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Cshel86
From what I've noticed and understood, Hamed and Marquez never fought, but I was wondering as to who would've had the advantage. You have Marquez, who's got to be the best Mexican counter puncher, with good timing, and solid boxing skills.

Hamed on the other hand, had other-worldly movement (which looked sloppy at times) and was able to land from the weirdest angles. He was also able to make mistakes in the ring and not have to pay for them (most of the time), simply because he was quicker than most of his opponents.

Who takes it?
mrwigi
Did you see what MAB did to the prince? Marquez would box circles around Hamed
mitukczuk
Boxing pointless clowning without knowledge of the basics < Boxing IQ ! Marquez all day. Just because it is Marquez.
Cshel86
Good stuff. I remember the Barrera fight, and as it showed, Barrera wasn't the most technically sound boxer out there...though he tried to get his shit together after those Junior Jones losses.

I'm wondering how much of a fight it would've been before the Barrera fight, because if I remember correctly, that was Hamed's last fight. That may have been one of his last fights, help me out.
tgv
Hamed would of beat Marquez, Barrera and Morales if they would of fought around 1996-1998 when hamed was fast young and powerful in his prime, he wanted to fight in Barrera in the late 90's but Barrera passed on the fight Barrera beat him when his desire was no more just check out the documentary lil prince big fight he didnt train well and looked like he was taking boxing seriousley anymore
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (tgv @ Jan 24 2012, 11:32 AM) *
Hamed would of beat Marquez, Barrera and Morales if they would of fought around 1996-1998 when hamed was fast young and powerful in his prime, he wanted to fight in Barrera in the late 90's but Barrera passed on the fight Barrera beat him when his desire was no more just check out the documentary lil prince big fight he didnt train well and looked like he was taking boxing seriousley anymore



I call BS on that. Hamed was IN his prime when Barrera beat him. Hamed had never lost, was 27 years old and never involved in a brutal, career-shortening fight. Mentally he was tough as ever and had never shown any signs of losing that cocky attitude that attracted so many to watch his fights. What in your opinion suggests he WASN'T in his prime when he faced Barrera?

Marquez would have easily done to Hamed what Barrera did, possibly more clearly if that's at all possible. IMO any of the "big three" from that era (Barrera, Marquez, Morales) all beat Hamed via 12 round decision. I don't see Hamed getting stopped by any of them, but they all take him on the cards because their boxing ability is superior and they all had great chins. Morales would have given us the most excitement in the ring with him (and the closest score cards) simply because when he gets hit his ability to maintain his composure went out the window and he went into brawl mode. The rounds would look pretty one sided for Morales, but when he took a big Hamed shot he'd brawl and the brawls would be fought on relatively even terms. Morales though in his prime (pre-Barrera I) was extremely resilient so regardless of Hamed hitting like a mule and rocking Morales he would be recovered 100% in seconds and back at work.

Anyway Marquez, like Barrera was extremely technical and well too schooled for someone as raw as Hamed.
tgv
Good reply but we all have opinions, I just think in the late 90s his speed and agility and power were more potent then in 2001 when he fought barrera and another thing he had no heart when he fought barrera and supposibly no hands, thats why he so called retired he had trouble with his hands and couldnt punch with the same force as he usually did, one thing for sure there hasnt been another boxer/entertainer like the prince, like it or not he was good and would of beat barrera around the time barrera lost to jr. jones with out a dought thats when he wanted to fight him and barrera didnt want to.
Cshel86
Yeah Hamed was still in his prime around the time of the Barrera fight, his ass and pride was just hurt after the loss. That documentary of the fight pretty much told it all, as they showed the before and after portions of it. He had some stuff going on outside of the ring as well, but he was still in his prime.

The part that got me is the fact that he wanted to fight Barrera after/during the Jones losses, but Barrera was nowhere near ready to face a boxer (or something remotely close to that). I believe Barrera hooked up with Rudy Perez after the Jones losses or maybe after the first loss.
mgrover
just because he was young doesn't mean he was in his prime, his prime was around the time he was fighting kevin kelly and wilfredo. thats when he wanted morales and barerra, but neither would want him. you can say what you like about him, but they were ducking him. by the time the barerra fight came along he wasn't the same fighter from the 90s.
Cshel86
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jan 24 2012, 01:55 PM) *
just because he was young doesn't mean he was in his prime, his prime was around the time he was fighting kevin kelly and wilfredo. thats when he wanted morales and barerra, but neither would want him. you can say what you like about him, but they were ducking him. by the time the barerra fight came along he wasn't the same fighter from the 90s.

I mean dang, the Barrera fight WAS in 2001, and it wasn't too far from that nice performance he had against Augie Sanchez. Anyway, I can understand your point about him being young having nothing to do with being in his prime. Well, I can agree to a certain degree.

