fight cans.


Berto and Alvarez are entirely different animals. Alvarez actually can fill a stadium and sell out shows, Berto was unknown by a lot of casual fans and only got fights on HBO because of Haymon. Greenberg is gone and I'm hoping that with that so are the days of trading HBO boxing dates for securing Lady Gaga and other pop star concerts on HBO.

Alvarez is only 21 and It would be wrong for GBP to rush this kid into a fight that he's not ready for. He has easily 10 years in the game left and had a very limited amateur career, I would hate to see him end up like Vargas.

I think Gomez is a step up for him, he's durable and has some skills(looked pretty good against Sotto-Karras). I'd like to see him in there with someone like Mosley(someone experienced with a name) or even K9 next and then look for the winner of Vanes v Angulo. After those 2 fights i think he's ready for Cotto/Margarito winner.

I think right now GBP has three potential stars to carry the sport after Floyd and Manny(Khan, Ortiz, Alvarez). I think all of them can make for good fights against each other.

If Top Rank and GBP are really serious about matching their fighters(hasn't happened yet, not any of their good crop at least) then I think boxing will be just fine.

If good fighters fight other good fighters the sport can turn itself around. GBP has a good young stable and it seems like they are willing to match their young(er) fighters tough(Guerrero vs Maidana)(Ortiz vs Berto)(Khan vs Maidana)(Deleon vs Broner) and that's what boxing needs.
Cshel86
QUOTE (PlayaPartner @ Aug 22 2011, 02:17 PM) *
It is mostly due to Promoters. If a promoter will only let his fighters fight, fighters under the same promotional banner you will have lack luster talent. Some promoters need to retire they are 80 plus years old and need to go the way of the dinosaurs.

laugh.gif
Cshel86
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 22 2011, 02:39 PM) *
whatever makes the most sense for promoters is where boxing is going. i think that after Mayweather and Pac are gone the top earner spot will be going to hype jobs that got their career created and never really put the work in. look at a fighter like Alvarez, people say his quality of opposition is going to improve but why do that when he's going to get paid and get dates on HBO anyway? the fans aren't going to do anything, they didn't stop Berto from making a million dollars to fight cans.

I can truly understand promoters wanting to look out for themselves and make sure that their cash cow(s) retains their marketability. I'm believe Im more upset with the fact that these fighters lack personality, and when they are matched against quality opposition that will raise their stock, they lay an egg (Alexander/Bradley) (Alexander/Matthysse) (Khan/Judah). The promoter can only do so such, but if the fighter isn't giving the promoter something to "promote", then that fighter deserves to fight tomato cans and beg for big fights. I was a ashamed at how Ortiz proved to the world that this new wave of attention he is getting is too much for him. How can you sit there and let your opponent help you to promote yourself during a Face-Off? Though I feel this way about Ortiz and that Face-Off, he is the only young star that I feel deserves this shot right about now...everybody else still has work to do.
Cshel86
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 22 2011, 03:52 PM) *
Berto and Alvarez are entirely different animals. Alvarez actually can fill a stadium and sell out shows, Berto was unknown by a lot of casual fans and only got fights on HBO because of Haymon. Greenberg is gone and I'm hoping that with that so are the days of trading HBO boxing dates for securing Lady Gaga and other pop star concerts on HBO.

Alvarez is only 21 and It would be wrong for GBP to rush this kid into a fight that he's not ready for. He has easily 10 years in the game left and had a very limited amateur career, I would hate to see him end up like Vargas.

I think Gomez is a step up for him, he's durable and has some skills(looked pretty good against Sotto-Karras). I'd like to see him in there with someone like Mosley(someone experienced with a name) or even K9 next and then look for the winner of Vanes v Angulo. After those 2 fights i think he's ready for Cotto/Margarito winner.

I think right now GBP has three potential stars to carry the sport after Floyd and Manny(Khan, Ortiz, Alvarez). I think all of them can make for good fights against each other.

If Top Rank and GBP are really serious about matching their fighters(hasn't happened yet, not any of their good crop at least) then I think boxing will be just fine.

If good fighters fight other good fighters the sport can turn itself around. GBP has a good young stable and it seems like they are willing to match their young(er) fighters tough(Guerrero vs Maidana)(Ortiz vs Berto)(Khan vs Maidana)(Deleon vs Broner) and that's what boxing needs.

