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SENTRAL
Floyd Mayweather is quite possibly the most overrated fighter of all time.  Ever.  In the history of boxing.  Seriously I am not setting out to diminish the talents of the man but I've come to the conclusion he is by far the most overrated boxer I have ever had the pleasure to watch.  I would agree with the majority of ardent boxing followers that Floyd Mayweather was an exceptionally talented super featherweight and he produced his best work at this weight class.  He was a hungry fighter back then who reached fantastical performances against genuine threats to his undefeated record and world titles.  His victory over the late Diego Corrales was awe inspiring.  Clinical, ferocious, beautiful. I could see every reason to place Mayweather amongst the top 2 super featherweight champions of all time.  Let us remember, since it's inception in 1963 the WBC title, which Floyd held in such dominating fashion, has been held by less than 30 fighters. 
Mayweather ranks higher in this weight category than any of the others he has boxed in because he was a genuinely marvelous 130Ib fighter.  Some may say Arguello was the best at 130, others will point to Chavez and there will also be mentions for the likes of Nelson, Elorde, Escallera, Serranoand the often overlooked Brian Mitchell.  

I wouldn't entertain debating the legitimacy of those who say he was the very best 130Ib'er as I couldn't make an argument strong enough to dispute such a notion.

So where do we place Mayweather amongst the historically much deeper lightweight division, a weight class steeped in some of the sports most amazing fighters?  OK, let's make this easy.  Let's include him in a list which stretches back just 30 years to start off with.  Whitaker takes the number one spot here without question because he spent the majority of his career there, dominated all comers and unified the titles.  Mosley also ranks above him here.  His body of work far exceeds Mayweathers at lightweight, absolutely and conclusively, as does that of Chavez.  Floyd boxed just 4 times at 135, arguably losing the first match-up against Castillo and only managing to stop Phillip Ndou before he opted to move up to light welterweight.  So if Floyd doesn't make the top 3 from the past 30 years at lightweight it is pointless in going further back in history to the likes of Duran, Leonard, Gans, Williams, Armstrong and Ross.

In 2004 Floyd Mayweather, his reputation already far exceeding his true standing, moved to light welterweight, a division at the time blessed with some very talented fighters.  It was a move up which boxing fans eagerly anticipated seeing him challenged again for the first time since the Castillo fights almost 2 years earlier..  Kostas Tszyu and Miguel Cotto were the names he should have fought.  Instead Floyd opted to meet DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti.  A stunningly abysmal resume at 140 and in no way could he ever rank all time above the likes of Tszyu, Pryor, Locche, Ross and McFarland, amongst the many others who have graced a wonderfully talent laden division.

Failing to accomplish anything of major significance at 140 Floyd chose to move up and compete in the welterweight division.  I actually believe it is futile to even begin to imagine how anybody with even a passing historical knowledge of boxing could place him anywhere near the top 10 of fighters who have graced 147. 

Are those who believe the hype merely hypnotized by the myth Floyd has created for himself?  We are talking just 12 fights since the 2nd Castillo bout in 2002, and the glaring omissions on his resume leave him open for questions he has no answer to.  There is no Tszyu, there is no Cotto, there is no Margarito, there is no Williams and there is no Pacquiao.  Hatton was made to move up to a division he had already proven to be ineffective at.  He didn't even bother making the stipulated weight for the Marquez bout despite already being far more accustomed and natural at the heavier poundage. 


Baldimor and Gatti, tonight we had Ortiz.  Floyd Mayweather is absolutely brilliant when it comes to fooling the foolish but when you really analyze his career and his achievements, look further than the flashy performances against cherry picked opposition, his resume is quite pathetic post 130 and I can only feel sympathy and mild embarrassment for those who have bought into the facade which is quite obviously the most overrated fighter of all time.

MODS; why did u delete this thread?
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
I'm wondering the same thing. It seems like a fair topic and is actually not related to the Ortiz fight, Olympic testing or the Man-God Pac.
MrChampagne123
Naw he underrated actually
SENTRAL
QUOTE (MrChampagne123 @ Sep 18 2011, 03:31 AM) *
Naw he underrated actually


If you disagree I'd appreciate a counter argument.
SENTRAL
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Sep 18 2011, 03:01 AM) *
I'm wondering the same thing. It seems like a fair topic and is actually not ryelated to the Ortiz fight, Olympic testing or the Man-God Pac.


I am not a troll or a spammer, I know you know that. Was disappointed to see the thread deleted with no explanation as to why?
MrChampagne123
His chin is vastly underrated. Ortiz is considered a power puncher and his punches had no effect on Money. Money made Ortiz miss at will his defense is maybe better then whittakers. his accuracy is better then any living or none living boxer in history. no boxer ever had a better hit to none hit ratio in boxing. he tagged Ortiz at will and member he was coming off a laypff imagin if he fought asd regualr as Other fighters he would be even sharper. overrated really I think not.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (MrChampagne123 @ Sep 18 2011, 08:54 PM) *
His chin is vastly underrated. Ortiz is considered a power puncher and his punches had no effect on Money. Money made Ortiz miss at will his defense is maybe better then whittakers. his accuracy is better then any living or none living boxer in history. no boxer ever had a better hit to none hit ratio in boxing. he tagged Ortiz at will and member he was coming off a laypff imagin if he fought asd regualr as Other fighters he would be even sharper. overrated really I think not.



Firstly Ortiz never hit him flush so whether his chin could take Victor's shots is a moot point. If you think he's got a better defense than Whittaker then you clearly probably stole the crack pipe Sweetpea was smoking.

His accuracy is better than any living or non-living boxer? How do you guage that?

