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daprofessor
he's the best middleweight in the world and he's on the outside looking in. for shame.
flazi
even sadder is that his window of opportunity is closing, he is what 37 right? he has maybe 2 more years at a high level. at his fight rate thats just 3 fights.
daprofessor
truth be told....i think the fight with chavez jr won't be an easy one for sergio.
un01
dont worry, when hes 40 and starts showing signs of slippage, everyone will knocking on his door for a match
bnoles4life
+1.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (un01 @ Jun 1 2012, 02:01 PM) *
dont worry, when hes 40 and starts showing signs of slippage, everyone will knocking on his door for a match


+1
BigFightFan
Sergio is overhyped, I can't say with confidence that he would beat Chavez jr let along some of the other top MW's in the division. No one was on his bandwagon until he KO'd Williams, which was a good once in a lifetime punch. He want be able to repeat that performance. Not to mention Macklin and barker gave him problems.

checkleft
The sadder part is that four of the other top middles are fighting each other and none of them are even as big a draw as him so even if he fights them it will be a showtime or hbo bout tops.
BigFightFan
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 1 2012, 03:50 PM) *
The sadder part is that four of the other top middles are fighting each other and none of them are even as big a draw as him so even if he fights them it will be a showtime or hbo bout tops.

Sergio is not a big draw at all. He couldn't sell a 100,000 ppv buys if he bout 99, 000 of them
checkleft
QUOTE (BigFightFan @ Jun 1 2012, 04:03 PM) *
Sergio is not a big draw at all. He couldn't sell a 100,000 ppv buys if he bout 99, 000 of them

That was my point... The other guys are even less of a draw
leonthegee
His last fight made like 600,000 at the gate. And most of those guys were drunken Irishman coming to see Macklin. The Argentinians in the US dont even support him. No wonder he asked Floyd for 20%. He dont even deserve that. If he was smart hed be like the Klitzkos and hold fights back home instead of trying to make it big over here.
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (BigFightFan @ Jun 1 2012, 03:50 PM) *
Sergio is overhyped, I can't say with confidence that he would beat Chavez jr let along some of the other top MW's in the division. No one was on his bandwagon until he KO'd Williams, which was a good once in a lifetime punch. He want be able to repeat that performance. Not to mention Macklin and barker gave him problems.


I respect his skills and have for a long time now,.....

But I actually agree with this assessment
mgrover
he isn't a pound for pound fighter sure, but he is the best man at 160lb. yes he may struggle with chavez jr, but i still think in a fair fight he'd take the decision or it'd be a late tko as usual.
daprofessor
let's not front...sergio is the man to beat at 160. he's had an impressive string of wins that can't be topped by anyone in the division currently. i really don't care who's the biggest draw....or who sells what....these other guys need to fight him. i'd like to see sergio fight the winners of any of the unifying tournaments.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 1 2012, 06:22 PM) *
let's not front...sergio is the man to beat at 160. he's had an impressive string of wins that can't be topped by anyone in the division currently. i really don't care who's the biggest draw....or who sells what....these other guys need to fight him. i'd like to see sergio fight the winners of any of the unifying tournaments.

+1

I can see how people can say he is overrated, but come on guys not a p4p fighter? He might not be top 3 but definitely top 5 or 10. He is a dominant champ who is getting ducked by most from 154 to 160.. he just kod the guy who people unanimously thought beat sturm and was also ranked #2 as a middleweight. I do hope he gets either the winner of sterm geale, golovkin pirog, or chavez..
BigFightFan
[quote name='checkleft' date='Jun 1 2012, 06:56 PM' post='560054']
+1