Oh yeah I forgot how young and somewhat inexperienced Vargas was when he started landing big fights. Dude had a little over 20 pro fights, but he was always a game fighter...win or lose. I think that me and you were discussing a possible Khan/Ortiz fight coming out of all this, on another thread not too long ago. Those are the only star worthy guys out there right about now...Khan, Ortiz, Alvarez, Guerrero, Maidana (will always be the man to test your heart against), and Berto (when he gets his shit together and get back in the mix).
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 22 2011, 03:52 PM) *
Berto and Alvarez are entirely different animals. Alvarez actually can fill a stadium and sell out shows, Berto was unknown by a lot of casual fans and only got fights on HBO because of Haymon. Greenberg is gone and I'm hoping that with that so are the days of trading HBO boxing dates for securing Lady Gaga and other pop star concerts on HBO.

Alvarez is only 21 and It would be wrong for GBP to rush this kid into a fight that he's not ready for. He has easily 10 years in the game left and had a very limited amateur career, I would hate to see him end up like Vargas.

I think Gomez is a step up for him, he's durable and has some skills(looked pretty good against Sotto-Karras). I'd like to see him in there with someone like Mosley(someone experienced with a name) or even K9 next and then look for the winner of Vanes v Angulo. After those 2 fights i think he's ready for Cotto/Margarito winner.

I think right now GBP has three potential stars to carry the sport after Floyd and Manny(Khan, Ortiz, Alvarez). I think all of them can make for good fights against each other.

If Top Rank and GBP are really serious about matching their fighters(hasn't happened yet, not any of their good crop at least) then I think boxing will be just fine.

If good fighters fight other good fighters the sport can turn itself around. GBP has a good young stable and it seems like they are willing to match their young(er) fighters tough(Guerrero vs Maidana)(Ortiz vs Berto)(Khan vs Maidana)(Deleon vs Broner) and that's what boxing needs.


would Alvarez be getting this much attention without GBP having such an interest in him? you can't forget that he'll be headlining his own PPV within his next few fights either. Schaefer already called it and said Mayorga was a possible opponent. what's the real difference between Alvarez and Berto? they're both hype jobs, different people just created them. and both of these cats has the benefit of working with someone that's in deep with HBO.

why would GBP have to change anything with Alvarez? fighters with clout can already move up and get a paper title or stay in a division while staying away from dangerous fighters. that's already happening. what would make anyone thinking that years down the line GBP is going to want to risk the heir to the throne when he'll most likely be headlining successful HBO PPVs? boxing hasn't been that way for awhile.
checkleft
It's all about what the promoters want, if you work hard to get to the top without a reputable promoter you end up like sergio Martinez. No one will put there fighters in with you
EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 22 2011, 06:27 PM) *
would Alvarez be getting this much attention without GBP having such an interest in him? you can't forget that he'll be headlining his own PPV within his next few fights either. Schaefer already called it and said Mayorga was a possible opponent. what's the real difference between Alvarez and Berto? they're both hype jobs, different people just created them. and both of these cats has the benefit of working with someone that's in deep with HBO.

why would GBP have to change anything with Alvarez? fighters with clout can already move up and get a paper title or stay in a division while staying away from dangerous fighters. that's already happening. what would make anyone thinking that years down the line GBP is going to want to risk the heir to the throne when he'll most likely be headlining successful HBO PPVs? boxing hasn't been that way for awhile.


Actually in Mexico he was selling out huge stadiums without GBP. I think a Mayorga fight would be ok actually. He's 21 i don't get what the rush is, Cotto just fought Mayorga and it took him 12 rounds to get rid of him. Is Cotto all hype now? I think you'll see Alvarez in their tough, just not yet. Maybe a year or two. I still regard him as a prospect, a work in progress. Vanes and Angulo are suppose to be fighting in an eliminator, he will have to vacate and at that point should be looked down on. Rhodes was his mandatory and he beat the hell out of him. This isn't 130, it's 154 and people can get seriously hurt. He's worth a lot of money and there is no reason to move him any faster than he's being moved. Look what Trinidad did to David Reid and Fernando Vargas
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 22 2011, 06:43 PM) *
Actually in Mexico he was selling out huge stadiums without GBP. I think a Mayorga fight would be ok actually. He's 21 i don't get what the rush is, Cotto just fought Mayorga and it took him 12 rounds to get rid of him. Is Cotto all hype now? I think you'll see Alvarez in their tough, just not yet. Maybe a year or two. I still regard him as a prospect, a work in progress. Vanes and Angulo are suppose to be fighting in an eliminator, he will have to vacate and at that point should be looked down on. Rhodes was his mandatory and he beat the hell out of him. This isn't 130, it's 154 and people can get seriously hurt. He's worth a lot of money and there is no reason to move him any faster than he's being moved. Look what Trinidad did to David Reid and Fernando Vargas


