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Full Version: Blood Doping, EPO and High Altitude Training
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mgrover
High altitude training and High altitude chamber is legal while Blood Doping and EPO are not, yet they both achieve the same results, is this fair? What'd you think? Personally am not sure, but from what I've heard the results seem identical, so what's wrong with EPO and Blood Doping why are they banned?
Cshel86
From your point of view, what's so bad about high altitude training? I want to know before I make an assessment, because I haven't heard any fuss about it from commissions and so forth. I just assumed the fighter would take all risks associated with that type of training.
mgrover
it does the same as EPO and Blood doping, and why is that allowed, it creates an uneven playing field. I hate using this example but say Marquez never used High Alt Chambers, would he of been the same fighter against Pacman? He may of faded more down the stretch.
Cshel86
QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 1 2012, 05:25 PM) *
it does the same as EPO and Blood doping, and why is that allowed, it creates an uneven playing field. I hate using this example but say Marquez never used High Alt Chambers, would he of been the same fighter against Pacman? He may of faded more down the stretch.

Oooooh okay, I was always under the impression that H.A.T. just provides more oxygen to the muscles, since there isn't much oxygen in the air at high altitudes.

Now that I've gone back and read more on it, its clear why you pose the question as to whats the difference between them. It says:
"To compensate for reduction of oxygen in the air, the kidneys secrete more of a hormone called erythropoietin, which causes the body to create more red blood cells."

From what I've also read...erythropoietin is used during blood doping for athletes (which is illegal). Erythopoietin is naturally produced from the kidneys while guys are training at those high altitudes, so I guess it isn't considered a bad thing since it's done naturally. My question is, how would commissions be able to recognize whether or not it's been illegally injected or naturally produced?

Good stuff Grover....
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 1 2012, 06:37 PM) *
Oooooh okay, I was always under the impression that H.A.T. just provides more oxygen to the muscles, since there isn't much oxygen in the air at high altitudes.

Now that I've gone back and read more on it, its clear why you pose the question as to whats the difference between them. It says:
"To compensate for reduction of oxygen in the air, the kidneys secrete more of a hormone called erythropoietin, which causes the body to create more red blood cells."

From what I've also read...erythropoietin is used during blood doping for athletes (which is illegal). Erythopoietin is naturally produced from the kidneys while guys are training at those high altitudes, so I guess it isn't considered a bad thing since it's done naturally. My question is, how would commissions be able to recognize whether or not it's been illegally injected or naturally produced?

Good stuff Grover....


Erythropoesis is a naturally occurring process in every human and it's the ability and rate in which this process occurs is what separates people. Now, the major difference is, H.A.T. forces the body to maximize (or close to it) its natural ability to create add'l oxygenated blood, thereby potentially improving an athlete's VO2 Max. EPO or blood doping, does the exact same thing, but it is manufactured or instigated by a source/product OUTSIDE the body. <------here is your unfair advantage.

Let's think about it this way: The testosterone you naturally produce and synthetic test achieve the same thing. However, when injecting synthetic test (D-bol, Winstrol-V, etc) over a short period of time, gives an unfair advantage b/c it's produced outside your body and you have add'l testosterone (making you bigger, strong, faster and most importantly, allows one to train harder and recover faster). In addition, when cycling on synthetic test, your body often stops producing natural test and relies solely on synthetic (<-----unfair advantage).

Now, is that clear as mud??? LOL.

mgrover
Okay outside the body, but blood doping, and I use my own blood. It's like donating it from me to me. It's just a more practical way to train, that's why I don't think EPO and blood doping should be banned, or they should all be banned. Usually people are caught because there testosterone is through the roof, am still not sure how people are caught doping, someone once said to me it is because there White blood count is high?

Maybe am too much of a fair game guy, even at the gym, I see people with protein shakes, and creatine and I think is that any better than steroids, personally am an all natural guy, I used a protein shake once and never really got into it.



This topic stems from this documentary, I can't find the first part, so you'll have to start at the second, but it's really good, even the famous Victor Conte is in there.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 1 2012, 07:09 PM) *
Okay outside the body, but blood doping, and I use my own blood. It's like donating it from me to me. It's just a more practical way to train, that's why I don't think EPO and blood doping should be banned, or they should all be banned. Usually people are caught because there testosterone is through the roof, am still not sure how people are caught doping, someone once said to me it is because there White blood count is high?

Maybe am too much of a fair game guy, even at the gym, I see people with protein shakes, and creatine and I think is that any better than steroids, personally am an all natural guy, I used a protein shake once and never really got into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QW_L_DrjYM

This topic stems from this documentary, I can't find the first part, so you'll have to start at the second, but it's really good, even the famous Victor Conte is in there.


MGrover....simply put, blood doping is EXTRA blood...extra blood= extra blood cells= more oxygenated blood = unfair advantage.

