Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Numbers Don't Lie
FightHype Community > BOXING HYPE > Boxing
Pages: 1, 2
MaxPayne
Manny Pacquiao transcends the sport of boxing. He’s the boxing world’s biggest star, an international phenomenon, the likes of which have not been seen since the days of Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson.

There are those however, who would question the way this rise to stardom happened; that there may be something sinister lurking in history’s forgotten cellars. Where does the threshold between the possibilities of human endeavor and superhuman abilities really lie? Those who claim that Manny Pacquiao has had help of the wrong kind as he has risen through the boxing ranks are generally vilified and called intolerable naysayers and conspiracy theorists.

I for years have remained impartial in this debate.

For the first time, I will attempt to mathematically and logically discern clues as to where the truth may really lie.

I’ve decided to take a look at Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather’s rise through weight classes over the years, specifically focusing on super-featherweight and above. I have used boxrec.com’s records of their weigh-in weights for fights taking place at these weights over the years.
MaxPayne
Let’s begin with Pacquiao.

On March 15th, 2008, Pacquiao fought Juan Manuel Marquez, weighing in at 130 lbs. This was their second fight and ended in a majority decision victory for Pacquiao.

3 months later, on June 28th, 2008, Pacquiao fought David Diaz, weighing in at 134.5 lbs. Pacquiao stopped Diaz in 9 rounds.

The only time Diaz had been stopped or even beaten before this, was in 2005 against Kendall Holt, a fight which occurred at 140 lbs. For the next 3 years, he would fight at lightweight, winning all of his matches.

Taking a step back, this is an instance of a man (Diaz), who had fought exclusively at lightweight and light-welterweight, being stopped by a man (Pacquiao), who had never weighed in above 130 lbs. in his career before then, and who had gained that weight in a period of 3 months.

Less than 6 months later, on December 12th, 2008, Pacquiao fought Oscar De La Hoya, weighing in at 142 lbs. De La Hoya was stopped in 8 rounds.

Let’s recap 2008 for Manny Pacquiao: he went from fighting at 130 lbs. in March 2008 to fighting at 142 lbs. by December 2008. In effect, he jumped nearly 3 weight classes in less than 9 months and along the way, stopped 2 naturally bigger men who had been fighting at those weights or higher for years. He was 29-30 years old at the time.

From 2009 onwards, Pacquiao fought at between 138 lbs. and 145.75 lbs , continuing on his journey and emphatically stopping larger men (Hatton, Cotto), or brutalizing them over 12 rounds (Margarito). The only ones to come out unscathed (Clottey, Mosley) had done so by refusing to engage him for large parts of their contests.

MaxPayne
Now, let’s switch to Floyd Mayweather.

On November 10th, 2001, Mayweather fought Jesus Chavez, weighing in at 129.5 lbs. Chavez was stopped in 9 rounds.

On April 20th, 2002, Mayweather fought Jose Luis Castillo, weighing in at 134.5 lbs. Mayweather won a decision.

From April 2002 to November 2003, Mayweather fought a total of 4 bouts at 135 lbs. and achieved 3 decisions and one stoppage, a KO against Philip N’dou.

6 months later, on May 22nd, 2004, Mayweather fought DeMarcus Corley at 140 lbs. and won a decision.

From May 2004 to June 2005, Mayweather would fight a total of 3 bouts at 140 lbs, achieving 2 stoppages and one decision.

On November 19th, 2005, Mayweather fought Sharmba Mitchell, weighing in at 147 lbs, stopping him in 6 rounds.

To recap: Floyd Mayweather went from fighting at 130 lbs to 147 lbs, 3 weight classes, over the course of 4 years, from November 2001 to November 2005. In this time, he fought 8 bouts and achieved 4 stoppages. He went from age 24 to age 28 during this time.

Manny Pacquiao achieved the same feat in 9 months
MaxPayne
Naturally, one must look beyond weight gain and delve deeper. Let’s analyze the stoppages that both men have attained on either side of fighting at super featherweight (Note: I’ve counted KO’s, TKO’s and RTD’s, as boxrec.com has classified them). The idea here is to get a sense of the general stopping power/propensity of both men.

At Super Feathweight and below, Manny Pacquiao fought 51 total bouts. He stopped 36 of his opponents, which represents a 71% stoppage rate.

At Super Featherweight and below, Floyd Mayweather fought 27 total bouts. He stopped 20 of his opponents, which represents a 74% stoppage rate.

At or below Super Featherweight Mayweather’s stoppage % is actually slightly higher than that of Manny Pacquiao.

What is fascinating is that Floyd Mayweather has rarely been a volume puncher, even at lower weights, preferring to methodically break his opponents down. Fighting a more conservative style than Pacquiao, against opponents who some would argue have better overall defensive skills, Floyd Mayweather was still able to exhibit a greater stoppage rate than Manny Pacquiao.

To delve one level deeper, of those stoppages, let us analyze the number of rounds taken to stop the opponents for each fighter.

It took Manny Pacquiao an average of 4.1 rounds to stop an opponent, at or below Super Featherweight.

It took Floyd Mayweather an average of 5 rounds to stop an opponent, at or below Super Featherweight.

These numbers favor Pacquiao, and from a statistical viewpoint, one can conclude that both men exhibit a very similar stopping power at weights at or below Super Featherweight.
MaxPayne
Now, let us turn our attention to the post Super Featherweight careers of both men.

To date, Manny Pacquiao has fought 7 bouts above the 130 lbs. In these bouts, he has achieved 4 stoppages (Diaz, De La Hoya, Hatton and Cotto), for a stoppage rate of 57%.

One could argue that the Antonio Margarito unanimous decision victory should also be added to this list, given the grievous facial injuries that Margarito suffered. However, for the purposes of consistency, we shall not include this instance in the analysis.

To date, Floyd Mayweather has fought 15 times above 130 lbs. In these bouts, he has achieved 6 stoppages (N’dou, Bruseles, Gatti, Mitchell, Hatton and Ortiz), for a stoppage rate of 40%.

For bouts above Super Featherweight, Manny Pacquiao has shown significantly higher stopping power than Floyd Mayweather. The spread between the percentages is 17%.

Furthermore, if one were to factor in Margarito (majority agree that the fight could easily have been stopped in the 10th or 11th round) and Ortiz (Mayweather knocked him out when he was seemingly distracted), the spread increases to a 33% difference in stoppage % at higher weight classes between Pacquiao and Mayweather, in the former’s favor.

Hatton, who Mayweather broke down and knocked out in 10 rounds, was viciously knocked out in 2 rounds by Pacquiao.

De La Hoya, who Mayweather was not even able to hurt, was destroyed in 8 rounds by Pacquiao (weight drain on De La Hoya’s end was also a factor here).