how many dates on American networks did he get before he got with GBP? and is this dude vs Mayorga good for a PPV? we're talking about a PPV Canelo will be the A side of, not an undercard fight. and Cotto isn't all hype, he's all shot. how many prospects get their own venue for an undercard fight? i can't think of any. and if he does vacate what's really going to happen? that's not going to keep him from any PPVs, he can just say he outgrew the division then wait in the MW division until the WBC can get him another title. the WBC hasn't exactly been free of controversy lately so that eliminator doesn't mean much to me right now.

i don't think there's any denying that Canelo has got some favorable treatment and with how boxing has been slipping he can keep getting that treatment until he retires. if he gets good numbers on his upcoming PPVs i doubt he'll ever have his level of competition raised too much.
Fitz
I agree with what's being said about Alvarez should not be rushed, he has a limited amateur career and should come along slowly, but all of that gets thrown out the window when you decide to pick up one of the major world titles. That's the only problem.
When you pick up a major title, you need to pick up competition, if you want a fighter to keep learning and bringing him up slowly, don't put him in a world title fight. That's the only thing.
EAlbian
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 22 2011, 06:56 PM) *
how many dates on American networks did he get before he got with GBP? and is this dude vs Mayorga good for a PPV? we're talking about a PPV Canelo will be the A side of, not an undercard fight. and Cotto isn't all hype, he's all shot. how many prospects get their own venue for an undercard fight? i can't think of any. and if he does vacate what's really going to happen? that's not going to keep him from any PPVs, he can just say he outgrew the division then wait in the MW division until the WBC can get him another title. the WBC hasn't exactly been free of controversy lately so that eliminator doesn't mean much to me right now.

i don't think there's any denying that Canelo has got some favorable treatment and with how boxing has been slipping he can keep getting that treatment until he retires. if he gets good numbers on his upcoming PPVs i doubt he'll ever have his level of competition raised too much.


I guess it's just kind of a glass half empty view on stuff that I don't wish to take. He was 19 at the time with no amateur experience and gained the following, its because of what people saw in him that he's able to command these wages and opportunities. was it fair that Ray Leonard got 1mill for his pro debut while Pryor(who was thought to be just as good of an amateur) got like $800? Life isn't always fair and neither is boxing. De La Hoya put Ortiz in tough with Maidana when he was suppose to be his next golden ticket, why should Alvarez be different.

It's a known fact that Mexicans spend money on boxing and he's a star there, take it up with Mexico. Who should he be fighting in your opinion?
EAlbian
QUOTE (Fitz @ Aug 22 2011, 07:06 PM) *
I agree with what's being said about Alvarez should not be rushed, he has a limited amateur career and should come along slowly, but all of that gets thrown out the window when you decide to pick up one of the major world titles. That's the only problem.
When you pick up a major title, you need to pick up competition, if you want a fighter to keep learning and bringing him up slowly, don't put him in a world title fight. That's the only thing.


I understand that, but he's fighting his mandatories(so far) can't knock him till he ducks/vacates, thats all i'm saying
STEVENSKI
One thing that people forget is that PBF was a name fighter who neverhad a PPV fight until the Gatti one. Even then he was clearly the B side & could not sell out a arena in his next fight.

Fighters take time to become stars in their sport & it usually requires beating a famous fighter who is washed up to start making that transition from gifted athlete to being able to carry a PPV event.

Look at Ward. A Olympic gold medallist who no one knows & no one ever will know as he is fighting fighters no one has heard of outside boxing fans. This guy should be a superstar at least in America due to his gold medal performance but he is not. I would wagwer this is due to him being in a mainly European division.

