The Heavyweight Division use to be the back bone of boxing, its main seller, now its like UCLA football, it exist but no one really pays attention to it (I am a die hard UCLA fan, I met Jim Harrick as a child). How did the Heavyweight division become UCLA football and most important how does the Heavyweight division get back to its prominence? There are no Tyson, Riddick, Lennox, Botha,Holyfield and a slew of others. They all had personalities and they were very fun to watch (the Botha was a joke by the way). I know w alot of heavyweights fight overseas too. I would love for this division to come back, I honestly think it would help boxing in America.

It's Lennox. And its Holyfield. Sorry for being an ass, but you should know how to spell these names IMO. Glad you said Botha was a joke.

Anyway I guess this is better than a PBF thread.

I really do not know why there is such a lack of American talent these days. It is frustrating watching all these crappy fighters in this pathetic division. I think it would help boxing some if we had another dominant exciting popular fighter. I highly doubt the casual fan can name any American heavies today.

I am watching tv, typos were a mistake thanks for pointing that out, any other misspelled words?

Don't worry folks give it a couple more fights Manny should be about ready to come and save the HW division.

No, I did not see you mention Pete Samprassssssssssssssss in this thread.

Hahahaha!!!

Other than that, I wouldn't mind seeing Tarver vs one of the Klitz, since Haye hung 'em up until the division gets easier. At this point, the HW division is all about who who can eventually beat the Klitz bros.

Or who will take over when they retire.

I agree, I don't think anyone is as mentally strong or physically advantaged like the brothers. They will probably retire champions, I like Chris arreola but he's too small for them as is adamek. I think its because big American athletes find it easier to make it in other sports like foot ball or basketball(the highest paying sport on average). Plus there's way more risk in boxing. And its harder to make it too

The Klitschkos are both dominating a shitty division. I think that an exciting heavyweight may still come along and make some noise. But it may not be for awhile. The problem is that the powers that be won't market him on Free TV like they did during the days of Ali, Holmes, and Tyson. Boxing needs free TV exposure and a return to its roots to develop it's superstars and create excitement.

People love knockouts. It would be nice for the MMA crowd of today to see some action boxing fights on free TV. American fight fans need to identify with an American heavyweight contender and champion who produces, DOMINANCE, EXCITEMENT, POWER, and ATTITUDE. Just being dominant and physically skilled like the Klitschko brothers may work in Europe, but we Americans are often spoiled. We want power, KO's and exposure. If you really want to remove the stench of today's heavyweight division, get an exciting American heavyweight on free TV in prime time, and boxing can begin to bring back the tools to make it popular once again.

Jack

The reality is this: talented African American kids who may have been boxers in another era are instead turning increasingly to football and basketball, even more than ever before. Why ? Because even as a middle of the road offensive lineman, backup power forward (the same sized kids would have been boxers), you stand a greater chance of making more money than in boxing (how many people actually become PPV stars, as opposed to making it on some level in the aforementioned sports ?). Also, let's not forget that your chances of developing neurological disorders is considerably less in those sports, although being a lineman in football can be pretty bad. Still not as debilitating as boxing.

I enjoy watching the Klitchkos, because they're pretty skilled, although those guys are pretty safety first fighters. Although I must say, had those guys ever run into a prime Tyson, Holyfield or Lewis, they would have gotten assraped. Perhaps even literally, in Tyson's case.

Free and America do not go well together. Capitalist Society means we will charge you if we can make a profit off of it. Which is sad...

