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Jack 1000
I always hear when their are really bad decisions in boxing, from either refs or judges, they are usually broken down into one of three categories:

Incompetence

Favoritism

Corruption

Here is my take on each issue:

Incompetence: It happens with officials who do not have the experience to judge or ref fights. However, I believe that if most fights could be attributed to incompetence, you would have almost a 50/50 split with "stupid" votes going to journeymen fighters and the other half of the time, marquee fighters not getting the nod. If incompetence was the issue, we would be seeing more fighters with weaker records getting the benefit of the doubt from officials.

Favoritism: In my view, the biggest problem in boxing. Judges often lean for the hometown fighter, the undefeated fighter with the big name, or the boxer with a flamboyant and powerful prompter and too often fear the consequences when they don't. Ref Octavio Meyran defended his officiating in the Douglas-Tyson fight over the controversial "long" count incident. Don King, Jose Sulaiman of the WBC, wanted Douglas stripped because they could not stand the idea of a 42-1 long shoot winning over the at the time best P4P fighter in the world. When Octavio Mayran was NEVER assigned to another high profile fight something just did not seem right with that decision. The scoring of the two Japanese judges carding a draw, and having Tyson a point ahead and the negative attitude the powers that be took toward Buster for those 36 hours or so before everyone agreed he was champion, show political bias that can not be forgotten.

Corruption: It's been in boxing since the beginning of time. Do you think it is just as rampant as it was in the 50's-60's when the mob controlled boxing? What specific instances of proven corruption have you seen in boxing that go beyond incompetence or Favoritism? You can go back to Jake Lamotta's sworn testimony for his fight against Billy Fox, where he told a Senate sub-committee that he had thrown the fight and had to, to get a shot at Marcel Cerdan. Does boxing have a new kind of mob with the alphabet federations, Arum and King, non-respected weight classes?

How do you prove corruption in boxing to get a conviction in a court of law?

Jack
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Feb 20 2012, 07:01 AM) *
Favoritism: In my view, the biggest problem in boxing. Judges often lean for the hometown fighter, the undefeated fighter with the big name, or the boxer with a flamboyant and powerful prompter and too often fear the consequences when they don't. Ref Octavio Meyran defended his officiating in the Douglas-Tyson fight over the controversial "long" count incident. Don King, Jose Sulaiman of the WBC, wanted Douglas stripped because they could not stand the idea of a 42-1 long shoot winning over the at the time best P4P fighter in the world. When Octavio Mayran was NEVER assigned to another high profile fight something just did not seem right with that decision. The scoring of the two Japanese judges carding a draw, and having Tyson a point ahead and the negative attitude the powers that be took toward Buster for those 36 hours or so before everyone agreed he was champion, show political bias that can not be forgotten.


I think this is the biggest issue in boxing. In fact, I think it blends in w/ corruption quite nicely...like a dastardly cocktail ( a la gin & tonic, vodka & cranberry, etc.). So often, the fighter w/ the big name and/or more importantly, big backing (read: promotion co., network fighter, champion) walks into the ring up 2-3 rounds. In fact, we the public, buy into....you know, that BS saying, "in order to beat the champ, you have to BEAT the champ" or "didn't do enough to take the belt". These are two of the most bullshit common, inferred beliefs in boxing. It's as though the challenger has to win each round by a wider margin than the champion. BULLSHIT. IMO, the champion's standard of expectation is a little higher than the challengers. I mean, the champ must DEFEND the belt just as much as the challenger has to "take it". Look no further than Cloud vs. Campillo, Williams vs. Lara, Holyfield vs. Lewis I, DLH vs. Sturm/Whitaker/Quartey for examples. This, IMO, is one of the areas in which MMA is beating boxing (now before you card carrying members of the "Boxing is the shit and MMA sucks" club, this isn't a supremacy battle of who's better. I'm a boxing guy, far and away, more than MMA, but I enjoy that sport and recognize boxing's many shortcomings).
Cshel86
Good post Noles!

I also stopped right at favoritism, everything else follows. That's how the process goes, the promoter does his best with the fighter's career by gassing up...all the way to a title shot. When he wins the title, the promotional process has just begun. NOW, he has to remain champion, a people's champion, that is.

When a guy is a recognized champion, or a people's champ, fans get used to it, and it's hard to start over when it's ruined. Dont let the guy be a Pacquiao, De La Hoya, or a Cotto-type champ, when the world just loves them and may ultimately die if they are dethroned as champ. This is when we see the most upsets.

As for the robbery this past weekend, seriously, what were they going to do with Campillo in regards to his image, had he won? I can't even picture Campillo on a magazine cover, as a new titleholder. Hell, I can hardly picture Tavoris Cloud on the cover of a magazine, and he's the champ laugh.gif

Again, that goes to show you that image goes a long way, and the process cant and wont be stopped by an unknown/relatively unknown fighter. Now, had Cloud fought the likes of Chad Dawson or Jean Pascal last weekend, then his ass would've bee toast when it came down to the cards.

