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Fitz
Ok, so how do you compare the careers between these fighters?

1. Judah-Spinks
2. De La Hoya-Mosley
3. Cotto-Vargas
4. Hamed-Hatton

Judah-Spinks
Both fighters were undisputed welter weight champions, and both split fights 1-1 between each other, though that has been Judah's only key career win. Spinks at least still has a decent win against Mayorga which is already better than anything else Zab has done. He has picked up a few more decent wins along the way.
Judah had the more potential, and more upside to him, but didn't live up to it. At this stage, I think Spinks has had the better career.

STEVENSKI
Rating them I have

Spinks
DLH
Cotto
Hatton
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Spinks. I thought he actually beat Taylor.

DLH. Hoya fought the higher opposition and sdespite the losses i thought had a more meomorable career than Mosley.

Vargas. Probably the toughest one for me. Both came up short in their biggest tests but I'm going to shade it for Vargas due to that win over the much avoided Winkty Wright. I could honestly go either way though. Cotto did get by Mosley so....................

Hamed. hatton has the bigger name as a scalp but I thought Hamed was just more dominant over guys when he was at his peak. hamed's power was insane and he iced guys that had never been KO'ed before with one shot sometimes seemingly going backwards. I might actually go and YouTube the Kevin Kelley fight right now, thanks for reminding me Fitz!
TheFonz
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 27 2011, 03:45 AM) *
Spinks. I thought he actually beat Taylor.

DLH. Hoya fought the higher opposition and sdespite the losses i thought had a more meomorable career than Mosley.

Vargas. Probably the toughest one for me. Both came up short in their biggest tests but I'm going to shade it for Vargas due to that win over the much avoided Winkty Wright. I could honestly go either way though. Cotto did get by Mosley so....................

Hamed. hatton has the bigger name as a scalp but I thought Hamed was just more dominant over guys when he was at his peak. hamed's power was insane and he iced guys that had never been KO'ed before with one shot sometimes seemingly going backwards. I might actually go and YouTube the Kevin Kelley fight right now, thanks for reminding me Fitz!



Meh, that win is in the same exact vein as Cotto's win over Clottey. I have to say that Cotto has had the better career between the two.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (TheFonz @ Aug 27 2011, 11:53 PM) *
Meh, that win is in the same exact vein as Cotto's win over Clottey. I have to say that Cotto has had the better career between the two.


NO Winky is waaaay better than Clottey.
Method
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 27 2011, 08:29 AM) *
NO Winky is waaaay better than Clottey.

Winky IS a lot better than Clottey, but shit, man, Cotto easily had the better career of the two. He's fought the way tougher competition of the two, and never got caught cheating either.
BigG
Naz was better than Hatton for sure. You could say Naz was overrated but he had alot of great performances in his title run...like the Kelley, Vazquez, Bungu, Medina, Augie Sanchez fights. I thought Hatton lost to Collazo
Mean Mister Mustard
I say Spinks because he did beat Judah and Mayorga, even though the Mayorga win was close as hell.

I will take DLH over Mosley simply because he should have been the victor in the 2nd Mosley fight. Plus that was a juiced up Mosley.

Vargas's big wins were against Campas, Marquez, Wright and Quartey. Cotto beat solid guys like Malignaggi, Corley, Quintana, Judah, Mosley, Clottey and Mayorga. In this instance, he had many more fights than Vargas.

I also take Hamed over Hatton. Hamed beat up Paul Ingle, Manuel Medina, Wilfredo Vazquez, Cesar Soto (a tough customer), Vuyani Bungu, Kevin Kelly, and he should have been the unified featherweight champ, had it not been for some shady politics. Hatton beat up some fringe guys early on, his first two decent wins were against an ancient Vince Phillips, then against the tough but one dimensional Tackie until he finally beat Tszyu. He had an extremely tough decision over Collazo, then Urango, Castillo, Lazcano and Malignaggi. Good opponents but Hamed gets it because he beat world class guys in much more impressive and easier fashion.
Fitz
I would probably lean slightly towards DLH, but I am surprised nobody has stepped forward ad made a case for Mosley. DLH-Mosley was the toughest one for me.
Cshel86
De La Hoya/Mosley: I give this to De La Hoya any day of the week. All roads led to Oscar, he was the money man to beat, he had the most championships, and he had the biggest name in the sport. Mosley's resume would've definitely been lacking if Oscar's name wasn't on it. I remember Mosley being in survival mode too many times, and Oscar never showed us that.

