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Allmenjoi8
If Vicious Victor Ortiz wins the fight on September 17th it will be sports biggest upsets ever. He will no doubt be the top guy for a VERY long time. Victor will make his own rules and be a money fight for anyone who wants to fight him. He could pick to fight Khan or Pac, hell even another rematch with Marcos M. His future will be in his own hands. But if he loses then what? Will his stock go down or will Khan want to fight him or Pac? Will he get the big names fights? Everyone knows that if May loses that Pac fight is down the toilet and he can just retire because no one will care to see him fight. That 0 is keeping people interested. But Ortiz is young, how will he keep people interested in seeing him fight if he loses to May?
Depending on how he loses (if he does) will determine his future. If he gives May all he can handle then people will respect him, being beaten by May is nothing to cry about. I like Victor, he has a nice story and I like his cockiness. Its appealing and sales tickets. I am pulling for MJ but I have respect for Victor, I just hope the boxing world does too after Sep 17th. Any thoughts?
AussieLad
I thought facing Floyd was a pretty foolish move for a newly minted champ like Ortiz. Basically giving away the belt becuase he has almost zero chance of beating floyd. If he had cemented himself as champ (the old saying that your not a champ until you have defended the belt at least once) with a couple of defences, i wouldnt have had so much of an issue with this fight. But as it stands this smells like a cynical belt grab from floyds side

Maybe if he had a couple of defences he could have made some money. Maybe not as much in the short term, as pac and floyd are PPV monsters, but he probably would have made more money in the long run with less 'Mission Impossible' matches

I give Ortiz credit in going for the gold, but he's pushing shit up hill in this one. Hopefully lightning strikes and he manages to seperate floyd from his senses
Eighty88Eight
It will not be the biggest upset in sports ever. It will not be the biggest upset in boxing ever. It will not be the biggest upset in boxing this year. It'll just be the loudest. Floyd's not unbeatable, he's been fought well before, he's a bit older now and he may theoretically be more vulnerable. I doubt we see Floyd standing in front of Ortiz in this fight, I think we'll see him ready to get on the back foot and box if he runs into a determined young foe early on. Ortiz needs to be fearless and relentless with the attitude that he wants to kill Mayweather in the ring. If he can fight with that attitude for 12 rounds, he can win. Mayweather isn't accustomed to punishment, and he'll quit if things get too rough.

Having said that, I don't think it'll happen. 5-1 seem like appropriate odds.

The bad scenario for Ortiz here would be a humiliating loss. Another scenario would be that he gets badly broken down over the course of the fight, and because he and Garcia are eager to show he is not a coward, he may fight too courageously for his own good. Nobody seriously see's him winning this fight, so if he just fights to expectations -- that he will provide Mayweather a good test run for the Pacquiao fight next year -- then he can hopefully get another good pay day, against Khan, a rematch with Berto, or whoever. This could very well turn out like Jones-Tarver I as well, which would basically mean a victory for Ortiz.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
I think Victor will have a chance to go away and write poetry.
Fitz
QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 23 2011, 11:42 AM) *
If Vicious Victor Ortiz wins the fight on September 17th it will be sports biggest upsets ever. He will no doubt be the top guy for a VERY long time. Victor will make his own rules and be a money fight for anyone who wants to fight him. He could pick to fight Khan or Pac, hell even another rematch with Marcos M. His future will be in his own hands. But if he loses then what? Will his stock go down or will Khan want to fight him or Pac? Will he get the big names fights? Everyone knows that if May loses that Pac fight is down the toilet and he can just retire because no one will care to see him fight. That 0 is keeping people interested. But Ortiz is young, how will he keep people interested in seeing him fight if he loses to May?
Depending on how he loses (if he does) will determine his future. If he gives May all he can handle then people will respect him, being beaten by May is nothing to cry about. I like Victor, he has a nice story and I like his cockiness. Its appealing and sales tickets. I am pulling for MJ but I have respect for Victor, I just hope the boxing world does too after Sep 17th. Any thoughts?


Haha, no it wouldn't. Not even close, haha. Ortiz is like a 6-1 underdog, there have been much bigger upsets than this.
Cshel86
He can be the 3rd "man to beat" at Welterweight. He can still fight guys like Khan, Alvarez, Maidana (again), Berto (again), Tweety Bird Bradley, or maybe even Alexander since he's the #2 WBC contender at Welterweight (Im still laughing and looking forward to losing a couple of hours of sleep behind that one). So yes, he has done more than the rest to secure his top spot at Welterweight (under May & Pac), he just needs to do himself a solid by not losing too bad against Mayweather on the 17th.
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 22 2011, 10:26 PM) *
...... Mayweather isn't accustomed to punishment, and he'll quit if things get too rough.


