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Jack 1000
Fightnews has a model of the scoring break-down as to how it looked after rounds 4 and 8 if the optional WBC Open Scoring System had been in effect:

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/bradley-pa...analysis-118029

I still don't see how Open Scoring would lead to better judging, but I've covered those reasons before. The 4th and 8th round breakdown shows the following:

1) In only 6 of the 12 rounds, did the judges agree on a winner. (Rounds 3,4,6,7,10,12
2.) There was disagreement on the part of the judges in 50% of the rounds, (Rounds 1,2,5,8,9,11)
3.) Judge CJ Ross was the only judge who was never the "lone wolf" in scoring each round. (In all cases, her vote was the same as the other judges.)
4.) All three judges had Pacquaio ahead after 4 rounds (39-37.)
5.) Duanne Ford was the "lone wolf" in four rounds, (1,2,9,11)
6.) Jerry Roth was the "lone wolf" in two rounds (5, 8)
7.) Two of the three judges had the fight even after 8 rounds (76-76)
8.) All three judges scored 3 of the last 4 rounds for Bradley.

Jack
SUGAR
Bradley Won IMO.
pimpfighterROQ
How on earth do these judges decide on how a round is won?? Seriously, im still baffled. I know Pac took the foot off the gas on the last few rounds but damn. They should explain how they scored each round... After watching the fight again i still have it 116-112 Pacquiao. And that is being very nice to Bradley and very critical of Manny in the past few rounds. Couldve been 117-111 as well.

This is on par with Rios Abril fight...funny that its both Top Rank fights. Oh my oh my...
Cshel86
Im watching the fight again, and these commentators are fuckin' pitiful, smh. I swear, Lampley is the worst fuckin' commentator in the history of the sport. For Steward to be a trainer, you would think his perspective would be better, but his shit it just as bad. WTF?

Does anybody find it funny that Bradley wasn't lumped up and bleeding after the fight? You would think so, as evidenced by all of the "BIG LEFT HAND BY PACQUAIO" comments by Lampley. They kept crying about Manny being "too powerful", but again, Bradley wasn't all that hurt during the fight, bleeding or lumped up, never retreated, and he never went down.

As I watch this fight again, it's looking a bit closer than one would call it. I mean seriously, I doing the whole slow motion approach, and a lot of these damn Pacquaio punches aren't landing. He started doing that stupid foot shuffle at the end of the 10th, when he got frustrated.

Look closely at the 9th-12th and see that Bradley controlled the pace, pressed the action, avoided punches, and made Manny get wild. It's funny how people are able to accept Marquez being robbed because "he stepped off of the gas" in the last few rounds, but when Pacquiao stepped off of the gas and loses...it's a robbery and people are losing sleep over it.
mgrover
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 10 2012, 07:50 PM) *
Im watching the fight again, and these commentators are fuckin' pitiful, smh. I swear, Lampley is the worst fuckin' commentator in the history of the sport. For Steward to be a trainer, you would think his perspective would be better, but his shit it just as bad. WTF?

Does anybody find it funny that Bradley wasn't lumped up and bleeding after the fight? You would think so, as evidenced by all of the "BIG LEFT HAND BY PACQUAIO" comments by Lampley. They kept crying about Manny being "too powerful", but again, Bradley wasn't all that hurt during the fight, bleeding or lumped up, never retreated, and he never went down.

As I watch this fight again, it's looking a bit closer than one would call it. I mean seriously, I doing the whole slow motion approach, and a lot of these damn Pacquaio punches aren't landing. He started doing that stupid foot shuffle at the end of the 10th, when he got frustrated.

Look closely at the 9th-12th and see that Bradley controlled the pace, pressed the action, avoided punches, and made Manny get wild. It's funny how people are able to accept Marquez being robbed because "he stepped off of the gas" in the last few rounds, but when Pacquiao stepped off of the gas and loses...it's a robbery and people are losing sleep over it.


its mostly because were all pactards...

but more to the point of simple maths that even if bradley took the last 3 rounds it wouldnt of been enough to win.
checkleft
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 10 2012, 11:34 AM) *
I agree!