Mosley, who Mayweather similarly was never able to hurt, was on the run from Pacquiao for the entirety of the fight, and even dropped in the early rounds.
MaxPayne
In conclusion, 3 key points:

Manny Pacquiao jumped 3 weight classes in 9 months, a total gain that took Floyd Mayweather 4 years.

Following the path from Super Featherweight to Light Middleweight, Manny Pacquiao has seen little drop off in his overall stopping power (factoring in the Margarito instance). Floyd Mayweather has seen a significant drop in stopping power of more than 30% when fighting above Super Featherweight. Consider once again that in the lower weights, we have shown that the men exhibited almost equal power.

Examining bouts with common opponents, Pacquiao emphatically stopped or dominated opponents who Floyd laboriously broke down or did not hurt during his bouts with them.

In the movie “New Jack City”, Nino Brown famously states, “Money talks, bullshit runs a marathon.”

The masses pour adulation upon a man who transcends a sport, but beyond the beams of light emanating from the living legend’s meteoric rise, there may be patches of darkness that only the discerning eye can perceive.

What Nino Brown meant to say, is that the numbers never lie.

(All data has been sourced from www.boxrec.com.)
caneman
LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diaz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! laugh.gif
sduck
How significant would things change if you include their weights on fight night?
MaxPayne
QUOTE (sduck @ Nov 4 2011, 06:45 PM) *
How significant would things change if you include their weights on fight night?


I thought about that for some time. However, what I really wanted to look into, was the amount of muscle mass that Pacquiao and Mayweather put on over the years as they moved up. Comparisons of weigh-in weight are reflective of how much sheer muscle mass is carried on a frame.

In Pacquiao's case, one can conclude that the 9 month jump to 12 lbs of effective muscle mass in weight is fascinating.
HazConvictedFelonMane
Very informative. Certain people would call this a biased thread, but it's cool. You can't please all, at all times. It's very informative none the less. It's good research for those who aren't in the know.
caneman
Max did do a good job with his info but I don't see where he brought his power up really and if(what was it you said 57% KO rate)you compare that to 122,126 and 130, you will find his KO/TKO rate was much higher. If DLH didn't call Pac out, we might not have seen him go up so much in weight.

The fact is(ask FMJ if you don't believe me), if you wanted your biggest payday, you go after/fight DLH. Just like it wouldn't surprise me if there is still more $$$ in a DLH comeback fight vs either guy especially on Cinco de Mayo then FMJ vs Pac. Although Pac and FMJ have got a lot more fans since the DLH fight.

Another thing is FMJ never was a serious power puncher or 1 punch fighter yet he has AMAZING SKILLS! The only other thing I can say is Pacman has improved a great deal since 2008 with better rthand, footwork and combination...better head movement and more angles. Does that mean Pac beats FMJ? HELL NO. Chances are FMJ beats him in any matter it takes to do so. Do I think FMJ should get a pass or automatic win? NO! The only thing is OSDT IS 24/7 365 days a year and 8 weeks doesn't mean shit.
thehype
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 4 2011, 05:55 PM) *
LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diainz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! laugh.gif


Not EVERY month. You have to cycle on and off that stuff.

laugh.gif

As for not seeing the difference in power, I think the proof is on the faces of everyone he fights. I don't remember Marco Antonio Barrera or Oscar Larios looking quite as busted up as De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito or even Mosley. In fact, out of ALL the opponents they've faced, I don't remember any of those guys looking quite as busted up as they did against THE Pacquiao. Truly amazing.

dntknw.gif
caneman
QUOTE (thehype @ Nov 4 2011, 06:31 PM) *
Not EVERY month. You have to cycle on and off that stuff.

laugh.gif

laugh.gif
caneman
QUOTE (thehype @ Nov 4 2011, 06:31 PM) *
Not EVERY month. You have to cycle on and off that stuff.

laugh.gif

As for not seeing the difference in power, I think the proof is on the faces of everyone he fights. I don't remember Marco Antonio Barrera or Oscar Larios looking quite as busted up as De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito or even Mosley. In fact, out of ALL the opponents they've faced, I don't remember any of those guys looking quite as busted up as they did against THE Pacquiao. Truly amazing.

dntknw.gif



OK but I also don't think ANY OF THOSE GUYS got hit that many times either. Personally I think that's the difference, how many times they got hit by solid punches.

dntknw.gif
MaxPayne
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 4 2011, 07:48 PM) *
OK but I also don't think ANY OF THOSE GUYS got hit that many times either. Personally I think that's the difference, how many times they got hit by solid punches.

dntknw.gif


So let's think about this.

Your implication is that defensively, these guys at light welterweight and above aren't quick enough to evade Pacquiao's punches. However, that would be as a result of them having greater mass in their bodies. This in turn implies that they have greater punch resilience than the guys at the lower weights. It takes a greater overall force to inflict damage, due to the greater mass that bigger guys carry.

There is no historical precedent for the way Pacquiao has hurt guys who are naturally bigger than him and have been at those larger weights for years.

When Roy Jones Jr. jumped up to Heavyweight to fight John Ruiz, Ruiz walked through all of Jones' punches. Jones could not hurt him at all. Watch the fight again and even take a close look at Ruiz's face after the fight, even though Jones was peppering him with all kinds of shots.

When Jack Johnson fought Jess Willard, sure, he landed at will and won 26 consecutive rounds, but got outlasted by Willard, who was a bigger guy and could take all the power in Jack's punches and still keep coming forward.

When Floyd went up to lightweight, both of his fights against Castillo were competitive simply because Floyd was unable to hurt Castillo at all. He landed on so many accurate power punches, but Castillo kept walking through the blows.

I've already shown how at the lower weights, Mayweather and Pacquiao seem to have identical power. From a pure hand speed perspective, they're also very comparable. In fact, if anything, most will agree that Floyd is a hair quicker than Pacquiao.

So we have 2 guys with comparable speed and power at certain weight classes, and one has a naturally larger frame (maximum Pacquiao has ever weighed is 145.75 lbs and max Floyd has weighed is 150 lbs), and somehow, Pacquiao has more stopping power against bigger guys ?

Something simply does not add up.
caneman
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 07:51 PM) *
So let's think about this.

Your implication is that defensively, these guys at light welterweight and above aren't quick enough to evade Pacquiao's punches. However, that would be as a result of them having greater mass in their bodies. This in turn implies that they have greater punch resilience than the guys at the lower weights. It takes a greater overall force to inflict damage, due to the greater mass that bigger guys carry.

There is no historical precedent for the way Pacquiao has hurt guys who are naturally bigger than him and have been at those larger weights for years.

When Roy Jones Jr. jumped up to Heavyweight to fight John Ruiz, Ruiz walked through all of Jones' punches. Jones could not hurt him at all. Watch the fight again and even take a close look at Ruiz's face after the fight, even though Jones was peppering him with all kinds of shots.