Judah/ Spinks: Gotta give this one to Spinks. He fought his way to victories or he fought his way to a loss...never gave anybody anything. Though they were both undisputed champions, Judah had the bisggest opportunities and the most chances at redemption, and always managed to blow them.

Cotto/Vargas: This one is a toss-up for some reason. Vargas got his break early in his career, and Cotto had to wait for his. In a certain sense, they were both hype-jobs, but showed so much heart in the ring, so I dont know where Im going with that statement. They are nearly even with headlining PPVs, but the era of "everybody fights everybody" slightly gives Vargas the edge here.

Hamed/Hatton: I have to give this to Hamed, hands down. Dude was entertaining in and out of the ring, plus he had a crazy fan base. He practically paved the way for Hatton, though Hatton was a big draw as well.
zucrates
QUOTE (TheFonz @ Aug 27 2011, 07:53 AM) *
Meh, that win is in the same exact vein as Cotto's win over Clottey. I have to say that Cotto has had the better career between the two.

I agree with that(Cotto) Vargas just didn't seem to pan out idk if it was his outside of the ring problems or what but if he wouldn't have lost to Mayorga that killed him in my eyes.

zucrates
QUOTE (zucrates @ Aug 27 2011, 01:34 PM) *
I agree with that(Cotto) Vargas just didn't seem to pan out idk if it was his outside of the ring problems or what but if he wouldn't have lost to Mayorga that killed him in my eyes.

Also
Judah Spinks should have cut his tribute dance in half he may have won those close fights and then I would have gave it to him but I am still pissed at Judah for the Khan fight (he cheated fans from a good fight )

DLH Mosley had to use something extra before he even got in there wit DLH so to me thats him admitting DLH is better

Hammed ALL DAY!

JONdaCON817
DLH..

Spinks..

Cotto..

Prince Naseem..
sduck
Judah-Spinks - I'm gonna have to give it to Judah for the fact that Judah fought more of the top opposition, went longer when they were both undefeated, and had a more impressive victory over Spinks than Spinks had over him.

De La Hoya-Mosley - I don't understand how anyone can give this to De La Hoya... DLH beat a arguably washed up Whitaker and a washed up JCC? Mosley beat Oscar twice and fought more of the top opposition. But then again if we're referring to overall Career, that would also include Weight Transitioning, Money, Titles fights and titles earned... In which DLH gains some more points, so it would made it closer in comparison... I will still give it Mosley, PED or not, he beat Oscar twice.

Cotto-Vargas - hands down to Cotto. Cotto went longer undefeated, beat and fought more quality fighters, made more weight transitions, had more title fights, earned more titles, and is still fighting.

Hamed-Hatton - I'm gonna have to go with Ricky Hatton. Both beat and lost to top competitors. But Hatton went longer undefeated, had more title fights, more money fights, and had a longer career. Hamed shouldn't of retired after losing his biggest fight. Hatton kept on fighting after losing his, even though it ended up retiring him.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (sduck @ Aug 27 2011, 05:19 PM) *
Judah-Spinks - I'm gonna have to give it to Judah for the fact that Judah fought more of the top opposition, went longer when they were both undefeated, and had a more impressive victory over Spinks than Spinks had over him.

De La Hoya-Mosley - I don't understand how anyone can give this to De La Hoya... DLH beat a arguably washed up Whitaker and a washed up JCC? Mosley beat Oscar twice and fought more of the top opposition. But then again if we're referring to overall Career, that would also include Weight Transitioning, Money, Titles fights and titles earned... In which DLH gains some more points, so it would made it closer in comparison... I will still give it Mosley, PED or not, he beat Oscar twice.

Cotto-Vargas - hands down to Cotto. Cotto went longer undefeated, beat and fought more quality fighters, made more weight transitions, had more title fights, earned more titles, and is still fighting.

Hamed-Hatton - I'm gonna have to go with Ricky Hatton. Both beat and lost to top competitors. But Hatton went longer undefeated, had more title fights, more money fights, and had a longer career. Hamed shouldn't of retired after losing his biggest fight. Hatton kept on fighting after losing his, even though it ended up retiring him.


