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31 August 2011

By: Phil D. Jay

Legendary trainer sees Mayweather and Pacquiao in trouble

Angelo Dundee, the former trainer of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard amongst others, has chosen Juan Manuel Marquez and Victor Ortiz to pull off shock victories in their respective bouts against the world’s two premier fighters Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Dundee, who turned 90 yesterday, chatted to Lem Satterfield of RingTV.com yesterday and also explained his view on a potential clash between Mayweather and Pacquiao themselves if the two welterweights can agree on a future meeting.

"Tough fight,” pondered Dundee.

“ But if I had a fighter to choose to fight against Mayweather, it would be one who fights like Ortiz. Result? Tough split-decision but Ortiz may be the winner.

"Marquez will give Pacquiao a tough fight every day that they're alive. Another tough fight, like I said. Probably Pacquiao's toughest fight, because Marquez is a guy who knows how to fight him. Decision split – Marquez," he added.

Dundee then gave his view on a Mayweather v Pacquiao bout: "Mayweather wins. I just don't know why Mayweather's not fighting him," said Dundee. "He walks around saying that he's the best fighter in the world? Well, fight the sucker. I think that he beats Pacquiao."

The Bookmakers don’t seem to agree with the hall of famer trainer and have Pacquiao at 1/10 and Mayweather at 1/8 to come out on top in their 147lb title bouts.

Unquote.

Link:
http://www.worldboxingnews.net/2011/08/ang...-and-ortiz.html


Hmm... what predictions by the great Angelo Dundee. To me, his choices - other than a likely Mayweather victory over Pacquiao - sort of go against all I think I know, and indeed against smart money, but... what do I know? Not being an escapist though as anything is possible in boxing. Bottom line: I've always favored Mayweather over Ortiz/Pacquiao; and Pacquiao over Marquez/Ortiz, again based on the totality of what I've seen and think I know.

P34c3

quote name='duwdu' date='Sep 1 2011, 10:39 PM' post='534384']
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Dundee, who turned 90 yesterday, [/quote]

I think the mystery is solved right here.

Haha that will be the nail hit right on the head. Senility is a cruel thing. If I had any faith in that prediction id stick a tenner on it and live like a king for at least a full weekend

Yeah, I thought of the senelity factor too, but chose not to take that way out. I was hoping that some would come up with more arguments that could lend a bit of credence to Dundee's upset choices, but I guess we've probably already heard most.

It is just that some writers sometimes choose to self-censor to bolster their own opinion.

P34c3

To be honest I've heard Dundee make some dumb picks down the years. Can't remember exact occasions but I know that he has. He really is a lot like Teddy Atlas, obviously a great trainer but fucken lousy at picking big fights.

I sometimes wonder if these kind of experts sometimes get carried away with proving they've got a great 'eye' rather than just seeing the obvious that is in front of them.

DEAD ON.

Nobody is worse at making picks than Max Kellerman. But betting Ortiz and Marquez parlay will net you a nice sum, no harm in betting $10 on it.

JMM vs. Pacman can go two ways, it can be similar to JMM vs PAC II and be competitive, or it can be like Pac-Morales III and be a blowout. I am leaning towards the blowout, and thus sending JMM into retirement, cocaine, and fishnet stockings.

If Ortiz hurts FMJ early (and that is not out of the question) half of Dundee's delusional prophecy could come true, but it would nearly undoubtedly have to be by stoppage. I don't think Ortiz gets a SD out of this unless he wins a minimum of 9 rounds.

If Pac comes in with the attitude that he is going to take JMM out early and fails, I could see JMM winning the fight and (once again) losing the decision. This scenario is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility given Pac's financial success and overwhelming popularity. He may not want to endure the torture of another 12 rounds with JMM and as a result doom himself to exactly that.

Both scenarios are unlikely but I'm still doing chants every morning to the omnipotent figment of my imagination for the parlay to hit

As fantastical as the two upsets coming in may be, Beardo has talked it up for so long that I may just have to lay ten on it, just so that if it comes in, i'm not filled with that horrible regret of not listening to someone.

I have seen the day where I would have wanted them both to win to set up the megafight, but that shit has rumbled on so long that I hope Floyd and Pac get crushed then the fans they have cheated for so long can laugh right in their faces and the pay day goes up in smoke.

Would it be a step too far for me to hope that once JMM and Ortiz win by KO, they fight eachother and JMM goes out as a unified welterweight champion?

I would not grudge you folks, Smarty, lloyd, and may be others, if your wishes were to come to pass; hell, may be Angelo has actually been reading your posts and has based his predictions off them... lol. It's just that I would elect to earn my bet cents elsewhere...