When Jack Johnson fought Jess Willard, sure, he landed at will and won 26 consecutive rounds, but got outlasted by Willard, who was a bigger guy and could take all the power in Jack's punches and still keep coming forward.

When Floyd went up to lightweight, both of his fights against Castillo were competitive simply because Floyd was unable to hurt Castillo at all. He landed on so many accurate power punches, but Castillo kept walking through the blows.

I've already shown how at the lower weights, Mayweather and Pacquiao seem to have identical power. From a pure hand speed perspective, they're also very comparable. In fact, if anything, most will agree that Floyd is a hair quicker than Pacquiao.

So we have 2 guys with comparable speed and power at certain weight classes, and one has a naturally larger frame (maximum Pacquiao has ever weighed is 145.75 lbs and max Floyd has weighed is 150 lbs), and somehow, Pacquiao has more stopping power against bigger guys ?

Something simply does not add up.


You are trying hard and seem intelligent but fuck mass bro, what I am saying is Pacman hit these guys with everything but the kitchen sink. Pac lands more than FMJ cause he throws twice as many punches. Furthermore, FMJ is fine with boxing 12 rounds and taking less risks. Anyhow, nice writing but I see what your opinion is and you have your right to that just like I have my right to mine! lol
xxxxxx
Good stuff Max. Very interesting and informative.
MaxPayne
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 4 2011, 09:37 PM) *
You are trying hard and seem intelligent but fuck mass bro, what I am saying is Pacman hit these guys with everything but the kitchen sink. Pac lands more than FMJ cause he throws twice as many punches. Furthermore, FMJ is fine with boxing 12 rounds and taking less risks. Anyhow, nice writing but I see what your opinion is and you have your right to that just like I have my right to mine! lol


No doubt, I should have actually pointed out that your thought helped me think further down a certain line. This entire area is just something that occurred to me today and as I started to look up the details, I just got deeper into it because it was so interesting. I just came away thinking that those who do believe that there's been some skull-duggery involved may well have a point.

Personally, the steroid controversy doesn't bother me, because the fight game is about skills. Floyd wins against Pacquiao because he matches up well with him speed wise and is simply a better boxer. At least that's my bet.
MaxPayne
QUOTE (xxxxxx @ Nov 4 2011, 09:40 PM) *
Good stuff Max. Very interesting and informative.


Thanks man, hope you enjoyed reading it !
Hops
So, based on this available info, when do you think Pacquaio started using PED's? And let's put you answer on record.
checkleft

QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 08:51 PM) *
So let's think about this.

Your implication is that defensively, these guys at light welterweight and above aren't quick enough to evade Pacquiao's punches. However, that would be as a result of them having greater mass in their bodies. This in turn implies that they have greater punch resilience than the guys at the lower weights. It takes a greater overall force to inflict damage, due to the greater mass that bigger guys carry.

There is no historical precedent for the way Pacquiao has hurt guys who are naturally bigger than him and have been at those larger weights for years.

When Roy Jones Jr. jumped up to Heavyweight to fight John Ruiz, Ruiz walked through all of Jones' punches. Jones could not hurt him at all. Watch the fight again and even take a close look at Ruiz's face after the fight, even though Jones was peppering him with all kinds of shots.

When Jack Johnson fought Jess Willard, sure, he landed at will and won 26 consecutive rounds, but got outlasted by Willard, who was a bigger guy and could take all the power in Jack's punches and still keep coming forward.

When Floyd went up to lightweight, both of his fights against Castillo were competitive simply because Floyd was unable to hurt Castillo at all. He landed on so many accurate power punches, but Castillo kept walking through the blows.

I've already shown how at the lower weights, Mayweather and Pacquiao seem to have identical power. From a pure hand speed perspective, they're also very comparable. In fact, if anything, most will agree that Floyd is a hair quicker than Pacquiao.

So we have 2 guys with comparable speed and power at certain weight classes, and one has a naturally larger frame (maximum Pacquiao has ever weighed is 145.75 lbs and max Floyd has weighed is 150 lbs), and somehow, Pacquiao has more stopping power against bigger guys ?

Something simply does not add up.


See this is actually pretty simple to explain.
When your in the ring sitting on punches makes you set your feet and reduces your chances of stepping out of the way of on coming punches in time.
This will take uss back to the competition they face.
Manny so far at bigger weights has been faced with opponents who with their respective skill sets give him the luxury of sitting on his punches and still being able to move out of the way.
Not that he doesn't have fantastic power and footwork.
Mayweather being a defensive fighter does not plant his feet, shooting punches from his shoulders rather than following through to increase speed.
This helps him weave duck and step away from danger.

When I first sparred I tried to sit on everything, but when the pocket got dangerous it took too long to step out. So you have to be careful with who you choose to sit on them with.
It's all math and percentages outside the ring, but in the ring it mostly has to do with technique your opposition and your/their strengths and weaknesses.
MaxPayne
QUOTE (Hops @ Nov 4 2011, 10:20 PM) *
So, based on this available info, when do you think Pacquaio started using PED's? And let's put you answer on record.


If steroids were in fact involved, I would say that he started cycling around the time of the second Marquez fight, given the weight gain and performances we saw in 2008.
mgrover
I doubt its peds, just cherry picking fighters, mmmm i could eat some cherries right now
jlupi
LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diaz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! >>>>>

agree.gif
caneman
QUOTE (jlupi @ Nov 5 2011, 08:22 AM) *
LOLZ! When he fought JMM the night of the fight he was 139 and Diaz he was 142 and now is normally under 147. But you win, Pacman is snoring and shooting roids! And smoking them the 2nd Saturday of every month! >>>>>

agree.gif

Meaning? lol
gbh32001
$1M question, with or without PED will FMJ fight Pacquiao? I don't think so. Floyd is a businessman, he will not fight a man whom he is uncertain of defeating him.
How in the hell he accepted JMM as a ligitimate contender?Because JMM called him out?Hatton?Floyd can fight at 154 and yet he is lurking at 126-147 for a prey.
I bet this little fella is Ivan calderon. And the latest news now is, the "Winner Takes All Challenge".
Cheesey1
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 05:48 PM) *
In conclusion, 3 key points:

Manny Pacquiao jumped 3 weight classes in 9 months, a total gain that took Floyd Mayweather 4 years.

Following the path from Super Featherweight to Light Middleweight, Manny Pacquiao has seen little drop off in his overall stopping power (factoring in the Margarito instance). Floyd Mayweather has seen a significant drop in stopping power of more than 30% when fighting above Super Featherweight. Consider once again that in the lower weights, we have shown that the men exhibited almost equal power.

Examining bouts with common opponents, Pacquiao emphatically stopped or dominated opponents who Floyd laboriously broke down or did not hurt during his bouts with them.