Wow, I think I need a new set of eyes, if Bradley outboxed Manny. Honestly, there wasn't much boxing going on in this fight. I agree, Timmy boxed in the middle rounds instead of going into survival mode, but again...not much boxing went on in this fight. Where were you throughout the build-up of this fight? I was expecting you to stick around.


I love when you drop these gems sir! I just put my hand on my chin and looked to the sky, hmmm...


Exactly, if bradley outboxed manny marquez shut him out. This shouldnt even be a discussion, people should be more worried about what they should do to fight this shit.
mitukczuk
My two cents.

I have seen the fight twice now and I am far from done with it.

Pacquiao won it for sure and i gave bradley 4 rounds and 1 I got even.

Things I noticed - Both are wild and uncoordinated as shit !!! Terrible to look at...
- Manny did look better than in his last two fights, but certainly not by tooo much...
- HBO commentators are nutt huggers
- Bradley has got a big heart and he is a champion material - both legs fucked up, got rocked like 100 times and still came to fight and refused to . go down and when he boxed he actually gave Manny some problems (any boxing used with ring IQ does)

All in all I am stunned by the fact they had started promoting the rematch before the first fight - stinks !!!

Arum didn't know which side to support. Blaming judges for all kinds of shit but later he praised Bradley as if he was his only love child. Made me laugh...
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (haqtiq @ Jun 10 2012, 08:19 AM) *
I had Tim winning this fight by 2 rounds. Me and the GF watched it live from www.toprank.tv, and you know whats REALLY funny, THEY (the TR announcers) had Bradley winning as well. I am so happy I didn't watch this on HBO PPV. 11-1 is total BS.

Manny did not look like Manny in this fight, those body shots from Bradley were fading Pac. He got outworked by the younger hungrier man, watch the fight again with no volume, or watch the toprank.tv fight, these guys saw what was going on, Manny waited until the last 15 seconds in most rounds to try and steal it, yet getting outworked in the earlier phases.

It was a close fight, true. But Manny winning no.

What I love, is how people think Manny just dominated Bradley... people were saying Bradley was going to get Murdered. What I saw was a flabby pacman, waiting on the younger guy to make the mistake he never made. Manny's fault. I am so fuckin happy the Mayweather fight is off now, because this Pac would get DESTROYED by Mayweather, no question.

If you think this was a robbery and will never watch boxing again, adios, I surely wont miss you at all.

Again, if you disagree... watch the fight again, count how many big shots Manny landed per round, it was about 6-7 big shots the whole fight man, Timmy was blocking and ducking most everything, he did get clipped, but most importantly he survived and fought back.

People seriously need to get yall boxing IQ up man.

BoxingStill#1
Welp... aint this a bitch...

I consider myself and unbias spectator especially in a Pac fight...

I can see everyones point on how Manny took his foot off the gas in the late rounds.. one would think thats the time for Bradley to pull up his boot straps and go after.. but see thats the thing,.. Only when Pac layed down for wahtever reason did Bradley have a chance, I just feel he didint do enough to capitalize on it..

Truth is, as most people who fight Pac find out, he felt something he really didnt like,.. he was sincerely shell shocked for much of the fight ...

Some of those punches Manny missed were designed to kill upon impact..
bnoles4life
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Jun 10 2012, 03:21 PM) *
Welp... aint this a bitch...

I consider myself and unbias spectator especially in a Pac fight...

I can see everyones point on how Manny took his foot off the gas in the late rounds.. one would think thats the time for Bradley to pull up his boot straps and go after.. but see thats the thing,.. Only when Pac layed down for wahtever reason did Bradley have a chance, I just feel he didint do enough to capitalize on it..

Truth is, as most people who fight Pac find out, he felt something he really didnt like,.. he was sincerely shell shocked for much of the fight ...

Some of those punches Manny missed were designed to kill upon impact..


