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du365
Prime for Prime, how do you see Prime Oscar handling Prime Pacquiao, Mayweather and Ortiz?
gravytrain
i give Mayweather the best chance of winning. Ortiz and Pac would get tore up. i see Pac getting stopped in 4 and Ortiz maybe making it 6 rounds.
Cshel86
I would still have to give this Floyd, hands down. He broke him down verbally over the course of the build up, so Oscar was almost out of the fight before it even began. Then Mayweather's skill and speed does the trick, though he lacks the power to hurt Oscar. Ortiz would be a victim of Oscar's jab all night, and the left hook would've made it's mark sooner than later. Of course, Pacquiao beat a De La Hoya with no pulse whatsoever, but Oscar signed for the fight, so whose fault was it? A prime Oscar would keep Pacquiao at bay with the jab (of course), but he would have to somewhat weather Pac's speed, but would his (Pac's) punches hurt him, I doubt it.
EAlbian
This is a hard question to answer.

I think Mayweather vs DLH is closer than their 2006 fight but if the fight is @147 I see Mayweather being able to do the same things in most spots and Oscar loses the size advantage. It all depends on if Oscar abandons his jab or not(a consistent probably he had in fights) and if Floyd can bite down and fight in spots.

Pac is difficult because we haven't seen a bigger taller fighter be able to keep him at bay and outbox him. De La Hoya can't fight on the inside and goes to the ropes(see Vargas) easily. Pac is a machine and can rip shots with power like no one i have ever seen. If Oscar tries to cover up i see him caving at some point and maybe a referee stoppage. This fight is contingent on if Oscar can dictate the pace and counter Manny. De La Hoya would have to weather the storm and hold up long enough for Manny to lose focus and maybe catch him with a rocket left hook coming in impatiently.

Ortiz is tough but not as tough and as strong as Vargas. To me he's a more skilled Vargas with less of what made Vargas, Vargas. We all know what happened there and i think we see that earlier with greater ease
mrchitown
I think a prime Oscar would destroy Ortiz. He'd take a beating worsebthen he did in the Maidana fight. De la Hoya in his prime vs Pacquio would have been a slug fest, but I'd pick De la Hoya because of his height, jab, and that left hook. Him and Floyd.....I would have to pick Floyd by SD. I say that because of his defense, speed, and his athleticism. Speed guys, even in Oscar's prime gave him trouble.
Big Slim Sweet
Ortiz doesn't even belong in the conversation right now. Mayweather and Pacquiao would probably both pose even a prime Oscar a lot of trouble because of their superior speed, which he always struggled with as a welterweight. Not sure what anyone might point to to suggest DLH blows out either man in his prime. Could he land a game changer against Manny Pac? Maybe. But Pac appears to be able to take a welterweight shot pretty well.

I have both Floyd and Manny by UD, in obviously much closer fights than the real ones were.
and the NEW
Why is Ortiz even in the conversation? That kinda ruins this thread.

FWIW I also think a prime Mayweather was much earlier in his career as seems to prove the case for a lot of these guys who fight from a young age at a high level. They suffer wear and tear much quicker, not to mention, probably lose motivation and hunger after so many years in the sport.
BlueMercury
Kills Ortiz, Landslide UD over Pac, and vs Floyd well maybe a Draw at best.
sduck
Mayweather vs Oscar would go either way
Pac vs Oscar would go to Oscar UD 12 (whether it would be close or not)
Ortiz vs Oscar would go to Oscar by stoppage by 6th to 8th round

There's no way Oscar would stop Pac in 4. Why is Ortiz apart of this?

QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 1 2011, 10:16 PM) *
This is a hard question to answer.

I think Mayweather vs DLH is closer than their 2006 fight but if the fight is @147 I see Mayweather being able to do the same things in most spots and Oscar loses the size advantage. It all depends on if Oscar abandons his jab or not(a consistent probably he had in fights) and if Floyd can bite down and fight in spots.

Pac is difficult because we haven't seen a bigger taller fighter be able to keep him at bay and outbox him. De La Hoya can't fight on the inside and goes to the ropes(see Vargas) easily. Pac is a machine and can rip shots with power like no one i have ever seen. If Oscar tries to cover up i see him caving at some point and maybe a referee stoppage. This fight is contingent on if Oscar can dictate the pace and counter Manny. De La Hoya would have to weather the storm and hold up long enough for Manny to lose focus and maybe catch him with a rocket left hook coming in impatiently.