Hell, Vargas was young as hell, but peaked out early, maybe that had something to do with the Trinidad loss. He started falling off around his mid 20's, but that's all I can use to agree with your point about being young having nothing to do with being prime, I guess.
mgrover
he just wasn't dedicated to the sport after a while, he was getting lazier and lazier, its one of the reasons he looks like he does now. it was his power that carried him at the later stages in his career, i mean who was augie sanchez? only reason i remember him was because he beat mayweather in the amateurs, which lead to him getting beat twice by mayweather. to the end of his career he wasn't the same fighter, and definitely a lot slower and taking more hits than he did when he won the title.

also am not sure who i'd give it to, i mean both fighters liked to counter punch, hamed came in from some crazy angles, and definitley had the power to floor marquez, but marquez's never said die attitude and the fact that he is one of the best counter punchers to come out of mexico. i mean i know people say pacman throws some crazy punches, but the prince was on another level, a lot higher than pacman, and a bit beneath RJJ.

i'd give it to marquez.
Thickback
JMM easily whoops Hamed's ass.
daprofessor
QUOTE (mrwigi @ Jan 24 2012, 11:12 AM) *
Did you see what MAB did to the prince? Marquez would box circles around Hamed


+1

there was a reason he chose barrera over marquez....and there was a reason barrera and morales acted as if jmm didn't exist.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jan 24 2012, 12:11 PM) *
Good stuff. I remember the Barrera fight, and as it showed, Barrera wasn't the most technically sound boxer out there...though he tried to get his shit together after those Junior Jones losses.

I'm wondering how much of a fight it would've been before the Barrera fight, because if I remember correctly, that was Hamed's last fight. That may have been one of his last fights, help me out.


hamed had one fight against a spaniard and looked less than spectacular before he disappeared. he got away from all that worked for him and wasn't training. there was a documentary that covered it all before the barrera fight. i was a fan after the kevin kelly fight. hamed was fun to watch.
checkleft
Yea marquez would take it. He's too smart, and has way better timing.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jan 24 2012, 01:55 PM) *
just because he was young doesn't mean he was in his prime, his prime was around the time he was fighting kevin kelly and wilfredo. thats when he wanted morales and barerra, but neither would want him. you can say what you like about him, but they were ducking him. by the time the barerra fight came along he wasn't the same fighter from the 90s.


No young doesn't necessarily mean prime, but it's a major supporting detail. Those that exit their primes at very young ages do so because of some sort of catalyst:

Vargas took a career changing beating at the hands of Trinidad. He never reacted to punches the same again after that fight.

David Reid had serious problems with his eye, forcing him to down shift and fast forward his career.

Tyson had major changes happen with the people surrounding him, lost Cus, etc - mentally this changed him greatly.

What can you point to at Hamed's young age that would have made him exit his prime by the time he fought Barrera? I do not see any supporting details to that. There is no evidence to support that he wasn't in prime form when he faced Barrera.

Hamed opened as a 5-1 favorite to beat Barrera, and it only slightly narrowed to 4-1 I believe by the time the fight came off. Point being, he was HEAVILY favored to destroy Barrera, just as he had all of his opponents prior.

Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 24 2012, 06:37 PM) *
hamed had one fight against a spaniard and looked less than spectacular before he disappeared. he got away from all that worked for him and wasn't training. there was a documentary that covered it all before the barrera fight. i was a fan after the kevin kelly fight. hamed was fun to watch.

laugh.gif

Absolutely right! Barrera and Morales chose to go life and death with each other rather than look JMM's way. I saw that documentary about a year ago, good stuff. you can tell he was crushed after the Barrera fight, but he did a pretty good job of covering it up (for the most part).

QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 24 2012, 07:16 PM) *
Yea marquez would take it. He's too smart, and has way better timing.

+1
tgv
Number 1 reason he lost was loss of reflexes and his style was changed by Manny Stewart and juarez
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (tgv @ Jan 24 2012, 08:43 PM) *
Number 1 reason he lost was loss of reflexes and his style was changed by Manny Stewart and juarez


Loss of reflexes? How do you figure? The guy was 27 years old, undefeated and had never taken a beating in the ring. His reflexes were fine.

Hamed changed his trainer after he beat McCullough which happened several years and 4-5 fights prior to facing Barrera. It wasn't like it was some drastic change right before he faced him or something. And trainer has nothing to do with it; Hamed was one of those naturally gifted guys similar to Roy Jones in a way where you could probably put a bum off the street in their corner and they're going to do what they do naturally anyway. Hamed would have lost to Barrera at any point, regardless of his trainer simply because Barrera had the tools to fight a textbook boxing match against a guy far too raw to be competitive with that level of skill.
checkleft
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Jan 24 2012, 11:24 PM) *
Loss of reflexes? How do you figure? The guy was 27 years old, undefeated and had never taken a beating in the ring. His reflexes were fine.