And let me finish by saying that beating up upon a B-level champ like Victor Ortiz is no yardstick to greatness. SENTRAL took the time to make a point by point analysis of why Mayweather's career is overrated and your riposte is just some vague generalizations that you've pulled out of your ass. You are an embarrassment to Floyd fans.
Box in Hand
The same logic you apply to Floyd can be applied to all of em. This isn't back in the days when fighters fought everyone in and around their divisions. Nowadays the politics and BS stop so many good fights from happening. I can explicitly remember Cotto's folks saying he wasn't ready for Floyd yet. Pacquiao's resume as of late is also suspect. Roy Jones as great as he was also did not fight the best around and the same goes for Tyson. To sit here and call someone overrated who has beaten all of his opponents with the questionable first fight against Castillo is a little harsh. Floyd fought some good fighters and made them look like shit. Tonight he made Ortiz look like a kid and as much as we don't like his personality overrated is not the word we should use to describe him.
HazConvictedFelonMane
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 18 2011, 03:56 AM) *
Floyd Mayweather is quite possibly the most overrated fighter of all time.  Ever.  In the history of boxing.  Seriously I am not setting out to diminish the talents of the man but I've come to the conclusion he is by far the most overrated boxer I have ever had the pleasure to watch.  I would agree with the majority of ardent boxing followers that Floyd Mayweather was an exceptionally talented super featherweight and he produced his best work at this weight class.  He was a hungry fighter back then who reached fantastical performances against genuine threats to his undefeated record and world titles.  His victory over the late Diego Corrales was awe inspiring.  Clinical, ferocious, beautiful. I could see every reason to place Mayweather amongst the top 2 super featherweight champions of all time.  Let us remember, since it's inception in 1963 the WBC title, which Floyd held in such dominating fashion, has been held by less than 30 fighters. 
Mayweather ranks higher in this weight category than any of the others he has boxed in because he was a genuinely marvelous 130Ib fighter.  Some may say Arguello was the best at 130, others will point to Chavez and there will also be mentions for the likes of Nelson, Elorde, Escallera, Serranoand the often overlooked Brian Mitchell.  

I wouldn't entertain debating the legitimacy of those who say he was the very best 130Ib'er as I couldn't make an argument strong enough to dispute such a notion.

So where do we place Mayweather amongst the historically much deeper lightweight division, a weight class steeped in some of the sports most amazing fighters?  OK, let's make this easy.  Let's include him in a list which stretches back just 30 years to start off with.  Whitaker takes the number one spot here without question because he spent the majority of his career there, dominated all comers and unified the titles.  Mosley also ranks above him here.  His body of work far exceeds Mayweathers at lightweight, absolutely and conclusively, as does that of Chavez.  Floyd boxed just 4 times at 135, arguably losing the first match-up against Castillo and only managing to stop Phillip Ndou before he opted to move up to light welterweight.  So if Floyd doesn't make the top 3 from the past 30 years at lightweight it is pointless in going further back in history to the likes of Duran, Leonard, Gans, Williams, Armstrong and Ross.

In 2004 Floyd Mayweather, his reputation already far exceeding his true standing, moved to light welterweight, a division at the time blessed with some very talented fighters.  It was a move up which boxing fans eagerly anticipated seeing him challenged again for the first time since the Castillo fights almost 2 years earlier..  Kostas Tszyu and Miguel Cotto were the names he should have fought.  Instead Floyd opted to meet DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti.  A stunningly abysmal resume at 140 and in no way could he ever rank all time above the likes of Tszyu, Pryor, Locche, Ross and McFarland, amongst the many others who have graced a wonderfully talent laden division.

Failing to accomplish anything of major significance at 140 Floyd chose to move up and compete in the welterweight division.  I actually believe it is futile to even begin to imagine how anybody with even a passing historical knowledge of boxing could place him anywhere near the top 10 of fighters who have graced 147. 

Are those who believe the hype merely hypnotized by the myth Floyd has created for himself?  We are talking just 12 fights since the 2nd Castillo bout in 2002, and the glaring omissions on his resume leave him open for questions he has no answer to.  There is no Tszyu, there is no Cotto, there is no Margarito, there is no Williams and there is no Pacquiao.  Hatton was made to move up to a division he had already proven to be ineffective at.  He didn't even bother making the stipulated weight for the Marquez bout despite already being far more accustomed and natural at the heavier poundage. 


Baldimor and Gatti, tonight we had Ortiz.  Floyd Mayweather is absolutely brilliant when it comes to fooling the foolish but when you really analyze his career and his achievements, look further than the flashy performances against cherry picked opposition, his resume is quite pathetic post 130 and I can only feel sympathy and mild embarrassment for those who have bought into the facade which is quite obviously the most overrated fighter of all time.

MODS; why did u delete this thread?


Blah, Blah, Blah. fuck.gif
JONdaCON817
it took you 7 paragraphs to say the first sentence... juss like a woman.
Allmenjoi8
To say someone is overrated means that you discredit his oppnets as well as his dedication to the sport. You do not go undefeated in a sport that has more upsets than any other. It takes great skill to do so. The people he fought were put in front of him. Baldomire was a title holder so he had to fight, he won. Castillo he fought with an injured shoulder and he won, then gave him a rematch to further prove he deserved the win the first time around. He had been calling out Oscar and Mosely but they both said he wasn't a big enough draw. He wantd to fight Cotto but he is a top rank fighter. Hatton was undefeated and knocking everyone out but against May his record was puffed. Clottely and Margarito would have been boring and a waste of time. To say he is overrated is disrespecful. The Ortiz fight was a good one. Yes the outcome was shakey but it was all legal. Roy Jones did something similar against James Toney. Compare Pacquiao's career like you did May's and tell me who is the puff up fighter... He makes them look average not because he is overrated.
JONdaCON817
QUOTE (Allmenjoi8 @ Sep 18 2011, 10:49 AM) *
To say someone is overrated means that you discredit his oppnets as well as his dedication to the sport. You do not go undefeated in a sport that has more upsets than any other. It takes great skill to do so. The people he fought were put in front of him. Baldomire was a title holder so he had to fight, he won. Castillo he fought with an injured shoulder and he won, then gave him a rematch to further prove he deserved the win the first time around. He had been calling out Oscar and Mosely but they both said he wasn't a big enough draw. He wantd to fight Cotto but he is a top rank fighter. Hatton was undefeated and knocking everyone out but against May his record was puffed. Clottely and Margarito would have been boring and a waste of time. To say he is overrated is disrespecful. The Ortiz fight was a good one. Yes the outcome was shakey but it was all legal. Roy Jones did something similar against James Toney. Compare Pacquiao's career like you did May's and tell me who is the puff up fighter... He makes them look average not because he is overrated.