In the movie “New Jack City”, Nino Brown famously states, “Money talks, bullshit runs a marathon.”

The masses pour adulation upon a man who transcends a sport, but beyond the beams of light emanating from the living legend’s meteoric rise, there may be patches of darkness that only the discerning eye can perceive.

What Nino Brown meant to say, is that the numbers never lie.

(All data has been sourced from www.boxrec.com.)

Interesting. Good post.
MaxPayne
QUOTE (gbh32001 @ Nov 5 2011, 10:45 AM) *
$1M question, with or without PED will FMJ fight Pacquiao? I don't think so. Floyd is a businessman, he will not fight a man whom he is uncertain of defeating him.
How in the hell he accepted JMM as a ligitimate contender?Because JMM called him out?Hatton?Floyd can fight at 154 and yet he is lurking at 126-147 for a prey.
I bet this little fella is Ivan calderon. And the latest news now is, the "Winner Takes All Challenge".


I believe this topic has been covered several times in the Manny Pacquiao - Floyd Mayweather Negotiations thread, but I'll give you a quick synopsis:

Long story short, Top Rank Promotions and Bob Arum have no desire to have their most marketable asset lose significant value while there is still so much potential to generate revenue. All you have to do is think about this strictly as a business.

The amount of revenue that is generated from in-house PPV events is so high that it presents a low risk - very high reward alternative to to the high risk - very high reward scenario that comes with a Floyd fight.

Top Rank does not do business with any other promotions. Pacquiao fought Cotto (in-house), Margarito (in-house), Mosley (broke his contract with Golden Boy) and Juan Manuel Marquez (one time Golden Boy, now Top Rank).

Co-promotion means that you split all revenue from the events, and Top Rank wants no part of filling the coffers of Golden Boy Promotions or Floyd Mayweather.

All you have to do is follow the money trail.

Mayweather by all accounts has accepted Pacquiao's demands: 8 oz. gloves, ring size, giving Pacquiao second entrance to the ring and a 50-50 split of revenues, even though Mayweather is by far the bigger PPV attraction, going by total buys and live gate revenue.

Before you bring up the fact that the De La Hoya fight skews those numbers, I will remind you that De La Hoya never even got close to the 2 MM buy mark with anyone else, let alone the 2.45 MM buy figure that achieved. Mayweather was equally responsible for the numbers that fight did. When Oscar fought Trinidad, and they were both unbeaten at the time, that fight generated 1.4 MM buys, to put things into perspective.

He also accepted a clause that would cause him to pay a $10 MM penalty per pound that he came in over the 147 lbs. welterweight limit.

Out of all of this, Mayweather has simply asked for Olympic style random blood and urine testing, administered by USADA. Arum and Pacquiao have balked at these suggestions and have broken off negotiations.

We hear different reasons, from fear of needles (this coming from a fighter who has multiple tattoos), possibly being weakened if a syringe of blood is taken on the day of the fight (medically impossible) and of course superstitions/religious barriers to giving blood so close to a contest. I don't know about Filipino cultural superstitions, but I'd be happy if someone could open up a Bible and find out where it says that one is to not give blood before engaging in combat.

Until all other revenue generators have been exhausted for Pacquiao (Bradley, Rios, possibly second fight against Cotto at 150), we will not see Top Rank actually be serious in negotiating with the Mayweather camp.

Arum lost his biggest revenue generator when Floyd Mayweather walked away from Top Rank and wanted to promote his own fights. He won't lose his next biggest attraction to the same guy who gave his business a hit in the first place. Not until he has done 2 things:

1) Financially squeezed every dollar out of Pacquiao's career from fights with others.

2) Secured successors to Pacquiao's place as Top Rank's most marketable asset.

When those 2 conditions have been met, the fight will be made.

Floyd believes he can beat Pacquiao, Vegas agrees with him and people who understand boxing understand why that's the case.

Floyd has fought guys who box, guys who swarm, guys who try to bully, both southpaw and orthodox. He's beaten them all and done so convincingly.

Pacquiao, while a brilliant offensive fighter, is limited from a technical standpoint. I can even tell you how he's going to get beaten: he'll keep throwing that flicking jab out there as a set up for his straight left hand, except it won't even get to that point.

Floyd will time that jab and come over it with the straight right hand and then move out of the way. When it gets close/inside, he'll open up with left hooks and continue moving out of the way. Boxing 101.

One last point. Floyd is barely a welterweight, given that he walks around at 150 lbs. and fights at 147 lbs. Sure, he can fight guys at 154 lbs., but he'll weigh in at least 4 - 5 pounds under the light middleweight limit.

Floyd coming off of a 2 year layoff, fighting the Number 2 rated Pound for Pound boxer in the world at the time, Juan Manuel Marquez was actually impressive. It's not like he was taking on some club fighter. He was fighting a guy who outboxed and had very close fights with the guy who people rated Number 1.

Ricky Hatton at the time of their fight, was undefeated and seen as a great match-up for Mayweather, given that he was a punishing body puncher. It made for a great event, because how often do you get to see 2 undefeated fighters put their records on the line ? Mayweather beat Hatton at his own game, punishing him inside and strafing him from distance.

At the end of the day, it's about the business aspect of boxing for BOTH Mayweather and Pacquiao. Do you think that Pacquiao has a problem with the fact that he's taking safe fights but earning $30 MM for each of them ?
Plah
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 5 2011, 12:23 PM) *
I believe this topic has been covered several times in the Manny Pacquiao - Floyd Mayweather Negotiations thread, but I'll give you a quick synopsis:

Long story short, Top Rank Promotions and Bob Arum have no desire to have their most marketable asset lose significant value while there is still so much potential to generate revenue. All you have to do is think about this strictly as a business.

The amount of revenue that is generated from in-house PPV events is so high that it presents a low risk - very high reward alternative to to the high risk - very high reward scenario that comes with a Floyd fight.

Top Rank does not do business with any other promotions. Pacquiao fought Cotto (in-house), Margarito (in-house), Mosley (broke his contract with Golden Boy) and Juan Manuel Marquez (one time Golden Boy, now Top Rank).

Co-promotion means that you split all revenue from the events, and Top Rank wants no part of filling the coffers of Golden Boy Promotions or Floyd Mayweather.

All you have to do is follow the money trail.

Mayweather by all accounts has accepted Pacquiao's demands: 8 oz. gloves, ring size, giving Pacquiao second entrance to the ring and a 50-50 split of revenues, even though Mayweather is by far the bigger PPV attraction, going by total buys and live gate revenue.

Before you bring up the fact that the De La Hoya fight skews those numbers, I will remind you that De La Hoya never even got close to the 2 MM buy mark with anyone else, let alone the 2.45 MM buy figure that achieved. Mayweather was equally responsible for the numbers that fight did. When Oscar fought Trinidad, and they were both unbeaten at the time, that fight generated 1.4 MM buys, to put things into perspective.