I can see how people can say he is overrated, but come on guys not a p4p fighter? He might not be top 3 but definitely top 5 or 10. He is a dominant champ who is getting ducked by most from 154 to 160.. he just kod the guy who people unanimously thought beat sturm and was also ranked #2 as a middleweight. I do hope he gets either the winner of sterm geale, golovkin pirog, or chavez..
[
As much as we would like to see him fight certain guys, promoters do not want to take risk with a low reward. If he generated money he would fought some of these other guys by now. It's business first always in boxing
daprofessor
QUOTE
As much as we would like to see him fight certain guys, promoters do not want to take risk with a low reward. If he generated money he would fought some of these other guys by now. It's business first always in boxing


none of the other guys are big names....and none have a resume as impressive as sergio.
Cheesey1
For me, Sergio Martinez is definitely in the top 10 p4p, maybe top 5.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Jun 1 2012, 08:20 PM) *
For me, Sergio Martinez is definitely in the top 10 p4p, maybe top 5.


but at 160? who's above him?
BigFightFan
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 1 2012, 08:01 PM) *
none of the other guys are big names....and none have a resume as impressive as sergio.

Chavez for sure is a bigger name and bigger draw. He doesn't have the resume of Martinez though
Cshel86


Love these kind of threads! Oh how I dreamed of such a thread! Problem with Sergio, is that he was so busy waiting around and crying for his belt back. While he was doing that, Chavez was having some meaningful fights (to a degree) and building his name up.

Sad thing is (as Ben mentioned), Chavez is taking all of the "name-building" opponents at 160, while Sergio sniff's Julio's every bowel movement. What's worse is that Chavez just got a Lee bout, and Martinez could've taken that fight, or fought the winner of a possible Macklin/Lee bout.

He should be chasing guys like Mayorga or even a Margarito rematch, since nobody remembers the first fight at WW. Hell, it aint like Chavez isn't fighting "past it" fighters, but at least he's getting recognition for it.

Sergio thinks that he's more of a draw than he really is, which is a neatly presented dish of delusion, which he is serving himself. Chavez can take the "fuck you" route by vacating the title (which means less/no money for the WBC since he's a draw), and he can move up to 168 or continue to taunt Sergio and still fight at MW.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 1 2012, 06:22 PM) *
these other guys need to fight him.

Actually its the other way around. He has some good names on his resume from the past, but its bad that those name fighters weren't even a draw back then, and guys like Canelo can get recognition off of fighting Cintron, while everybody else is milking Margarito's name and controversial career antics.

He needs to go ahead and at least fight Mayorga, before Canelo gets his hands on him and gets praised for beating him. We may also see Margarito give Chavez's name a bigger boost when that fight is made in the near future.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 1 2012, 08:43 PM) *
but at 160? who's above him?

160 arguably isn't anywhere as deep as the three divisions beneath it (or the two divisions above), but yeah Sergio clearly has to be the top guy at 160. I still think that he's a top p4p guy. (I definitely don't mean the top draw though).
checkleft
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Jun 1 2012, 11:17 PM) *
160 arguably isn't anywhere as deep as the three divisions beneath it, but yeah Sergio clearly has to be the top guy at 160. I still think that he's a top p4p guy. (I definitely don't mean the top draw though).


Very valid I think a lot of people confuse top draw and p4p, it really isn't the same shit. Martinez=p4p fighter not top draw, miguel cotto=draw not top p4p fighter.
Cshel86
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 2 2012, 12:20 AM) *
Very valid I think a lot of people confuse top draw and p4p, it really isn't the same shit. Martinez=p4p fighter not top draw, miguel cotto=draw not top p4p fighter.

I agree Check. I almost raised my eyebrow at the Cotto not being P4P comment, but as I sat and thought about it, you're absolutely right. I wouldn't even consider Martinez a top P4P fighter, but thats just my opinion and so is P4P lists.
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 2 2012, 12:20 AM) *
Very valid I think a lot of people confuse top draw and p4p, it really isn't the same shit. Martinez=p4p fighter not top draw, miguel cotto=draw not top p4p fighter.


Glad Cshel decided not to raise his brow becuase I certainly did. But I will shy away from that comment becuase thats a totally different thread all together..

Now as far as Martinez being the P4P man? Idk honestly, at this stage he is the man who is on a decent run who happen to knockout the most avoided fighter in boxing. By doing that you become that... But I dont see him unbeatable, I see someone looking for a big payday but is neglecting his legacy building fights.