Ortiz is tough but not as tough and as strong as Vargas. To me he's a more skilled Vargas with less of what made Vargas, Vargas. We all know what happened there and i think we see that earlier with greater ease

What? I heavily disagree with the Pac vs Oscar part. He fought a dead Oscar and couldn't literally stop him then, they just threw in the towel because that version of Oscar was taking too much punishment and couldn't fight back.
EAlbian
QUOTE (sduck @ Sep 2 2011, 05:59 AM) *
Mayweather vs Oscar would go either way
Pac vs Oscar would go to Oscar UD 12 (whether it would be close or not)
Ortiz vs Oscar would go to Oscar by stoppage by 6th to 8th round

There's no way Oscar would stop Pac in 4. Why is Ortiz apart of this?


What? I heavily disagree with the Pac vs Oscar part. He fought a dead Oscar and couldn't literally stop him then, they just threw in the towel because that version of Oscar was taking too much punishment and couldn't fight back.


I'm not basing it off of their fight i'm basing it off of what i"ve seen of Oscar vs faster and stronger opponents. When you throw at Oscar he covers up and goes to the ropes and he can't fight inside. Pac can throw fast shots rapid fire with power in bulk and i think down the stretch De La Hoya would need to time him and move enough to weather the storm. If he lays against the ropes like he did in the Vargas fight he gets stopped. Its a hard fight to call because Oscar never fought a fighter like Manny who has such quick hands and feet and can throw with power. Manny has never fought anyone that has that much height who can really box with jabbing attack. Oscar fades in fights and Manny loses focus, it comes down to who does what first. Its a pick 'em fight imo.
Cshel86
I compared Oscar's performance against Quartey, before his bout with Mayweather in '07. Mayweather's speed and defense gave him the upper hand in the fight, but we all know that he didn't have the power to hurt a prime Oscar at 147 or 154. I think most of that pre-fight trash talk got to Oscar mentally as well. I think a welterweight Oscar would've been more game fighting Floyd, if Floyd was at his welterweight prime during that same time frame.
sduck
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 2 2011, 10:42 AM) *
I'm not basing it off of their fight i'm basing it off of what i"ve seen of Oscar vs faster and stronger opponents. When you throw at Oscar he covers up and goes to the ropes and he can't fight inside. Pac can throw fast shots rapid fire with power in bulk and i think down the stretch De La Hoya would need to time him and move enough to weather the storm. If he lays against the ropes like he did in the Vargas fight he gets stopped. Its a hard fight to call because Oscar never fought a fighter like Manny who has such quick hands and feet and can throw with power. Manny has never fought anyone that has that much height who can really box with jabbing attack. Oscar fades in fights and Manny loses focus, it comes down to who does what first. Its a pick 'em fight imo.

I don't remember seeing that side of Oscar but okay. You probably might know more then I do because I haven't watched too many of Oscar's fights.
du365
QUOTE (sduck @ Sep 2 2011, 07:47 PM) *
I don't remember seeing that side of Oscar but okay. You probably might know more then I do because I haven't watched too many of Oscar's fights.



Yeah PRIME Oscar was a beast.
streetlion1
No doubt in my mind a prime DLH wipes the ring with all 3 guys.....Pac and Ortiz would get destroyed....Mayweather would do a little better but also get stopped in the late rounds.
EAlbian
QUOTE (sduck @ Sep 2 2011, 06:47 PM) *
I don't remember seeing that side of Oscar but okay. You probably might know more then I do because I haven't watched too many of Oscar's fights.


Whats Oscars best win in his prime? Vargas? was that the best Oscar? he was like 29 and hadn't fought in a year and some change. Quartey? did he even win that fight? i thought Ike had it by a round. Oscar was competitive always but was far from great, would Quartey beat Pac? I think Pac gives everyone trouble @147
Method
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 2 2011, 11:15 PM) *
Whats Oscars best win in his prime? Vargas? was that the best Oscar? he was like 29 and hadn't fought in a year and some change. Quartey? did he even win that fight? i thought Ike had it by a round. Oscar was competitive always but was far from great, would Quartey beat Pac? I think Pac gives everyone trouble @147

Oscar's best win was a Prime Trinidad. His other best win was the Mosley rematch. Vargas was a solid win A.) Because of the grudge, and A2.) Because Vargas was roided to Bejesus, looking to win at all costs, and got KTFO after talking all kinds of shit.

