Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Reported Revenue Numbers From Mayweather-Cotto-1.5 mil
FightHype Community > BOXING HYPE > Boxing
leonthegee
Great fight. Great number. Thoughts?
pimpfighterROQ
Very good numbers but I expected it to be much more. Since it had Canelo, Cotto and Mayweather all in the same card...plus it was a cinco de mayo event. Nonetheless very good numbers. Thats more than Pacquiao will ever make lol!
phontain
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ May 11 2012, 02:26 PM) *
Very good numbers but I expected it to be much more. Since it had Canelo, Cotto and Mayweather all in the same card...plus it was a cinco de mayo event. Nonetheless very good numbers. Thats more than Pacquiao will ever make lol!


oh can u tell me again how much canelo has sold on ppv? im curious to kno? I think it was outstanding numbers and may go up by the time its all counted. But at 70 dollars a pop, thats a lot of people buying. Pac wont get those numbers wit bradley and bob knows it. Aint no 50/50 happening and bob knows that too lol..
aTYpicalTYrant
QUOTE (phontain @ May 11 2012, 02:44 PM) *
oh can u tell me again how much canelo has sold on ppv? im curious to kno? I think it was outstanding numbers and may go up by the time its all counted. But at 70 dollars a pop, thats a lot of people buying. Pac wont get those numbers wit bradley and bob knows it. Aint no 50/50 happening and bob knows that too lol..


Couldnt have said it better myself. It's kind of tough to not understand Floyd's point of view when the numbers support him. I have little hope that the fight between May n Pac will ever happen. As a business decision I get it. But as a passionate fan of boxing this without a doubt is a travesTY.
checkleft
These official numbers?
Franchize
QUOTE (checkleft @ May 11 2012, 04:06 PM) *
These official numbers?

Everyone from Dan Rafael to the small boxing sites are reporting it.

I'm at work and when I went to my Facebook and saw it I let out a big whooooooooooooo whistle. I'm glad they came out nice and early too so Arum can spare us his bullshit speculation. Those numbers are the equivalent of getting a girl in your room, dropping your boxers and just standing there looking at her with a smile on your face and your hands on your hips. It's called the "yea I know it's big face." Everyone involved with this card just hit the other promoters with the "yea I know it's big" face lol
daprofessor
let's not act like canelo didn't help push those numbers. still good imo. it's the first ppv card i've purchased in years. laugh.gif
Franchize
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 11 2012, 04:23 PM) *
let's not act like canelo didn't help push those numbers. still good imo. it's the first ppv card i've purchased in years. laugh.gif


I don't think anyone is acting like that. But when you don't pigeon hole yourself into only letting ppl under your label eat, you can do numbers like this. When you only want to work with Top Prank fighters, then you do good but not great numbers.
karmine20
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 11 2012, 03:13 PM) *
Everyone from Dan Rafael to the small boxing sites are reporting it.

I'm at work and when I went to my Facebook and saw it I let out a big whooooooooooooo whistle. I'm glad they came out nice and early too so Arum can spare us his bullshit speculation. Those numbers are the equivalent of getting a girl in your room, dropping your boxers and just standing there looking at her with a smile on your face and your hands on your hips. It's called the "yea I know it's big face." Everyone involved with this card just hit the other promoters with the "yea I know it's big" face lol



actually he may have helped but please believe it wasnt that much help. and we def will find out in sept since he is headlining his own ppv.
Franchize
QUOTE (karmine20 @ May 11 2012, 04:35 PM) *
actually he may have helped but please believe it wasnt that much help. and we def will find out in sept since he is headlining his own ppv.


Who's "he"?
Hotsauce
at $70


GOTDAMN
bMaK
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 11 2012, 04:23 PM) *
let's not act like canelo didn't help push those numbers. still good imo. it's the first ppv card i've purchased in years. laugh.gif

My dude, I know YOU know better! Canelo has never headlined a PPV, he was the undercard for a Mosley PPV that sold like 100-200K. Saturday, just like his last few fights under a Mayweather card, he was the undercard to a PPV that sold over 1MM.