When comparing fighters, we shouldn't take money into account. It's what's done in the ring that counts.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (sduck @ Aug 28 2011, 09:19 AM) *
Cotto-Vargas - hands down to Cotto. Cotto went longer undefeated, beat and fought more quality fighters, made more weight transitions, had more title fights, earned more titles, and is still fighting.


I can't argue anyone putting Cotto before Vargas, as I said it was a toss-up for me, but the bolded part I take a little issue with. I'm not sure anyone on Cotto's resume of fighters faced reads like Trinidad, Wright, De la Hoya and Quartey. All pretty much prime versions of themselves as well.

I don't know maybe I'm missing something here but I think that foursome is way better than anything Cotto faced which was a prime Pac and a slightly past his peak Molsey.
and the NEW
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 27 2011, 12:48 PM) *
Winky IS a lot better than Clottey, but shit, man, Cotto easily had the better career of the two. He's fought the way tougher competition of the two, and never got caught cheating either.


I couldn't agree there as far as Cotto having fought tougher competition. But I do agree Winky is WAY better than Clottey.

Vargas fought DLH, Mosley, Mayorga, Tito, Quartey, Winky. Fukc me, that is way harder than Pac, Mosley, Margarito, Mayorga, Clottey, Zab etc.
It is hard to judge because Cotto did more in his career, more titles, more divisions, more wins. But he didn't fight as good competition.

DLH V Mosley, that is a tough one to split also. I think both men lost quite a large portion of their primes, DLH when he left Alcazar and became a fairy hitting, philly shell fighter as opposed to a hard hitting, stand-up boxer puncher. Mosley on the other hand became obsessed with his power and lost everything that made him successful as far as speed and punch output. Give me DLH by a whisker given I thought he beat Tito and Mosley in the rematch but I also thought Mosley edged Cotto.

Spinks and Judah both decent, although at least Spinks had a win over Mayorga, Judah wouldn't beat anyone similar to that. Spinks. Sduck did make me reconsider now after reading his post, Judah did beat Spinks in better fashion than he himself lost to Spinks. I just think that Spinks, despite not fighting as good competition, would have done bettter against that competition if he did face them, whilst Judah would have most definately beeen knocked out by Mayorga.

Hamed and Hatton Both dominated until they stepped up against all-time greats, but I would say a win over an old Tszyu is still better than anything Hamed ever did! Hatton.
and the NEW
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 27 2011, 11:07 PM) *
I'm not sure anyone on Cotto's resume of fighters faced reads like Trinidad, Wright, De la Hoya and Quartey. All pretty much prime versions of themselves as well.


Agree Cottos resume isn't anything like Vargas, but Quartey was not prime, not even close.
Fitz
Vargas may have fought tougher competition, but I think when comparing careers, we should focus on the actual career of the fighter. I agree, Vargas may have fought tougher opposition, but came up short in more of them.
Fitz
ATN, just bumped the football thread in general. You usually have good insight, hopefully some others like PR and Maxy come out of the woodwork as well, haha.
and the NEW
Good thread also Fitz. These are all very close fighters to rank in the match-ups you made. A different way of looking at head to head matchups and legacy in general and very interesting.

Agreed, I think Cotto had the better career but I have to hand it to Vargas for his spirit of taking on the best. Very tough to split these guys.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (and the NEW @ Aug 29 2011, 07:17 PM) *
Agree Cottos resume isn't anything like Vargas, but Quartey was not prime, not even close.


Just double checked coz I wasn't sure only 14 months after the De la Hoya fight. I'll take that as being close enough to his prime. Remember he was undefeated going into the Hoya fight.

But we could come down to splitting hairs on that one. It's so tough with him and Cotto, I just think to myself what would've happened to Cotto if he'd run into Trinidad at 147? I think he would've got murdered in 6 rounds.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 29 2011, 07:53 PM) *
I just think to myself what would've happened to Cotto if he'd run into Trinidad at 147? I think he would've got murdered in 6 rounds.



I would enjoy that quite a bit.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 29 2011, 10:09 PM) *
I would enjoy that quite a bit.