He also accepted a clause that would cause him to pay a $10 MM penalty per pound that he came in over the 147 lbs. welterweight limit.

Out of all of this, Mayweather has simply asked for Olympic style random blood and urine testing, administered by USADA. Arum and Pacquiao have balked at these suggestions and have broken off negotiations.

We hear different reasons, from fear of needles (this coming from a fighter who has multiple tattoos), possibly being weakened if a syringe of blood is taken on the day of the fight (medically impossible) and of course superstitions/religious barriers to giving blood so close to a contest. I don't know about Filipino cultural superstitions, but I'd be happy if someone could open up a Bible and find out where it says that one is to not give blood before engaging in combat.

Until all other revenue generators have been exhausted for Pacquiao (Bradley, Rios, possibly second fight against Cotto at 150), we will not see Top Rank actually be serious in negotiating with the Mayweather camp.

Arum lost his biggest revenue generator when Floyd Mayweather walked away from Top Rank and wanted to promote his own fights. He won't lose his next biggest attraction to the same guy who gave his business a hit in the first place. Not until he has done 2 things:

1) Financially squeezed every dollar out of Pacquiao's career from fights with others.

2) Secured successors to Pacquiao's place as Top Rank's most marketable asset.

When those 2 conditions have been met, the fight will be made.

Floyd believes he can beat Pacquiao, Vegas agrees with him and people who understand boxing understand why that's the case.

Floyd has fought guys who box, guys who swarm, guys who try to bully, both southpaw and orthodox. He's beaten them all and done so convincingly.

Pacquiao, while a brilliant offensive fighter, is limited from a technical standpoint. I can even tell you how he's going to get beaten: he'll keep throwing that flicking jab out there as a set up for his straight left hand, except it won't even get to that point.

Floyd will time that jab and come over it with the straight right hand and then move out of the way. When it gets close/inside, he'll open up with left hooks and continue moving out of the way. Boxing 101.

One last point. Floyd is barely a welterweight, given that he walks around at 150 lbs. and fights at 147 lbs. Sure, he can fight guys at 154 lbs., but he'll weigh in at least 4 - 5 pounds under the light middleweight limit.

Floyd coming off of a 2 year layoff, fighting the Number 2 rated Pound for Pound boxer in the world at the time, Juan Manuel Marquez was actually impressive. It's not like he was taking on some club fighter. He was fighting a guy who outboxed and had very close fights with the guy who people rated Number 1.

Ricky Hatton at the time of their fight, was undefeated and seen as a great match-up for Mayweather, given that he was a punishing body puncher. It made for a great event, because how often do you get to see 2 undefeated fighters put their records on the line ? Mayweather beat Hatton at his own game, punishing him inside and strafing him from distance.

At the end of the day, it's about the business aspect of boxing for BOTH Mayweather and Pacquiao. Do you think that Pacquiao has a problem with the fact that he's taking safe fights but earning $30 MM for each of them ?




+100. But it wont matter how many times you explain to people these points, they wont listen, smh.
mrchitown
Very informative post. Very unique way to look @ things between both fighters
sduck
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 08:51 PM) *
So let's think about this.

Your implication is that defensively, these guys at light welterweight and above aren't quick enough to evade Pacquiao's punches. However, that would be as a result of them having greater mass in their bodies. This in turn implies that they have greater punch resilience than the guys at the lower weights. It takes a greater overall force to inflict damage, due to the greater mass that bigger guys carry.

There is no historical precedent for the way Pacquiao has hurt guys who are naturally bigger than him and have been at those larger weights for years.

When Roy Jones Jr. jumped up to Heavyweight to fight John Ruiz, Ruiz walked through all of Jones' punches. Jones could not hurt him at all. Watch the fight again and even take a close look at Ruiz's face after the fight, even though Jones was peppering him with all kinds of shots.

When Jack Johnson fought Jess Willard, sure, he landed at will and won 26 consecutive rounds, but got outlasted by Willard, who was a bigger guy and could take all the power in Jack's punches and still keep coming forward.

When Floyd went up to lightweight, both of his fights against Castillo were competitive simply because Floyd was unable to hurt Castillo at all. He landed on so many accurate power punches, but Castillo kept walking through the blows.

I've already shown how at the lower weights, Mayweather and Pacquiao seem to have identical power. From a pure hand speed perspective, they're also very comparable. In fact, if anything, most will agree that Floyd is a hair quicker than Pacquiao.

So we have 2 guys with comparable speed and power at certain weight classes, and one has a naturally larger frame (maximum Pacquiao has ever weighed is 145.75 lbs and max Floyd has weighed is 150 lbs), and somehow, Pacquiao has more stopping power against bigger guys ?

Something simply does not add up.

I can't speak on the other fights, but I've watched his fights with Castillo multiple times due to the popularity and controversy. Floyd weighed in higher than 135 on fight nights when he fought at 130, I don't think it was because of moving up in weight and not being able to hurt Castillo, seeing as how he couldn't really hurt him the second time either. Castillo was just that kind of fighter who ignored punishment and turned it into a dirty fight. Mayweather didn't look so sharp in the first fight compared to the second, that's why in the second he won a lot more convincingly. It's just more of those cases that it just wasn't Floyd's night and Castillo got the best of him, had nothing to do with weight.

Mayweather was definitely a harder puncher back then than he is now. But to say he ever punched as hard as Pacquiao, lol I disagree with that. Pacquiao may be a harder puncher now than he was then, because he's never been obliterating people's faces like he is now, and he's always fought some flat-footed punching bag kind of opponents.
Mayweather has never had that initial KO power, only against bums. Pacquiao has always had that kind of power.

As far as speed, it's hard to tell because Pacquiao throws a lot more combinations making him look faster, but who really is faster? Is there a video comparison at all?

QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 4 2011, 09:41 PM) *
No doubt, I should have actually pointed out that your thought helped me think further down a certain line. This entire area is just something that occurred to me today and as I started to look up the details, I just got deeper into it because it was so interesting. I just came away thinking that those who do believe that there's been some skull-duggery involved may well have a point.

Personally, the steroid controversy doesn't bother me, because the fight game is about skills. Floyd wins against Pacquiao because he matches up well with him speed wise and is simply a better boxer. At least that's my bet.

A lot of people seem to think, even with roids all up in Pacquiao's body, Mayweather would still win, even Mayweather's camp thinks so. So you'd think Floyd would have the same opinion... Why wouldn't he just drop OSDT which is so controversial beyond other means, just to make the fight happen. It would mean Floyd is showing some obvious fear of the fight. That doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but just throwing that out there.

QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 5 2011, 12:19 AM) *
If steroids were in fact involved, I would say that he started cycling around the time of the second Marquez fight, given the weight gain and performances we saw in 2008.