oooooooooh Cat Fight!!!......
AKay
Come onnnnn.
Overrated?
Come onnnn.
JONdaCON817
Most ppl underrate him IMO... well, speaking of the casual fan. as far as i know hes the only one who claims hes the G.O.A.T.
cwhite25
ok its official you dont know a dam thing about boxing you got know boxing to talk about it
checkleft
By your logic your calling a lot of other fighters overrated.. including pacquiao. I thought pple on boxing forums actually knew something about boxing.
cwhite25
he was winning the fight anyway victor ortiz was loosing the first 3 rounds anyway he never hurt mayweather at all mayweather was laufin at him thru the whole fight it was gon be a 8th round or 9th round knockout anyway wit all the right hands victor was catching floyd showed that layoffs dont do shit to him period and lets b honest if victor ortiz didnt headbutt floyd he wouldnt be in the position his in now....Lets get the facts straight in the 1st place Ortiz is a liar period and his team is too jus look at the facts it says it all. Floyd was in complete control of the fight the only reason Ortiz headbutted him was because he was frustrated cuz he wasnt hurting floyd at all period im jus glad it ended early cuz i seen a badly embarrassing KO in the 8th or 9th round if anybody thot victor was winning that fight they need to put that crack pipe down cuz clearly floyd was winning the fight and was gon win the fight victor didnt have any answer for floyds defense and style even when he got em on the ropes b4 the headbutt he got wit 2 LIL shots and u seen floyd smiling and laufin.....FLOYD had this fight in the bag
cwhite25
QUOTE (checkleft @ Sep 18 2011, 12:53 PM) *
By your logic your calling a lot of other fighters overrated.. including pacquiao. I thought pple on boxing forums actually knew something about boxing.


I thot the same thing
SENTRAL
Some of you are acting incredibly shallow.  Really, you are.  I am not a Floyd Mayweather hater by any means.  I have immense respect for his obvious talents and stated in my post how I rated him as one of the greatest super featherweights of all time.  My claim that he is overrated is legitimate, and more importantly, valid, for the reasons I made in the opening post.  On every message board there are vast swathes of posters who rank Mayweather almost as highly as he ranks himself.  They shamelessly pick him in all manner of fantasy clashes against the elite of the sport and they do this because they have blindly bought into the myth he has created.

I have yet to see one poster disagree with my assertion that he is nowhere near to being the best fighter in any of the subsequent divisions he competed in after his days as a super featherweight.  If he was simply labelled a great fighter who failed to clean out the best opposition of his era I'd be happy to accept his standing in the sport.  However, this isn't the case is it?  There have been and will continue to be many questions as to why he didn't pit his skills against the next best fighters of today.  Ignoring Manny Pac because that is a fight which can still happen.  And should happen and both are guilty, equally guilty, of failing to force that fight through.

There are those who say he is the greatest fighter of all time and this thread was designed to pick at their opinions, to dissect their views with my counter argument that he is only a great super featherweight and nothing more.  There is no shame in that at all.  He will always look good against the choice of opponents he has picked in the last 8 or 9 years.  He's opted to face the C and B level guys and somehow managed to elude those who presented a bigger test.  He's sneaked in through the back door of greatness by manipulating his fan-base, tricking them into believing he is a ring legend.  The opportunity to put this argument to bed, to render it non-existent was there for the taking.  But it eluded him when he took the easier options over those last 8 or 9 years.  History will remember him as a great fighter but it will also struggle to convince future generations that his resume truly warranted claims to P4P greatness.
anthonyaccurate
k, I'll bite. first and foremost, "most overrated of all time" is subjective and clearly hyperbole. a person could easily state and point out that Tyson could be the most overrated fighter of all-time, what great HWs did he beat in their prime, u have idiots who proclaim him to be the best hw of all time, u had people still saying he could win the title years after he faded. same thing Roy, u could substitute his name in your arguments, change a few words, and still essentially the same pointa made. supreme talent, dominate early success, later hand picked opponents, questions of why he didn't fight certain guys, etc. how the hell do you measure overrating anyway?

besides, it took him beating Ortiz to craft this opinion?
checkleft
Dude so has manny, so has Hopkins, so has rj jr, calzaghe and tons of other fighters. Chill out, because its obvious whatever "respect" you have for Floyd is clearly outweighed by your hate towards him in light of your attempt to try and single him out in a generation where cleaning out divisions is far gone, and where boxers constantly trying manipulate their fan base by fighting lesser opposition to put themselves in the conversation for g.o.a.t. happens all the time.
sduck
You only made this thread because you're annoyed by the positive direction this site goes to Floyd, plus all the Floyd fans and Floydiots (which most of them are here because of the After Dark series, plus Floyd continually tweeting Fighthype). I don't see you making a thread on Manny Pacquiao (Yeah linking Pacquiao to a Mayweather thread, yeah yeah). I went to a couple of other boxing forums, and people are acting like Ortidiots (yep crazed Ortiz fans), defending all they can that he's a "victim" and did nothing wrong last night. You got Pacfans calling their fighter GOAT, you got DLH fans calling their fighter GOAT, you got Tyson fans calling their fighter GOAT, you got Jones fans calling their GOAT, so on, so on. They're just fans, some way too diehard, cry about it.