Stop trollin laugh.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 11 2012, 04:34 PM) *
I don't think anyone is acting like that. But when you don't pigeon hole yourself into only letting ppl under your label eat, you can do numbers like this. When you only want to work with Top Prank fighters, then you do good but not great numbers.


true.

for me...i believe that they have been abusing the use of ppv. i can never get behind anything that would limit viewership of my beloved sport.
daprofessor
QUOTE (bMaK @ May 11 2012, 05:00 PM) *
My dude, I know YOU know better! Canelo has never headlined a PPV, he was the undercard for a Mosley PPV that sold like 100-200K. Saturday, just like his last few fights under a Mayweather card, he was the undercard to a PPV that sold over 1MM.

Stop trollin laugh.gif


laugh.gif

i ain't trollin! let's be real about it. floyd knew what he was doing with the mexican ginger on the undercard on 'cinco de mayo!!!!' that was a strategic move that paid dividends. i ain't mad at him!!! i'm not mad at him for having that lesbian beiber kid, 50 and triple H walk him to the ring either. the man is a marketing genius!!!

plus...u heard merchant....they worship opie in mexico!!! i live in socal...and believe me...more ppl here were excited about canelo/mosley than floyd/cotto. i don't know how many ppl told me "floyd will beat him easily...and why is he wasting his time fighting pac's leftovers...blah,blah,blah...." canelo does serious numbers in mexico. i'm sure he had something to do with driving those numbers. but like someone else said...we'll find out for sure when he headlines his own ppv.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (aTYpicalTYrant @ May 11 2012, 07:02 PM) *
Couldnt have said it better myself. It's kind of tough to not understand Floyd's point of view when the numbers support him. I have little hope that the fight between May n Pac will ever happen. As a business decision I get it. But as a passionate fan of boxing this without a doubt is a travesTY.



Again It seems there is a misunderstanding about the purse split. One Floyd is the biggest PPV draw in the sport, But Pac is easily the second biggest draw in the sport, who has been averaging over 1m in PPV buys.

That Being said, Do you or anyone really expect a man who averages over 1m in PPV buys to accept 40m, and no PPV revenue?


Im all for floyd getting 55/45 or even 60/40, but a flat 40m to Pac, with Pac getting no PPV revenue isnt a realistic offer. Floyd is pricing himself out of the fight.
MaxPayne
I think it's a fair number, when you consider Cinco De Mayo, the opposition and the undercard. It definitely beat my expectations by about 150K buys, but it's a testament to the mystique of Floyd for sure. I imagine all told, he'll walk away with about $70 MM, given that his total earnings from the Mosley fight were $65 MM and that card did 1.4 MM buys.
daprofessor
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ May 11 2012, 06:43 PM) *
I think it's a fair number, when you consider Cinco De Mayo, the opposition and the undercard. It definitely beat my expectations by about 150K buys, but it's a testament to the mystique of Floyd for sure. I imagine all told, he'll walk away with about $70 MM, given that his total earnings from the Mosley fight were $65 MM and that card did 1.4 MM buys.


i remember when i thought the 25mil buster douglas made to fight holyfield couldn't be topped. laugh.gif

it's amazing to say the least....but all the other fighters out there who have the ambition to make this kind of money should really go to school on this. stuff like this doesn't happen by accident. there is a lot of careful planning....ppl making the right connections/decisions....marketing...etc..etc...it really takes a solid team. make no mistake about it....al haymon is the head.
pimpfighterROQ
Whats really interesting was that this is just second to the highest ppv matchup ever in boxing. This fight was waaayyy more exciting compared to what De la Hoya Mayweather fight was...


The fight lived up to its hype.

Lets see how Pacquiao vs Bradley do. The undercard is solid imo. I expect about a million ppv's for this one. Just about 1 mil to 1.2. Not imaginary numbers according to Bobby Arum's numbers. He said Pacquiao Mosley did 1.4 mil ppv last time...LOL.
Hotsauce
i read that 1.5 mill wasn't the total number
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 11 2012, 04:23 PM) *
let's not act like canelo didn't help push those numbers. still good imo. it's the first ppv card i've purchased in years. laugh.gif

Im not sure that people were stuck at a crossroads, and ended up buying the fight because Canelo was on the card. Before last weekend, to a casual or clueless fan out there, Canleo was just "the redheaded guy that's getting ready to fight Shane".