One thing I will give Europe is that they promote their fighters well & build a loyal following that will sell out arenas.

Look at Kessler, Calzaghe, Froch, Khan, The Klit bros etc. They may not be "cool" or popular stateside but every one of them sells out arenas in Europe.

Why is that? I think it is because of several reasons. Big production values for the show & they build to the main event. Well matched undercards where the fighters may not be all that but they scrap in usually entertaining manner.

The US seems to reliant on site fees & PPV revenue rather than putting on a big production that will entertain fans.

A great example is the recent Klit vs Haye farce. Fight sucked but the whole production was very slick & had some humour as well. Decent card & 50,000 odd people sitting in the rain. How often does that type of thing happen in the USA? Not anymore but Tyson used to fight in the open air so why not some of the other big stars from America?
Mean Mister Mustard
Boxing is doing OK. People always worry about what will happen when the biggest stars retire, but someone always comes along and fills that void because there will always be boxing fans. They're not going to disappear. MMA is not going to severely hurt boxing. Look, MMA has been around for more than a decade and boxing is still going on strong. Moreover, some people do prefer to watch boxing than MMA, while some like to watch both. One sport is not going to suddenly drive the other out of business.

As for Canelo being a hype job; he is getting far more exposure than he has earned, but this is a business after all, and in Mexico he had a huge following, which GBP is merely exploiting. At least Alvarez is showing some promise, while JC jr could clearly be stuck with the 'hype job' label.
gravytrain
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 22 2011, 07:09 PM) *
I understand that, but he's fighting his mandatories(so far) can't knock him till he ducks/vacates, thats all i'm saying


i agree with you on that one. i can speculate but i really don't know what his career will end up like. but with how things are going for him so far and the way boxing is i really wont be surprised if he's a safe road to PPV and has handpicked opponents on PPV.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Fitz @ Aug 22 2011, 07:06 PM) *
I agree with what's being said about Alvarez should not be rushed, he has a limited amateur career and should come along slowly, but all of that gets thrown out the window when you decide to pick up one of the major world titles. That's the only problem.
When you pick up a major title, you need to pick up competition, if you want a fighter to keep learning and bringing him up slowly, don't put him in a world title fight. That's the only thing.

Yeah for him to only be 21, he has too many things going on that points him into the direction of stepping up...maybe past his level of comfort/experience. He is signed with a major promotional company that is run by one of the biggest stars in boxing, he is being promoted as being the next Oscar De La Hoya, he sells 10s of 1000s of tickets with a major fan base, and he's a champ with an exceptional fighting style. Unfortunately, he has too many good years ahead of him in boxing (as someone stated earlier), so he is gonna have to step up sometime or another...GBP cant bullshit their way through it too long. We all see what happened to the last young prospect that they prematurely crowned the "next Oscar De La Hoya". If they would've been more careful with this career early on, then he wouldn't have got his clock cleaned so soon against Maidana.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 22 2011, 08:58 PM) *
Yeah for him to only be 21, he has too many things going on that points him into the direction of stepping up...maybe past his level of comfort/experience. He is signed with a major promotional company that is run by one of the biggest stars in boxing, he is being promoted as being the next Oscar De La Hoya, he sells 10s of 1000s of tickets with a major fan base, and he's a champ with an exceptional fighting style. Unfortunately, he has too many good years ahead of him in boxing (as someone stated earlier), so he is gonna have to step up sometime or another...GBP cant bullshit their way through it too long. We all see what happened to the last young prospect that they prematurely crowned the "next Oscar De La Hoya". If they would've been more careful with this career early on, then he wouldn't have got his clock cleaned so soon against Maidana.




I think the difference bewteen Alvarez and say Chavez Jr is you can see with Saul there is room for improvement and he can develop, withChavez Jr you get the feeling that he's reached his peak and probably can't get much better.

That's why I'm cool with Alvarez being moved along a bit slower. I just wished they hadn't put a damn trinket around his waist. That is a target on his back that he didn't need at this stage in his career. But at the time GBP's talent pool was looking a bit shallow so they went ahead and did it anyway.

That's my take on it anyway.
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 22 2011, 09:22 PM) *
I think the difference bewteen Alvarez and say Chavez Jr is you can see with Saul there is room for improvement and he can develop, withChavez Jr you get the feeling that he's reached his peak and probably can't get much better.