Ive always said I dont like how Serg continues to call the names of the May, Pac, and even Cotto,..even though he can make the weight Im sure he is just to big IMO.

If yall remember correctly Williams was doing the same thing..but he was too dangerous, too big and frankly not worth it money wise..

Im just saying, there are so many more fights that can be made NORTH that can push you into super stardom why keep banking on two guys who may be close to retirement anyway?

checkleft
I don't get it. What fights north can he take that would launch him into super stardom? All of the guys north of him are looking for that same opportunity lol their is NO fight at 168 (or a catchweight in between) that's launching anyone into super stardom. And besides ward and maybe Abraham he's giving up too much reach and probably weight come fight night. That's why i don't get why everyone tells him to go up he's just gonna be doing the same thing he's doing right now but with more risk and the same reward, fighting bigger guys in little known divisions (to casual fans) and getting no respect or publicity if he wins.

Personally I don't care that he's chasing a pay day, he deserves it. The guy takes tough fight after fight, but I would have liked to see him face Lara maybe even pirog just so he can get that fight over with because I think people are overhyping him more than anyone in the division. But like I said before after this little fight off I hear he's planning in Argentina I would love to see him fight either the winner of geale sturm or golovkin pirog which I think. But I'm pretty sure I know how that's gonna pan out. "You come to (type in foreign country here) because I don't want to go the US to get robbed, so we will fight in my country so you can probably get robbed unless you knock me out".
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 2 2012, 11:58 AM) *
I don't get it. What fights north can he take that would launch him into super stardom? All of the guys north of him are looking for that same opportunity lol their is NO fight at 168 (or a catchweight in between) that's launching anyone into super stardom. And besides ward and maybe Abraham he's giving up too much reach and probably weight come fight night. That's why i don't get why everyone tells him to go up he's just gonna be doing the same thing he's doing right now but with more risk and the same reward, fighting bigger guys in little known divisions (to casual fans) and getting no respect or publicity if he wins.

Personally I don't care that he's chasing a pay day, he deserves it. The guy takes tough fight after fight, but I would have liked to see him face Lara maybe even pirog just so he can get that fight over with because I think people are overhyping him more than anyone in the division. But like I said before after this little fight off I hear he's planning in Argentina I would love to see him fight either the winner of geale sturm or golovkin pirog which I think. But I'm pretty sure I know how that's gonna pan out. "You come to (type in foreign country here) because I don't want to go the US to get robbed, so we will fight in my country so you can probably get robbed unless you knock me out".


Sergio Martniez needs to establish his name and make himself marketable ...

His "stay busy" fights need to be complete blow outs, not ones that create more questions than answers. As it stands, the big names arent even looking his way, and could give a shit less...

Sergio isnt "the man to beat"... hes the "man to avoid"...Do your thing within you division, knock out or completely out class the man who your promoter puts in front of you.. create a veil of invinsibilty about yourself and make the big names say "damn I gott beat this dude".. quit crying a fucking river cuz you dont get the Pacs and Mays...

My point about him moving north was simple. But appearently not for simple people.. Serg has the frame to move into a fight the Wards, Frochs, ect.. the sky is the limit with this guy. I do like the fact he wants to fight Chavez and I see him winning that ..
Cshel86
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Jun 2 2012, 02:32 PM) *
Sergio Martniez needs to establish his name and make himself marketable ...

His "stay busy" fights need to be complete blow outs, not ones that create more questions than answers. As it stands, the big names arent even looking his way, and could give a shit less...

Sergio isnt "the man to beat"... hes the "man to avoid"...Do your thing within you division, knock out or completely out class the man who your promoter puts in front of you.. create a veil of invinsibilty about yourself and make the big names say "damn I gott beat this dude".. quit crying a fucking river cuz you dont get the Pacs and Mays...

My point about him moving north was simple. But appearently not for simple people.. Serg has the frame to move into a fight the Wards, Frochs, ect.. the sky is the limit with this guy. I do like the fact he wants to fight Chavez and I see him winning that ..