A semi-retired DLH got a split decision loss to PBF. I think a Prime Fish Nets does better. Then again what's to say if a Prime DLH tests Maywether that PBF doesn't dig in and let that dog out (ala Mosley)?

I think a prime ODL/Paq are a good matchup too. War of attrition.

...and whatever the outcome of a prime Ortiz fight, I'm just not going to entertain it because as has already been said, no matter how good Ortiz may (or may not) be, he honestly doesnt deserve to be in the conversation just because Mayweather decided to give him a shot. Ortiz has not yet done enough to be in this mix. Let him earn his way into the history books.
streetlion1
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 2 2011, 10:15 PM) *
Whats Oscars best win in his prime? Vargas? was that the best Oscar? he was like 29 and hadn't fought in a year and some change. Quartey? did he even win that fight? i thought Ike had it by a round. Oscar was competitive always but was far from great, would Quartey beat Pac? I think Pac gives everyone trouble @147

Gotta disagree here....a prime Pacman would still get handled pretty easily at 147 by a young Mosley, Trinidad, Quartey, and destroyed by DLH.

Pacman is good but his quality of fights at 147 whether it be catchweight fights, fighting guys who are old or at the right time would never compare to the fights DLH had. To me Pacquiao's skills are overrated....the last prime fighter who is a true boxer/counter puncher that wasnt made to drop weight was Marquez in 08 and we all saw how that fight went.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 2 2011, 10:31 PM) *
Oscar's best win was a Prime Trinidad. His other best win was the Mosley rematch. Vargas was a solid win A.) Because of the grudge, and A2.) Because Vargas was roided to Bejesus, looking to win at all costs, and got KTFO after talking all kinds of shit.

A semi-retired DLH got a split decision loss to PBF. I think a Prime Fish Nets does better. Then again what's to say if a Prime DLH tests Maywether that PBF doesn't dig in and let that dog out (ala Mosley)?

I think a prime ODL/Paq are a good matchup too. War of attrition.

...and whatever the outcome of a prime Ortiz fight, I'm just not going to entertain it because as has already been said, no matter how good Ortiz may (or may not) be, he honestly doesnt deserve to be in the conversation just because Mayweather decided to give him a shot. Ortiz has not yet done enough to be in this mix. Let him earn his way into the history books.


Oscar gave away the Trinidad fight, re-watch that one bro. The fight was 12 rounds and he fought for 9 . The second Mosley fight was a good fight for him but I dont think it was more than a 2 point fight. Vargas was his best win for sure but i think Oscar was his best, could do the most, in the Trinidad and even in the first Mosley fight. He lost both, he's good not great. Always competitive but never really dominant at that level
EAlbian
QUOTE (streetlion1 @ Sep 2 2011, 10:42 PM) *
Gotta disagree here....a prime Pacman would still get handled pretty easily at 147 by a young Mosley, Trinidad, Quartey, and destroyed by DLH.

Pacman is good but his quality of fights at 147 whether it be catchweight fights, fighting guys who are old or at the right time would never compare to the fights DLH had. To me Pacquiao's skills are overrated....the last prime fighter who is a true boxer/counter puncher that wasnt made to drop weight was Marquez in 08 and we all saw how that fight went.


Idk about that, none of those guys have seen something like Pac and until i see him look truly mortal i gotta say he gives anyone at 147 trouble
Method
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 2 2011, 11:51 PM) *
Idk about that, none of those guys have seen something like Pac and until i see him look truly mortal i gotta say he gives anyone at 147 trouble

You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?
Cshel86
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 2 2011, 11:56 PM) *
You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?

People seem to wanna overlook this for some odd reason...
gravytrain
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 2 2011, 11:56 PM) *
You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?


i don't even see how people think he hasn't looked mortal in fights he's won. he's been busted up above 140 by everyone except completely shot fighters like Mosley and DLH. a prime DLH vs a prime Pac and i'll take DLH any day.

streetlion1
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 2 2011, 10:56 PM) *
You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?