I would say after the Marquez fight. Marquez won the second fight to me and most other people in 2008, he made Pacquiao look even more sloppy in compared to their first fight. However Pacquiao looks even better only a few months later when he fought David Diaz in 2008. Diaz's face is busted, Pacquiao looked faster, stronger, full of energy, even when thought to be drained from all the wars and moving up in weight, he looked suspiciously better than ever. I would say reasonably from Diaz and up is when he started juicing, if he really is juicing. And that's also when he got the controversial Alex Ariza as his strength and conditioning coach.
caneman
QUOTE (sduck @ Nov 5 2011, 11:57 PM) *
I can't speak on the other fights, but I've watched his fights with Castillo multiple times due to the popularity and controversy. Floyd weighed in higher than 135 on fight nights when he fought at 130, I don't think it was because of moving up in weight and not being able to hurt Castillo, seeing as how he couldn't really hurt him the second time either. Castillo was just that kind of fighter who ignored punishment and turned it into a dirty fight. Mayweather didn't look so sharp in the first fight compared to the second, that's why in the second he won a lot more convincingly. It's just more of those cases that it just wasn't Floyd's night and Castillo got the best of him, had nothing to do with weight.

Mayweather was definitely a harder puncher back then than he is now. But to say he ever punched as hard as Pacquiao, lol I disagree with that. Pacquiao may be a harder puncher now than he was then, because he's never been obliterating people's faces like he is now, and he's always fought some flat-footed punching bag kind of opponents.
Mayweather has never had that initial KO power, only against bums. Pacquiao has always had that kind of power.

As far as speed, it's hard to tell because Pacquiao throws a lot more combinations making him look faster, but who really is faster? Is there a video comparison at all?


A lot of people seem to think, even with roids all up in Pacquiao's body, Mayweather would still win, even Mayweather's camp thinks so. So you'd think Floyd would have the same opinion... Why wouldn't he just drop OSDT which is so controversial beyond other means, just to make the fight happen. It would mean Floyd is showing some obvious fear of the fight. That doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but just throwing that out there.


I would say after the Marquez fight. Marquez won the second fight to me and most other people in 2008, he made Pacquiao look even more sloppy in compared to their first fight. However Pacquiao looks even better only a few months later when he fought David Diaz in 2008. Diaz's face is busted, Pacquiao looked faster, stronger, full of energy, even when thought to be drained from all the wars and moving up in weight, he looked suspiciously better than ever. I would say reasonably from Diaz and up is when he started juicing, if he really is juicing. And that's also when he got the controversial Alex Ariza as his strength and conditioning coach.

Any version of pacman beats a slow ass Dias IMO but whatever you guys say!
sduck
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 6 2011, 01:42 AM) *
Any version of pacman beats a slow ass Dias IMO but whatever you guys say!

Of course he would. But I don't think he's ever beaten someone so badly prior to Diaz where they came out visually looking like a troll.

I found out something else. When Mayweather fought Big Show at Wrestlemania 24 March 30, 2008, he was announced to be 159lbs. If that weight was accurately true, how did he put on that weight and cut all of it, especially while still looking very fit and performing very well...

Additional info; Floyd's weight in recent years
April 8, 2006 - Mayweather-Judah - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in 146lbs
Nov 4, 2006 - Mayweather-Baldomir - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in 149lbs
May 5, 2007 - Mayweather-De La Hoya - Pre-fight Weigh-in 150lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Dec 8, 2007 - Mayweather-Hatton - Pre-fight Weigh-in 147lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Sept 19, 2009 - Mayweather-Marquez - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
May 1, 2010 - Mayweather-Mosley - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Sept 17, 2011 - Mayweather-Ortiz - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146½ / Fight Weigh-in 150lbs

How much of a difference does this make? In a way, if it's possible for Floyd, why wouldn't it be possible for Manny? Max Payne, where u at.
NathanJassi90
QUOTE (sduck @ Nov 7 2011, 06:43 AM) *
I found out something else. When Mayweather fought Big Show at Wrestlemania 24 March 30, 2008, he was announced to be 159lbs. If that weight was accurately true, how did he put on that weight and cut all of it, especially while still looking very fit and performing very well...


Come on man, do you really believe what the WWE put out? They always announce the wrestlers with a higher weight than they really have. It's called a billed weight.
NathanJassi90
Finally, someone who knows some shit about boxing. Great post Max.
HazConvictedFelonMane
QUOTE (thehype @ Nov 4 2011, 07:31 PM) *
Not EVERY month. You have to cycle on and off that stuff.

laugh.gif

As for not seeing the difference in power, I think the proof is on the faces of everyone he fights. I don't remember Marco Antonio Barrera or Oscar Larios looking quite as busted up as De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito or even Mosley. In fact, out of ALL the opponents they've faced, I don't remember any of those guys looking quite as busted up as they did against THE Pacquiao. Truly amazing.

dntknw.gif


Very true. We didn't start seeing horror shows until after the addition of the S&C coach. All of these other fighters have never been busted up in such a fashion. It's odd how that begins to happen all of a sudden out of the blue. Maybe it also has something to do with the rolled up pieces of tape in between the knuckles. The same rolls that Roach didn't want Oscar to use against Manny. The same rolls of tape that were filmed being put on Pacquiao's hands prior to the Margarito fight. I posted the video proof of those same handwraps in one of these threads, so whoever tries to deny that ever happened, can see for themselves. Well anyway, Manny Pacquiao has his hands full come this Saturday. His REAL rival is looking to show everyone that Manny Pacquiao is human after all.
caneman
QUOTE (HazConvictedFelonMane @ Nov 7 2011, 07:10 AM) *
Very true. We didn't start seeing horror shows until after the addition of the S&C coach. All of these other fighters have never been busted up in such a fashion. It's odd how that begins to happen all of a sudden out of the blue. Maybe it also has something to do with the rolled up pieces of tape in between the knuckles. The same rolls that Roach didn't want Oscar to use against Manny. The same rolls of tape that were filmed being put on Pacquiao's hands prior to the Margarito fight. I posted the video proof of those same handwraps in one of these threads, so whoever tries to deny that ever happened, can see for themselves. Well anyway, Manny Pacquiao has his hands full come this Saturday. His REAL rival is looking to show everyone that Manny Pacquiao is human after all.



But when did those fighters EVEN get hit so many times? Especially so clean and straight? NEVER @ least by someone who sat on his punches. Pacman's arsenal has improve greatly since those days. Peeps can say anything they want but Pacman made Morales quit like a fighter with no heart, the same Morales who took/pushed Maidana to the limit.