Before that, Im not sure people were uttering, "Ay man, did you see Canelo bury Cintron, Baldomir, Rhodes, Hatton and Gomez? Man that shit was awesome!" So I still dont understand the whole thing about Canelo adding 500k buys to this card (not that you said that) when he's still relatively unknown.

I keep hearing guys argue about how many viewers Canelo has, but let's be real, viewers and buyers are TWO different things. Im sure that more than 1.5M people "watched" this recent PPV, but not many outside of that number hit the "buy" button. Perfect example, there were 13 "viewers in my house last weekend, but there was only one "buyer", which of course was me. laugh.gif
iKeNjiro
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 12 2012, 05:13 AM) *
Everyone from Dan Rafael to the small boxing sites are reporting it.

I'm at work and when I went to my Facebook and saw it I let out a big whooooooooooooo whistle. I'm glad they came out nice and early too so Arum can spare us his bullshit speculation. Those numbers are the equivalent of getting a girl in your room, dropping your boxers and just standing there looking at her with a smile on your face and your hands on your hips. It's called the "yea I know it's big face." Everyone involved with this card just hit the other promoters with the "yea I know it's big" face lol


this was awesome
I will be using this expression in life from here out...

"yea I know it's big"
aTYpicalTYrant
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ May 11 2012, 05:43 PM) *
Again It seems there is a misunderstanding about the purse split. One Floyd is the biggest PPV draw in the sport, But Pac is easily the second biggest draw in the sport, who has been averaging over 1m in PPV buys.

That Being said, Do you or anyone really expect a man who averages over 1m in PPV buys to accept 40m, and no PPV revenue?


Im all for floyd getting 55/45 or even 60/40, but a flat 40m to Pac, with Pac getting no PPV revenue isnt a realistic offer. Floyd is pricing himself out of the fight.


I should have clarified a bit more. I don't agree with Pac getting None of the PPV shares...... But I do believe Floyd's record 32 million pay day and his PPV buys do warrant him getting the Lion's share of both. Does Pac generate PPV revenue? Of course! I agree that Pac is the 2nd biggest draw in the sport. But their is no disputing that Floyd has been apart of the #1 and #2 PPV purchases (outside of heavyweight) in boxing Ever.
pimpfighterROQ
It should be 70/30 or even 80/20 in favor of Floyd. But 100% ppv all to him is indeed ridiculous i must say. But yes he does deserve a whole lot more than a 50/50 that Pac is asking for.
Franchize
I'm just glad Floyd put it out there in the public. Bob Arum is the one holding up the fight. I just wish reporters would stop being so irresponsible and take Bob to task. It's all irresponsible journalism. Bob is a liar. People in Pacquiao's own camp have come to the table and said it. Pacquiao DID NOT agree to random 2 years ago. Michael Konz himself said it on June 8th, 2011. The fact that Floyd is even negotiating with a guy who has a defamation suit against him is startling. Last time I checked, if you're a fighter, you settle your beef in the ring. Either way, Pacquiao has losses, draws and multiple controversial wins on his record. Floyd's only remotely debatable fight was a decade ago...and he fought that fight southpaw for a lot of that fight because he hurt his shoulder. This fight should be AT BEST 60/40.
sduck
When they were first reporting Mayweather-Ortiz numbers, they said 1.3 million, but the actual total was 1.25 million. That's still amazing numbers considering Victor Ortiz is completely unknown outside of boxing. Cotto does make headlines, he's made sports headlines when he avenged his loss against Margarito. He is the 4th most known outside of boxing, after 3rd Shane Mosley. It should do better than 1.5 million, but I am expecting officially 1.4 million.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 11 2012, 10:21 PM) *
Im not sure that people were stuck at a crossroads, and ended up buying the fight because Canelo was on the card. Before last weekend, to a casual or clueless fan out there, Canleo was just "the redheaded guy that's getting ready to fight Shane".