Both him and Pacquiao are at the top because they're great fighters that showcased themselves at the right time, with the right fights, with the right advertising. They're not the only "top" fighters that been doing this. It goes as far back as probably in the Robinson era. Boxing today is at a mute point of competition, it's no where a popular as a sport it used to be, and the level of competition continues to fade out.

I linked you previously to some videos to watch, Floyd-biased of course, but may question the theory of him dodging some specific fighters, and cherry-picking. You never responded to them. sad.gif

One last thing, most people don't even like him, so how could he be the most overrated? Especially after that bullshit fight we just saw last night. I, myself, dislike him even more.
SENTRAL
Sduck, I have no hidden underlying agenda.

Antonyaccurate, the thread was originally posted before the Ortiz fight but a faceless soul deleted it.

So I posted it again.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
QUOTE (cwhite25 @ Sep 18 2011, 09:55 AM) *
he was winning the fight anyway victor ortiz was loosing the first 3 rounds anyway he never hurt mayweather at all mayweather was laufin at him thru the whole fight it was gon be a 8th round or 9th round knockout anyway wit all the right hands victor was catching floyd showed that layoffs dont do shit to him period and lets b honest if victor ortiz didnt headbutt floyd he wouldnt be in the position his in now....Lets get the facts straight in the 1st place Ortiz is a liar period and his team is too jus look at the facts it says it all. Floyd was in complete control of the fight the only reason Ortiz headbutted him was because he was frustrated cuz he wasnt hurting floyd at all period im jus glad it ended early cuz i seen a badly embarrassing KO in the 8th or 9th round if anybody thot victor was winning that fight they need to put that crack pipe down cuz clearly floyd was winning the fight and was gon win the fight victor didnt have any answer for floyds defense and style even when he got em on the ropes b4 the headbutt he got wit 2 LIL shots and u seen floyd smiling and laufin.....FLOYD had this fight in the bag

Well said man.
ChadSaysTakeTheTest
One question. How is Floyd overrated it he's never ducked or dodged no opponent and he's beat everyone put In front of him? Just because a fight between two fighters doesn't happen, does NOT make you overrated.
Cshel86
QUOTE (ChadSaysTakeTheTest @ Sep 18 2011, 05:04 PM) *
One question. How is Floyd overrated it he's never ducked or dodged no opponent and he's beat everyone put In front of him? Just because a fight between two fighters doesn't happen, does NOT make you overrated.

Im sure that this question will give you enough trouble on this board for the rest of the evening, so I will leave alone...
Box in Hand
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Sep 18 2011, 06:55 AM) *
I don't find it harsh at all. You can make a case for Mayweather being overrated by either himself, his fans or particular media. His name has certainly been thrown in there along some highly regarded names in boxing which based on what has been pointed out here already does make a strong argument to why he may not go down in history as high as some may say! There have been many fighters in recent times who have fought better caliber fighters and accomplished as much, yet it Mayweather that gets his name put so highly but has failed to make the fights the matter made. Yes, the same thing can be said about the other one.

Mayweather his entire career has been surrounded by big names and good competition yet fought average fights instead. Where as Mike Tyson, like Roy Jones were unfortunate they at times had weak competition in their division but that was out of their hands. You can't come up with too many cases either fighter should have fought someone but didn't! There is a difference! Same can't be said about Floyd though! Floyd Mayweather has a list of names he could have fought instead of the ones he chose! Floyd has fought in some of the best divisions the sport has to offer, yet settled for lesser fights instead of fighting the top fighters to prove his greatness like the rest were.

There should be no excuse for why a boxer in Floyd's position should have so many big or at least competitive fights slip away! He is meant to be the biggest draw in boxing..it shouldn't be that hard to make fights happen! There have been countless opportunities for Mayweather to be greater than he is and many times he could have stepped up to the plate and and we never saw it! As a result it has hurt his career and because of that holds him back from some of the names he has been compared to past and present.



I hear and agree but when you label someone overrated that means to me the person cannot fight as good as they say. That is where my problems lies because Floyd is as good a fighter as any I've seen.
STEVENSKI
Sentrals posts I completely agree with. It is not that Floyd is not a great fighter but some people on here seem to rank him higher on potential rather than actual achievements. Yes he is undefeated & even if he fought all the fighters he should have he would still likely be undefeated. The problem is that he has not & it is easy to say he would have won anyway but great fighters do great things & I am yet to see Floyd do anything great the last few years.
Box in Hand
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Sep 18 2011, 06:32 PM) *
I don't think Mayweather's skills are overrated at all, just his greatness in the sport is overrated!



Ok then I can understand your point. I just have an issue with folks who don't think he can fight because like I said his skills are head and shoulders above his peers.
duwdu
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 18 2011, 03:56 AM) *
Floyd Mayweather is quite possibly the most overrated fighter of all time.  Ever.  In the history of boxing.  Seriously I am not setting out to diminish the talents of the man but I've come to the conclusion he is by far the most overrated boxer I have ever had the pleasure to watch.  I would agree with the majority of ardent boxing followers that Floyd Mayweather was an exceptionally talented super featherweight and he produced his best work at this weight class.  He was a hungry fighter back then who reached fantastical performances against genuine threats to his undefeated record and world titles.  His victory over the late Diego Corrales was awe inspiring.  Clinical, ferocious, beautiful. I could see every reason to place Mayweather amongst the top 2 super featherweight champions of all time.  Let us remember, since it's inception in 1963 the WBC title, which Floyd held in such dominating fashion, has been held by less than 30 fighters. 
Mayweather ranks higher in this weight category than any of the others he has boxed in because he was a genuinely marvelous 130Ib fighter.  Some may say Arguello was the best at 130, others will point to Chavez and there will also be mentions for the likes of Nelson, Elorde, Escallera, Serranoand the often overlooked Brian Mitchell.  

I wouldn't entertain debating the legitimacy of those who say he was the very best 130Ib'er as I couldn't make an argument strong enough to dispute such a notion.