What planet are you on dude?.... What makes you remotely think an undefeated fighter who, when he gets in deep water, turns the fight around and breaks down his opponent like no other,.... would quit?

However, Floyed is not unbeatable for sure.

I think Ortiz' future would depend on HOW this fight plays out rather than the actuall outcome.

Here are a couple examples:
1.) Floyed beats him from round 1 to finish weather by decision or knockout = Ortiz losses belt, but not much stock. In fact, even with a loss to Floyed (as expected) he is going to raise notoriety.
2.) Floyed beats him by close decsion = this would be tremendous for Ortiz. If he could lose but look good doing it, it would still put him in postion for a championship fight or the Pac/ Floyed winner.... pending his performance till that point.
3.) Ortiz win by big KO punch at any point in the fight = Sure this would be bad for Floyed's pulling power at the negotiating table, BUT IT STILL WOULDNT DERAIL A PAC FIGHT! Remember Floyed has the draw and even though half of the people tune in just to see this type of ending for him, he would pull the ultimate comeback story and could still sell the Pac fight fairly easy. Ortiz may be known as the guy who knocked out Floyed Mayweather and caused his first loss but it would equal only too Buster and Tyson type of ending.
4.) Ortiz wins by clear decision = shock to the entire boxing community and would be the best way to create stock for himself. Though this would be far stretched to the imagination, it would ultimately be what he needs to accell his star status. Floyed, the boxer out-outboxed by the slugger Ortiz... huge for him and could easily make any fight he would want I think.

In any event of a win for Ortiz, we are looking at the fighter of the year hands down and an even brighter future for the young champion.
mgrover
if he won. mayweather would rematch and woop his ass.lightening does not strike in the same place twice or something like that. also if he won i can think of a couple of reasons that he would win, mayweathers lay offs would be taken into account and the fact hes 37. just seems that anyone that beats him now it will seem like a tainted victory.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 04:00 AM) *
if he won. mayweather would rematch and woop his ass.lightening does not strike in the same place twice or something like that. also if he won i can think of a couple of reasons that he would win, mayweathers lay offs would be taken into account and the fact hes 37. just seems that anyone that beats him now it will seem like a tainted victory.

Already rationalizing an FMJ loss? That's pretty pathetic.

My floydie gonna woop dat ass! But if he gets beat by anyone, it don't count for nothin' cause it be tainted. My Floydie gettin' real old and he haint fighted in sooo long that a loss don't even count no more. It be a tainted victory and my Floydie keep his 0 all the same, cause it aint fair.

STFU. FMJ's 34.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 06:18 AM) *
Already rationalizing an FMJ loss? That's pretty pathetic.

My floydie gonna woop dat ass! But if he gets beat by anyone, it don't count for nothin' cause it be tainted. My Floydie gettin' real old and he haint fighted in sooo long that a loss don't even count no more. It be a tainted victory and my Floydie keep his 0 all the same, cause it aint fair.

STFU. FMJ's 34.


laugh.gif
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 07:18 AM) *
Already rationalizing an FMJ loss? That's pretty pathetic.

My floydie gonna woop dat ass! But if he gets beat by anyone, it don't count for nothin' cause it be tainted. My Floydie gettin' real old and he haint fighted in sooo long that a loss don't even count no more. It be a tainted victory and my Floydie keep his 0 all the same, cause it aint fair.

STFU. FMJ's 34.


Lls!

He's talking about the retired version at 37....hahaha
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Aug 23 2011, 12:14 AM) *
What planet are you on dude?.... What makes you remotely think an undefeated fighter who, when he gets in deep water, turns the fight around and breaks down his opponent like no other,.... would quit?

However, Floyed is not unbeatable for sure.

I think Ortiz' future would depend on HOW this fight plays out rather than the actuall outcome.

Here are a couple examples:
1.) Floyed beats him from round 1 to finish weather by decision or knockout = Ortiz losses belt, but not much stock. In fact, even with a loss to Floyed (as expected) he is going to raise notoriety.
2.) Floyed beats him by close decsion = this would be tremendous for Ortiz. If he could lose but look good doing it, it would still put him in postion for a championship fight or the Pac/ Floyed winner.... pending his performance till that point.
3.) Ortiz win by big KO punch at any point in the fight = Sure this would be bad for Floyed's pulling power at the negotiating table, BUT IT STILL WOULDNT DERAIL A PAC FIGHT! Remember Floyed has the draw and even though half of the people tune in just to see this type of ending for him, he would pull the ultimate comeback story and could still sell the Pac fight fairly easy. Ortiz may be known as the guy who knocked out Floyed Mayweather and caused his first loss but it would equal only too Buster and Tyson type of ending.
4.) Ortiz wins by clear decision = shock to the entire boxing community and would be the best way to create stock for himself. Though this would be far stretched to the imagination, it would ultimately be what he needs to accell his star status. Floyed, the boxer out-outboxed by the slugger Ortiz... huge for him and could easily make any fight he would want I think.