We all wonder what would've happened if Marquez won either 3 of those fights against Pacquiao, especially the last one. The Pacquiao train would been derailed years ago, or after his last fight. Seriously, what were they going to do with Marquez's image this late in his career? Somebody would've seriously dropped the ball if he would've won the rubber match.

We see why Ajose (sp) hasn't gotten his shot against Morales yet. What would he look like being the new WBC champ, while they're still trying to give Morales his last shot at the big stage?
Jack 1000
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 20 2012, 10:55 AM) *
Good post Noles!

I also stopped right at favoritism, everything else follows. That's how the process goes, the promoter does his best with the fighter's career by gassing up...all the way to a title shot. When he wins the title, the promotional process has just begun. NOW, he has to remain champion, a people's champion, that is.

When a guy is a recognized champion, or a people's champ, fans get used to it, and it's hard to start over when it's ruined. Dont let the guy be a Pacquiao, De La Hoya, or a Cotto-type champ, when the world just loves them and may ultimately die if they are dethroned as champ. This is when we see the most upsets.

As for the robbery this past weekend, seriously, what were they going to do with Campillo in regards to his image, had he won? I can't even picture Campillo on a magazine cover, as a new titleholder. Hell, I can hardly picture Tavoris Cloud on the cover of a magazine, and he's the champ laugh.gif

Again, that goes to show you that image goes a long way, and the process cant and wont be stopped by an unknown/relatively unknown fighter. Now, had Cloud fought the likes of Chad Dawson or Jean Pascal last weekend, then his ass would've bee toast when it came down to the cards.

We all wonder what would've happened if Marquez won either 3 of those fights against Pacquiao, especially the last one. The Pacquiao train would been derailed years ago, or after his last fight. Seriously, what were they going to do with Marquez's image this late in his career? Somebody would've seriously dropped the ball if he would've won the rubber match.

We see why Ajose (sp) hasn't gotten his shot against Morales yet. What would he look like being the new WBC champ, while they're still trying to give Morales his last shot at the big stage?


I agree 100%!

Jack
mgrover
favouritism, probably because it's the easiest to spot but home down decisions are really getting out of hand, especially when some fighters blatantly lost.
happygocampy
What i wanna know is, was boxing always like this? I started watching in my early teens during the early to mid 90's. I'd like to say the crap decisions weren't "as" common back than. The past decade though, it's been a complete joke, it seems the majority of televised cards specifically on Showtime and HBO have this problem. I was watching the cloud fight with my old man, and at the final bell i walked out of the room and said "Robbery win for Cloud" without staying to see the winner announced. In my mind i was hoping i was wrong, but it's practically predictable now.

I hear all sorts of reasons for it on top of whats already listed above, such as preferred fight styles, or viewing angles from watching in person and from where they sit etc... I honestly dunno wth it is but wish it would stop.
Franchize
I think there was less need for corruption back in the 80-90's because there were more stars in the sport. Boxing is very top heavy so when journeymen win over big names, it hurts the sport. If Manny loses to a guy like Devon Alexander or Floyd lost to Robert Guerrero, it won't hurt the sport from a marketing and casual fan perspective. When you have an era where Tommy Hearns is the 2nd or 3rd best fighter in a division, you can afford for him to lose. Nowadays, interest in fights are as much the marketing behind them as they are the actual fighters themselves.
Jack 1000
QUOTE (happygocampy @ Feb 21 2012, 07:10 AM) *
What i wanna know is, was boxing always like this? I started watching in my early teens during the early to mid 90's. I'd like to say the crap decisions weren't "as" common back than. The past decade though, it's been a complete joke, it seems the majority of televised cards specifically on Showtime and HBO have this problem. I was watching the cloud fight with my old man, and at the final bell i walked out of the room and said "Robbery win for Cloud" without staying to see the winner announced. In my mind i was hoping i was wrong, but it's practically predictable now.

I hear all sorts of reasons for it on top of whats already listed above, such as preferred fight styles, or viewing angles from watching in person and from where they sit etc... I honestly dunno wth it is but wish it would stop.


Hi HGC,

I felt the same way. I DVR all fights for later viewing and all during the fight as good as it was I had a feeling that Cloud was gonna get a bad win. Fast Forwarding from the final bell to the announcement of the decision, sadly, I was right.

Jack
Cshel86
Did anybody get that feeling of an upset, during the 12th round. I just knew that Cloud was going to lose, but then Antonion Tarver started talking about the De La Hoya dash at the end of the Trinidad fight...and I immediately came to my senses. I also forgot Don King was there...silly me, huh?
Jack 1000
While image and marketing of a fighter from a big promoter may have always generated positive scoring bias, I think it is worse now. Bias can spread not only to the commissions, the sanctioning bodies, and even the commentary. For instance, how many times has Jim Lampley commented in a negative way about an HBO contracted fighter? Pom-Pom shaking in this business is stronger than ever and it trickles down to all involved.