So where do we place Mayweather amongst the historically much deeper lightweight division, a weight class steeped in some of the sports most amazing fighters?  OK, let's make this easy.  Let's include him in a list which stretches back just 30 years to start off with.  Whitaker takes the number one spot here without question because he spent the majority of his career there, dominated all comers and unified the titles.  Mosley also ranks above him here.  His body of work far exceeds Mayweathers at lightweight, absolutely and conclusively, as does that of Chavez.  Floyd boxed just 4 times at 135, arguably losing the first match-up against Castillo and only managing to stop Phillip Ndou before he opted to move up to light welterweight.  So if Floyd doesn't make the top 3 from the past 30 years at lightweight it is pointless in going further back in history to the likes of Duran, Leonard, Gans, Williams, Armstrong and Ross.

In 2004 Floyd Mayweather, his reputation already far exceeding his true standing, moved to light welterweight, a division at the time blessed with some very talented fighters.  It was a move up which boxing fans eagerly anticipated seeing him challenged again for the first time since the Castillo fights almost 2 years earlier..  Kostas Tszyu and Miguel Cotto were the names he should have fought.  Instead Floyd opted to meet DeMarcus Corley, Henry Bruseles and Arturo Gatti.  A stunningly abysmal resume at 140 and in no way could he ever rank all time above the likes of Tszyu, Pryor, Locche, Ross and McFarland, amongst the many others who have graced a wonderfully talent laden division.

Failing to accomplish anything of major significance at 140 Floyd chose to move up and compete in the welterweight division.  I actually believe it is futile to even begin to imagine how anybody with even a passing historical knowledge of boxing could place him anywhere near the top 10 of fighters who have graced 147. 

Are those who believe the hype merely hypnotized by the myth Floyd has created for himself?  We are talking just 12 fights since the 2nd Castillo bout in 2002, and the glaring omissions on his resume leave him open for questions he has no answer to.  There is no Tszyu, there is no Cotto, there is no Margarito, there is no Williams and there is no Pacquiao.  Hatton was made to move up to a division he had already proven to be ineffective at.  He didn't even bother making the stipulated weight for the Marquez bout despite already being far more accustomed and natural at the heavier poundage. 


Baldimor and Gatti, tonight we had Ortiz.  Floyd Mayweather is absolutely brilliant when it comes to fooling the foolish but when you really analyze his career and his achievements, look further than the flashy performances against cherry picked opposition, his resume is quite pathetic post 130 and I can only feel sympathy and mild embarrassment for those who have bought into the facade which is quite obviously the most overrated fighter of all time.

MODS; why did u delete this thread?

You make some good arguments that one could agree with for your pet project. However, you have laced or padded your arguments with deliberate falsehood, and to me, that sinks your credibility and intentions. Falsehood because, for instance, every worthy historian knows that Mayweather at some point in fact pursued and did not deliberately dodge/avoid fighters like Cotto or Tsyzu, or even Margarito or Mosley. It was either those were not ready for him according to their own promoters, or impediments - including titles or financial issues - were put in his way. This was probably because FMJ chose to be independent relatively early. Yet you're going out of your way to perpetrate those falsehoods, clearly in attempts at making the case for Mayweather rather weak and boost your pre-ordained conclusion. You're even writing that Mayweather cannot possibly be ranked above Tszyu! Anyways, once one just reads the list of those you consider the greats of their era (Cotto, Tsyzu, Margarito, Mosley,) one can easily place the quality of your arguments.

For God's sake, there is nothing wrong with this Mayweather guy or his fans calling him a GOAT...they are living in Mayweather's era, and can identify with him. It is called the attributes of modern marketing/promotion/HDTV images. I can bet that SRR dared not call himself great or flashy (and boy, was he flashy!) during his time without him picking up some haters or without some older guys at the time attempting to shut him up. Those older guys would make reference to an even older generation of greatness, and how those were of much better quality, probably based on radio broadcasts they listened to. And they, too, would feel justified. It is what it is. Every generation's knowledge is limited in some way. Fake, biased and incompetent historians such as yourself should just leave history to those who would write it at the appropriate time for the appropriate boxer; in the case of the FMJ's of this world, when their era is long gone, after which true historians would be able to properly place them. At that time, you will no longer find folks on bulletin boards calling FMJ a GOAT. It would be someone(s) else. I think proper historians are more likely to get it right at that time.

I'll suggest that, for now, just deal with the current hype, enjoy the show and help reduce your own stress level - seeing how you're miffed by all this attention on a current boxer - so you can prolong your own life!

P34c3
K18
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Sep 18 2011, 11:41 AM) *
Some of you are acting incredibly shallow.  Really, you are.  I am not a Floyd Mayweather hater by any means.  I have immense respect for his obvious talents and stated in my post how I rated him as one of the greatest super featherweights of all time.  My claim that he is overrated is legitimate, and more importantly, valid, for the reasons I made in the opening post.  On every message board there are vast swathes of posters who rank Mayweather almost as highly as he ranks himself.  They shamelessly pick him in all manner of fantasy clashes against the elite of the sport and they do this because they have blindly bought into the myth he has created.

I have yet to see one poster disagree with my assertion that he is nowhere near to being the best fighter in any of the subsequent divisions he competed in after his days as a super featherweight.  If he was simply labelled a great fighter who failed to clean out the best opposition of his era I'd be happy to accept his standing in the sport.  However, this isn't the case is it?  There have been and will continue to be many questions as to why he didn't pit his skills against the next best fighters of today.  Ignoring Manny Pac because that is a fight which can still happen.  And should happen and both are guilty, equally guilty, of failing to force that fight through.