In any event of a win for Ortiz, we are looking at the fighter of the year hands down and an even brighter future for the young champion.


Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.
Cshel86
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 07:00 AM) *
if he won. mayweather would rematch and woop his ass.lightening does not strike in the same place twice or something like that. also if he won i can think of a couple of reasons that he would win, mayweathers lay offs would be taken into account and the fact hes 37. just seems that anyone that beats him now it will seem like a tainted victory.

Mayweather's 37 years old?! Where have I been? I know his long layoffs throw the public off, but c'mon man. And yes, lightning does strike twice...ask my satellite dish on the roof. As a matter of fact, ask Shane "Nosely" who his first 4 losses came in the hands of...two people (Forrest and Wright), since you dont even know how old your favorite fighter is. You have the opportunity to look this stuff up before you post it man...

mgrover
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 23 2011, 12:18 PM) *
Already rationalizing an FMJ loss? That's pretty pathetic.

My floydie gonna woop dat ass! But if he gets beat by anyone, it don't count for nothin' cause it be tainted. My Floydie gettin' real old and he haint fighted in sooo long that a loss don't even count no more. It be a tainted victory and my Floydie keep his 0 all the same, cause it aint fair.

STFU. FMJ's 34.


i made a mistake with the age. boo fucking hoo. doesnt make my point wrong.

your just another keyboard warrior. how you guna shut me up hit me with the keyboard?

and to anybody else saying crap about hes my favourite fighter. hes far from it. am just statin what can be taken into account.

sure shane mosley lost to two people twice. but there not the same fighter. Floyd obvious lost to castillo the first fight but definitley beat him the second fight.
jimmygootz
Win: Pacquiao in May '12

Loss: Maidana (fingers-crossed)

Assuming he doesn't look like Baldomir in there and he can get to Floyd a little, I think he walks out of this fight a better boxer and more confident - even with a loss. His only real shot is a KO, which he's just not polished enough to do against the best defensive guy since sweet pea.

Mayweather could be coming apart at the seems a little; 24/7 just caught him in the nastiest verbal confrontation with Papa Mayweather. People, we have drama...believe it or not
EAlbian
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 07:32 AM) *
Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.


Floyd was hurt much worse by Corley as well as Mosley, he stayed right in the pocket and fought. Emanuel Agustus gave him a rough fight, he stayed right in there and slugged it out and stopped him. Floyd is no coward, not to say that if he had to move to survive a rough moment he wouldn't. The guy is one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen, he does what he needs to win. He's never quit, the guy broke his hand took a knee and won the fight with one hand. Obviously you need to spend a little youtube time revisiting the guys career, at least boxrec time to realize he's 42-0 with no losses, obviously he's never quit. Supposedly he tore his rotator cuff and still moved up and fought Castillo, had a bad performance and immediately rematched him.

No need to ride dick but at least give the guy his just due
EAlbian
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 09:48 AM) *
i made a mistake with the age. boo fucking hoo. doesnt make my point wrong.

your just another keyboard warrior. how you guna shut me up hit me with the keyboard?

and to anybody else saying crap about hes my favourite fighter. hes far from it. am just statin what can be taken into account.

sure shane mosley lost to two people twice. but there not the same fighter. Floyd obvious lost to castillo the first fight but definitley beat him the second fight.


he obviously didn't lose because he's undefeated. It was a close fight, judges saw the way they saw it.

How would it be tainted?? The guys never lost and has had some pretty one-sided wins recently and has never shown any ring rust after a long layoff, smoked Marquez after 21/mo. If he loses he lost to a fighter that was better than him on that night
mgrover
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 05:09 PM) *
he obviously didn't lose because he's undefeated. It was a close fight, judges saw the way they saw it.

How would it be tainted?? The guys never lost and has had some pretty one-sided wins recently and has never shown any ring rust after a long layoff, smoked Marquez after 21/mo. If he loses he lost to a fighter that was better than him on that night


the judges saw it how they saw it and the fans see it how they see it. am sure plenty of people on here would agree he should of lost that fight. and that's right he hasn't shown ring rust against a competitor moving up two weight classes to fight him. but hes also older now. for Ortiz if he won i would definitely give him credit for it, i just can't see it happen over 12 rounds. If he did win, there's no way he could do it again. no am not a fan of Mayweather, but realistically does Ortiz have a chance? He has somewhat higher punchers chance than most fighters.
EAlbian
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 11:18 AM) *
the judges saw it how they saw it and the fans see it how they see it. am sure plenty of people on here would agree he should of lost that fight. and that's right he hasn't shown ring rust against a competitor moving up two weight classes to fight him. but hes also older now. for Ortiz if he won i would definitely give him credit for it, i just can't see it happen over 12 rounds. If he did win, there's no way he could do it again. no am not a fan of Mayweather, but realistically does Ortiz have a chance? He has somewhat higher punchers chance than most fighters.