A "bitch", in fact, it is, Sir.
sduck
I think I'm more upset about people's responses then the decision. People that say Pacquiao dominated this fight really need to re-watch this fight. Just because you land some hard shots in one round or two, doesn't mean you control the ENTIRE fight. Especially when you're mostly trying to win rounds by flashing at the end of them. People are acting like Bradley landed no good shots on Pacquiao just because he didn't have Pac's power. Look at Pacquiao's face after the fight, this guy has bruises all over his face. And this false discouragement about Bradley in survival mode or whatever, that's what I thought at first too, but if you pay better attention, he's actually just relaxed, and hes a naturally sloppy fighter so it makes it look like he's trying to get out the fight or however you want to see it.

I don't care if people had Pacquiao winning, I'm just upset at all these people that think Pacquiao completely dominated and controlled the fight, as if it was easy and he had no problems in the fight, because that's not what I saw at all, even some rare gems coming out and saying the same thing. It was a very close competitive fight that I honestly thought could of went either way. Most people had Pacquiao winning, fine with me, but he did not "clearly" win the fight. It was a close round by round fight.

I also don't like the fact you got people on here trying to insult people's "boxing IQ"

It kind of reminds me of the outrage over the Marquez fight when people at first acted like Marquez completely dominated the fight, and that wasn't what I saw at all, it was also a very close fight, that I understand how some people gave it to Pacquiao, even though most people didn't.

Usually I'm apart of majority opinion, but this rare occasion I'm one of the oddballs that had Bradley winning... barely. Sorry folks.
ROME
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 10 2012, 12:14 PM) *
I have NO objections to this post...excellent stuff! I will add though...does anybody find it funny that Arum and Team Pacquiao knew over a year ago before Timmy even signed with TR, that they were going to be fighting him? Kinda scary to me, kinda scary...

I like you analysis on how the fight played out (round by round). You're right, Manny only seemed interested in fighting for the last minute of each round. Even when he had Timmy hurt, he did seem disinterested in finishing. The fact that Bradley finished the fight on his feet, already spelled trouble. I didn't think Tim was going to win, had it gone to the cards, but shit happens (as we saw last night).

I noticed that Manny didn't catch Tim with that sneaky left hand that dropped Mosley, put Cotto on queer street twice, and almost killed Diaz. laugh.gif Anyhow, I still like him as a fighter, but no way in hell should've taken rounds off like he did last night, and fight in spurts (as they both did). Again, great post!


Thanks for reading through all that lol
And thanks for the opinion. I think at this point we all need to do as Max Kellerman suggested and review the fight without HBO's vocal influence. Perhaps it becomes a different fight. I still feel like from all the "work" that Bradley did, I can't seem to recall any clean effective punching from Bradley. Even in the highlights as the credits were displayed, none of them showcased anything Bradley did. I understand that this could just be effective editing on HBO's part, but of what was seen in those highlights I do distinctly remember those moments where Bradley took clean sharp punches to both the head and body. At 18% connect rate (or what ever it was), I just can't give Bradley rounds for hitting gloves, shoulders and air; even if Manny only lands three clean hard shots in each round. I never saw PAC's head snap back or even get hit cleanly, though he took a few body shots. Now it DID seem that from time to time HBO would make a big deal of punches thrown by PAC that may or may not have landed, but at this time I can't see it fit to make a case for Bradley doing anything other than throwing merely to keep Manny off of him. And he did this when Manny wasn't even really pursuing him, seemingly just in anticipation of Manny's attack. To me, when you have one guy do a lot of punching just to reach A target, be it gloves or otherwise, and another guy punching sparingly but with every intent to cause damage, I opt to favor the latter approach. That may just be a matter of opinion but it's clear I will have to go back and watch it maybe even a few times to reconsider what I believe actually transpired.
sduck
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 10 2012, 02:50 PM) *
Im watching the fight again, and these commentators are fuckin' pitiful, smh. I swear, Lampley is the worst fuckin' commentator in the history of the sport. For Steward to be a trainer, you would think his perspective would be better, but his shit it just as bad. WTF?

Does anybody find it funny that Bradley wasn't lumped up and bleeding after the fight? You would think so, as evidenced by all of the "BIG LEFT HAND BY PACQUAIO" comments by Lampley. They kept crying about Manny being "too powerful", but again, Bradley wasn't all that hurt during the fight, bleeding or lumped up, never retreated, and he never went down.