That was an interesting vid.
Cshel86
Okay thanks Noles, its getting to be a bit clearer to me. Like you said, when guys start cycling on it, their body relies on the synthetic, rather than their body naturally producing it. Kinda reminds me of heroin...but that's another story.

Im glad a fighter's name hasn't come up, especially the main guy in question...hope we keep it that way. The video was interesting, but what was even more interesting is that it wasn't embedded after I made that thread in the general discussion forum this morning nono.gif

We gotta do better Grover laugh.gif
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 1 2012, 07:21 PM) *
Okay thanks Noles, its getting to be a bit clearer to me. Like you said, when guys start cycling on it, their body relies on the synthetic, rather than their body naturally producing it. Kinda reminds me of heroin...but that's another story.

Im glad a fighter's name hasn't come up, especially the main guy in question...hope we keep it that way. The video was interesting, but what was even more interesting is that it wasn't embedded after I made that thread in the general discussion forum this morning nono.gif

We gotta do better Grover laugh.gif



What's funny is, I kinda agree w/ Grover in that, I'm not bothered by most 'roids/PEDs, w/ the exception of two sports: boxing and track & field (wait....is that 3 sports? LOL). The unfair advantage is immediately impacting and often the cornerstone to the recipient's success.
Cshel86
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Mar 1 2012, 06:27 PM) *
What's funny is, I kinda agree w/ Grover in that, I'm not bothered by most 'roids/PEDs, w/ the exception of two sports: boxing and track & field (wait....is that 3 sports? LOL). The unfair advantage is immediately impacting and often the cornerstone to the recipient's success.

Shiiiiit, any contact sport is out of the question for me...especially the likes of football, outside of boxing and MMA. I just dont see how guys are cool with using that stuff when they're paid to beat the other guy to a stupor (if need be).

Imagine if Gatti and Ward were on the juice. We could even go as far as Vasquez/Marquez, where defense was a myth to the both of them no2.gif
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 1 2012, 07:35 PM) *
Shiiiiit, any contact sport is out of the question for me...especially the likes of football, outside of boxing and MMA. I just dont see how guys are cool with using that stuff when they're paid to beat the other guy to a stupor (if need be).

Imagine if Gatti and Ward were on the juice. We could even go as far as Vasquez/Marquez, where defense was a myth to the both of them no2.gif



I give football a pass, as that sport is absolutely brutal on the body and it would aid in recovery. Hell, if you have certain joint problems, providers often give steroid injections to promote healing. Imagine if Tyson or Holyfield was on that....wait a minute...
mgrover
tbh i didnt want to embed it, since i wanted people to watch all of them anyways, i can live with high altitude training, but high altitude chambers seem artificial.

edit:

interesting read

http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Mis.../altitude.shtml
Cshel86
QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 1 2012, 08:12 PM) *
tbh i didnt want to embed it, since i wanted people to watch all of them anyways, i can live with high altitude training, but high altitude chambers seem artificial.

Yeah, I didn't know it was 10 fuckin' parts to this video either! I caught myself sucked into the computer screen. Im cool with the body producing things naturally as well, but Im not with the shots in the ass and so forth nono.gif
mgrover
i dont think anyone likes shots to the ass
Cshel86
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Mar 1 2012, 06:43 PM) *
I give football a pass, as that sport is absolutely brutal on the body and it would aid in recovery. Hell, if you have certain joint problems, providers often give steroid injections to promote healing. Imagine if Tyson or Holyfield was on that....wait a minute...

Sorry Noles, I STILL cant give football a pass, though you are correct about certain types of steroids are legally administered for recovery and such. When I think football and steroids...the first guy that comes to mind is Bill Romanowski. That motherfucker hurt SEVERAL people (intentionally), including his own teammates at times.

I had to be reminded that Mr. Conte had a hand in that as well. Speaking of Conte, he looked funny as hell in that video clip, with that jacked up hairstyle back in the day. I think it was something close to a kentucky waterfall, but dont hold me to that.

Tyson? Holyfield? Steroids? Say it aint so. When I hear those names associated with such activity, I immediately begin to think, "Finster shaving at his age? And tattooed? And smoking a cigar?" <Bugs Bunny voice>

QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 2 2012, 09:08 AM) *
i dont think anyone likes shots to the ass

If million dollar paydays are staring them in the face, then Im sure the "dislike" and "discomfort" goes away without a fight.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 2 2012, 11:16 AM) *
Sorry Noles, I STILL cant give football a pass, though you are correct about certain types of steroids are legally administered for recovery and such. When I think football and steroids...the first guy that comes to mind is Bill Romanowski. That motherfucker hurt SEVERAL people (intentionally), including his own teammates at times.