MaxPayne: Only African Americans can be great heavyweights? I think because Spanish speakers are now the majority, that maybe the next heavyweight champion for this country Boxing is not an instant gratification sport. Football, Basketball, Baseball, even Soccer, are instant gratification sports. Tennis is no longer popular in this country because it takes forever in a year to really get your game going. Boxing takes forever too, our kids want the glory now, not 12 years down the road. I do not think race plays a issue with the heavyweight, I think the dedication is the the problem, just ask David Haye

agreed agreed.
if you ask me why the heavyweiht division "sucks"...its because the only people who do ask that are americans and thats because they dont have a champion present.
if you ask me why the 60s, 70s and 80s were the "golden era" of heavyweight boxing...its because boxers of e. european countries were not present (damn commies americans would say) and so america had the heavyweight sandbox to themselves

i think the klits are going to revive the hw division just by their presence as champs - eventually somebody is going to really make a fight with one of those two and its gonna be awesome. so far, seems like people underestimate their physical advantages and so their gameplan usually fails. the klits are gonna keep boxing and hw contenders should eventually get savvy to some of chinks in the brothers armor.

Of course African Americans aren't the ONLY great heavyweights. However, when you think of boxing history, at the heavyweight level, the most universally recognized fighters tend to be black...off the top of my head: Jack Johnson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Joe Louis, Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield. Our of white fighters, Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey are in that conversation as well, but there are certain realities as to which race produced the most prolific and also exciting heavyweights.

I think it's entirely possible that a Hispanic American heavyweight could also climb the ranks and I think it would be the easiest way to return the division to glory, because of the fan base. Latin American boxing fans are easily the most die-hard fans in the sport.

you could also look at it from an economic perspective and see what CLASS produced the best and exciting boxers. class is the primary factor in my opinion - so, it makes sense that america's greatest boxers usually are black because of the u.s.'s notorious economic institutions that keep black americans in the lower class. this is seen in all other u.s. athletics too.

white boxers are few and far between, and even fewer are considered great...because they are not at ends with the u.s. economy to the same extent as blacks and so less likely to depend on boxing as an income generator

another factor that has enhanced the careers of black heavyweights is their legacies often transcend mere boxing matches and come to represent the racial tensions that are prevalent in the u.s. i.e. jack johnson against the white hopes, joe louis as a quiet champion who fights for america against fascism (shmelling), ali as the new politically charged, intelligent, black man all whites would have feared during the 60s...one who rebels (vietnam).

..there are plenty of examples of this. you could even make a case for floyd mayweather jr...he definitely is representative of the new black stereotype being pushed by all the record labels that involves street history, emphasis on accumulative wealth, and emphasis on fraternity (entourage). white america sees this new figure (one highly pushed and consumed by white people) as degrading "american values" and what other moral garbage they can pull out their ass...thats why people tune in to see "money" get knocked out.

for better or worse, these things do make black champions much more compelling to watch in the ring and outside of it.

Great point and I was playing devil's advocate with my original response to you. Someone was bound to bring up that point so I knocked it out the way. I think boxing for blacks in my humble opinion is that it is no longer considered the sport to play. Plus working in the "hood" there aren't too many boxing gyms around. I think access has a lot to do with it and I also think funding does too. It cost nothing to get a ball and practice a jump shot, or football when you can go and play with your friends. Boxing like tennis takes coaching and time. I think with the Mexican heavyweight would be widely popular since again America is now majority Spanish speaking. I would love to see a Chinese heavyweight. That would be so awesome. It would!



Class truly plays a part in every role in our society. Do wealthy kids make great boxers? It is usually kids from the streets or slums that become great boxers. Look at the top two boxers in the sport. Very humble begginnings. Ortiz made the nation cry because of his story. You do have the Ward's and Mosely's who have a pretty good upbringing but mostly you have kids with their backs against the wall (unless you are Chavez Jr).

Great post!

right right. has to do with available venues to make money...why would a rich boy try and make oodles of cash gettin beat on if he can easily make as much or more crunchin numbers in an office.
also has to do with cultural ornaments of the working class. working class has always placed great value on PHYSICAL courage and honor. boxing makes way more sense to the subscribers of working class culture then it does to middle and upper classes that put more emphasis on monetary success, academia, and good manners. therefore - more boxers from lower/working classes.

sidenote: i'd love to see a mexican or chinese champion - great way to smash stereotypes about chinese and mexican physicality

Hmmm...thats the kicker right there. Im guessing whenever they lower the Klitz bros. caskets and do a 10-count memorial. So, the last man standing in the division after this takes place will take over. Well hell, it may just end up being a free-for-all at that point.