Unfortunately fans don't decide the outcome of a fight, judges do. I dont think it was obvious that he won the fight, i thought it was close and scored it 113-113.

he didn't look rusty after 9mo off fighting Mosley either, who was the #1 WW and coming off a huge win. Mayweather chose to stay out of the ring and if he loses he gets no sympathy from me. 41 have tried and 41 have failed, if 42 prevails than 42 was better on September 17th

I don't think Ortiz wins but lesser fighters have given Mayweather problems, no reason to believe Ortiz couldn't do the same.
Cshel86
Like I said earlier, Ortiz can only hope to not lose in a humiliating fashion...by way of getting outgunned all night or possibly getting stopped by Floyd. Getting stopped in my opinion would be worse for him, because Floyd hasn't knocked anybody out the last 4 years, so Ortiz will have to deal with the ridicule from other fighters, if he gets stopped. If he hurts Floyd, or knocks him down once or twice, then he doesn't have to do anything else right for the rest of the night...he can go out any way he wants then.

He can be guaranteed that his stock is going to shoot up, if such events occur...simply because he was able to get to Mayweather and make him look bad for a second. Hell, he did it to Berto, but Berto has been down before. Floyd's been in there with enough Ortiz-like fighters, but Ortiz hasn't been in there with any Floyd-like fighters. Oh wait...I almost forgot how Lamont Peterson got out of trouble and outgunned Ortiz and fought to a draw no2.gif
duwdu
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:32 AM) *
Floyd has been in deep water once in his career, against Castillo. And in the moment of truth, after his uncle beseeched him to "get the round big", he ran. Mayweather doesn't like punishment. He'll quit if he can no longer make his opponent miss.

So you want the guy to like punishment and not have to fight on the back foot (which you obviously insinuate as "running",) and may be become incapacitated in his old age, just because you'd pay $60 to watch him fight... hmm. As for your corollary to that/thought of Floyd ever quiting, you've obviously posted with your heart, which is not necessarily a bad thing... especially so if only wishes were horses...

P34c3
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 12:04 PM) *
Floyd was hurt much worse by Corley as well as Mosley, he stayed right in the pocket and fought. Emanuel Agustus gave him a rough fight, he stayed right in there and slugged it out and stopped him. Floyd is no coward, not to say that if he had to move to survive a rough moment he wouldn't. The guy is one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen, he does what he needs to win. He's never quit, the guy broke his hand took a knee and won the fight with one hand. Obviously you need to spend a little youtube time revisiting the guys career, at least boxrec time to realize he's 42-0 with no losses, obviously he's never quit. Supposedly he tore his rotator cuff and still moved up and fought Castillo, had a bad performance and immediately rematched him.

No need to ride dick but at least give the guy his just due


He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:03 PM) *
He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.



Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?
duwdu
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:03 PM) *
He fought like a man against an aging Mosley, because Mosley backed off and got tired. He got physically beat up against non-punchers like Corley and Augustus, and largely invited the exchanges to show how tough he is against C grade fighters. That's not deep water. Deep water is when you're in a tough fight and can't easily swim to safety. The only evenly contested fight he was in was against Castillo, whom he ran from in the last round, then subsequently ran from in the rematch. I'm not saying Mayweather doesn't deserve enormous credit, I'm just saying people are too cocksure about his ability to win. He can lose and it won't require superhuman, steroid-filled ability.

And reread my entire post, I said I didn't think it would happen. Just one possible scenario. I expect him to win and look good doing it.

And two more points: There was never any suggestion of him breaking his hand against famoso hernandez. he got hurt, so he potshot and ran for the rest of the fight. nothing wrong with that but that's what he did.

So how does this all lead you, at this stage, to associate a fighter of Floyd's pedigree with the most heinous crime in boxing - quitting? Why don't you just care to draw a decent line when you criticize an accomplished fighter?

P34c3
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fswFNvqgyk clearly points to his hand, it may not have been "broken" but he clearly hurt it enough to take a knee. He didn't quit. he won the 12th rd imo against Castillo. He moved, idk if i'd call the second fight running, employing a tactic that your opponent can't adjust to would be seen as smart in some observers eyes. Maybe Ortiz is C level? maybe he can get to Mayweather? I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. I was arguing the quitting part, where has he ever shown the inclination to quit?


Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (duwdu @ Aug 23 2011, 01:22 PM) *
So how does this all lead you, at this stage, to associate a fighter of Floyd's pedigree with the most heinous crime in boxing - quitting? Why don't you just care to draw a decent line when you criticize an accomplished fighter?

P34c3


Why are you feigning incredulity? I'm only taking Floyd's own comments at face value. He doesn't want to take punishment. One scenario on September 17 is that he can no longer move and dance like he use to, and if he finds himself on the deck a couple times, takes big shots consistently, and is forced to stand and bang with Ortiz, you think his 100 million dollar ass is gonna stick it out and try to win? He might not pull a Duran, but he'll seek to preserve his brain before trying to win a slugging match against a 24 year old.

Having said that, I think his conditioning is too good and I don't think Ortiz' punches are going to be anything he can't physically handle. At worst this will be Jones-Tarver I.
duwdu
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.

It's all good that you're now off your "quitting" high horse. However, you're very good with condescending words to describe the actions you yourself admit as being smart, so one has to always look past your use of language.

P34c3
duwdu
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Why are you feigning incredulity? I'm only taking Floyd's own comments at face value. He doesn't want to take punishment. One scenario on September 17 is that he can no longer move and dance like he use to, and if he finds himself on the deck a couple times, takes big shots consistently, and is forced to stand and bang with Ortiz, you think his 100 million dollar ass is gonna stick it out and try to win? He might not pull a Duran, but he'll seek to preserve his brain before trying to win a slugging match against a 24 year old.

Having said that, I think his conditioning is too good and I don't think Ortiz' punches are going to be anything he can't physically handle. At worst this will be Jones-Tarver I.

The fact that Floyd doesn't like punishment doesn't mean he wouldn't take it once in a long while to preserve his integrity, like he indeed has done even in recent past. In fact, I would want to think that's one of his strategies that inform his lay offs - to rebuild his elements, but I may be wrong.

Otherwise your arguments are ok.

P34c3
mgrover
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 05:26 PM) *
he didn't look rusty after 9mo off fighting Mosley either, who was the #1 WW and coming off a huge win. Mayweather chose to stay out of the ring and if he loses he gets no sympathy from me. 41 have tried and 41 have failed, if 42 prevails than 42 was better on September 17th


he didnt look rusty against mosley but that shot he took, I don't think he would of taken it if it wasnt for a lay off. after he adjusted for that shot by throwing a left hook to ensure mosley backed off.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 12:37 PM) *
Did I say his running wasn't smart? He used the one advantage he had... speed. I was illustrating that Floyd is beatable and it doesn't require superhuman ability to defeat him. Castillo showed all it took was good timing, mental strength, good body work, and a solid chin to at least fight evenly with him.

I don't often use the word "clearly", but you're grasping for straws with that one, because Castillo clearly won the 12th round. He nearly doubled Mayweather's landed punches in the round. Rotator cuff injury or not, the same thing would have happened in the rematch if he didn't run/dance/skip/scamper. It just goes to show that when facing a sincere challenge, Floyd thinks with his legs.


I said he clearly hurt his hand. Didn't say he clearly won the round. The fight wasn't clearly won. I scored it a draw and could make an argument for either guy. I think Floyd won the 12th round, watch it again, Castillo threw punches but they were all arm punches and nothing landed cleanly. Mayweather landed the cleaner punches. I thought Compu-box did a terrible job in this fight(its just a guy clicking a button) and didn't see a lot of Castillo's punches landing
EAlbian
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 01:23 PM) *
he didnt look rusty against mosley but that shot he took, I don't think he would of taken it if it wasnt for a lay off. after he adjusted for that shot by throwing a left hook to ensure mosley backed off.


Mosley set the shot up well, jab to the body and then the right upstairs, Nazim and Mosley worked on this set up. Mayweather has been caught before(Corley, Judah, Agustus), just not recently. I think he's fine. He looks good in the training session they have put out so far, his hands are still fast and he lives a good life(no drinking/smoking/partying/weight-gain/punishment). I don't think he will be that rusty. I guess we'll see on 9/17
Cshel86
Damn yall were debating this long? Where tha hell was I at? I wanted to get in on it...guess I missed out 'cause of my layoff dntknw.gif
EAlbian
QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 23 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Damn yall were debating this long? Where tha hell was I at? I wanted to get in on it...guess I missed out 'cause of my layoff dntknw.gif


haha, get up in it
Cshel86
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 02:36 PM) *
haha, get up in it

Lol, yall are knee-deep in this one.. Im might have to catch yall on the next one. Good debates though
EAlbian
QUOTE (cshel86 @ Aug 23 2011, 01:40 PM) *
Lol, yall are knee-deep in this one.. Im might have to catch yall on the next one. Good debates though


haha, of course it was another thread dedicated to a boxer and ends up being about Mayweather... dammit. I'm done on this one, there were some good points made tho.