Exactly my thinking....as well as whipped by Morales in 05....and Marquez beat him up pretty good and arguably won both fights. I think people just fall in love with his all action/offensive style but somehow they dont notice how easy he is to hit, that he cant fight backing up, and that the guys he has been destroying since moving up had to either drop weight or they were old for the most part. Clottey didnt even show up....from me he gets the credit for beating Cotto but still he had Cotto drain himself 2 pounds.

As a fan I like Manny and respect him but I dont see him as the monster that people make him out to be.
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 3 2011, 03:56 AM) *
You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?



QUOTE (cshel86 @ Sep 3 2011, 04:04 AM) *
People seem to wanna overlook this for some odd reason...


Are those losses relevant at this time?
Method
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 3 2011, 02:18 AM) *
i don't even see how people think he hasn't looked mortal in fights he's won. he's been busted up above 140 by everyone except completely shot fighters like Mosley and DLH. a prime DLH vs a prime Pac and i'll take DLH any day.

Both Cotto and Margarito had him hospitalized after their respective fights - Margarito did so for a prolonged stay. Manny was cancelling political engagements weeks later.
Cshel86
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Sep 3 2011, 11:11 AM) *
Are those losses relevant at this time?

If they haven't disappeared from his record, then yes. They were so long ago, and I dont care to really make a big deal out of it nowadays...but they are still there.
lloyd mayflower
Im aware they wont drop off his record, but are they relevant when considering his abilities present day, at 147? When considering someones chances in a fight, I think people can get a little skewed by records. The Manny of 96 and 99 when he lost fights by TKO bears no resemblance to the fighter we see today, so I feel that when considering his current chances, they mean fuck all hence they get overlooked.

However, you get examples like Ortiz. I think its fair to question his chances in a fight based on the manner of his loss to Maidana and how recent it was.
Cshel86
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Sep 3 2011, 12:44 PM) *
Im aware they wont drop off his record, but are they relevant when considering his abilities present day, at 147? When considering someones chances in a fight, I think people can get a little skewed by records. The Manny of 96 and 99 when he lost fights by TKO bears no resemblance to the fighter we see today, so I feel that when considering his current chances, they mean fuck all hence they get overlooked.

However, you get examples like Ortiz. I think its fair to question his chances in a fight based on the manner of his loss to Maidana and how recent it was.

I agree, and the only loss of Manny's that I can even look back on is the Morales fight...if Im looking at how he performs against pure boxers. His first two losses are no big concern of mine, but they are still on his record. Yeah Ortiz is gonna have to carry that loss with him for longer than he wishes to, and its funny how nobody really brings up his first loss or his first draw.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 2 2011, 10:56 PM) *
You didnt see him truly mortal when he got KTFO twice?


When he was like 18 and had only been fighting for 2 years against men who had way more experience than him? Obviously those losses have a baring on his career but it's like comparing it to early losses in others careers, he has transcended as a fighter . I'm not a Pac lover at all I just think you guys are totally underestimating the guy. I think he's active and fast enough to be more than compete with De La Hoya, Quartey, and Trinidad as well as any other 147lb fighter. Guess that's just me. I don't think he beats everyone I just think he is competitive and each guy would have to be on their game to beat him. When's the last time we saw PAC get dropped? Seriously hurt? He's looked pretty superhuman as of recent against guys he shouldn't have beaten that easily. Maybe it's PEDs but I think it's just him. I think Mayweather beats him as well as others but until I see that I'm not going to discredit him. Maybe that was all Clottey was able to do without getting stopped
Mean Mister Mustard
A prime DLH had better speed and stamina than the 2007 version but I'm not sure if that DLH still beats Mayweather. Like others here have mentioned, DLH has always struggled with slick boxers who jab a lot and Mayweather is that type of fighter. Yes, their 2007 fight was close, but while that DLH lacked the superior stamina and speed of the younger version, he was still more poised, and had a few little tricks up his sleeve. The younger DLH ,on the other hand, usually came into the ring tense and usually struggled in adjusting.