Lets just hope somebody comes to their senses and makes something happen against these giants, or else they will retire on top...not knockin' them for that, but it will be pretty embarrassing if nobody can beat these guys in the near future.

haha i know, man. if only haye wouldn't have broken his toe lol
its possible vitali will retire on top - i think its almost likely. if wlad sticks around, and i think he will, theres a definite chance we might see him get his block knocked off...hopefully!
i like both the brothers but i can admit that without adversity or competitive fights, the brothers do bring a bit of stagnancy to the division. I don't agree with those who think the current HW division is garbage...i think wlad and vitali make it appear that way. we just need an exceptional hw fighter to come and really bring the heat. even if they lose, if they can get a good entertaining fight out of either brother, the HW division benefits from it.

it seems like that the majority arent just hating on the klits, they just hate the lack of competitive fights - i can totally relate with that and so totally want somebody to come along and shake the bros. its only gonna get easier cause both of their confidence is goin up every time they win a fight. eventually their heads might get to bulbous for their own good

I agree. There just needs to be one or two good fighters that will give them shit (within the next or two), and that will somewhat revive the division. All of these dominating victories by the two are getting old and boring, but hey, if nobody can beat them, then thats the bottom line at the end of the day. The only fighter I see that can give either of the two a loss, IS the Kiltz bros...and we all know that fight wont ever happen...so the competitors need to step in there soon before they get bored and hang 'em up.

boxing doesn't have the same clout and big guys are always going to get picked up by other sports. there's just no real marketing in boxing and big fights aren't accessible to a lot of people, the NFL and NBA are on free tv and their athletes are household names. the chances of a kid getting in the boxing gym at a young age and growing up to be similar in size to one of the Klitschkos is pretty slim. until the Klits retire i see the HW division being pretty dead.

In my opinion, it's very simple. The best and meanest athletes (as it pertains to the U.S.) aren't boxing any longer. As someone eluded to earlier, boxing isn't necessarily the sport to play any longer. There are other avenues, in which an aspiring athlete can take, to become rich w/o taking that level of risk. As someone once said, "this is the hurt business" and there's nothing attractive about coming up through the ranks, to a guy who doesn't really LOVE to fight. This speaks to an earlier mention of "immediate gratification" that so many potential athletes seem to have. Everything is quick and if we all know anything about boxing, it's that, in order to be really good, it takes time.

Forget about it.

In America it ain't happening.

It shouldn't mean the death of the heavyweights but it probably will because you all wanna be self gratified so fuckin' much you can't handle it when things ain't goin' sweet for you.

Face it, you ain't got shit comin' up, you ain't gonna have shit comin' up for a long long time....there ain't no active amateur whose gonna make a difference to you lot as a heavyweight force.

Either be patient, which you can't be I suspect, or stop fuckin moaning. Gonna take bankruptcy to hit you so fuckin hard you are all starving in the streets before an American heavyweight gets the hunger again!

Well since people are already starving and bankrupt then our heavyweight is right around the corner!

I'm being serious.

You have absolutely FUCK ALL coming up in the heavyweight division. There is no hidden star, no undercover brother about to bust onto the scene. It just ain't there.

Seeing as you started this thread I thought you needed to know this as a fact.

A FACT.

There is no hope if you are pinning your hopes on an American heavyweight to save you from the current state of the division and there won't be for at least a decade....if ever.

If you love boxing you'll have to be content with some average white European swapping titles with his average white European mates for a very long time yet.

Damn, calm down Maxy Its cool to support your country or what not, but to get all riled up is another thing, unnecessary in my opinion. I agree, there isn't much talent here in America, in regards to HWs.

Nah you ain't even close to what I'm sayin' son. It ain't got shit to do with my country....we ain't producing jack shit either...nobody that's gonna make big waves in the heavyweight division anyway.