As I watch this fight again, it's looking a bit closer than one would call it. I mean seriously, I doing the whole slow motion approach, and a lot of these damn Pacquaio punches aren't landing. He started doing that stupid foot shuffle at the end of the 10th, when he got frustrated.

Look closely at the 9th-12th and see that Bradley controlled the pace, pressed the action, avoided punches, and made Manny get wild. It's funny how people are able to accept Marquez being robbed because "he stepped off of the gas" in the last few rounds, but when Pacquiao stepped off of the gas and loses...it's a robbery and people are losing sleep over it.

Glad you rewatched and saw some of the shit that I saw. That was literally the most biased I've ever seen HBO. They gave Bradley absolutely no credit in that fight. Pacquiao was literally a damn god in their eyes. I think everyone should rewatch this fight, and watch it closely.
Cshel86
QUOTE (sduck @ Jun 10 2012, 04:47 PM) *
I also don't like the fact you got people on here trying to insult people's "boxing IQ"

You too??? It was especially funny because some people that you hardly see, came out of the woodworks projecting a bunch of fluff. laugh.gif

QUOTE (ROME @ Jun 10 2012, 05:00 PM) *
Thanks for reading through all that lol
And thanks for the opinion. I think at this point we all need to do as Max Kellerman suggested and review the fight without HBO's vocal influence. Perhaps it becomes a different fight. I still feel like from all the "work" that Bradley did, I can't seem to recall any clean effective punching from Bradley. Even in the highlights as the credits were displayed, none of them showcased anything Bradley did. I understand that this could just be effective editing on HBO's part, but of what was seen in those highlights I do distinctly remember those moments where Bradley took clean sharp punches to both the head and body. At 18% connect rate (or what ever it was), I just can't give Bradley rounds for hitting gloves, shoulders and air; even if Manny only lands three clean hard shots in each round. I never saw PAC's head snap back or even get hit cleanly, though he took a few body shots. Now it DID seem that from time to time HBO would make a big deal of punches thrown by PAC that may or may not have landed, but at this time I can't see it fit to make a case for Bradley doing anything other than throwing merely to keep Manny off of him. And he did this when Manny wasn't even really pursuing him, seemingly just in anticipation of Manny's attack. To me, when you have one guy do a lot of punching just to reach A target, be it gloves or otherwise, and another guy punching sparingly but with every intent to cause damage, I opt to favor the latter approach. That may just be a matter of opinion but it's clear I will have to go back and watch it maybe even a few times to reconsider what I believe actually transpired.

Again man, I cant argue with you bit. Your assessment was fair, and covered all grounds of the fight. As I watched it again, Manny got credit for punches that never landed though. Just because a guy's connect percentage is low, doesn't necessarily mean that he lost the fight, per say. That goes for the Jones/Bailey fight earlier, though it ended in a KO, lol.

The same way you cant give Bradley credit for hitting gloves and so forth, is the same way that people shouldn't give Manny credit for lefts that didn't land. Those punches that Tim threw landed for the most part, but people ringside were so fixated on his "power deficiency", that they seemed to not have the desire to record them.

That's just like a guy that ringside observers aren't used to seeing take a punch, they usually give it to the guy who landed those unexpected punches. When it comes to the result of this fight, its obvious that Timmy needs to work on his power, rather than training to look like an action figure. Lol

QUOTE (sduck @ Jun 10 2012, 05:02 PM) *
Glad you rewatched and saw some of the shit that I saw. That was literally the most biased I've ever seen HBO. They gave Bradley absolutely no credit in that fight. Pacquiao was literally a damn god in their eyes. I think everyone should rewatch this fight, and watch it closely.

