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Cshel86
Off top, Im sure this thread will go in several different directions, but Im prepared for that. The initial question was, "Between FMJ and De La Hoya, who had to work the hardest to become a star"? Now my question is, does Floyd have the right to "somewhat" have a chip on his shoulder about the hard work that he had to put in to become a megastar?

I mean damn, he and Oscar had the same promoter for a while, but Oscar's career went into overdrive in no time, but Floyd seemed to have to work much harder. Of course Oscar turned pro before Floyd, so that may have a bit to do with it.

Since I brought up Floyd possibly having a chip on shoulder, do you think this is the reason that he makes his potential opponents kiss the canvas (purse split, location, etc) before the first bell rings? Truthfully, I would do the same, if my road was as difficult as Floyd's, though he made decent money fighting the guys that he did fight.

I mean really, Oscar was fed legends like, Whitaker, Chavez Sr. (TWICE), Camacho, Leija (somewhat), Hernandez (somewhat)....while Floyd had to make the best of what was put in front him. Oscar had the better resume after the fights with the legends, hands down, so no need to argue that. Is there a reason why? (help me out here)

What's your take on this? I'm open to facts and different points of views as well, trust me, I am.
mgrover
seems like his timing came at a bad time, funny how it was de la hoya that was the star attraction for the mayweather de la hoya fight, after that fight mayweather was bagging easy ppv numbers.
BoxingStill#1
Wow... I just wrote a half page of intelligent response and my phone locked.. go figure.. ima write it again..
BoxingEinstein

Floyd had to work harder than Oscar to get to where he's at now. Oscar was fed HOF's who were on their way out except for Hernandez. Obviously Oscar's draw to the sport at the time helped and jump started Floyd's ppv draw in today's time. Floyd fought more HOF's in their primes and during their best outings than Oscar did so no doubt that PBF had the harder road. When he was coming up and knocking out everyone still no one really paid attention to him and that was considered his most exciting times as an athlete/boxer. It took him to change his bravado and fighting name fighters to get people to start paying attention to him.
mrwigi
I also believe timing played a big factor. Oscar started in the early 90's when boxing was still a really big draw. Floyd did turn pro until 96 i believe and didnt really step up in competition until around 99 or 2000.. By that time, Oscar had already fought hernandez, chavez twice, whitaker, camacho, cortey, felix and shane. The saying goes, as the heavyweights go, so goes boxing. In 96, Tyson fought holyfield, just to give you an idea of what boxing was like then. Not only that, but Oscar was probably the last boxer to be watched coming out of the olympics, before the boxing rules started changing. it would have been intresting to see what it would have been like had Floyd and Oscar started at the exact same time.
streetlion1
Oscar worked harder...

DLH not only brings along with him the most Mexico...whick in my opinion are the most loyal fans...he also has the legends on his resume...but he also had the more crowd pleasing style and he basically fought all comers. Once he was on top he kept himself on top by fighting a very good and later to be found out roided up prime Shane Mosley twice...very dangerous Quartey and Vargas...Felix Trinidad.

Floyd didnt have the wars...a way weaker resume...to me Floyd had by far the easiest road he has great skills and fans that love him...but people also LOVE to hate this guy...and the only thing that can sell the same as a good hero is a good villain.
dhoward126
QUOTE (streetlion1 @ Dec 22 2011, 03:20 PM) *
Oscar worked harder...

DLH not only brings along with him the most Mexico...whick in my opinion are the most loyal fans...he also has the legends on his resume...but he also had the more crowd pleasing style and he basically fought all comers. Once he was on top he kept himself on top by fighting a very good and later to be found out roided up prime Shane Mosley twice...very dangerous Quartey and Vargas...Felix Trinidad.

Floyd didnt have the wars...a way weaker resume...to me Floyd had by far the easiest road he has great skills and fans that love him...but people also LOVE to hate this guy...and the only thing that can sell the same as a good hero is a good villain.


I agree with the fact that Oscar worked harder, he had to fight big name guys like Camacho, Whittaker, Chavez, Leija and the rest and he only really got the super-star power post-Trinidad. How can you say Floyd has a "way weaker" resume when he has victories over prime and undefeated versions of Diego Corrales, JL Castillo and Ricky Hatton, some of the best fighters in their respective divisions throughout the decade?