If you're takin' my post as a diss to America you are foolin' yourself. Ain't no diss to America at all. It's just a truth.

Sadly I must be right too cos I ain't seein' a bunch of names comin' flyin back at me to prove me wrong.

And won't.

lol. i agree with you though, i don't see America producing the kind of HW the division needs. our best hope is Deontay Wilder but there's no telling what he can do and he really hasn't got much attention either. Helenius is the only guy i could see beating Wlad and he needs some work before he's ready for a challenge like that. for America to produce good HWs again boxing needs to be a mainstream sport, kids just aren't falling in love with boxing anymore. i think the biggest problem is that the luster is gone period, nobody really jumps out in the division. that could be said for most divisions in boxing though

I don't care where the boxer comes from I just want the division to be where it was. China makes everything, so they should create a damn heavyweight boxer and let him kick some ass. There is Chris Arreola, and he is from my home state...



Let the man rant! That is called passion which you lack, (i'm joking)

You're bang on the button gravy. It ain't as if I'm sitting here all smug thinking, "yeah man, America ain't got no heavyweights coming up, they be finished!" cos that simply ain't what I'm about.

Truth be told I'm fuckin' gutted with the way things are and the way things are gonna be for the next.....damn....I couldn't even put my finger on it..it's gonna be a long time. Grew up with Holmes as champ but went through the archives of every major publication and video to learn about the sport. ALL the great heavyweights came from America. Absolute fact. It was normal and it continued until....well shit me....when it died it died really quickly. Suddenly there wasn't anybody coming up no more...not even any amateurs to pin your hopes on.

It's sad in my eyes. Fuckin loathe the uncharismatic Europeans with their robotic styles. Lookin' for some loose natural talent, a fella that talks the talk and brings a buzz with his in ring performances. Americans have always delivered that in the past.

Now it ain't happening and there is no silver lining. NOTHING.

Cshel, you can assume I'm not being calm and brush my posts aside but the fact remains I'm speaking the truth and if you dispute it then come back at me with something positive. A name?

You won't cos you can't.

Deontay Wilder is probably our best prospect and he didn't even have a boxing background, he's playing basketball in college. and that's exactly why America isn't going to deliver HWs, the talent is in the mainstream sports. but to be honest the people running boxing don't invest anything in the sport so it's no surprise the American fighters aren't what they used to be.

I dont know where all of the hostility is coming from today, hopefully thats not whats going on this thread. You can settle down with all of that, my man. Nobody said that you were trying to start anything, but the way you are addressing me is another situation thats bound to boil over...for no reason at all. I just told you to calm down a bit, and I did agree with your post as far as it not being much talent in America in regards to HWs.


Thats exactly what Im doing, my man, brushing it aside...because this little spat can be chalked up as a difference in opinions or a simple misunderstanding...I choose "B" in this situation. Again, chill out man

I will say this now and you can take it however you would like to take it.

Do Not Patronize me.

I am talking boxing.

If you don't like it. Can't handle it. Are out of your depth.

Walk away.

Otherwise I'll happily ignore you in future or you can ban me for insubordination.

Which would be weak.

lol the truth hurts

Why does everybody let a load of shit fly out of their mouth, then bring up suspension/banishment and cry "unfair" about it? The best thing to do is watch what you say, or at least be mature enough stand behind it and deal with the consequences, not standing behind that is weak. Please stop being so Ortiz-like, if you meant what you said, then thats that...but dont try and clean it up man. Neither of the two crossed my mind (suspension/banishment), so whats the deal with that?

Im still trying to figure out where all of these "feelings" are coming from today...for the life of me, I still dont understand. Nobody's patronizing you Maxy, c'mon man. If you took it as such, then my apologies bro. Like I said, if there's a difference in opinion or a misunderstanding, I can live with that, its cool. The last thing that I cant and wont handle and most definitely wont walk away from, is disrespect (mod or not), which I felt a little bit of, but hey, you felt patronized, so I guess we're even there...no hard feelings over here.