I was disgusted as well. For a while, I've been hoping that Showtime was able to front the big money to sway the megafight in their favor, rather than HBO having the shit in the bag, and pushing all of these fuckin' agendas. Really man, had HBO not had the megafight in the bag, they would be a bit more humble about their commentary and the fights that they air. Bunch of fuckin' scumbags...
haqtiq
QUOTE (sduck @ Jun 10 2012, 04:47 PM) *
I think I'm more upset about people's responses then the decision. People that say Pacquiao dominated this fight really need to re-watch this fight. Just because you land some hard shots in one round or two, doesn't mean you control the ENTIRE fight. Especially when you're mostly trying to win rounds by flashing at the end of them. People are acting like Bradley landed no good shots on Pacquiao just because he didn't have Pac's power. Look at Pacquiao's face after the fight, this guy has bruises all over his face. And this false discouragement about Bradley in survival mode or whatever, that's what I thought at first too, but if you pay better attention, he's actually just relaxed, and hes a naturally sloppy fighter so it makes it look like he's trying to get out the fight or however you want to see it.

I don't care if people had Pacquiao winning, I'm just upset at all these people that think Pacquiao completely dominated and controlled the fight, as if it was easy and he had no problems in the fight, because that's not what I saw at all, even some rare gems coming out and saying the same thing. It was a very close competitive fight that I honestly thought could of went either way. Most people had Pacquiao winning, fine with me, but he did not "clearly" win the fight. It was a close round by round fight.

I also don't like the fact you got people on here trying to insult people's "boxing IQ"

It kind of reminds me of the outrage over the Marquez fight when people at first acted like Marquez completely dominated the fight, and that wasn't what I saw at all, it was also a very close fight, that I understand how some people gave it to Pacquiao, even though most people didn't.

Usually I'm apart of majority opinion, but this rare occasion I'm one of the oddballs that had Bradley winning... barely. Sorry folks.


Ok, you and I both saw Bradley winning. Yet the vast majority of people are saying Pacman "Dominated", that to me is disrespectful to what Bradley actually did, and it insults not only my IQ, but yours as well. If I saw Pac winning, I'd say so, but after watching the fight 3 times already, anyone who says it wasn't close, or it was a robbery has NO "Boxing IQ". How else could you see it any other way? I don't mind defending what I say, because I have no problem backing it up.

Don't mind catching flak about what I am saying either, because after all I would be the first person in history getting ridiculed for what he says... right?
Plah
Saw the fight again, have it 6-5-1 even in Pac favor. It is NOT the robbery almost everyone is making it out to be. I have to admit that the first time I've watched it I scored it 8 rounds to 4, but if you watch closely, again, they both are missing, a lot. Pac compubox numbers are inflated as hell, and HBO nuthuggin' last night was at its highest. But I felt he won a razor thin decision.
mgrover
its not about nut hugging or what not, its just that it seems the only rounds Bradley took decisively is when MP took his foot off the gas, and then yes Bradley did seem to show some boxing knowledge, by fighting behind the jab, but like I said, it's not hard to look good doing that against someone who fora whatever reason slowed downed at that point in the fight. Whether he thought he was that far ahead? Or maybe he just doesn't give a fuck anymore, he really didn't seem to care that he lost, yes sure with his new found faith in God and what not, but still, a man that has not lost in 15 fights that shits gotta hurt if you knew you'd won. Or maybe he knew he lost against Marquez and thought fuck it. There's just too much bullshit to try and wade through, in the rematch Bradley will attempt to box behind the jab, depending if Manny gives a shit anymore or he decides to come and actually fight the entire 12 rounds, I see it could be more of a beating or stoppage.
un01
i think bradley's great promotion for the fight fooled top rank into thinking he was such a live underdog (5-1 underdog), which prompted crazy bets by top rank. they would of been damned if they let manny fuck the money up lol
Jack 1000
Top Rank Will Ask Nevada Attorney General to Investigate Scoring Controversy: No rematch till than:


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/boxing--pacqu...uane-ford-.html

Jack
pimpfighterROQ
I watched the fight again for the third time...I still have Pacquiao winning by 115-113 this time. Had it 116-112 before. I still don't see how Bradley could've won. But people are overexaggerating with this shit. It was no robbery but yes Bradley lost this fight in my eyes but the whole world needs to calm the fuck down.

interesting article Jack. imo Arum probably realized he shot himself in the foot by making Bradley win. Probably didnt expect the uproar this has caused and knows very few will buy the rematch.