His chances of beating Pacquiao are better, though it would still be a very hard fight seeing as how Pacquiao is a speed demon, and a southpaw to boot. Let's remember DLH never had a good right with which to keep southpaws honest.
Method
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 3 2011, 03:50 PM) *
When he was like 18 and had only been fighting for 2 years against men who had way more experience than him? Obviously those losses have a baring on his career but it's like comparing it to early losses in others careers, he has transcended as a fighter . I'm not a Pac lover at all I just think you guys are totally underestimating the guy. I don't think he beats everyone

What do you know of the two guy that beat him...and their experience.

Also, the contention was his mortality. If you admit that you dont think he beats everyone, by definition, you admit he is mortal. I said as much just based on the fact that he has been KTFO twice already. An IMMORTAL would not have been.
GINOROS
QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 1 2011, 09:45 PM) *
I agree with gravy.

Oscar beats Pacquiao IMO, and Ortiz, well that shouldn't be a question, Oscar destroys him.

Mayweather has the best chance, and a very close fight, but I keep picturing the version Mayweather fought, and came away with a SD, can't help but think a prime Oscar does better and squeaks out a decision.

I always hate it when people talk about that particular fight and harp on the SD.

It wasn't close. One judge got it TOTALLY wrong. Floyd won 8 rounds.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 3 2011, 05:05 PM) *
What do you know of the two guy that beat him...and their experience.

Also, the contention was his mortality. If you admit that you dont think he beats everyone, by definition, you admit he is mortal. I said as much just based on the fact that he has been KTFO twice already. An IMMORTAL would not have been.


You're talking about it like i'm saying he's always been great, obviously i dont think he's of divinity. I dont know much about the opponents he lost to other than video on youtube, google, and boxrec. he's obviously much better than that now though. He's an anomaly. Carefully matched or not he's walked through everyone that he's faced 135 and on. Clottey landed punches when he could, good shots and Manny ate them. He shut out a big strong legit welterweight. Cotto won 1 maybe 2 rounds? a guy people still regard as a legit 154lber, best in the division by some standards. Margarito although already having his chin cracked by Mosley landed one shot on him, and took a terrible beating. The Mosley fight should never have happened. He's walked through them all, that shouldnt be disregarded and until i see someone being competitive with him i can't discredit his work. He's done things in the last couple of years that if i had said in 2008 you would all look at me like I was nuts. There are no other fighters that have been able to go up the scales like him and thoroughly dismantle the guy in front of him. In that respect he hasn't looked mortal. I understand the matchmaking may have been topnotch but that doesnt totally discredit what he's been able to do. I think he's tough to beat for any 147lber until i see someone able to win more than 4 rounds against him i'll stand by it. Lets see if Marquez can be that guy.
Method
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 3 2011, 09:02 PM) *
You're talking about it like i'm saying he's always been great, obviously i dont think he's of divinity. I dont know much about the opponents he lost to other than video on youtube, google, and boxrec. he's obviously much better than that now though. He's an anomaly. Carefully matched or not he's walked through everyone that he's faced 135 and on. Clottey landed punches when he could, good shots and Manny ate them. He shut out a big strong legit welterweight. Cotto won 1 maybe 2 rounds? a guy people still regard as a legit 154lber, best in the division by some standards. Margarito although already having his chin cracked by Mosley landed one shot on him, and took a terrible beating. The Mosley fight should never have happened. He's walked through them all, that shouldnt be disregarded and until i see someone being competitive with him i can't discredit his work. He's done things in the last couple of years that if i had said in 2008 you would all look at me like I was nuts. There are no other fighters that have been able to go up the scales like him and thoroughly dismantle the guy in front of him. In that respect he hasn't looked mortal. I understand the matchmaking may have been topnotch but that doesnt totally discredit what he's been able to do. I think he's tough to beat for any 147lber until i see someone able to win more than 4 rounds against him i'll stand by it. Lets see if Marquez can be that guy.

I agree Paq is better now than then. I also am a fan, inso far as I will always watch him fight. He goes out there and gets after it.
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (GINOROS @ Sep 3 2011, 10:22 PM) *
I always hate it when people talk about that particular fight and harp on the SD.

It wasn't close. One judge got it TOTALLY wrong. Floyd won 8 rounds.


In your opinion, of course.
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