I absolutely agree! Martinez has failed to make himself marketable, but hell, we can blame that on his team. He's too damn big for the Top 2, and it's funny how he cant decide if he's a MW or JWM when Mayweather's name is brought up, but yet, Kirkland's name was brought up, and Sergio said that James would have to come up to 160. laugh.gif

Chavez wont be as easy as Sergio nuthuggers have made it seem over the years, since they were stuck on the Williams knockout. Too bad he's been sniffing Julio's ass for the last year about a belt, while making him a bigger draw than he already is. Poor Sergio laugh.gif
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 2 2012, 07:59 PM) *
I absolutely agree! Martinez has failed to make himself marketable, but hell, we can blame that on his team. He's too damn big for the Top 2, and it's funny how he cant decide if he's a MW or JWM when Mayweather's name is brought up, but yet, Kirkland's name was brought up, and Sergio said that James would have to come up to 160. laugh.gif

Chavez wont be as easy as Sergio nuthuggers have made it seem over the years, since they were stuck on the Williams knockout. Too bad he's been sniffing Julio's ass for the last year about a belt, while making him a bigger draw than he already is. Poor Sergio laugh.gif


+5...

And side note, the type of knockout that happen to Williams can happen to ANY fighter... Im not taking anything away from Martinez, it was well earned.. but it wasnt a brutal beatdown and the fight was fairly even to that point IMO
Cshel86
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Jun 2 2012, 09:07 PM) *
+5...

And side note, the type of knockout that happen to Williams can happen to ANY fighter... Im not taking anything away from Martinez, it was well earned.. but it wasnt a brutal beatdown and the fight was fairly even to that point IMO

Exactly! It was early in the fight and its possible that he was still a bit too relaxed and got caught cold. It happens...
checkleft
I don't even look at the Williams fight as his breakout. I thought he took the first Williams fight when I really became a fan was the Pavlic fight. The second Williams fight I thought he would win not comfortably anyway.

Idk how much more you guys want Martinez to "blow them out of the water" his been knocking everyone out.
Chavez would not be an easy fight, he has a weight advantage height and can take a punch, I still don't think he can beat Martinez right now though.
He should definitely look for a fight with the winners of those European bouts getting signed

It would be hella funny though if they shut him put and he ends up like pirog looking for a fight with him
Franchize
Regardless of whether anyone think Sergio is legit, he undoubtedly has cemented himself as the best middleweight out there resume wise. For that reason alone, he deserves more marquee fights. My only problem with Sergio is that he should be embarassing guys while he waits for his shot. The more he steamrolls opponents, the more the public becomes outraged. Nobody started saying Floyd was ducking Manny until Manny started annihilating guys. But when he had that close fight with Marquez, the outrage died down. Sergio should be fighting big names who are easy to hit. Easy tol ook good against like Kelly Pavlik (who ppl forget Merchant said would end up one of the greatest middlweights of all time lol) Go out there and beat up on guys like Kirkland and K9. If he keeps fighting these guys who are quality boxers, the casual fan doesnt see a guy who beat a quality opponent. They see Sergio in a close fight against guys they dont even know.
sduck
Sergio is a good fighter and the top middleweight. I just don't think he's as good as people make him out to be.
Cshel86
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 3 2012, 03:08 AM) *
He should definitely look for a fight with the winners of those European bouts getting signed

If you're referring to Sergio doing this, then that's his problem now. His management/promoter has done him no favors by putting him in there against these relatively unknown foreign fighters.

They should be putting Sergio in there with guys like Mayorga (dig 'em up), try to get a Margarito fight (if possible), Felix Sturm, or Jermain Taylor. These "fantasy fights" that guys are coming up with, will only make the hardcore fan happy, and not help Sergio's pockets.

He's too busy chasing Julio for a belt that was taken from him, while Julio keeps stealing all of the remaining fights in the division. All Julio will do is vacate that title, so Sergio can have it back, and then what?
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Jun 2 2012, 08:07 PM) *
+5...