Before that, Im not sure people were uttering, "Ay man, did you see Canelo bury Cintron, Baldomir, Rhodes, Hatton and Gomez? Man that shit was awesome!" So I still dont understand the whole thing about Canelo adding 500k buys to this card (not that you said that) when he's still relatively unknown.

I keep hearing guys argue about how many viewers Canelo has, but let's be real, viewers and buyers are TWO different things. Im sure that more than 1.5M people "watched" this recent PPV, but not many outside of that number hit the "buy" button. Perfect example, there were 13 "viewers in my house last weekend, but there was only one "buyer", which of course was me. laugh.gif


i live in socal...aka....el norte...northern mexico. they've been talking about canelo here for the last few years. u are forgetting that canelo filled up staples the same night floyd fought ortiz on that last ppv. they've found a formula that works...and best believe they are piggy backing canelo to floyd for good reason $$$. i'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the majority of the ppl who purchased that ppv were in fact mexicans. i don't know if they track that sort of thing....but trust me when i tell u, all the mexicans here in socal know who canelo is.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 14 2012, 02:23 PM) *
i live in socal...aka....el norte...northern mexico. they've been talking about canelo here for the last few years. u are forgetting that canelo filled up staples the same night floyd fought ortiz on that last ppv. they've found a formula that works...and best believe they are piggy backing canelo to floyd for good reason $$$. i'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the majority of the ppl who purchased that ppv were in fact mexicans. i don't know if they track that sort of thing....but trust me when i tell u, all the mexicans here in socal know who canelo is.

Did Alvarez/Gomez really pack the Staples Center as it was advertised? The last person I remember filling up the Staples Center, was Mosley, when he fought the Home Depot Hurricane (Margarito).

I agree with the fact that they're piggybacking Canelo to Floyd for money...quite obvious. I still have my reservations about a casual fan ordering the fight because Canelo was on the card. If anything, they did solely because Shane, THEN Canelo. I just cant imagine people being on the fence about ordering this fight, and Canelo being the deciding factor.

daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 14 2012, 03:43 PM) *
Did Alvarez/Gomez really pack the Staples Center as it was advertised? The last person I remember filling up the Staples Center, was Mosley, when he fought the Home Depot Hurricane (Margarito).

I agree with the fact that they're piggybacking Canelo to Floyd for money...quite obvious. I still have my reservations about a casual fan ordering the fight because Canelo was on the card. If anything, they did solely because Shane, THEN Canelo. I just cant imagine people being on the fence about ordering this fight, and Canelo being the deciding factor.


i wasn't there...but i heard he did pretty good.

also...mexican fans are not casual. i can't tell u how many ppl i talk to daily that follow the sport that are mexican. they are truly die hards. these are some of the ppl who have been following boxing since the days of sanchez and chavez. they are longing for their next star. they know jr is manufactured and i've heard plenty of them say that canelo is the real deal.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 14 2012, 04:25 PM) *
i wasn't there...but i heard he did pretty good.

also...mexican fans are not casual. i can't tell u how many ppl i talk to daily that follow the sport that are mexican. they are truly die hards. these are some of the ppl who have been following boxing since the days of sanchez and chavez. they are longing for their next star. they know jr is manufactured and i've heard plenty of them say that canelo is the real deal.

I will have to find out how his gate went for the Gomez fight. I agree that Mexican are hardcore fans, but let's be real, there are more Mexican viewers than buyers. If all of those guys were that hardcore then Canelo, Oscar, just to name a few, would be crazy rich.

Canelo had a bout 40M people watching him fight somebody recently, but had those 40M been buyers...we'd all be asking, "Who is this Money Manyweather guy?" laugh.gif Seriously though, I get what you're saying...
Hotsauce
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 14 2012, 06:59 PM) *
I will have to find out how his gate went for the Gomez fight. I agree that Mexican are hardcore fans, but let's be real, there are more Mexican viewers than buyers. If all of those guys were that hardcore then Canelo, Oscar, just to name a few, would be crazy rich.