There are those who say he is the greatest fighter of all time and this thread was designed to pick at their opinions, to dissect their views with my counter argument that he is only a great super featherweight and nothing more.  There is no shame in that at all.  He will always look good against the choice of opponents he has picked in the last 8 or 9 years.  He's opted to face the C and B level guys and somehow managed to elude those who presented a bigger test.  He's sneaked in through the back door of greatness by manipulating his fan-base, tricking them into believing he is a ring legend.  The opportunity to put this argument to bed, to render it non-existent was there for the taking.  But it eluded him when he took the easier options over those last 8 or 9 years.  History will remember him as a great fighter but it will also struggle to convince future generations that his resume truly warranted claims to P4P greatness.


I don't see anything wrong with what you are saying, but I think you need to add in other factors that played into his opponents....some facts are that (1) Bob Arum hasn't given him the opportunity(flat out refuses) to fight Top Rank Fighters (2) Fighters he called out back when he was hungry wanted no part of him Mosley.....(3) like he always says....the media ranks fighters on the P4P list, then when he beats them they don't give him credit(Mosley was suppose to be his toughest challenge, he embarrassed him, then it became he was to old).....case and point he embarrassed Marquez after almost a two year layoff, at the time he was rated Top 2 pound for pound, he called out Mayweather got beat, then it became he was too small.....now Pacquiao is fighting him and he is clearly on his downside, but the media is acting like he's still great.

When u have a guy that plays the villain(to sell tickets) and that the media doesn't like much......you tend to downplay his competition. Is Floyd an all time great...... sure, is he up there with the GOATs, no not imo, but let's be real, boxing wasn't as commercialized as it is now, guys where fighting for pride and one belt back in the day. Floyd is the best fighter of his generation(ala Kobe in basketball) and his skill level is probably one of the best I have ever seen in the ring.
EAlbian
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Sep 18 2011, 08:55 AM) *
I don't find it harsh at all. You can make a case for Mayweather being overrated by either himself, his fans or particular media. His name has certainly been thrown in there along some highly regarded names in boxing which based on what has been pointed out here already does make a strong argument to why he may not go down in history as high as some may say! There have been many fighters in recent times who have fought better caliber fighters and accomplished as much, yet it Mayweather that gets his name put so highly but has failed to make the fights the matter made. Yes, the same thing can be said about the other one.

Mayweather his entire career has been surrounded by big names and good competition yet fought average fights instead. Where as Mike Tyson, like Roy Jones were unfortunate they at times had weak competition in their division but that was out of their hands. You can't come up with too many cases either fighter should have fought someone but didn't! There is a difference! Same can't be said about Floyd though! Floyd Mayweather has a list of names he could have fought instead of the ones he chose! Floyd has fought in some of the best divisions the sport has to offer, yet settled for lesser fights instead of fighting the top fighters to prove his greatness like the rest were.

There should be no excuse for why a boxer in Floyd's position should have so many big or at least competitive fights slip away! He is meant to be the biggest draw in boxing..it shouldn't be that hard to make fights happen! There have been countless opportunities for Mayweather to be greater than he is and many times he could have stepped up to the plate and and we never saw it! As a result it has hurt his career and because of that holds him back from some of the names he has been compared to past and present.


Viper, you and Sentral put a lot of thought into these arguments and I can't say that I don't agree with most of it. However, who would you have liked to see him fight instead of the fighters he fought? This has been gone over so many times on this board. It would be great if every fighter from history would have fought all of the toughest fights at the perfect time but it just doesn't seem to play out that way usually. Promoters get in the way most of the time, fighters think they are worth more than they are blah blah. The Cotto fight would have been great instead of him fighting Margarito but Floyd retired and Margarito was a formidable enough challenge. Lets not forget Margarito and Cotto are both under TR. When Floyd was @140 people were calling for the Hatton fight, Floyd wanted to chase DLH. The fight was made 2 years later when Hatton had been exposed to the US, it wasn't at Hattons best weight but Floyd was the A side. The DLH fight wasn't made @ Floyds best weight either. Would Hatton had fared that much better if the fight was @140? I don't think so. The Margarito fight would have been a nice fight in 2006 but Mayweather was fighting the lineal champion for more money without the help of Arum who just dicked him over on the Judah fight. Margarito had then lost his following fight to Paul Williams. There are reasons these fights never happened. You could go on and on but the reality is, yes Mayweathers career has many shortcoming which a good portion are his own fault. The argument could always be made tho that TR had most of the good fighters around 147 the last 6 years and Mayweather didn't want to do business with them and I'm not sure TR really wanted to do business with Mayweather.
MrChampagne123
Floyd has lost little to no rnds after the 4th rnd. He has never been tested really JLC comes closest and floyd was the clear victor on my CARD. He skill is unmatched today by any fighter. his defense is unmatched in history other then Sweet Pea. His connect percentage is the best in history. Yeah he is overrated
MrChampagne123
Not saying he is the G.O.A.T because SRR is the G.O.A.T but he is a ATG in skill not his fault. Boxing no adays is not about fighting the Best of the best. its about making as much money as possible and floyd is doing that. Cotto and Mosely both Balked at Money their mouth said I wanted the fight but there brain and promoters wanted none of that. And floyd fought Oscar instead of margarito. Floyd only logical fight is Manny. But stylistically Manny is all wronge for Floyd and Manny would get taxed. Martinez is 160 right now yes he has fought at 154 but I dont think he should drop that low since his body has adapted to 160. People calling for Alverez he needs more seasoning or it would be another Ortiz kind of beatdown. Ahmir Kahn and Berto are it right now.
gravytrain
QUOTE (MrChampagne123 @ Sep 19 2011, 04:50 PM) *
Floyd has lost little to no rnds after the 4th rnd. He has never been tested really JLC comes closest and floyd was the clear victor on my CARD. He skill is unmatched today by any fighter. his defense is unmatched in history other then Sweet Pea. His connect percentage is the best in history. Yeah he is overrated


what about Pep and Benny Leonard? and his connect % is the best in compubox history.
Fitz
I think the thing people don't understand is that they continue to bring up: "who could he have fought?", "this fight made sense", "so and so wasn't ready", and a lot of times, they may be valid reasons as to why fights didn't happen.
But when it comes to rating fighters amongst all time greats, we don't give a shit on the reasons why certain fights did or didn't happen, we just care whether fights happened or not. We rate fighters based on fights that happened not on potential.
If they didn't happen, and for good reason, well that's not our problem when trying to rate him, we rate on facts and not potential and there are far too many fights that didn't happen which hurts him. It's irrelevant as to why they didn't happen when rating him amongst others, that's not our problem and a price someone pays when they are deciding on money or legacy. It's why you find that you can find more holes in Mayweather's resume on fighters he didn't fight more than other all time greats.
sduck
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 19 2011, 05:01 PM) *
what about Pep and Benny Leonard? and his connect % is the best in compubox history.