Eighty88eight, I see where u were coming from. I enjoy the arguments too much not to comment haha
Cshel86
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Aug 23 2011, 02:59 PM) *
haha, of course it was another thread dedicated to a boxer and ends up being about Mayweather... dammit. I'm done on this one, there were some good points made tho.

Eighty88eight, I see where u were coming from. I enjoy the arguments too much not to comment haha

Isn't that always the ending result laugh.gif We all get caught up every now and then...
Allmenjoi8
It all comes down to how Ortiz fights. If he fades in the middle and later rounds and becomes Floyd punching bag, he can fight Shane or Sergio. That would be a big fight. Khan would be interesting and if Bradely moves up that would be another great fight. It all comes down to how he fights wins or lose. If he wins his career is in his hands if he loses he better put on a good performance. I wonder if his trainer knows what the hell he is doing... I just do not want him to take this fight as another walk in the park. Hell if he knocks May down that is an accomplishment. I hope he has a good game plan, if May figures him out in three rounds like he did Shane or JMM then it is over. If May picks him apart and toys with him like Hatton then its all bad. I want Ortiz to box smart and brawl when neccessary. I can't wait to Sep 17! Let's go
Fitz
Mayweather doesn't seem to like punishment. Nothing wrong with that, we have defensive fighters who are comparable to Mayweather in Hopkins and Toney. Hopkins and Toney fight the fights where they hit and try not to get hit, but willing to take shots and doesn't bother them getting hit. Like water off a ducks back for them.
I'm not suggesting Mayweather is a coward or scared or anything like that, but getting hit seems to bother him more than Hopkins and Toney. Only reason I am using Hopkins and Toney as an example, because it would be just a matter of time before someone says that Floyd likes the sweet science and isn't like a Gatti type of fighter.
Not knocking Mayweather, but I agree with what was said earlier, that punishment tends to bother Mayweather a bit, compared to other defensive fighters like Hopkins and Toney.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Aug 23 2011, 06:16 PM) *
I hope he has a good game plan, if May figures him out in three rounds like he did Shane or JMM then it is over.


Trust me Mayweather already has him figured out. I'm pleased to see Victor get a payday and shot at redemption but he brings nothing that Mayweather hasn't faced better before.

I'm more pumped for the undercard!
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 23 2011, 08:00 PM) *
Trust me Mayweather already has him figured out. I'm pleased to see Victor get a payday and shot at redemption but he brings nothing that Mayweather hasn't faced better before.

I'm more pumped for the undercard!


Trust me Mayweather already has him figured out. I'm pleased to see Castillo get a payday but he brings nothing that Mayweather hasn't faced better before.
Allmenjoi8
QUOTE (Fitz @ Aug 23 2011, 05:50 PM) *
Mayweather doesn't seem to like punishment. Nothing wrong with that, we have defensive fighters who are comparable to Mayweather in Hopkins and Toney. Hopkins and Toney fight the fights where they hit and try not to get hit, but willing to take shots and doesn't bother them getting hit. Like water off a ducks back for them.
I'm not suggesting Mayweather is a coward or scared or anything like that, but getting hit seems to bother him more than Hopkins and Toney. Only reason I am using Hopkins and Toney as an example, because it would be just a matter of time before someone says that Floyd likes the sweet science and isn't like a Gatti type of fighter.
Not knocking Mayweather, but I agree with what was said earlier, that punishment tends to bother Mayweather a bit, compared to other defensive fighters like Hopkins and Toney.


Maybe getting hit is an ego thing. If he prides himself on defense and someone breaks his defense down then he isn't invinciable. When Castillo broke his defense down mentally FMJ was stunned which prevented him from fighting his fight. FMJ prides himself on defense so when someone clocks him maybe it hurts his mental state as well.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:05 PM) *
Trust me Mayweather already has him figured out. I'm pleased to see Castillo get a payday but he brings nothing that Mayweather hasn't faced better before.


Are you trying to suggest a similiarity?

Before Castillo Floyd had only fought Hernandez, Corrales and Augustus. Their first fight was nine freaken years ago. Gee do you think Floyd has got a bit more experience since then? Seasoned himself some more?

Since that fight he's gone on to face a variety of boxers and sluggers, Corley, Gatti, Mitchell, Baldomir, Hatton, Judah, Hoya, Mosley and Marquez gaining more experience each time. Hence Ortiz brings nothing that Floyd hasn't seen before.

And seriously are you comparing the talent levels, heart and desire of JLC and Ortiz? You must be joking. You should wash your mouth out with soap.