That's why I'm cool with Alvarez being moved along a bit slower. I just wished they hadn't put a damn trinket around his waist. That is a target on his back that he didn't need at this stage in his career. But at the time GBP's talent pool was looking a bit shallow so they went ahead and did it anyway.

That's my take on it anyway.


they're moving him slow when it comes to opposition but his career itself is going way too fast. people talk about this guy like he's just been on BAD a couple times. he already has a title, has his own venue for a fight on Mayweather's undercard and will be headlining his own PPV within his next few fights.
Cshel86
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 22 2011, 09:22 PM) *
I think the difference bewteen Alvarez and say Chavez Jr is you can see with Saul there is room for improvement and he can develop, withChavez Jr you get the feeling that he's reached his peak and probably can't get much better.

That's why I'm cool with Alvarez being moved along a bit slower. I just wished they hadn't put a damn trinket around his waist. That is a target on his back that he didn't need at this stage in his career. But at the time GBP's talent pool was looking a bit shallow so they went ahead and did it anyway.

That's my take on it anyway.

Yes he does have room to grow, but like you stated, that belt around his waist put a target on his back in the same breath. Who cares about Chavez Jr. (well I dont)...he can peak , underachieve, start a record label, or whatever his imagination whips up...I dont think ever think I'll be a fan of his. GBP's options for Alvarez were a one-way street imo. He sells too many tickets and has a crazy fan base, sort of a gift and a curse. As jacked up as boxing is, along with some of these underachieving new stars, a fighter that sells crazy tickets is almost obsolete. Im sure Oscar and Shaeffer (spell check) has plans on when to step on the gas or hit the brakes with Alvarez, since they failed the test with the guinea pig Ortiz early in his career.
Jack 1000
With Mayweather and Pacquiao likely to stay in boxing only a few more years, I think promoters should focus more on working with each other to produce the best fights based on quality of opposition, activity, and ring record. Boxing needs to stop waiting for the Superstar to fight once a year. Fans and scribes get too impatient with that and for good reason.

Work on some sort of tournament to involve the fans in each division with elimination matches. Experiment with innovations. Use the Internet and Digital Cable/Dish boxes to set up an optional polling system, getting people to tune in to a "Question of the Week" incorporated into specials building up the fighters and fights. Explain to young people how fights are scored and use this technology to allow them to score the fights at home. (Like Verses tried.) I would propose a return for some hot prospects evenly matched say, every other week or so on a commercial network. If the fighters are active and exciting, the fan-base will build. However, once a year for these fading stars at $60 a shot on PPV, is not going to draw new networks or younger fan interest.

Fighters need to fight often, against reasonably matched opposition, where there is always a hint of doubt as to who will win. In the mid 80's or so, Mike Tyson was fighting literally every other week on ESPN and some early fights on ABC sports. People subscribed to HBO in DROVES because Tyson in his prime was a dominate fighter who provided KO excitement most of the time and it drew fans to boxing, because there is was an element about Mike that neither Floyd or Manny understand, especially Floyd. And that is, you have to fight frequently and you have to be accessible to as many homes as possible. Network commercial TV does that. PPV alienates the viewer by forcing them to pay up-front for fights that may not at all be competitive. PPV also alienates the fans, forcing them to pay very expensive amounts of money for a mediocre undercard, and often terrible main event. At least in MMA, Dana Whites cards are most often more competitive top-to-bottom, than PPV boxing cards.

As PPV and premium channel rates continue to push so many people on the verge of reducing services or cutting cable TV/Satellite/or U-Verse altogether, there's going to come a time when there will no longer be a Manny and Floyd to secure multi-millions for promoters and matchmakers. At that point in time, boxing has to look more at up-and comers who might be willing to fight often, produce action , and get younger generations interested again. Get younger people involved, and some big banger KO artists, back on commercial TV that kids would like to see. Use weekly or bi-weekly stories and snibbits about the lives of the fighters, similar to HBO's 24/7 series. Don't just wait for a star to fight once a year.

It looks like Delahoya will soon be the Don King and Bob Arum of big time boxing. But it is doubtful that he will do any of the things mentioned above. What's up with the latest on Dan Rafael and HBO?