Canelo had a bout 40M people watching him fight somebody recently, but had those 40M been buyers...we'd all be asking, "Who is this Money Manyweather guy?" laugh.gif Seriously though, I get what you're saying...


canelo is fighting on ppv in sept
Cshel86
QUOTE (Hotsauce @ May 14 2012, 10:41 PM) *
canelo is fighting on ppv in sept

I heard. I guess GBP will try to see how good his drawing power is when he headlines his own PPV card. I would project around 300k since it's his first, but hell, who knows...he may be one of those guys who start doing better numbers and end up being a big PPV star in the future.
Franchize
I really like watching Canelo and each time I become more and more intrigued with him as a budding young prospect. That said, it's WAY too soon for me to buy one of his PPVs. Unless he's fighting Maravilla or JCC Jr, I'll be streaming that shit lol

Also, I don't think Golden Boy is seizing the opportunity of the new Barclays arena opening (the Nets new stadium). This is a big deal. The team sucks but star power will fill this building...at least at first. I'd be trying to get Canelo in THERE if I was Oscar. Brooklyn is one of the smaller borough but it has the most people. In fact, it has more people in it than a lot of cities. I have no doubt that, given the right fighters, they can get a huge gate and huge PPV numbers for whoever doesn't pay to get in. They should do the whole movie theatre thing again.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 15 2012, 10:52 AM) *
I really like watching Canelo and each time I become more and more intrigued with him as a budding young prospect. That said, it's WAY too soon for me to buy one of his PPVs. Unless he's fighting Maravilla or JCC Jr, I'll be streaming that shit lol

It's still waaaay too early to out him in there with Martinez or Chavez Jr. I'm really starting to not like Sergio's crying, begging ass...I wouldn't give him shit at this point.

Arum will milk Julio until he has nothing more to offer, but even then, Julio is still too big for Canelo. I know Canelo weighed 167 or the Mosley fight, but fighting a teller, stronger, 180+ lb MW will spell trouble for the young Canelo. Now, if he's presented that opportunity, and is able to chop down that tree, then more power to him.

Again, as for Sergio...to hell with him. He has to beg for a Chavez fight in his own division, and is willing to kill himself (weight-wise) for a payday by going down to 150 or even 154. Dude has been a MW for 2 years, so he may want to give that up.

sduck
I could be very wrong, but I think Andy Lee has a good shot at beating both JCC Jr. and Sergio Martinez. He's a pure boxer and that's what it takes to beat these guys.
Franchize
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 15 2012, 11:06 AM) *
It's still waaaay too early to out him in there with Martinez or Chavez Jr. I'm really starting to not like Sergio's crying, begging ass...I wouldn't give him shit at this point.

Arum will milk Julio until he has nothing more to offer, but even then, Julio is still too big for Canelo. I know Canelo weighed 167 or the Mosley fight, but fighting a teller, stronger, 180+ lb MW will spell trouble for the young Canelo. Now, if he's presented that opportunity, and is able to chop down that tree, then more power to him.

Again, as for Sergio...to hell with him. He has to beg for a Chavez fight in his own division, and is willing to kill himself (weight-wise) for a payday by going down to 150 or even 154. Dude has been a MW for 2 years, so he may want to give that up.


I agree about Sergio but I think I'm in the minority about JCC Jr. I think Canelo will beat him. I don't think Canelo is a natural 154 fighter. He needs to move up. I think that's why he fights in spurts. I was never impressed by JCC Jr. I don't get how he escapes every viable opponent. He won't fight the smaller guys (Maravilla and Canelo). He won't fight the bigger guys (Andre Ward, Dirrell, Dawson etc). WTF?

I hope Andy Lee puts it on him

correction: I know why he escapes every opponent (Arum) but I don't get how. Theres ppl other than Mayweather for Manny to fight at 147. JCC Jr is 26 and hasn't fought anyone worth talking about except maybe Rubio.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 15 2012, 11:56 AM) *
I agree about Sergio but I think I'm in the minority about JCC Jr. I think Canelo will beat him. I don't think Canelo is a natural 154 fighter. He needs to move up. I think that's why he fights in spurts. I was never impressed by JCC Jr. I don't get how he escapes every viable opponent. He won't fight the smaller guys (Maravilla and Canelo). He won't fight the bigger guys (Andre Ward, Dirrell, Dawson etc). WTF?