I hope you realise in trying to make a cute point you just made yourself look very very silly.
Mean Mister Mustard
Yeah, Ortiz is nothing like JCL. I'm not suggesting that the guy to beat Mayweather has to fight like Castillo, but to suggest that Ortiz is a lot like JCL and will thus give PBF trouble is not accurate at all.

Castillo fought more like Chavez, coming forward, showing subtle head movement, and applying precise shots to the body and head. Ortiz is more of a boxer/puncher, who is not as good a mechanic on the inside as Castillo.

Ortiz does have some things going for him here; he's a southpaw, which means Mayweather will likely have to press the issue, and thus leave himself open to some Ortiz bombs. On the other hand, Ortiz isn't all that hard to tag, and Mayweather is a master at finding a combination of punches that work and just repeating it over and over. Like Ollie said, Mayweather has already won this. He only needs to get in the ring, take 3-4 rounds to figure out the timing of his opponent, and it's all over.
Eighty88Eight
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 23 2011, 08:40 PM) *
Are you trying to suggest a similiarity?

Before Castillo Floyd had only fought Hernandez, Corrales and Augustus. Their first fight was nine freaken years ago. Gee do you think Floyd has got a bit more experience since then? Seasoned himself some more?

Since that fight he's gone on to face a variety of boxers and sluggers, Corley, Gatti, Mitchell, Baldomir, Hatton, Judah, Hoya, Mosley and Marquez gaining more experience each time. Hence Ortiz brings nothing that Floyd hasn't seen before.

And seriously are you comparing the talent levels, heart and desire of JLC and Ortiz? You must be joking. You should wash your mouth out with soap.

I hope you realise in trying to make a cute point you just made yourself look very very silly.


What I'm illustrating is how people write some fighters off for really trifling reasons, such as "he isn't anything he hasn't seen before". If you would use your brain, you'd realize that this is really a different challenge than what Mayweather has previously encountered. I'm not suggesting it will matter, but I seem to recall Uncle Roger saying "if you throw a beer bottle in the ring, it'll land on Castillo's chin". And that it'll "be easier than the Chavez fight". When good, willful, strong, hungry fighters face each other, anything can happen. 10 years younger, a very long layoff, hungry, left handed (the best of Mayweather's career, actually), a tremendous right hook, good hand speed... that's an attribute list you can't completely assign to any of the other Mayweather challenges. This may very well look a lot like Tarver-Jones I especially early on.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Eighty88Eight @ Aug 23 2011, 08:53 PM) *
What I'm illustrating is how people write some fighters off for really trifling reasons, such as "he isn't anything he hasn't seen before". If you would use your brain, you'd realize that this is really a different challenge than what Mayweather has previously encountered. I'm not suggesting it will matter, but I seem to recall Uncle Roger saying "if you throw a beer bottle in the ring, it'll land on Castillo's chin". And that it'll "be easier than the Chavez fight". When good, willful, strong, hungry fighters face each other, anything can happen. 10 years younger, a very long layoff, hungry, left handed (the best of Mayweather's career, actually), a tremendous right hook, good hand speed... that's an attribute list you can't completely assign to any of the other Mayweather challenges. This may very well look a lot like Tarver-Jones I especially early on.



I don't doubt that anything could happen, Tyson-Douglas will always be proof of that but to suggest that this is somehow a tough challenge for Floyd is drawing a fucken long bow in my opinion.

If Floyd loses it will be because he hasn't prepared well as I don't think talent for talent Victor is even in the same galaxy as Floyd. However the one thing you can always be assured of is that Floyd prepares better than almost anyone. This should be an easy fight for Floyd but of course miracles do happen. An Ortiz victory would be a miracle in my book. And it won't look anything like Tarver/Jones 1 as Floyd's weight will be on point and he will be in tip top shape, not weight drained like Roy.

A love how you're describing Ortiz like a mini Ivan Drago based off one victory over Andre Berto. I sure as hell didn't see a hungry fighter against Maidana or a championship guy ready to close the show down the stretch against Peterson. I saw a good fighter who makes a lot of mistakes. Floyd punishes mistakes probably better than anyone in the sport save Hopkins.
sduck
Berto has virtually NO defense; Ortiz couldn't even knock him out, nor could he even bruise him. Ortiz explodes early, then becomes weak. Ortiz has power and gets in that ass, but he has no defense, he swings wild, he doesn't have much technique at all, he doesn't keep that "explosive" pace the entire fight, not even more than half the fight. If FMJ still has the conditioning and talent, Ortiz has no chance, none what-so-ever. It'll probably be similar to the Mosley fight, but I think Mosley has a better chin than Ortiz.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 04:00 AM) *
if he won. mayweather would rematch and woop his ass.lightening does not strike in the same place twice or something like that. also if he won i can think of a couple of reasons that he would win, mayweathers lay offs would be taken into account and the fact hes 37. just seems that anyone that beats him now it will seem like a tainted victory.