Cotto would've had that busted up goofy look he gets. It wouldn't have been pretty.
Eighty88Eight
Cotto is the kinda guy Tito would have got knocked down by in round 2, then come back and ktfo in round 4. I'll never forget Tito's knock out of Yori Boy Campos. Possibly my favorite knock out of all time.
Cshel86
Man I watched Trinidad/Vargas the other night, and boy oh boy! Vargas was definitely a game fighter, being the fact that Trinidad's skill level was beyond his at the time. Tito was giving it to Vargas like mail on Sunday, but Vargas gave him everything he had. If Tito didn't hit Vargas with that low blow after he got dropped, then it would have been a wrap. I wasn't really a big fan of Trinidad though...dude used to get dirty wit it whenever he got hurt in the ring. You could always count on a low blow from him somewhere in the fight.
Cshel86
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 29 2011, 05:53 AM) *
Just double checked coz I wasn't sure only 14 months after the De la Hoya fight. I'll take that as being close enough to his prime. Remember he was undefeated going into the Hoya fight.

But we could come down to splitting hairs on that one. It's so tough with him and Cotto, I just think to myself what would've happened to Cotto if he'd run into Trinidad at 147? I think he would've got murdered in 6 rounds.

Yeah Quartey was still in his prime, though he did suffer his first loss at the hands of De La Hoya. They were puttin' on eachother 'til that last round, which Oscar clearly won. Cotto and Trinidad would've been a great one! A short one, but a great one!
Nay_Sayer
Sorry people but there is no way in hell you can rate DLH over Mosley.

Mosley fought and BEAT the better opposition. Period, end of story.
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Aug 29 2011, 06:26 PM) *
Sorry people but there is no way in hell you can rate DLH over Mosley.

Mosley fought and BEAT the better opposition. Period, end of story.



It's close, and I think Mosley-DLH were 1-1 vs each other. I also think DLH beat Trinidad quite easily which is a big plus for him. DLH also beat prime Quartey and not-quite-prime-but-still-fucking-good Whitaker (although I've watched it a few times and keep scoring it differently), which for me trumps Mosley's wins.


If you go strictly on paper, Mosley's two wins over DLH should seal it...but with Mosley's and DLH's careers the W's and L's don't tell the whole story when you factor in all the controversial decisions.





Black
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Aug 29 2011, 12:48 PM) *
It's close, and I think Mosley-DLH were 1-1 vs each other. I also think DLH beat Trinidad quite easily which is a big plus for him. DLH also beat prime Quartey and not-quite-prime-but-still-fucking-good Whitaker (although I've watched it a few times and keep scoring it differently), which for me trumps Mosley's wins.

If you go strictly on paper, Mosley's two wins over DLH should seal it...but with Mosley's and DLH's careers the W's and L's don't tell the whole story when you factor in all the controversial decisions.

Black


Sorry but I don't buy that "the W's and L's don't tell the whole story" crap. However, since you went there; DLH, while in his physical prime, shamelessly RAN from Trinidad in the last third of their fight. Meanwhile, Shane would go on to face all of the fighters DLH ducked - like Forrest, Wright, and Margarito.

At the end of the day, DLHs best win is his KO over juiced up Felix Trinidad victim Fernando Vargas. That doesn't beat out Shane's best work...
Big Slim Sweet
I've got Mosley over Oscar pretty clearly, and have elaborated on it in the past. Just tougher, willing to take on any and all without manipulating the situation. In late 2008 when Margarito was considered a welterweight killer and Pacquiao was considered a lightweight bunny, Shane targeted the killer and Oscar tried petting the bunny.

They both fought (and lost to) great competition. Oscar fought Tito and Hopkins, but used a catchweight to fight for Hop's title, and I've always had my suspicions about the legitimacy of that fight anyway. Shane fought Forrest and Winky twice each, going for immediate rematches despite his obvious physical disadvantages in those matchups.

Oscar was stopped twice. Shane stopped never. I like Shane's career better. I think it's hard for a lot of people not to give Oscar extra credit for his celebrity, but this is about what they did in the ring.

As for the other matchups:

Spinks over Judah. Barely, in a mostly who cares attraction.
Cotto over Vargas, though it's tough to not think about what Fernando's career could have been if he hadn't been thrown to the wolves so soon.
Hamed over Hatton. He was more skilled. Hatton has that one big win over Tszyu, but it was so tainted. Both men lost to the very best in humiliating fashion.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Aug 29 2011, 01:06 PM) *
Sorry but I don't buy that "the W's and L's don't tell the whole story" crap. However, since you went there; DLH, while in his physical prime, shamelessly RAN from Trinidad in the last third of their fight. Meanwhile, Shane would go on to face all of the fighters DLH ducked - like Forrest, Wright, and Margarito.