Oscar benefitted from fighting a lot of the guys when they were beginning the downside of their careers, like Chavez (though I believe Oscar would've beaten him anyway) and Whittaker. I'm a big DLH fan and I do think he has a better resume than Floyd, but Floyd's era isn't exactly littered with HOF caliber talent like Oscar's was and we can't deride him for that.
kingknockout
shel you was right when you said this thread could go in several directions...

alot of people are talking about the Pros

but when you say work harder? hell, this could go all the way back to both of their childhoods.....you include that then I don't know what to tell you.
Cshel86
QUOTE (dhoward126 @ Dec 22 2011, 04:39 PM) *
I agree with the fact that Oscar worked harder, he had to fight big name guys like Camacho, Whittaker, Chavez, Leija and the rest and he only really got the super-star power post-Trinidad. How can you say Floyd has a "way weaker" resume when he has victories over prime and undefeated versions of Diego Corrales, JL Castillo and Ricky Hatton, some of the best fighters in their respective divisions throughout the decade?

Oscar benefitted from fighting a lot of the guys when they were beginning the downside of their careers, like Chavez (though I believe Oscar would've beaten him anyway) and Whittaker. I'm a big DLH fan and I do think he has a better resume than Floyd, but Floyd's era isn't exactly littered with HOF caliber talent like Oscar's was and we can't deride him for that.

+1

Oscar was fed legends that were on their way out of the game, and that makes an up and coming fighter well known by fighting these type of fighters. This is something that most of these up and coming fighters aren't doing, which somewhat hurts their career.

Im wondering why Arum didn't try to stick Floyd in their with the type of guys that he fed Oscar...but of course, that may something to do with timing as well. Floyd had great competition, given the situation, and if I remember correctly, he had trouble booking fights because of the money that he was asking for. I also dont agree that Floyd had the weaker resume.
streetlion1
QUOTE (dhoward126 @ Dec 22 2011, 03:39 PM) *
I agree with the fact that Oscar worked harder, he had to fight big name guys like Camacho, Whittaker, Chavez, Leija and the rest and he only really got the super-star power post-Trinidad. How can you say Floyd has a "way weaker" resume when he has victories over prime and undefeated versions of Diego Corrales, JL Castillo and Ricky Hatton, some of the best fighters in their respective divisions throughout the decade?

Oscar benefitted from fighting a lot of the guys when they were beginning the downside of their careers, like Chavez (though I believe Oscar would've beaten him anyway) and Whittaker. I'm a big DLH fan and I do think he has a better resume than Floyd, but Floyd's era isn't exactly littered with HOF caliber talent like Oscar's was and we can't deride him for that.

My thing with Floyd has been his opponent selection since hitting welterweight...Oscar was arguably the last great fighter to do what it seems none of these other guys...(outside of maybe Andre Ward)...will do...he fought the best in his division and he fought all comers. Floyd hasnt done that at Welter and welter has been the most talented weight class in boxing.
Plah
Floyd
Cshel86
This guy's resume isn't close to Oscar's, but he somewhat amplified his victories and his selection of opponents. He pretty much educated everyone on his skill level and the state of all of his opponents (future HOFs, coming off of big victories, undefeated, decent records, etc).

Nobody in recent years has a resume like Oscar's, hands down. I still agree that Floyd had the harder road, and measuring his success today, he damn sure did some kind of hard work to get there.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 21 2011, 10:58 PM) *
Off top, Im sure this thread will go in several different directions, but Im prepared for that. The initial question was, "Between FMJ and De La Hoya, who had to work the hardest to become a star"? Now my question is, does Floyd have the right to "somewhat" have a chip on his shoulder about the hard work that he had to put in to become a megastar?

I mean damn, he and Oscar had the same promoter for a while, but Oscar's career went into overdrive in no time, but Floyd seemed to have to work much harder. Of course Oscar turned pro before Floyd, so that may have a bit to do with it.

Since I brought up Floyd possibly having a chip on shoulder, do you think this is the reason that he makes his potential opponents kiss the canvas (purse split, location, etc) before the first bell rings? Truthfully, I would do the same, if my road was as difficult as Floyd's, though he made decent money fighting the guys that he did fight.

I mean really, Oscar was fed legends like, Whitaker, Chavez Sr. (TWICE), Camacho, Leija (somewhat), Hernandez (somewhat)....while Floyd had to make the best of what was put in front him. Oscar had the better resume after the fights with the legends, hands down, so no need to argue that. Is there a reason why? (help me out here)

What's your take on this? I'm open to facts and different points of views as well, trust me, I am.


the gold medal...oscar being a pretty boy....and being a mexican from east los angeles all made the road a lot easier for him than floyd. arum seems to have an easier time promoting mexicans and filipinos and typically shelves black fighters. the times also had something to do with oscars quicker/easier rise....he came at a time when more than a few legends were at the end of their careers. the same formula was used for both fighters though...arum has great matchmakers who are very good at picking opposition that helps build a fighters record and helps them learn in the process. these guys both have/had amazing talent and that is also a huge part...but make no mistake about it....them making it to the top did not happen by accident. there was a lot of careful planning that went into both stars.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 24 2011, 01:09 PM) *
This guy's resume isn't close to Oscar's, but he somewhat amplified his victories and his selection of opponents. He pretty much educated everyone on his skill level and the state of all of his opponents (future HOFs, coming off of big victories, undefeated, decent records, etc).