And side note, the type of knockout that happen to Williams can happen to ANY fighter... Im not taking anything away from Martinez, it was well earned.. but it wasnt a brutal beatdown and the fight was fairly even to that point IMO


i think ur minimizing what sergio did to williams. he didn't close his eyes and just throw a shot....he set that up perfectly. and to do so under the fire williams was putting on him was very impressive. williams was avoided for good reason. no one was calling out williams prior to that or even after...and now...no one is calling out sergio. i think pirog and quillen are the only two guys that have mentioned his name. i'd love to see the pirog fight to unify. quillen ain't ready for sergio.

also...let's not act like sergio ain't doing what he's supposed to with his opposition. he's stopped his last 4 opponents who had a combined record of 127-4. that is pretty damn impressive when u consider all of those guys were young up and coming fighters not retreads. his loss to williams was a respectable one. his win over pavlik was an upset win....and he should have been given a stoppage win against cintron. there's no need to rematch margarito at this point. he'd murder margarito.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 4 2012, 02:09 PM) *
i think ur minimizing what sergio did to williams. he didn't close his eyes and just throw a shot....he set that up perfectly. and to do so under the fire williams was putting on him was very impressive. williams was avoided for good reason. no one was calling out williams prior to that or even after...and now...no one is calling out sergio. i think pirog and quillen are the only two guys that have mentioned his name. i'd love to see the pirog fight to unify. quillen ain't ready for sergio.

also...let's not act like sergio ain't doing what he's supposted to with his opposition. he's stopped his last 4 opponents who had a combined record of 127-4. that is pretty damn impressive when u consider all of those guys were young up and coming fighters not retreads. his loss to williams was a respectable one. his win over pavlik was an upset win....and he should have been given a stoppage win against cintron. there's no need to rematch margarito at this point. he'd murder margarito.

Plus a thousand.

I hear people say he shouldnt be struggling with the guys he fights, idk what fights they are watching he's knocking everyone out lol
Cshel86
Let's face it, Sergio has been fighting sub par competition, whose new on U.S. soil, and had padded records. What's worse about it is, he's fighting the WRONG guys! People can try their hardest to give him the utmost respect for those wins, but he knows as well as us, that those wins have done little to get him where he REALLY wants to be.

A fight with Mayorga or Sturm would've done him some justice. He was able to take Paul's punches because Paul was fighting at 160 lbs...I dont remember him hurting or knocking anybody down at that weight. Williams went from 147, to 154, then he fought Sergio at 160 both times, so he obviously lost something while jumping weight classes.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 4 2012, 09:19 PM) *
Let's face it, Sergio has been fighting sub par competition, whose new on U.S. soil, and had padded records. What's worse about it is, he's fighting the WRONG guys! People can try their hardest to give him the utmost respect for those wins, but he knows as well as us, that those wins have done little to get him where he REALLY wants to be.

A fight with Mayorga or Sturm would've done him some justice. He was able to take Paul's punches because Paul was fighting at 160 lbs...I dont remember him hurting or knocking anybody down at that weight. Williams went from 147, to 154, then he fought Sergio at 160 both times, so he obviously lost something while jumping weight classes.


mayorga, no....sturm, yes.

he stopped guys that had never been stopped before. dzinziruk was undefeated. sergio just recently moved up himself.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 5 2012, 01:57 PM) *
mayorga, no....sturm, yes.

he stopped guys that had never been stopped before. dzinziruk was undefeated. sergio just recently moved up himself.

At this point, names like Sturm, and even Mayorga would tremendously help Sergio. Mayorga could be a "stay busy" fight, but he seems content with waiting for Chavez, while Chavez fights everybody at MW. Instead of eliminating potential opponents for Chavez to fight, he sits on the sidelines looking crazy. Now, if he wanted to, Chavez can fight two more MW fights and move up...leaving Sergio stuck.

What was Dzinziruk's record like before he fought Sergio? Okay he stopped Williams, but anybody can get hit with a punch that they don't see coming, isn't that how knockouts happen for the most part? We all knew from the first Quitana fight, that Paul was quite hittable, which ultimately leaves you open for being KO'd.