However, bias can be reduced in several ways:

1.) Use only world class officials in major championship fights-Harold Lederman mentioned this again in this fight, and after Williams-Laura. The IBF appointed Mark Nelson to ref the Cloud-Campillo fight. He is a good ref, and his father Denny was assigned as judge, which is OK. Maybe they are not the greatest in the world, but acceptable. However, they left the Texas Commission to pick two judges with no title fight experience. You don't do that for a world championship fight.

2.) When promotional power of each fighter is balanced out along with neutral experienced officials, bias can be greatly reduced or even eliminated altogether. If Cloud had fought Hopkins or Dawson, or a big name opponent under someone like Golden Boy or Top Rank, we would not likely be having this conversation. Lou Dibella is no slouch, that's for sure, but he doesn't have the power of Arum, Golden Boy, or King nor a fighter with a good decision win in his history. Of course even experienced officials can show bias, such as the very close Diaz-Malinaggi fight, in which the match was no more than a two-point edge for either fighter, Texas judge, Gale Van Hoy, despite his experienced, carded 118-110 for hometown hero Diaz.

However, these solutions sadly don't do anything for the fighters like Emmanuel Augustus, who as a journeymen gives good fights, but had a history of getting fucked on decisions. Look at his fight with Cortney Burton, where most observers gave Burton three rounds TOPS. One of the judges came out with a 99-90 Burton scorecard. Or Arum promoted Paulie Ayala against Hugo Dianzo. Everybody on the planet had Hugo winning that fight from 118-110 to 116-112. All three judges had the gave the fight (although close) to Arum promoted Ayala to secure for him a big payday.

Just as bad was Pierre Benoit, the new Jersey aging judge who had been around for years favoring Paul Williams over Sergio Martinz by a score of 119-110! That was another fight that could have, and should have gone either way. And we are talking about a champion in Sergio Martinez and at the time, still a good fighter in Paul Williams. It was great that Sergio got that shocking KO in the rematch.

It is just a shame that when there are bad decisions, that they can overturn how great the action was inside the ring.

Jack


Cshel86
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:05 PM) *
Bias can spread not only to the commissions, the sanctioning bodies, and even the commentary. For instance, how many times has Jim Lampley commented in a negative way about an HBO contracted fighter?

Yep...its absolutely terrible when the commentators get involved. I have great respect for Showtime commentators, rather than HBO commentators. Seriously, those guys at Showtime tell it as they see it, while HBO is too busy promoting the fighters during the fight.

The only two exceptions at HBO are, RJJ, Merchant (sometimes), and Kellerman (for sure). As for Lampley and Steward...those dudes drive me crazy with their nuthugging...that's only if Steward can decide when to hit the switch, since he usually tries to go with the wave of the fight.

Lampley is the worst when it comes to pom-pom waving though. I had to mute the tv for the Khan/Peterson and Donaire/Vasquez fight. I mean seriously, they took it too far. Lampley seemed pissed that only one of the two "knockdowns" were called in the Khan/Peterson fight, when truthfully, both of those knockdowns were bogus as hell.

Guys like Martinez have been robbed out of decisions, and I can see why he tries to knock the shit out of everyone he steps in the ring with. He had to beat Pavlike to bloody pulp to win that MW title. Had Pavlik not been cut, then Im quite sure some fuckery would've taken place...especially after that bogus knockdown occurred.

Good point Jack...it does seem like DiBella's fighters usually get jerked out of decisions. Either that, or they wither away while waiting on a title shot that they earned in an eliminator bout laugh.gif
wolterb
Not to disregard all of these reasons - but I think the biggest obstacle is the very sport itself. A fist fight between two human beings is not something that can be easily officiated, ever, and under any circumstances. The ambiguous duties of boxing referees is very much a part of boxing tradition (Dempsey's long count, Ali holding Frazier behind the head, Chuck Wepner hitting behind the head etc.)...a fight is not something that can be controlled in the same way baseball, basketball, soccer etc.

I do not agree with the notion that referee work is exceptionally bad compared to past eras. This year especially highlighted that aspect of boxing, with all of the debacles. But, historically this is more a continuation than it is a change.
Plah
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 21 2012, 01:46 PM) *
Did anybody get that feeling of an upset, during the 12th round. I just knew that Cloud was going to lose, but then Antonion Tarver started talking about the De La Hoya dash at the end of the Trinidad fight...and I immediately came to my senses. I also forgot Don King was there...silly me, huh?


Felt like that during JMM-Pac 3.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Plah @ Feb 21 2012, 05:04 PM) *
Felt like that during JMM-Pac 3.

You too? laugh.gif
pesticid
That's why it's so hard to bet on boxing. Even if you pick the winner, it's not likely that he'll be declared as one.
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