RE post the video but one thing that is a fact, his opponents team watches the hand wraps and so does the commission. lol
MaxPayne
QUOTE (sduck @ Nov 7 2011, 12:43 AM) *
Of course he would. But I don't think he's ever beaten someone so badly prior to Diaz where they came out visually looking like a troll.

I found out something else. When Mayweather fought Big Show at Wrestlemania 24 March 30, 2008, he was announced to be 159lbs. If that weight was accurately true, how did he put on that weight and cut all of it, especially while still looking very fit and performing very well...

Additional info; Floyd's weight in recent years
April 8, 2006 - Mayweather-Judah - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in 146lbs
Nov 4, 2006 - Mayweather-Baldomir - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in 149lbs
May 5, 2007 - Mayweather-De La Hoya - Pre-fight Weigh-in 150lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Dec 8, 2007 - Mayweather-Hatton - Pre-fight Weigh-in 147lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Sept 19, 2009 - Mayweather-Marquez - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
May 1, 2010 - Mayweather-Mosley - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146lbs / Fight Weigh-in (No official number)
Sept 17, 2011 - Mayweather-Ortiz - Pre-fight Weigh-in 146½ / Fight Weigh-in 150lbs

How much of a difference does this make? In a way, if it's possible for Floyd, why wouldn't it be possible for Manny? Max Payne, where u at.


The research was examining the rise from Super Featherweight to Welterweight. Manny Pacquiao made that jump in under 1 year. Floyd Mayweather took 4 years. Your pre-fight weigh in weight is a pretty accurate indicator of the muscle and bone mass that you're carrying. Fight night shows water weight that you put on after you've hydrated yourself.
MaxPayne
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 7 2011, 09:53 AM) *
But when did those fighters EVEN get hit so many times? Especially so clean and straight? NEVER @ least by someone who sat on his punches. Pacman's arsenal has improve greatly since those days. Peeps can say anything they want but Pacman made Morales quit like a fighter with no heart, the same Morales who took/pushed Maidana to the limit.

RE post the video but one thing that is a fact, his opponents team watches the hand wraps and so does the commission. lol


Well, for comparisons' sake, let's compare Floyd and Manny's performances against De La Hoya.

Floyd Mayweather landed a total of 207 punches on De La Hoya and the fight went the distance.

Manny Pacquiao landed a total of 224 punches on De La Hoya and the fight was stopped in the 8th round.

Of course, in the second instance, De La Hoya was fighting at a ridiculous weight given his age and the point he was at in his career, which contributed to him fading and not being able to mount much of a defense as the fight wore on.

However, for them to land a similar number of punches and have such different outcomes ? Especially since the data shows that Manny and Floyd at Super Featherweight and below had pretty much the same overall stopping power ?

Listen, anything is possible. You get freaks of nature like Jim Thorpe, Bo Jackson, etc. every generation, but they're the exception and not the rule. Is Manny Pacquiao in that group, given that he has been able to carry his speed and power through so many weight classes ? Maybe.

Or maybe not.

Both sides have an argument, but the more I think about it, the more I find myself favoring the idea that there's something not right in this picture.
Cshel86
QUOTE (sduck @ Nov 7 2011, 12:43 AM) *
Of course he would. But I don't think he's ever beaten someone so badly prior to Diaz where they came out visually looking like a troll.

I found out something else. When Mayweather fought Big Show at Wrestlemania 24 March 30, 2008, he was announced to be 159lbs. If that weight was accurately true, how did he put on that weight and cut all of it, especially while still looking very fit and performing very well...

I do remember Morale's face looking a bit swollen (especially the nose are area) after the first and second fight. Im guessing thats Floyd's weight for Wrestlemania may have been gained and lost honestly...I mean, for the record, he didn't fight at all in the calender year of 2008 and didn't fight until the 10th month of 2009, so those punds could've been gained and lost during that period of time. He had 3 months after the Hatton fight to gain that weight for WWE, thats if the weight wasn't fluctuated for the event. Do you actually believe he broke the Big Show's nose as well, since WWE numbers seem to mean so much? laugh.gif



QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 7 2011, 09:53 AM) *
But when did those fighters EVEN get hit so many times? Especially so clean and straight? NEVER @ least by someone who sat on his punches. Pacman's arsenal has improve greatly since those days. Peeps can say anything they want but Pacman made Morales quit like a fighter with no heart, the same Morales who took/pushed Maidana to the limit.

RE post the video but one thing that is a fact, his opponents team watches the hand wraps and so does the commission. lol

The only one of those opponents I remember being that busted up, is Cotto, and that was by Margarito. Any other time, he just got cut easliy. I also remember Morales's face being swollen in the first two fights, and as far as him quitting on the 3rd fight...I believe the weight was a factor in that fight. If Im not mistaken, I believe Morales's people wanted it to take place at 135, but Pac's team declined. I believe that was the request for the second fight as well, since Morales fought Raheem (at 135) after the first Pacquiao fight.

Morales had mad miles on him before the 3rd Pac fight, and his out of the ring weight gaining habits didn't help at all. Those two prior bouts with Pac, the trilogy with Barrera, and that loss to Raheem, just did something to Morales. I believe he was shot after the first Pac fight, I mean damn, Pac did put up a fight in the initial bout and that was only 3 or 4 months after the Barrera trilogy.

Im guessing that his recent opponents were taking those punches flush because of his speed, perhaps. I dont really remember any of those guys fighting someone that compact with that much speed. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on his power, because getting hit in the same spot repeatedly will cause swelling and so forth...especially of those punches are damn near lightning fast.
caneman
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 7 2011, 11:32 AM) *
Well, for comparisons' sake, let's compare Floyd and Manny's performances against De La Hoya.

Floyd Mayweather landed a total of 207 punches on De La Hoya and the fight went the distance.

Manny Pacquiao landed a total of 224 punches on De La Hoya and the fight was stopped in the 8th round.

Of course, in the second instance, De La Hoya was fighting at a ridiculous weight given his age and the point he was at in his career, which contributed to him fading and not being able to mount much of a defense as the fight wore on.

However, for them to land a similar number of punches and have such different outcomes ? Especially since the data shows that Manny and Floyd at Super Featherweight and below had pretty much the same overall stopping power ?

Listen, anything is possible. You get freaks of nature like Jim Thorpe, Bo Jackson, etc. every generation, but they're the exception and not the rule. Is Manny Pacquiao in that group, given that he has been able to carry his speed and power through so many weight classes ? Maybe.

Or maybe not.

Both sides have an argument, but the more I think about it, the more I find myself favoring the idea that there's something not right in this picture.


So Pac land 20 more punches in four rounds less yet it's about the same? Come on bro, it ain't even close and DLH called out Pacman and said he would drop to that weight so excuse me if I don't see it like you do and yes, both guys are in a Jim Thorpe kinda group even if they don't play multiple sports yet both are amazing! Look this whole thing kinda started with FMJ thinking he is the only guy who can go up in weight and be successful and no matter how well you type, I say FMJ would never have the stopping power that Pac does cause he doesn't fight that kinda style!

QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Nov 7 2011, 11:34 AM) *
The only one of those opponents I remember being that busted up, is Cotto, and that was by Margarito. Any other time, he just got cut easliy. I also remember Morales's face being swollen in the first two fights, and as far as him quitting on the 3rd fight...I believe the weight was a factor in that fight. If Im not mistaken, I believe Morales's people wanted it to take place at 135, but Pac's team declined. I believe that was the request for thhe second fight as well, since Morales fought Raheem (at 135) after the first Pacquiao fight.

Morales had mad miles on him before the 3rd Pac fight, and his out of the ring weight gaining habits didn't help at all. Those two prior bouts with Pac, the trilogy with Barrera, and that loss to Raheem, just did something to Morales. I believe he was shot after the first Pac fight, I mean damn, Pac did put up a fight in the initial bout and that was only 3 or 4 months after the Barrera trilogy.



Morales goes way too high in weight between fights and always looks like shit getting on the scale but the legend can fight!
Cshel86
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 7 2011, 10:50 AM) *
Morales goes way too high in weight between fights and always looks like shit getting on the scale but the legend can fight!




Agreed!
MaxPayne
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 7 2011, 10:50 AM) *
So Pac land 20 more punches in four rounds less yet it's about the same? Come on bro, it ain't even close and DLH called out Pacman and said he would drop to that weight so excuse me if I don't see it like you do and yes, both guys are in a Jim Thorpe kinda group even if they don't play multiple sports yet both are amazing! Look this whole thing kinda started with FMJ thinking he is the only guy who can go up in weight and be successful and no matter how well you type, I say FMJ would never have the stopping power that Pac does cause he doesn't fight that kinda style!




Morales goes way too high in weight between fights and always looks like shit getting on the scale but the legend can fight!


Mayweather went up in weight and has generally been unable to hurt his opponents at welterweight or light middleweight. Pacquiao has gone up in weight and has barely lost any power.

Pacquiao in his 51 fights prior to his lightweight debut was fighting mostly Filipino and Mexican fighters.

Mayweather's 27 bouts prior to his lightweight debut were against mostly American fighters who are generally known to be the slickest / most technically proficient fighters in the world, next to European or Japanese boxers. Ask anyone who has been around the sport and this is the feedback you will get.

Even with those factors, Mayweather had a slightly higher stoppage % in fights at Super Featherweight or below, as compared to Manny Pacquiao.

A 30 year old man puts on 12 pounds of muscle in 9 months and along the way, decimates men who are naturally bigger than him and have been fighting at those weights for years, and people want to act like it's not worth nothing. That's ridiculous.

We hear often about kids coming out of college having the frame to add "15 - 20 lbs. of muscle" in American Football or Basketball. That's because when these kids graduate as sophomores or juniors, they're in the age 19 to 22 range, where you're at the tail end of growth and have the physiological capability to quickly put on functional weight.

Not when you're 30 years old. The older you get, it takes years and years to put on muscle, because your capacity to weight train and alter your diet, and the effect it has on your body gets diminished. A lot of other boxers who have gone up in weight and have maintained significant power and speed advantages are known abusers of PEDs:

Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, James Toney and Fernando Vargas and the Klitchkos just to name a few.


caneman
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 7 2011, 12:05 PM) *
Mayweather went up in weight and has generally been unable to hurt his opponents at welterweight or light middleweight. Pacquiao has gone up in weight and has barely lost any power.

Pacquiao in his 51 fights prior to his lightweight debut was fighting mostly Filipino and Mexican fighters.

Mayweather's 27 bouts prior to his lightweight debut were against mostly American fighters who are generally known to be the slickest / most technically proficient fighters in the world, next to European or Japanese boxers. Ask anyone who has been around the sport and this is the feedback you will get.

Even with those factors, Mayweather had a slightly higher stoppage % in fights at Super Featherweight or below, as compared to Manny Pacquiao.

A 30 year old man puts on 12 pounds of muscle in 9 months and along the way, decimates men who are naturally bigger than him and have been fighting at those weights for years, and people want to act like it's not worth nothing. That's ridiculous.

We hear often about kids coming out of college having the frame to add "15 - 20 lbs. of muscle" in American Football or Basketball. That's because when these kids graduate as sophomores or juniors, they're in the age 19 to 22 range, where you're at the tail end of growth and have the physiological capability to quickly put on functional weight.

Not when you're 30 years old. The older you get, it takes years and years to put on muscle, because your capacity to weight train and alter your diet, and the effect it has on your body gets diminished. A lot of other boxers who have gone up in weight and have maintained significant power and speed advantages are known abusers of PEDs:

Evander Holyfield, Shane Mosley, James Toney and Fernando Vargas and the Klitchkos just to name a few.


OK whatever you say Max!
Cshel86
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Nov 7 2011, 12:05 PM) *
Mayweather's 27 bouts prior to his lightweight debut were against mostly American fighters who are generally known to be the slickest / most technically proficient fighters in the world


I have to somewhat disagree with this part of your post...FMJ fought more than a few Hispanic fighters in his early days...especially at 130.
caneman
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Nov 7 2011, 12:25 PM) *
I have to somewhat disagree with this part of your post...FMJ fought more than a few Hispanic fighters in his early days...especially at 130.



He also fought a lot of no bodies @ 130. I am not saying he isn't a great boxer though but I will add that FMJ say mass now too and my point is it's styles on some levels. He stopped 2 fighters that he stood in the pocket with in Ortiz and Hatton. I just don't see all this one punch power Pac, I see a fighter that has upped his game and landed more punches.
HazConvictedFelonMane
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 7 2011, 09:53 AM) *
But when did those fighters EVEN get hit so many times? Especially so clean and straight? NEVER @ least by someone who sat on his punches. Pacman's arsenal has improve greatly since those days. Peeps can say anything they want but Pacman made Morales quit like a fighter with no heart, the same Morales who took/pushed Maidana to the limit.

RE post the video but one thing that is a fact, his opponents team watches the hand wraps and so does the commission. lol


Here you go Cane.


caneman
QUOTE (HazConvictedFelonMane @ Nov 7 2011, 01:34 PM) *
Here you go Cane.



My bad, I don't see proof in that video rolleyes_anim.gif Both camps were watching and so was the commission bro!
caneman
QUOTE (HazConvictedFelonMane @ Nov 7 2011, 01:34 PM) *
Here you go Cane.



Here you gp Has, granted there was no commission and not another team watching but they look the same too me!
caneman
I like this wrap here for protection...the main thing is the only tape on the finger side of the knuckle is between the fingers.
But tell me something on your video, what was illegal about those wraps?

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.