I tend to see this more from Maxy's perspective because he seems to be arguing a passionate point without being disrespectful imo.

I think there is a lot of underlying anger from the old posters because things have definitely changed in a major way on this board of late. I didn't even know cshel86 was a mid until tonight on this thread. How did that suddenly happen?

No disrespect meant just the way I see things. But positive assertive opinions are what makes these boards enjoyable in the first place right?

I see it from his perspective as well, always have...he's a great poster and Im sure most wont argue with that. I didn't suddenly become a mod by the way, lol...it was a process and I fit the description. You haven't been around much, so that made have contributed to the "sudden-ness", lol. Underlying anger is definitely the case, maybe not as much in this situation, but definitely the case overall.

Did anyone take the time to warn this cat that I would lay the BAN HAMMER across his head?

First Notice of Violation


Ye' shall never utter those words again. Failure to comply will result in your account being suspended. Additionally, you will be prohibited from inclusion in future mailings, tweets, and correspondence on behalf of the Frans Botha Buffalo Nation (FBBN). Upon reflection, I am sure that we both will dismiss this as a casual oversight on your part. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Honestly its all over my head but although I don't post often I am always reading the boards and opted to make this my forum of preference due to the excellent quality here. Maybe the old timers feel someone is standing on their toes. Thats how it looks to me reading between the lines and looking at dialogue such as patronize being bandied about? Just a thought.

Damn! Did someone piss TheWhiteBuffalo off? Uh ohhh...I will stay outta this one, lol

I am good when it comes to the Afrikkana. I have no issues. I thought it was interesting that he actually wore a buffalo in the ring. Especially when buffalo are on the endangered species list. I do have a question: What are your top 3 fight that Botha had?
This will be my last post for the weekend. I will see you cats on Monday...

Maxy...for the most part I do agree with every single thing you have stated. The writing was on the wall YEARS ago...hell if a person were to look back in the archives, they would find me saying that the era of the Klits was going to look just like it has because there was NOTHING on the horizon. This is going into a decade and sadly there does look to be nothin out there. However, I do hold out hope for a complete mystery that may come out of the blue...stranger things can happen.

AND...as much as I despise the Klits and their craptasticly boring, unentertaining (IMO) style....I have always given them credit for at the very least keeping the HW division in order, as in...2 stable, champions and the rest a bunch of crap.

THE REAL AWFUL HW division is yet to come...once these two retire. Can the crap that exists outside of the Klits would be on such an even playing field of shit....they would swap belts like little kids swapping baseball cards....and THEN you would have zero consistancy, which is even worse than consistant crap HW title fights between the two bros.

You asked for a name...and you are righ there is little out there...but...how about George Foreman's son? George Foreman the 15th...or whatever he's up to now....

The guy is being moved along VERY slowly, but is very tall and from what I've heard very much like his old man...wicked jab. AND...he does have one hell of an ex-champ to guide him...maybe a possibility.???

I hope.




Allow me to take this one TWB my brother.

My friend...asking a person what your "top 3 fights Botha had".....is like asking a person to pick out their favorite sunset....much like all of the beautiful splendors of the Earth that God has given us....The Sphinx in Egypt, Mount Everest, The moon.....he also gave us the Frans Botha boxing career....one is not better than the other....you just have to look at each as a snowflake....each special, unique and an example of perfection!

There aren't even any worthwhile statements to make about the heavyweights anymore.

Klitschkos hold the belts. Challengers keep getting pummeled. This will persist until the brothers retire out of sheer boredom or one of them goes to Tokyo, gets preoccupied with coke and whores and gets Buster Douglas'd.

i think Deontay Wilder gets moved carefully until the brothers are gone. he's a legitimate big guy but he needs to put on some weight, if he can get to 230-240 he'll have the physical tools to be the man at HW. the active guy with some heart who i would put my money on is Helenius, he needs time to develop but he already has the size and some of the tools to be the champ. my only real problem with him is he might get rushed into a fight with the Klits and it'll do more harm than good.