At the end of the day, DLHs best win is his KO over juiced up Felix Trinidad victim Fernando Vargas. That doesn't beat out Shane's best work...



QUOTE (Big Slim Sweet @ Aug 31 2011, 08:44 AM) *
I've got Mosley over Oscar pretty clearly, and have elaborated on it in the past. Just tougher, willing to take on any and all without manipulating the situation. In late 2008 when Margarito was considered a welterweight killer and Pacquiao was considered a lightweight bunny, Shane targeted the killer and Oscar tried petting the bunny.

They both fought (and lost to) great competition. Oscar fought Tito and Hopkins, but used a catchweight to fight for Hop's title, and I've always had my suspicions about the legitimacy of that fight anyway. Shane fought Forrest and Winky twice each, going for immediate rematches despite his obvious physical disadvantages in those matchups.

Oscar was stopped twice. Shane stopped never. I like Shane's career better. I think it's hard for a lot of people not to give Oscar extra credit for his celebrity, but this is about what they did in the ring.

As for the other matchups:

Spinks over Judah. Barely, in a mostly who cares attraction.
Cotto over Vargas, though it's tough to not think about what Fernando's career could have been if he hadn't been thrown to the wolves so soon.
Hamed over Hatton. He was more skilled. Hatton has that one big win over Tszyu, but it was so tainted. Both men lost to the very best in humiliating fashion.

Speaking of "juiced up," shouldn't that play into the comparison?
and the NEW
Yep, Shane went and fought Wink and Forrest.

DLH went and fought Whitaker, Tito, Quartey before moving up to fight BHOP and Sturm. No matter what way you try and spin doctor it, Oscar didn't take easy fights.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Aug 31 2011, 10:03 PM) *
Speaking of "juiced up," shouldn't that play into the comparison?

I take the juice into consideration and still give Sugar Shane the edge over the course of his career.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (and the NEW @ Sep 1 2011, 12:26 AM) *
No matter what way you try and spin doctor it, Oscar didn't take easy fights.


Gatti?
Coley?
Chavez rematch?
Forbes?
Camacho?
Campas?
sduck
Both Oscar and Shane took some hard fights. But I think in comparison, Mosley's career is a bit more impressive. I mean just for the fact he beat Oscar twice "on record" is enough to give it to Mosley.

QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Aug 27 2011, 07:07 PM) *
I can't argue anyone putting Cotto before Vargas, as I said it was a toss-up for me, but the bolded part I take a little issue with. I'm not sure anyone on Cotto's resume of fighters faced reads like Trinidad, Wright, De la Hoya and Quartey. All pretty much prime versions of themselves as well.

I don't know maybe I'm missing something here but I think that foursome is way better than anything Cotto faced which was a prime Pac and a slightly past his peak Molsey.

I kinda agree, but I was just saying that Cotto fought more fighters, not overall better. Vargas' only impressive victory was against Winky Wright. Vargas fought Quartey when Quartey was coming right off a loss to De La Hoya. Vargas also lost twice in a row to Mosley by KO, only a year before Cotto beat Mosley.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Big Slim Sweet @ Aug 31 2011, 10:53 PM) *
I take the juice into consideration and still give Sugar Shane the edge over the course of his career.

I take the fact he was juiced for a portion of his career and that evolved into a huge black vulva at the end to edge it for ODLH.

At least ODLH wore the fishnets and spikes outside the ring.
and the NEW
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Sep 1 2011, 06:33 AM) *
Gatti?
Coley?
Chavez rematch?
Forbes?
Camacho?
Campas?


Stone, Taylor, Marquez........

We are contrasting careers here right? Hence whilst Mosleys best names he faced that DLH did not were Wink and Forrest, foes DLH faced that Mosley did not were Whitaker, Quartey, Tito (the last two were brutalising the division when DLH arrived), Sturm (yes still hanging around at the top at middle) and BHOP. I wouldn't say DLH faced lesser opposition. Infact, I would say that is superior right there and by quite some ways! Forrest other than Mosley, didn't beat a soul, he hit hard, but had ordinary generalship when pressured and a very sloppy jab. He can't even compare to a prime Tito. Wink on the other hand, doesn't compare to BHOP.
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