This post reads like you finger-painted it with your own shit.

Let me get this straight - if Ortiz wins it will be a tainted victory because of FMJ's layoffs and the fact that he is 30 something, but FMJ will come back and "woop his ass."

The fact that you had no fucking Earthly idea how old FMJ is had little to do with the reality that your post is one of the most ignorant comments that I have read on this forum in quite some time.

QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 07:48 AM) *
i made a mistake with the age. boo fucking hoo. doesnt make my point wrong.

your just another keyboard warrior. how you guna shut me up hit me with the keyboard?

and to anybody else saying crap about hes my favourite fighter. hes far from it. am just statin what can be taken into account.

sure shane mosley lost to two people twice. but there not the same fighter. Floyd obvious lost to castillo the first fight but definitley beat him the second fight.

Read your original post, Einstone. I was doing you a favor when I suggested that you STFU. I knew that you couldn't help but come back and play your own pesonal version of that wigger playing himself in (what was it?) 9 Kilometers or some shit - "No I don't no what the fuck I'm talking about. Yes my head is a full truckload of sauerkraut. Its true I have nothing original to say and my best line is a tired cliche. I am a dumbass. I know its true. I look in the mirror to see a fool man chew. Doesn't make my point wrong. I like wearing this thong. What you gonna do? I already got a wedgy turning my nutsac blue."

You shoulda STFU when you had the chance.

QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 09:18 AM) *
the judges saw it how they saw it and the fans see it how they see it. am sure plenty of people on here would agree he should of lost that fight. and that's right he hasn't shown ring rust against a competitor moving up two weight classes to fight him. but hes also older now. for Ortiz if he won i would definitely give him credit for it, i just can't see it happen over 12 rounds. If he did win, there's no way he could do it again. no am not a fan of Mayweather, but realistically does Ortiz have a chance? He has somewhat higher punchers chance than most fighters.

Here we go again . . . "Ortiz doesn't have a chance, but if he wins it will be a tainted victory . . . and I don't like my floydie, BTW."

QUOTE (mgrover @ Aug 23 2011, 11:23 AM) *
he didnt look rusty against mosley but that shot he took, I don't think he would of taken it if it wasnt for a lay off. after he adjusted for that shot by throwing a left hook to ensure mosley backed off.

"My Floydie didn't look rusty against Mosley, but Mosley wouldn't have landed that shot if my Floydie wasn't rusty."

On second thought please, I'm begging you, don't STFU. This is too entertaining.
mgrover
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 24 2011, 05:00 AM) *
This post reads like you finger-painted it with your own shit.

Let me get this straight - if Ortiz wins it will be a tainted victory because of FMJ's layoffs and the fact that he is 30 something, but FMJ will come back and "woop his ass."

The fact that you had no fucking Earthly idea how old FMJ is had little to do with the reality that your post is one of the most ignorant comments that I have read on this forum in quite some time.


Read your original post, Einstone. I was doing you a favor when I suggested that you STFU. I knew that you couldn't help but come back and play your own pesonal version of that wigger playing himself in (what was it?) 9 Kilometers or some shit - "No I don't no what the fuck I'm talking about. Yes my head is a full truckload of sauerkraut. Its true I have nothing original to say and my best line is a tired cliche. I am a dumbass. I know its true. I look in the mirror to see a fool man chew. Doesn't make my point wrong. I like wearing this thong. What you gonna do? I already got a wedgy turning my nutsac blue."

You shoulda STFU when you had the chance.


Here we go again . . . "Ortiz doesn't have a chance, but if he wins it will be a tainted victory . . . and I don't like my floydie, BTW."


"My Floydie didn't look rusty against Mosley, but Mosley wouldn't have landed that shot if my Floydie wasn't rusty."

On second thought please, I'm begging you, don't STFU. This is too entertaining.


look its like this. there is no way on earth you can do any type of damage to me, and I don't give a fuck what you have to say. I could contradict myself by saying am an atheist that believes in god and you can point me out to the world and I'd still say go fuck off and argue with someone who wants to argue. Cause at the end of a day your picking some shitty argument on the internet like another keyboard warrior. I stand by my point. you stand by yours. good for you.

see I wouldn't mind if you brought something to an arguement other than racism. thats all you are a racist fuck. other people have said how I could be wrong and none of them resorted to being racisted. am not white so i doubt am a wigger.
D-MARV
If Ortiz wins: Rematch


If Ortiz loses: Pacquiao in 2012
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Aug 24 2011, 11:08 PM) *
If Ortiz wins: Rematch


If Ortiz loses: Pacquiao in 2012


Ouch! D-Marv you bitch laugh.gif
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