Sergio moved up to MW in Dec. '09, so it's safe to say that he's a full blown MW. Im not sure he's able to go up and down in weight like he says he can, but hey, we all know that he's willing to do that for a Floyd and/or Manny fight.
mgrover
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 5 2012, 07:30 PM) *
What was Dzinziruk's record like before he fought Sergio? Okay he stopped Williams, but anybody can get hit with a punch that they don't see coming, isn't that how knockouts happen for the most part? We all knew from the first Quitana fight, that Paul was quite hittable, which ultimately leaves you open for being KO'd.

Sergio moved up to MW in Dec. '09, so it's safe to say that he's a full blown MW. Im not sure he's able to go up and down in weight like he says he can, but hey, we all know that he's willing to do that for a Floyd and/or Manny fight.


well i guess that makes any knock that happens when the other person doesnt see the punch pointless, you hear that everybody KOing people is pointless nowadays

you can say what you like about him, but Sturm isnt going to fight Martinez, I doubt any of the idiots with straps will. Maybe him looking weaker will work in his favor as he might be able to get a fight.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 5 2012, 01:30 PM) *
What was Dzinziruk's record like before he fought Sergio? Okay he stopped Williams, but anybody can get hit with a punch that they don't see coming, isn't that how knockouts happen for the most part? We all knew from the first Quitana fight, that Paul was quite hittable, which ultimately leaves you open for being KO'd.

Sergio moved up to MW in Dec. '09, so it's safe to say that he's a full blown MW. Im not sure he's able to go up and down in weight like he says he can, but hey, we all know that he's willing to do that for a Floyd and/or Manny fight.


dzinziruk was 37-0 when sergio stopped him.

that one punch was set up beautifully. he attempted it about 7 or 8 times before it landed flush. each time he missed, he went right back to setting it back up. paul and his corner should have known it was coming. there was no adjustment...just more of the same. it was hard for me to watch....but i have to admit, it was a brilliant set up. i loved paul's kamikaze style...but pressuring a guy like martinez was the wrong plan. if u go back and watch their first fight...pressuring martinez is what got paul dropped in their first fight. when he sat back and boxed and forced martinez to come to him, that fight turned around. when paul tried to finish it strong by taking the fight back to martinez, he made it closer. i had paul winning the first fight by a very narrow margin. if he had repeated what he did in the middle rounds of the first fight...i think paul would have beat martinez in the rematch.
Franchize
I think Sergio has fought enough talented competiton to where he can take the biggest name available for his next gig. Fuck it. Go fight Magarito. He sells tickets. Fight Cotto. Fight Ortiz. Fight Kirkland.

Fighting these guys who are very talented but very overlooked in the media's eye is a lose lose situation. You'r putting yourself at a serious risk for guys who won't bring in many USA fans.

N while youre at it, learn English better so you can start calling guys out. Nobody gets hyped about a good ole fashioned call out if Jerry Ayala has to translate it.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 5 2012, 02:40 PM) *
dzinziruk was 37-0 when sergio stopped him.

that one punch was set up beautifully. he attempted it about 7 or 8 times before it landed flush. each time he missed, he went right back to setting it back up. paul and his corner should have known it was coming. there was no adjustment...just more of the same. it was hard for me to watch....but i have to admit, it was a brilliant set up. i loved paul's kamikaze style...but pressuring a guy like martinez was the wrong plan. if u go back and watch their first fight...pressuring martinez is what got paul dropped in their first fight. when he sat back and boxed and forced martinez to come to him, that fight turned around. when paul tried to finish it strong by taking the fight back to martinez, he made it closer. i had paul winning the first fight by a very narrow margin. if he had repeated what he did in the middle rounds of the first fight...i think paul would have beat martinez in the rematch.

Very true. Martinez does set up his punches
Right before he kod Williams he hit him about four times with tge exact same punch in the first round. When they got in the Exchange at the end of round one on the ropes I thought he was gonna knock pauls head off, I still didn't see the ko coming.
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