I hope Andy Lee puts it on him

correction: I know why he escapes every opponent (Arum) but I don't get how. Theres ppl other than Mayweather for Manny to fight at 147. JCC Jr is 26 and hasn't fought anyone worth talking about except maybe Rubio.

I just cant see Canelo handling Julio towering over him and taking his punches. If Canelo couldn't brutalize Shane, Rhodes, or Hatton, then there's no way Julio will respect his punching power. I agree that Canelo is a bull, and he will try to bring the fight to Julio, and that's what Julio wants.

This fight will surely remind me of Cotto/Margarito 1, where Toney was happy to take the punches of soft punching Cotto that was relatively new to the weight, well, he was a smaller WW. 154 is good weight for Canelo at this point, no need for him to move up. He can nearly clean out the division (as often as he fights), then save a big Cotto fight for late next year (if he chooses).

Julio escapes every viable opponents because of his size and most guys like Rios and few others, nearly kill themselves to make weight and bully guys around.
checkleft
Canelo is way too small for 160 (height wise)... But I still think his competition has been pretty soft to this point. Wanna prove a point put him in there with the molina aka the guy that almost fucks everything up
Cshel86
QUOTE (checkleft @ May 15 2012, 01:00 PM) *
Canelo is way too small for 160 (height wise)... But I still think his competition has been pretty soft to this point. Wanna prove a point put him in there with the molina aka the guy that almost fucks everything up

He's about 5'8 so you may be right him being being too short for 160. Guys like Corrales was tall as hell for 130 and guys thought he would breeze through weight classes, but he slowed down big time around 140, and had no business at WW. Some guys usually beat the odds, but who knows...
Hotsauce
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 15 2012, 10:06 AM) *
It's still waaaay too early to out him in there with Martinez or Chavez Jr. I'm really starting to not like Sergio's crying, begging ass...I wouldn't give him shit at this point.

Arum will milk Julio until he has nothing more to offer, but even then, Julio is still too big for Canelo. I know Canelo weighed 167 or the Mosley fight, but fighting a teller, stronger, 180+ lb MW will spell trouble for the young Canelo. Now, if he's presented that opportunity, and is able to chop down that tree, then more power to him.

Again, as for Sergio...to hell with him. He has to beg for a Chavez fight in his own division, and is willing to kill himself (weight-wise) for a payday by going down to 150 or even 154. Dude has been a MW for 2 years, so he may want to give that up.


thats 3 years, if im not mistaken
Cshel86
QUOTE (Hotsauce @ May 15 2012, 08:53 PM) *
thats 3 years, if im not mistaken

His first MW fight was with P. Willy on Dec. '09...I would've waited 'til this upcoming Dec. to say 3 years, but I think you get the point. laugh.gif
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 14 2012, 10:41 AM) *
I'm just glad Floyd put it out there in the public. Bob Arum is the one holding up the fight. I just wish reporters would stop being so irresponsible and take Bob to task. It's all irresponsible journalism. Bob is a liar. People in Pacquiao's own camp have come to the table and said it. Pacquiao DID NOT agree to random 2 years ago. Michael Konz himself said it on June 8th, 2011. The fact that Floyd is even negotiating with a guy who has a defamation suit against him is startling. Last time I checked, if you're a fighter, you settle your beef in the ring. Either way, Pacquiao has losses, draws and multiple controversial wins on his record. Floyd's only remotely debatable fight was a decade ago...and he fought that fight southpaw for a lot of that fight because he hurt his shoulder. This fight should be AT BEST 60/40.



People rarely, if ever, let facts get in the way of their argument. It doesn't matter what Floyd says, people usually start believing the opposite.
Hotsauce
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 15 2012, 08:10 PM) *
His first MW fight was with P. Willy on Dec. '09...I would've waited 'til this upcoming Dec. to say 3 years, but I think you get the point. laugh.gif



u right
Franchize
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ May 15 2012, 09:47 PM) *
People rarely, if ever, let facts get in the way of their argument. It doesn't matter what Floyd says, people usually start believing the opposite.

I agree but it at least makes some of the casual fans say "who the fuck is Bob Arum and how is he in the way of the fight?"
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.