P34c3

As would any smart man. However, were the impossible to happen, and I hadnt bet on it, id have to read on here about how Smarty spent his winnings and saying I told you so. That would just hurt too much.

I think the Ortiz-Mayweather fight will be tougher than expected....but a U.D. victory for Mayweather nonetheless.

Pacquiao vs Marquez 3.....There is a reason Pacquiao ran from Marquez all this time and hasnt fought a boxer with the kind of talent Marquez has...but even so there is also a reason he waited so long to take the fight again and just now accepted it. marquez isnt the same fighter he once was...he is still good but has began to sho his age and slow down a bit IMO...and at 144lbs this will not be a good showing for him against the Catchweight king. Pacquiao wins via K.O.


Mayweather vs Pacquiao....I honestly see as a big disappointment for all based on the hype and "want" for the fight. I think after the 1st couple rounds Mayweather handles Pacquiao pretty easily....Pac to me hasnt changed since the last time he fought Marquez and has been fighting the right guys at the right times....his skill doesnt match his hype.

So I dont think Dundee is that far off besides his Marquez-Pacman prediction.

You left out this part:

"I'm warning you: I'm the worst fight picker that you will ever meet. I'm a great analyst, but I'm the worst picker," said Dundee. "Now, I ain't crazy, I'm just Angelo Dundee, and I'm a just really bad fight picker."

There's only one guy more irrelevant than Angelo Dundee at this point. His Name? Bert Randolph Sugar.

You're better off betting those fights separately. Parlays only make sense mathematically if the events overlap. In this case, they are 2 months apart.

He's good at picking horses.

Gambling never makes sense mathematically, hasn't stopped me before.

Idk about that, Bert Sugar is a boxing historian and could forget more than you and I will ever know. He's usually pretty accurate in his fight picks, last wrong one i remember is he picked Mosley over Mayweather. The difference between Dundee and Sugar(besides 16 years in age) is that Sugar is an analyst where Dundee is a trainer

I disagree.

One good thing about high payoff parlays where the events DO NOT over lap is that if your first leg wins, then you have an opportunity to hedge on the second leg, ESPECIALLY if your first leg wager was the long shot of the two.

Lets say the Ortiz fight was first, and he won. And you had Paq as the second leg of the Parlay, and you stood to make a $1000 on a $100 bet. Well, you could turn around and bet JMM (who's a clear underdog) and guarantee that you will make money no matter what happens.

For example, I have a 3 team parlay for week one of NFL. $150 to win $850. I have The Eagles (-5.5) over the Rams/Lions (+3) over Buccaneers/Patriots (-6.5) over the Dolphins. The Eagles and the Lions both play on Sun. The Pats play on Mon night.

If the first two teams win, then I could turn around Mon night and put money on the Dolphins ML for a phat payout that will guarantee I win money. Will it ultimately eat into my winnings if the Pats win? Yeah. But it will also guarantee that I win $ period.

One should also keep in mind that HBO pays Bert to hype fights.

You can hedge your bet anyhow.

Where did you get that info from?

He's a columnist for HBO so i guess you are right that he is compensated for writing about upcoming fights but to say that his journalistic integrity is waived solely to pump a fight might be going over the line. I think he picks who he honestly believes would win in a given fight

It's true. Days of the fight and leading up to it, you'll find Bert in the media room doing radio shows all over the country promoting the fight. It's no secret.

No you can't.

Journalistic integrity? What does he write? He walks around with an unlit cigar in his mouth and hobnobs at the big fights. His opinion is irrelevant anymore. Well, at least to me.

He's in the industry, his opinion is highly sought after. He was the editor of The Ring and has written over 80 books regarding boxing, when big fights come along they ask trainers like Manny Steward and Jeff Mayweather their opinions. Dan Rafael is all over ESPN but it doesn't mean they pay him to pick a certain way as to add more credibility to a fight

Bet however you like. Folks that make their livings doing this never bet parlays. I'll leave it at that.

I don't think he's that stupid.

Bert is paid to promote the fights. Not sure how else to explain that to you. It behooves HBO to have the perception out there of a competitive fight with a chance at an upset.

His opinion is highly sought after by whom?

He's irrelevant, or should be, to anyone that knows anything. That's why you never ever see him being discussed or referenced around these parts (save for this thread).


Hell, I value the opinions of many here way more than that of Bert Sugar.