Nobody in recent years has a resume like Oscar's, hands down. I still agree that Floyd had the harder road, and measuring his success today, he damn sure did some kind of hard work to get there.



a close look at oscars resume will reveal a lot of truths....his biggest wins came against guys who were past their primes or were fighting out of their weightclass. when everything was equal, he struggled or lost. his wins against molina, quartey, whitaker and sturm were all questionable. i did a side by side comparison with him and trinidad on another forum and trinidad had more wins over undefeated opposition who oscar beat afterwards. floyd has defeated many of the same opponents that cotto, hatton and pac all get big credit for beating.
streetlion1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 28 2011, 02:02 PM) *
a close look at oscars resume will reveal a lot of truths....his biggest wins came against guys who were past their primes or were fighting out of their weightclass. when everything was equal, he struggled or lost. his wins against molina, quartey, whitaker and sturm were all questionable. i did a side by side comparison with him and trinidad on another forum and trinidad had more wins over undefeated opposition who oscar beat afterwards. floyd has defeated many of the same opponents that cotto, hatton and pac all get big credit for beating.

Regardless how much you try to minimize Oscars resume Floyd still doesnt measure up. Oscar fought every and anybody....ducked no one. The only 2 names people try to say he ducked were Winky and Forrest (RIP)...he fought much tougher opposition in his career. When Floyd could have fought Margarito he was fighting guys like Baldomir...when he could have fought an undefeated Cotto he fought Hatton and pulled out his retirement card. The toughest win in his career was vs DLH at 154 when Oscar still had skills....besides vs Castillo 1 where I believe Castillo beat him. My point is...at Welter Floyd hasnt done what other "great" fighters have done and thats fight all the top guys in their division.
daprofessor
QUOTE (streetlion1 @ Dec 29 2011, 12:15 AM) *
Regardless how much you try to minimize Oscars resume Floyd still doesnt measure up. Oscar fought every and anybody....ducked no one. The only 2 names people try to say he ducked were Winky and Forrest (RIP)...he fought much tougher opposition in his career. When Floyd could have fought Margarito he was fighting guys like Baldomir...when he could have fought an undefeated Cotto he fought Hatton and pulled out his retirement card. The toughest win in his career was vs DLH at 154 when Oscar still had skills....besides vs Castillo 1 where I believe Castillo beat him. My point is...at Welter Floyd hasnt done what other "great" fighters have done and thats fight all the top guys in their division.


i'm not trying to minimize fact. it is what it is....

chavez was past his best.

whitaker beat him imo.

he fought the lessor of the ruelas brothers...gabriel ruelas was the threat...not rafael

a lot of ppl thought quartey beat him...

his best wins came against trinidads leftovers. it's not impressive to knock someone out who was recently ko'd.

he waited for trinidad to move up in weight before he fought him.

he was given a gift in the sturm fight.

in his biggest fights he came up short. trinidad, mosley twice, bhop and pac.

on the flip side....mayweather blazed a trail and was fighter of the year in 98....and again in 08. how many fighters have done that?

i'll agree the first castillo fight could have gone either way....but he cleared any doubt in the immediate rematch.

let's not act like his wins over jesus chavez, genaro hernandez, angel manfreddy, diego corrales, famoso hernandez, corley, hatton, gatti, judah were not good wins.

floyd is held to a higher standard...i get it. castillo/corrales and gatti/ward are all hall of fame bound because of their great matches....and floyd made them(except for ward) look like less than ordinary fighters...and he doesn't get credit? floyd not fighting margarito or cotto didn't happen for one reason....arum. do u honestly believe either fighter had a chance against him? i didn't.


mgrover
i give it to Floyd, since even though his KO percentage was never that high he still dominated fight after fight, but before welterweight he was just a beast in his own right. harder road? i don't know, since he grew up in a boxing family he was surrounded by boxing and had some of the best coaching someone could receive at that age, he was probably watching boxing before he could walk, am not sure about de la hoyas background. also there's his dad going to jail to take into account and what not and i still don't know de la hoyas background. it was the timing issue since most veterans were out the game by then, the real legends who did he have left to prove himself against? the new breed of fighters seem mostly all brawn and no brain apart from a few.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 28 2011, 02:57 PM) *
the gold medal...oscar being a pretty boy....and being a mexican from east los angeles all made the road a lot easier for him than floyd. arum seems to have an easier time promoting mexicans and filipinos and typically shelves black fighters. the times also had something to do with oscars quicker/easier rise....he came at a time when more than a few legends were at the end of their careers. the same formula was used for both fighters though...arum has great matchmakers who are very good at picking opposition that helps build a fighters record and helps them learn in the process. these guys both have/had amazing talent and that is also a huge part...but make no mistake about it....them making it to the top did not happen by accident. there was a lot of careful planning that went into both stars.