Hamed changed his trainer after he beat McCullough which happened several years and 4-5 fights prior to facing Barrera. It wasn't like it was some drastic change right before he faced him or something. And trainer has nothing to do with it; Hamed was one of those naturally gifted guys similar to Roy Jones in a way where you could probably put a bum off the street in their corner and they're going to do what they do naturally anyway. Hamed would have lost to Barrera at any point, regardless of his trainer simply because Barrera had the tools to fight a textbook boxing match against a guy far too raw to be competitive with that level of skill.

^^ I like this
tgv
Check out his fights with Tom Johnson, Kevin Kelley and several others theres no way barrera would of beat him the way he did if they fought in 97 no matter if barrera was more text book then he was, he was faster and more unpredictable for some reason he lost it after the Augie Sanchez fight if it wasnt for his power he might of gotten beat by Sanchez, his style and movements wernt there against barrera neither was his killer instinct yeah barrera gave him a boxing clinic that night but would of got a beat down like pacman gave him in there first fight just my opinion, thanks for your comebacks brutal bloody shots maybe i was just to much of a prince naseem fan and still cant believe to this day that MAB gave him a whooping im mexican but was rutting for Naz that night.... change of subject Victor Ortiz over Andre Berto II i think i might be right on this one.
Cshel86
Barrera didn't get his shit together until AFTER he got greased by Junior Jones twice. Hell, now that I think about it, Barrera fought Morales once and had a few more fights before he fought Hamed. With that said, Im sure Barrera was about as technically prepared as could've been for the Hamed fight.

Point is, this is how the fight was viewed...Hamed was SUPPOSED to win that fight, and Barrera just wasn't supposed to get beat as bad as he did by Jones. Ending result...Hamed got beat (as nobody imagined), Barrera was a whole new fighter after that victory.
BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (tgv @ Jan 25 2012, 09:19 AM) *
Check out his fights with Tom Johnson, Kevin Kelley and several others theres no way barrera would of beat him the way he did if they fought in 97 no matter if barrera was more text book then he was, he was faster and more unpredictable for some reason he lost it after the Augie Sanchez fight if it wasnt for his power he might of gotten beat by Sanchez, his style and movements wernt there against barrera neither was his killer instinct yeah barrera gave him a boxing clinic that night but would of got a beat down like pacman gave him in there first fight just my opinion, thanks for your comebacks brutal bloody shots maybe i was just to much of a prince naseem fan and still cant believe to this day that MAB gave him a whooping im mexican but was rutting for Naz that night.... change of subject Victor Ortiz over Andre Berto II i think i might be right on this one.


They couldn't have fought in '97 because Barrera was fighting at 122 then. Shit, Barrera was still at 122 THREE YEARS later when he faced Morales the first time at 122. So Barrera would never have faced Hamed in '97... or '98... or '99... or '00. He did however face Hamed in his FIRST FIGHT at featherweight (many thought he wouldn't be able to handle Hamed's power at 126 as evidenced by the 5-1 pro-Hamed odds) a weight Hamed had been comfortable at for 5 years.

Hamed didn't lose anything after the Augie Sanchez fight. Based on what? The one shot in that fight that put Hamed on his ass? Do you recall the finish of that fight? Where hamed threw a beautiful combination, all with perfect accuracy and deadly power that left Sanchez on the canvas for 5 minutes? Certainly didn't look like a "past prime" Hamed to me.

His "movements" and "killer instinct" as you put it weren't there against Barrera you say... ever think perhaps that had something to do with the opponent in the ring with him rather than just Hamed? Barrera beat Hamed to the punch every time he threw and had Hamed looking like a bobble head in there. Naturally that makes a fighter more reluctant to throw and more tentative in the ring. Same way fighters get off 70 or 80 punches a round, then they fight someone like Hopkins or Mayweather and suddenly only get off 30 or 40 a round. The reason their output is cut in half and they don't look like themselves in the ring has everything to do with the opponent (Hopkins, Mayweather, Barrera in this example) and absolutely nothing to do with them.

I do agree with your last statement though. By your own admission you were a huge Naseem fan, and it would seem that because of your bitterness due to his loss at the hands of Barrera you are holding a grudge a decade later... Which is fine, but call a spade a spade and act accordingly.

daprofessor
QUOTE (tgv @ Jan 24 2012, 08:43 PM) *
Number 1 reason he lost was loss of reflexes and his style was changed by Manny Stewart and juarez


suarez. may he r.i.p. sad.gif
Plah
JMM by UD
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