My predictions will remain solid, Ortiz and Pacquiao have the first 4 rounds to make a statement (KO), or Pacquiao will once again be faced with the remainder of those knock-down drag-out rounds that he and Marquez shared twice before. Ortiz on the other hand will be stuck dealing with 12 rounds of a "faint contest" and getting wacked with straight rights...another Mayweather/Mosley repeat. Ortiz handled Berto for the first 5 rounds and could've got him out of there before the 6th round...where Ortiz's corner was getting ready to throw in the towel when Berto landed that bomb. Up to that point, Ortiz was never confused or frustrated against Berto, but frustration will be a factor on the 17th if he doesn't send Mayweather to the moon in the early rounds.

As far as the "Big Fight" is concerned...well, Im no longer throwing my frisbee at that cross-eyed puppy. If I want to continue enjoying the sport for what it is, then it's best that I leave that subject alone.

He's written over 80 books and writes columns for different magazines, dudes is like 75, just published a book this year "The Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists" with Teddy Atlas. His opinion is respected in the industry and imo he has done enough to warrant respect from myself, a 24 year old who has only been following the sweet science for 15 years. Why is his opinion irrelevant to you? Is he not at every major event getting firsthand looks at each fight and fighter? Do you think you follow the sport more closely than he does at his advanced age?

Arnold Schwazenager and Sly Stallone are at every major fight too. So are Jay Z and Beyonce. Does that make their opinion any more relevant? I dont think Sugar follows the sport all that close to be honest. Probably a few of the majors. He's a carnival act at this point.

Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists. Hmmm. Sounds like original, must read material. Why would such an astute guy like that need Teddy Atlas?

He's like the band that comes out with the Greatest of the Greatest of the Greatest Hits CD. You're young, though. You'll catch on soon enough.

I'd be willing to match wits with anyone on fights of the last 25 years, the man has seen a lot and has built a life around the sport. i value anyones opinion thats been around the sport that long. He's written a lot of books and articles and is at every major fight. i'm not saying you don't know the game, but what accolades do you have that trumps him?

Is this the same guy with the wet cigar hanging from his lip and wears that flower-pot hat? Yeah, that's a veeeery credible source. (Sarcasm)

What accolades does Bert Sugar have again?

Ask some of the guys around here (and in the industry) that share the media rooms with Sugar. You ask them how much of an AX he is in calling the fights. Dont take my word for it. Ask some people that actually see him at the events.

The guy is a caricature of himself at this point.

I bet you follow the sport more closely than he does.

He is a creepy old dude. Very creepy.

I would love to get the opinion from some of the guys who are in the industry(Hype?).

I mean he was editor and publisher at The Ring and wrote over 80 books. He owned boxing illustrated, he's in the IBHOF, he was called "The Greatest Boxing Writer of the 20th Century" by the International Veterans Boxing Association.

Maybe i'm wrong but his accolades have warranted my respect the same way trainers and fighters from previous eras have.

Like that old dude that comes a knockin up on the door in Poltergeist 2 kind of creepy?

Like fawning over some chick 50 years his junior at the bar creepy. For her sake, I hope she was a worker. There are groupies out there though that will sit and talk with him no matter how creepy he seems.

He's a carnie, dude.

sig worthy, lol

That was my immediate thought. In most cases, old age (slowly) eradicates your marbles.

Age doesnt mean you dont know anything about boxing or have lost your marbles....take a guy like Bouie Fisher who was still training and giving very good advice to Hopkins in his 70s.....I disagree with there being 2 upsets but the Mayweather-Ortiz fight will be closer than anyone expects....Dundees opinion though should be respected just like everyone elses...if people can respect what Larry Merchant has to say they can respect Dundee lol.

Bouie Fisher and Training, especially in his 70's...are two words that shouldn't really be combined in the same sentence. I love Bouie, but he wasnt doing much "training" those last few years w Hopkins. It was all Naazim.

I've seen that video before and I'm still to decide who's the creepier out of those 2.

Sugar looks like the type of old man that would fake a stroke to get on the floor and start looking up dresses.

Thats the first time iv ever clapped eyes on Leon after a few years of just hearing about him on here from the guys who were here for years, I must admit, he looks like a bit of a penis.

Bert Sugar has become a caricature of himself

I dunno....I think Bouie did a great job and Naazim learned from him. Naaz was always the loud voice yelling from the corner but Bouie gave all the advice in the corner. It seems also that after Bouie retired B-Hop didnt use his jab nearly as much.

MAN....I WOULD LOVE for this to happen!

That would be the biggest bend over and take it to both PBF and Pac...lol

Two dudes take them out and then their mega fight that was worth so much...now would mean so little!

I would find that shit to be the BEST joke ever played on two dipshit champions that never got it together to fight one another!