They didn't even have compubox back then, so how can you say that???
Fitz
lol.

Right over his head.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 19 2011, 06:18 PM) *
lol.

Right over his head.


it's sad, man.
EAlbian
QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 19 2011, 05:58 PM) *
I think the thing people don't understand is that they continue to bring up: "who could he have fought?", "this fight made sense", "so and so wasn't ready", and a lot of times, they may be valid reasons as to why fights didn't happen.
But when it comes to rating fighters amongst all time greats, we don't give a shit on the reasons why certain fights did or didn't happen, we just care whether fights happened or not. We rate fighters based on fights that happened not on potential.
If they didn't happen, and for good reason, well that's not our problem when trying to rate him, we rate on facts and not potential and there are far too many fights that didn't happen which hurts him. It's irrelevant as to why they didn't happen when rating him amongst others, that's not our problem and a price someone pays when they are deciding on money or legacy. It's why you find that you can find more holes in Mayweather's resume on fighters he didn't fight more than other all time greats.


I agree 100% but when its all said and done from the outside Mayweather's legacy will stand and he still has time to stamp it. Leonard never fought Pryor and waited out the Hagler fight but people tend to forget those things. Shit he fought 4 times in 6 years right after his most impressive win(I know he had an eye injury). There were tough fights for him after Hagler and instead he fought Lalonde. you can't really rate him till he's done and after Saturdays performance he's not looking done.

If you were to finish Floyds career how would you do it?(If you were him) What would satisfy you?
Fitz
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 20 2011, 09:38 AM) *
I agree 100% but when its all said and done from the outside Mayweather's legacy will stand and he still has time to stamp it. Leonard never fought Pryor and waited out the Hagler fight but people tend to forget those things. Shit he fought 4 times in 6 years right after his most impressive win(I know he had an eye injury). There were tough fights for him after Hagler and instead he fought Lalonde. you can't really rate him till he's done and after Saturdays performance he's not looking done.

If you were to finish Floyds career how would you do it?(If you were him) What would satisfy you?


That's the thing, for every one name you can come up with for Leonard (Pryor), you can come up with about 4-5 names for Mayweather. That's the difference, and you can find flaws in any fighter, all I'm saying is that there are more holes in Mayweather resume than other all time greats.


If I was Floyd, I would try get the Pacquiao fight out of the way ASAP, after that just fight the best fighters the division has to offer, defend your title against mandatories, maybe look for a fight with Khan, or move up to fight Martinez. It's hard to speculate on what are good fights in the future, but for short term, just get the Pacquiao fight out of the way, then see which guys have a reputation and look good at that time.
duwdu
QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 19 2011, 04:58 PM) *
I think the thing people don't understand is that they continue to bring up: "who could he have fought?", "this fight made sense", "so and so wasn't ready", and a lot of times, they may be valid reasons as to why fights didn't happen.
But when it comes to rating fighters amongst all time greats, we don't give a shit on the reasons why certain fights did or didn't happen, we just care whether fights happened or not. We rate fighters based on fights that happened not on potential.
If they didn't happen, and for good reason, well that's not our problem when trying to rate him, we rate on facts and not potential and there are far too many fights that didn't happen which hurts him. It's irrelevant as to why they didn't happen when rating him amongst others, that's not our problem and a price someone pays when they are deciding on money or legacy. It's why you find that you can find more holes in Mayweather's resume on fighters he didn't fight more than other all time greats.

I don't think it's right or fair to say one should not care about the reasons some of the fights did not take place. Besides, the current crop of people who claim to be rating ATG's in these threads are actually living in the present, know these reasons, and should not ignore them. If historians in the future discount the reasons, that would be fine. Their own criteria would be different. For one, historians would probably not even have the benefit of these emotions that are so apparent with most of the present keyboard raters.

I expect that there eventually would have to be other, more modern criteria with which to determine ATG's, GOATS, and legacies...it would no longer be sufficient to just use things such as number of fights, KO percentages and longevity and the like as some are wont to use. Something along the line of the P4P rankings, together with things such as estimated Compubox numbers, money of the day, and so on would have to come in. This should have be so since society and the sweet science itself are continuously evolving, otherwise some people will forever live in/favor the past.

P34c3
Fitz
QUOTE (duwdu @ Sep 20 2011, 10:50 AM) *
I don't think it's right or fair to say one should not care about the reasons some of the fights did not take place. Besides, the current crop of people who claim to be rating ATG's in these threads are actually living in the present, know these reasons, and should not ignore them. If historians in the future discount the reasons, that would be fine. Their own criteria would be different. For one, historians would probably not even have the benefit of these emotions that are so apparent with most of the present keyboard raters.

I expect that there eventually would have to be other, more modern criteria with which to determine ATG's, GOATS, and legacies...it would no longer be sufficient to just use things such as number of fights, KO percentages and longevity and the like as some are wont to use. Something along the line of the P4P rankings, together with things such as estimated Compubox numbers, money of the day, and so on would have to come in. This should have be so since society and the sweet science itself are continuously evolving, otherwise some people will forever live in/favor the past.