+1

Oscar's timing and promotional team, made it possible for him to kick down the doors of stardom. I dont think Floyd was supposed to be the star that he is today, especially if he stayed with Arum. Im sure that the "Money Mayweather" image was far from Arum's mind while building FMJ up. You must agree, that its much easier to build Hispanic fighters, than it is to build African American fighters. Im sure that the reason Floyd didn't get the fights that he wanted back then, was because of money.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 28 2011, 03:02 PM) *
a close look at oscars resume will reveal a lot of truths....his biggest wins came against guys who were past their primes or were fighting out of their weightclass. when everything was equal, he struggled or lost.

Yep! Oscar got more of the big fights because he was physically bigger than Floyd anyhow. There weren't as many big fights at Floyd's weight, than there were at WW and JMW, at that time. Though Oscar lost most of the big fights, the fact that those names are on his resume, seems to count for something.


QUOTE (streetlion1 @ Dec 29 2011, 12:15 AM) *
When Floyd could have fought Margarito he was fighting guys like Baldomir...when he could have fought an undefeated Cotto he fought Hatton and pulled out his retirement card. The toughest win in his career was vs DLH at 154 when Oscar still had skills....besides vs Castillo 1 where I believe Castillo beat him. My point is...at Welter Floyd hasnt done what other "great" fighters have done and thats fight all the top guys in their division.

To certain extent, I agree with you. There's no need to even compare WW careers between the two, because there's no comparison (as you mentioned). Margarito wouldn't have been a good fight for Floyd, regardless. Losing to a great fighter, can do either two things...upgrade you, or totally screw your career. Had Margarito fought FMJ and lost, then Margarito wouldn't have been worth shit to this day (as if he was even worth it in the first place). The world still didn't know who he was, so losing to Floyd (possibly), would've set him further back...so beating Cotto was his claim to fame, no matter how tainted the victory was.

The Baldomir fight was Floyd's best move at that point in time, though the fight was dull. It officially put Floyd in the WW talks after winning the lineal title. I disagree with you saying that Oscar was Floyd's toughest fight, if anything, it was his richest bout (at the time). Castillo still holds that torch, and we can even throw Emmanuel Augustus in there as well.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 29 2011, 12:11 PM) *
+1

Oscar's timing and promotional team, made it possible for him to kick down the doors of stardom. I dont think Floyd was supposed to be the star that he is today, especially if he stayed with Arum. Im sure that the "Money Mayweather" image was far from Arum's mind while building FMJ up. You must agree, that its much easier to build Hispanic fighters, than it is to build African American fighters. Im sure that the reason Floyd didn't get the fights that he wanted back then, was because of money.


Yep! Oscar got more of the big fights because he was physically bigger than Floyd anyhow. There weren't as many big fights at Floyd's weight, than there were at WW and JMW, at that time. Though Oscar lost most of the big fights, the fact that those names are on his resume, seems to count for something.

To certain extent, I agree with you. There's no need to even compare WW careers between the two, because there's no comparison (as you mentioned). Margarito wouldn't have been a good fight for Floyd, regardless. Losing to a great fighter, can do either two things...upgrade you, or totally screw your career. Had Margarito fought FMJ and lost, then Margarito wouldn't have been worth shit to this day (as if he was even worth it in the first place). The world still didn't know who he was, so losing to Floyd (possibly), would've set him further back...so beating Cotto was his claim to fame, no matter how tainted the victory was.

The Baldomir fight was Floyd's best move at that point in time, though the fight was dull. It officially put Floyd in the WW talks after winning the lineal title. I disagree with you saying that Oscar was Floyd's toughest fight, if anything, it was his richest bout (at the time). Castillo still holds that torch, and we can even throw Emmanuel Augustus in there as well.


i agree. u can't take that away from him.

i also agree that baldomir was his best move at the time. ppl can't discount the whole toprank thing either. he just got out of that contract...and accepting a fight with margarito or cotto would have put him back under contract with arum. also...there was talk of a cotto fight prior...but that all died when cotto was shook in a few fights....corley and torres. i also thought floyd took it easy on oscar in hopes of getting a rematch for big money. it was the talk immediately after the fight. castillo is by far his toughest opponent. augustus was tough for a few rounds...but didn't floyd stop him?
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