Jack
Cshel86
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 23 2011, 12:14 AM) *
With Mayweather and Pacquiao likely to stay in boxing only a few more years, I think promoters should focus more on working with each other to produce the best fights based on quality of opposition, activity, and ring record. Boxing needs to stop waiting for the Superstar to fight once a year. Fans and scribes get too impatient with that and for good reason.

Work on some sort of tournament to involve the fans in each division with elimination matches. Experiment with innovations. Use the Internet and Digital Cable/Dish boxes to set up an optional polling system, getting people to tune in to a "Question of the Week" incorporated into specials building up the fighters and fights. Explain to young people how fights are scored and use this technology to allow them to score the fights at home. (Like Verses tried.) I would propose a return for some hot prospects evenly matched say, every other week or so on a commercial network. If the fighters are active and exciting, the fan-base will build. However, once a year for these fading stars at $60 a shot on PPV, is not going to draw new networks or younger fan interest.

Fighters need to fight often, against reasonably matched opposition, where there is always a hint of doubt as to who will win. In the mid 80's or so, Mike Tyson was fighting literally every other week on ESPN and some early fights on ABC sports. People subscribed to HBO in DROVES because Tyson in his prime was a dominate fighter who provided KO excitement most of the time and it drew fans to boxing, because there is was an element about Mike that neither Floyd or Manny understand, especially Floyd. And that is, you have to fight frequently and you have to be accessible to as many homes as possible. Network commercial TV does that. PPV alienates the viewer by forcing them to pay up-front for fights that may not at all be competitive. PPV also alienates the fans, forcing them to pay very expensive amounts of money for a mediocre undercard, and often terrible main event. At least in MMA, Dana Whites cards are most often more competitive top-to-bottom, than PPV boxing cards.

As PPV and premium channel rates continue to push so many people on the verge of reducing services or cutting cable TV/Satellite/or U-Verse altogether, there's going to come a time when there will no longer be a Manny and Floyd to secure multi-millions for promoters and matchmakers. At that point in time, boxing has to look more at up-and comers who might be willing to fight often, produce action , and get younger generations interested again. Get younger people involved, and some big banger KO artists, back on commercial TV that kids would like to see. Use weekly or bi-weekly stories and snibbits about the lives of the fighters, similar to HBO's 24/7 series. Don't just wait for a star to fight once a year.

It looks like Delahoya will soon be the Don King and Bob Arum of big time boxing. But it is doubtful that he will do any of the things mentioned above. What's up with the latest on Dan Rafael and HBO?

Jack

These are great suggestions, more than I would've came up with. At this point, all boxing fans can do is wait, wait, wait. Waiting for these fights, are frustrating, and it becomes more frustrating when there are only two big attractions in the sport, and the remainder of fighters just sit around and wait in the wind for a miracle to happen.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 23 2011, 12:14 AM) *
It looks like Delahoya will soon be the Don King and Bob Arum of big time boxing. But it is doubtful that he will do any of the things mentioned above. What's up with the latest on Dan Rafael and HBO?

Jack


DLH wont do anything like that. i do think he could put on some good fights if his stable is deep enough. i don't really see much changing in boxing though, the people running it are comfortable with how it's. Vegas gets its money from having the big fights there, HBO gets its money from PPVs and the promoter gets paid from being in deep with HBO and the MGM.
and the NEW
I'm not sure where the lack of stars are, let's remember Mayweather and Pac never became big stars until well into their careers, infact right towards the ends. This is a pretty standard pattern, Jack Dempsey didn't generate million dollar gates until his last few fights.

Guys like Donaire, Gamboa, Bam Bam Rios, Khan, Canelo and Ward could all become stars if they keep going the way they are and all of them have many years left of their primes.

Like in a game of soccer (the world game), there isn't enough ball for too many stars, the same applies to boxing. It took for the De La Hoyas and Roy Jones Jrs to go downhill/retire for Mayweather and Pac to emerge, it will take these guys to fade away for the younger generation to get the limelight.

But correct in that more behind the scenes type of things like 24/7 or fightcamp 360 can only benefit.

Ultimately though, a guy like DLH is going to have to swoop in, get most of the talent in boxing and declare a belt like 'the ring' as the only true belt, for boxing to really take off to a new level once more.
daprofessor
sad watching all the chicken littles and sheeple walk off the cliff one by one.

boxing is fine. good fights/fighters....it all happens in waves. sitting around craving the days of old....u miss all that is going on right in front of ur eyes.

it's like the song says....."these-are-the-good-times...."

Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Aug 24 2011, 03:15 PM) *
sad watching all the chicken littles and sheeple walk off the cliff one by one.

boxing is fine. good fights/fighters....it all happens in waves. sitting around craving the days of old....u miss all that is going on right in front of ur eyes.

it's like the song says....."these-are-the-good-times...."


Boxing is fine?!

jlupi
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 22 2011, 01:16 PM) *
Boxing is going the way of the dodo, is where it's going.



esp in the US where we have exactly 1 native fighter (who is in his mid 30s) who can fill a venue.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (jlupi @ Aug 24 2011, 03:46 PM) *
esp in the US where we have exactly 1 native fighter (who is in his mid 30s) who can fill a venue.


tim bradley can't even fill his jock strap, let alone a venue.
jlupi
tim bradley can't even fill his jock strap>>>>

I wouldn't know
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (jlupi @ Aug 24 2011, 05:15 PM) *
tim bradley can't even fill his jock strap>>>>

I wouldn't know


well if he can't fill your mouth, he certainly can't fill a jock strap
daprofessor
QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 24 2011, 03:36 PM) *
Boxing is fine?!



with weekly televised shows....and great fights on those shows...yes.
Method
I think HBO has been trying to hype up new fighters and hand them crowns to back up the hype - Jermain Taylor, Chad Dawson, even Bojado are GLARING examples.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 24 2011, 06:14 PM) *
I think HBO has been trying to hype up new fighters and hand them crowns to back up the hype - Jermain Taylor, Chad Dawson, even Bojado are GLARING examples.


I agree, remember this bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pet7vZPV4Q

HBO needs to build their fighters by putting them in tough, cream rises to top. stars will make themselves. HBO I hope is serious about putting on a prospect series like shobox
daprofessor
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 24 2011, 06:45 PM) *
I agree, remember this bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pet7vZPV4Q

HBO needs to build their fighters by putting them in tough, cream rises to top. stars will make themselves. HBO I hope is serious about putting on a prospect series like shobox


shobox develops them....hbo steals them.

look at andre ward as the prime example. they sign him out of the olympics...and try and dictate who he should fight and all that. he gets dropped...they question him and his ability. ward and his ppl opted out of his hbo contract and chose to fly under the radar. best thing they could have ever done because he was able to pick and choose his opponents so that he could develop properly at his own pace. now, he's ready for the big time. it doesn't always work that way...but hbo doesn't know how to build champions. they should leave that to the professionals and just stick to putting on the best available fights like showtime does.
BoxingFan86
I'm too ashamed to reveal the answer, so y'all already know where I stand.
EAlbian
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Aug 24 2011, 07:48 PM) *
shobox develops them....hbo steals them.

look at andre ward as the prime example. they sign him out of the olympics...and try and dictate who he should fight and all that. he gets dropped...they question him and his ability. ward and his ppl opted out of his hbo contract and chose to fly under the radar. best thing they could have ever done because he was able to pick and choose his opponents so that he could develop properly at his own pace. now, he's ready for the big time. it doesn't always work that way...but hbo doesn't know how to build champions. they should leave that to the professionals and just stick to putting on the best available fights like showtime does.


Yea i can agree with that but what i don't like is that HBO pays the undeveloped guys way too much money to fight easy competition instead of matching them tough and letting the cream rise to the top. Showtime matches its fighters tough, HBO needs to drop HBO after dark or change the format to something similar to Shobox.

Ward is a good example but at the same time he was still very untested(he had a Miranda win) at the beginning of the super six and not expected to do nearly as well as he has. He was a 6-1 underdog against Kessler.
daprofessor
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 01:20 PM) *
Yea i can agree with that but what i don't like is that HBO pays the undeveloped guys way too much money to fight easy competition instead of matching them tough and letting the cream rise to the top. Showtime matches its fighters tough, HBO needs to drop HBO after dark or change the format to something similar to Shobox.