P34c3


No it doesn't matter when you're trying to rate a fighter on how great they are. People rate fighters on the work they have done, who they have fought etc. There may be very good reasons why a fighter didn't fight certain guys, but if the fighters they didn't fight are relevant, then it doesn't matter why, as we should only focus on what actually happened, not what didn't happen.
Look, these reasons may matter if your arguing whether he ducked certain fighter. You may put these arguments forward and say "look, he didn't duck so and so because of this reason" and then the arguments may be valid. But when judging someones career, it doesn't matter 'why', the only thing that matters if it 'did' or 'didn't' take place.

By the way, I find it strange that you think that 'money' should be a criteria when rating a fighters greatness now. But each to their own.
gravytrain
QUOTE (duwdu @ Sep 19 2011, 08:50 PM) *
I don't think it's right or fair to say one should not care about the reasons some of the fights did not take place. Besides, the current crop of people who claim to be rating ATG's in these threads are actually living in the present, know these reasons, and should not ignore them. If historians in the future discount the reasons, that would be fine. Their own criteria would be different. For one, historians would probably not even have the benefit of these emotions that are so apparent with most of the present keyboard raters.

I expect that there eventually would have to be other, more modern criteria with which to determine ATG's, GOATS, and legacies...it would no longer be sufficient to just use things such as number of fights, KO percentages and longevity and the like as some are wont to use. Something along the line of the P4P rankings, together with things such as estimated Compubox numbers, money of the day, and so on would have to come in. This should have be so since society and the sweet science itself are continuously evolving, otherwise some people will forever live in/favor the past.

P34c3


you're out of your fucking mind. that's like changing criteria for ranking great football players to how many Tweets per day, best celebrations and estimated stats.
duwdu
QUOTE (EAlbian @ Sep 19 2011, 06:38 PM) *
I agree 100% but when its all said and done from the outside Mayweather's legacy will stand and he still has time to stamp it. Leonard never fought Pryor and waited out the Hagler fight but people tend to forget those things. Shit he fought 4 times in 6 years right after his most impressive win(I know he had an eye injury). There were tough fights for him after Hagler and instead he fought Lalonde. you can't really rate him till he's done and after Saturdays performance he's not looking done.

If you were to finish Floyds career how would you do it?(If you were him) What would satisfy you?

I agree.

Let me chip in an answer to the question, using the following statement made sometime ago (I think on 2011-08-12) by BoxingWizard, that I easily identify with, and I quote:

"Well, if Mayweather does do as he say[s] and fight[s] 10 more times, this is the list of opponents I would love for him to fight after Ortiz...

1. Packman
2. Amir Khan
3. Martinez
4. Guerrero
5. Maidana
6. Lara
7. Alvarez
8. Pirog (if he can come down to 154)
8b. Matthysse
9. Cotto
10. Brandon Rios (for his last fight.)

If May fight[s] all these people in whatever order in his last 10 fights after Ortiz, EVERY and I mean EVERY critic must shut the fvck up but even if that did [does] happen, the will still have an excuse.

If he beats all these people for his last 10 fights then he goes down as top 5 P4P all time...and at least top 30 or 20 on the All Time Great List... Right now, believe it or not... on my ATG list he's #42 and if he beats Ortiz, Pacman and Khan in spectacular fashion like he did against Mosley, then he moves to #31."


Unquote.

P34c3
duwdu
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Sep 19 2011, 08:08 PM) *
you're out of your fucking mind. that's like changing criteria for ranking great football players to how many Tweets per day, best celebrations and estimated stats.

Did you once say that the world would have need for may be five computers at the max? Was that you, the then narrow-minded Chairman of IBM? Pfffttt.

P34c3
duwdu
QUOTE (Fitz @ Sep 19 2011, 08:03 PM) *
No it doesn't matter when you're trying to rate a fighter on how great they are. People rate fighters on the work they have done, who they have fought etc. There may be very good reasons why a fighter didn't fight certain guys, but if the fighters they didn't fight are relevant, then it doesn't matter why, as we should only focus on what actually happened, not what didn't happen.
Look, these reasons may matter if your arguing whether he ducked certain fighter. You may put these arguments forward and say "look, he didn't duck so and so because of this reason" and then the arguments may be valid. But when judging someones career, it doesn't matter 'why', the only thing that matters if it 'did' or 'didn't' take place.

By the way, I find it strange that you think that 'money' should be a criteria when rating a fighters greatness now. But each to their own.

It's a business. At times, money drives it, at other times, it drives money. Believe it or not, the final, real world perception of it is driven into public consciousness - or diminished from it - by those who control both resources. But may be that's just me.

P34c3
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
No FLOMO has ever been able to explain to me why Floyd takes these semi-retirement periods out of the ring. Aren't prize fighters supposed to fight?
Fitz
QUOTE (duwdu @ Sep 20 2011, 11:49 AM) *
It's a business. At times, money drives it, at other times, it drives money. Believe it or not, the final, real world perception of it is driven into public consciousness - or diminished from it - by those who control both resources. But may be that's just me.

P34c3


Nope, I still won't accept that I am going to rate greatness on how much money they make, lol. Yes it's a business, but we rate fighters as a sportsman, pretty simple.
Allmenjoi8
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Sep 19 2011, 09:42 PM) *
No FLOMO has ever been able to explain to me why Floyd takes these semi-retirement periods out of the ring. Aren't prize fighters supposed to fight?


Is it a sin to take breaks? Especially if you come back and face the best competition. Would you rather a fighter to stay active and fight bums or they take sometime off and fight good fighters? I rather them take time off. There is such a thing called over exposure just ask Beyonce about that. The public needs a break, I am a little tired of hearing about Floyd. I could use a month without any Floyd talk. I am a Floyd fan and I love the guy but too much is too much. His inactivity has made him last longer versus fighting for an ungratful public. When he comes back and fights again I am sure it will be another good fighter. I other mega star boxers would follow his lead. Give the younger guys some shine...
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