Tyson? Holyfield? Steroids? Say it aint so. When I hear those names associated with such activity, I immediately begin to think, "Finster shaving at his age? And tattooed? And smoking a cigar?" <Bugs Bunny voice>


If million dollar paydays are staring them in the face, then Im sure the "dislike" and "discomfort" goes away without a fight.


I can understand how people won't give football a pass....but I'd remind you, the football we love and adore so much, by and large, is built on the "pin". Meaning, many of those guys who run, jump and hit so hard & fast, likely are doing so b/c of some "synthetic talent". It's a conundrum, much like the Jack Nicholson's line in A Few Good Men, that speaks of those who want protection, but complain about the manner in which it's provided (paraphrasing). Again, I get it, but if there's a sport that I can understand it's usage, it's football

That comment about steroids was about Holyfield not Tyson. Do you not remember the steroid shipment that was delivered to Holyfield's house? They (Feds) tracked to how he paid for it as well (don't know if it was a credit card, check, etc.).
Cheesey1
V. interesting topic. People have been posting some interesting stuff recently.

Bnoles summed it up, I liked the testosterone comparison. I'm not surprised that Holyfield was on 'roids. Probably still is. He's another "saint" that wasn't a saint. Haha, I'm not referring to anyone in particular...

CShel "kinda reminds me of heroin.." I'm assuming that rehab went well?

Re. protein shakes, the only protein shakes that I'll drink are using 100% organic, hemp protein powder, fruit and juice.

In my very simple opinion, all PEDs are bad, only cheaters use them and there's never a time when they're acceptable (except in a medical situation).
Cshel86
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Mar 2 2012, 11:35 AM) *
Bnoles summed it up, I liked the testosterone comparison. I'm not surprised that Holyfield was on 'roids. Probably still is. He's another "saint" that wasn't a saint. Haha, I'm not referring to anyone in particular...

CShel "kinda reminds me of heroin.." I'm assuming that rehab went well?

Shut up Cheesey! And dont worry about my stints in rehab sir...thats between me and my group laugh.gif Glad to see a 4th man in the circle...it was a strong 3 for a minute.

As for that Holyfield comment, absolutely correct. This dude let "God, Jesus, etc" fly out of his mouth, and people instantly got amnesia countless times, when he did wrong. Sound familar?
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 2 2012, 11:50 AM) *
Shut up Cheesey! And dont worry about my stints in rehab sir...thats between me and my group laugh.gif Glad to see a 4th man in the circle...it was a strong 3 for a minute.

As for that Holyfield comment, absolutely correct. This dude let "God, Jesus, etc" fly out of his mouth, and people instantly got amnesia countless times, when he did wrong. Sound familar?

You know what they say about rehab....if at first you don't succeed...and whatever you do, don't hook up with Lindsay Lohan!
mgrover
Funny how its so acceptable in some sports like Body Building, I mean if your not juicing your not making top ten, am glad power lifting has started to enforce drug testing.

I prefer the taste of food to protein shakes, one of my main reasons I never got into the supplements fad.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (mgrover @ Mar 2 2012, 09:00 PM) *
Funny how its so acceptable in some sports like Body Building, I mean if your not juicing your not making top ten, am glad power lifting has started to enforce drug testing.

I prefer the taste of food to protein shakes, one of my main reasons I never got into the supplements fad.

Yup, weight lifting's/ body building's a mess.
mrchitown
Unfortunately is a major factor in all sports. I love Boxing and it's a brutal sport which makes the use of illegal substances dangerous but cheating is cheating. I'm sure that it's probably a lot of cases that we haven't heard of yet or never will for that matter, in which people are taking these illegal substances. I've never seen any justification for it even though some do try to justify it. For those who've been high school and college athletes, they teach you certain "attributes" that you could use in the game or on the field, etc LOL. In essence their teaching you how to cheat legitimately within the rules of the game, and I'm cool with that. We called them "veteran moves" in college LOL, but I'd rather get beat like that then by somebody who's doping. People like Justin Gatlin, Marion Jones, Evander Holyfield, etc...got over on using illegal substances and to me it just leaves something to the imagination about just how good they really are/were
Cshel86
I just looked back at the Alexander/Matthysse fight, and according to Devon, he was doing high "aptitude" training...but does this training help when you're not your strongest at a weight that you should no longer be fighting at? Does the doping process take the edge off, in the same situation?
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Mar 7 2012, 10:59 AM) *
I just looked back at the Alexander/Matthysse fight, and according to Devon, he was doing high "aptitude" training...but does this training help when you're not your strongest at a weight that you should no longer be fighting at? Does the doping process take the edge off, in the same situation?


I think most def it helps, especially if you're in non-optimal conditions. Remember, blood doping is the redistribution of previously extracted blood back into the body. This gives you extra oxygenated blood cells and an increase in stamina. I'm thinking, w/o this, a person who isn't at a good weight, wouldn't be able to perform as long as he could w/ this enhancement.
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