Ward is a good example but at the same time he was still very untested(he had a Miranda win) at the beginning of the super six and not expected to do nearly as well as he has. He was a 6-1 underdog against Kessler.


i have no problem with fighters being paid well. the overwhelming majority are underpaid. i do think that hbo should leave the matchmaking to the matchmakers.

ward was untested to those who weren't in the know. i saw enough of him out here in cali to know that he would beat kessler...and that he would win this tournament.
EAlbian
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Aug 25 2011, 06:52 PM) *
i have no problem with fighters being paid well. the overwhelming majority are underpaid. i do think that hbo should leave the matchmaking to the matchmakers.

ward was untested to those who weren't in the know. i saw enough of him out here in cali to know that he would beat kessler...and that he would win this tournament.


haha, you and me both bro. won $450 on the Ward/Kessler fight, knew Ward's lateral movement would fuck the robot up.

I have no problem with fighters getting paid for something thats worth it but the fights HBO has been putting on are nowhere near what the fighters deserve to get paid
gravytrain
HBO has wasted money on fights and fighters. Berto has never been a draw and he got paid way too much to fight cats outside the top 10. HBO ended up spending about 5 mil on Bradley and Alexander for them to fight and they honestly haven't had much of a return on it, they both got way too good of deals. Showtime consistently puts on a better show with a smaller budget, HBO eats up it's budget doing deals for people. they need to tell Haymon and everyone else to kick rocks, if fighters want HBO money and exposure they need to start delivering something.
Cshel86
I threatened to cancel my cable with my last provider after the Bradley/Alexander fight, so they gave me HBO free for 6 months laugh.gif . Needless to say, most of those fights that were aired in that 6 month time frame were poo-poo (with the exception of Berto/Ortiz), so I played my cards right. Some of the undercards were better than the main events, which was somewhat of a relief. The matchmaking does need to be left to the matchmakers, instead of the Alphabet boys (sanctioning bodies), that's how we end up getting stuck with these unknown "mandatories" fighting on HBO.
Eighty88Eight
it's sad how small boxing has become outside of the big two. nary a fight worth caring about, and nary a fight at all. aside from the meaningless friday night fight shows, and some B/C level prospects like Rios and Gamboa that I don't yet give a shit about, and some old farts like Hopkins, there is nothing worth getting excited about in boxing. And none of it is worth getting TOO excited about regardless. I'll tell you where this sport is going... it's going outside of America's borders, where people still care about their homegrown fighters. This is an MMA country.

Cshel86
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 25 2011, 11:13 PM) *
HBO has wasted money on fights and fighters. Berto has never been a draw and he got paid way too much to fight cats outside the top 10. HBO ended up spending about 5 mil on Bradley and Alexander for them to fight and they honestly haven't had much of a return on it, they both got way too good of deals. Showtime consistently puts on a better show with a smaller budget, HBO eats up it's budget doing deals for people. they need to tell Haymon and everyone else to kick rocks, if fighters want HBO money and exposure they need to start delivering something.

Man I agree with your statement about Showtime putting on better fights than HBO. HBO's PPVs are better than Showtime's (in my opinion), but Boxing After Dark is slipping. The Agbeko/Mares fight was entertaining and controversial at the same time. When I watch BAD, all I can hope for is the tomato cans to pull off an upset.
Seek
Of the fights left this year that i'm interested in I have to pay $50/$60 for. Mayweather Ortiz, Pacquiao Marquez and Cotto Margarito. Oh yeah and Bernard Hopkins but I doubt i'll be paying for that. Ward Froch and Mares Agbeko rematch are the only ones for free. What a terrible way to end the year. . . .
daprofessor
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 25 2011, 10:57 PM) *
He hasn't won yet. Let's not start with the FMJ dance and count everybody that he hasn't bothered to fight a victory.


ward is going to school froch. anything can happen in a fight...but that is pretty much a done deal. froch brings nothing to the table that ward hasn't already shown he can deal with. the contract has been signed....they will fight.....ward will win.
daprofessor
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 25 2011, 11:03 PM) *
haha, you and me both bro. won $450 on the Ward/Kessler fight, knew Ward's lateral movement would fuck the robot up.

I have no problem with fighters getting paid for something thats worth it but the fights HBO has been putting on are nowhere near what the fighters deserve to get paid


ur going to have to be more specific on the hbo fights. sure, some fights have not been the best....but i don't think anyone fighting on the network is overpaid by any means.
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