I also find the article about Bradley and his foot quite hilarious, considering when announcing the winner, Bradley had no trouble nor pain walking around the ring and jumping after the decision. Also it isn't entirely fair for people to assume that how come Pacquiao couldn't stop a pegged legged fighter last night. In no doubt that Pacquiao isn't the same fighter he once was but Bradley is supposed to be the prime,hungry determined fighter. He couldn't capitalize on backing up Pacquiao nor take full advantage when Pacquiao was coasting thru the last rounds. Now he has to live with a controversial win and the world bitching at his victory.


This fight doesn't need a rematch. Oh and goodluck to Arum trying to investigate the scoring of the fight. Funny he doesn't do this on the Rios vs Abril fight.
checkleft
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Jun 10 2012, 10:29 PM) *
I watched the fight again for the third time...I still have Pacquiao winning by 115-113 this time. Had it 116-112 before. I still don't see how Bradley could've won. But people are overexaggerating with this shit. It was no robbery but yes Bradley lost this fight in my eyes but the whole world needs to calm the fuck down.

interesting article Jack. imo Arum probably realized he shot himself in the foot by making Bradley win. Probably didnt expect the uproar this has caused and knows very few will buy the rematch.

I also find the article about Bradley and his foot quite hilarious, considering when announcing the winner, Bradley had no trouble nor pain walking around the ring and jumping after the decision. Also it isn't entirely fair for people to assume that how come Pacquiao couldn't stop a pegged legged fighter last night. In no doubt that Pacquiao isn't the same fighter he once was but Bradley is supposed to be the prime,hungry determined fighter. He couldn't capitalize on backing up Pacquiao nor take full advantage when Pacquiao was coasting thru the last rounds. Now he has to live with a controversial win and the world bitching at his victory.


This fight doesn't need a rematch. Oh and goodluck to Arum trying to investigate the scoring of the fight. Funny he doesn't do this on the Rios vs Abril fight.

+1

Bradley looking to take some notes from David Haye with that wheelchair stunt.
mrchitown
QUOTE (BigFightFan @ Jun 10 2012, 07:41 AM) *
Why have you lost respect for Bradley? He fought his ass off, took early punishment, and finished the fight strong. I had him down 2 rounds in the fight but he gained a fan in me.


He flip flopped his stance. If you won say you won, he didn't say that shit in the ring, now a light bulb goes off between the walk back to the dressing room and to the post fight press conference and now he says he won and took it to him. Then he said he was hurt by Manny a few times, then he didn't feel his punches. Bullshit. I had the fight 9-3 for Manny, and I didn't see anything to justify Bradley winning the fight. What Bradley did is similar to getting into a fight on the block and showing discouragement (which I saw at times in the fight) and then walking around the corner and telling people he won LOL. FOH, I live in reality not wonderland. That wheelchair shit was funny to me, that's why I posted it. But that's neither here nor there because the real winner was that scumbag Arum, he got the outcome he wanted
mrchitown
CompuBox has to go, there has to be something new. Some other alternative to CompuBox because there numbers are ridiculous. I believe the number of landed shots for both fighters were inflated. And they can get rid of the HBO commentators while there at it. The nut hugging was on full display for all to see last night. Lampley has to be losing his eye sight, because his commentary is not even average anymore. He's calling shots that aren't landing and he's trying to be a mini Manny Steward at times too. Some of those left hand shots that he called for Manny weren't landing, they were hitting air

BigFightFan
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jun 11 2012, 01:11 AM) *
He flip flopped his stance. If you won say you won, he didn't say that shit in the ring, now a light bulb goes off between the walk back to the dressing room and to the post fight press conference and now he says he won and took it to him. Then he said he was hurt by Manny a few times, then he didn't feel his punches. Bullshit. I had the fight 9-3 for Manny, and I didn't see anything to justify Bradley winning the fight. What Bradley did is similar to getting into a fight on the block and showing discouragement (which I saw at times in the fight) and then walking around the corner and telling people he won LOL. FOH, I live in reality not wonderland. That wheelchair shit was funny to me, that's why I posted it. But that's neither here nor there because the real winner was that scumbag Arum, he got the outcome he wanted

I'm impressed by the fact that he didn't lay down or go into survival mode like Mosley. IMO PAC won the fight, but he also screwed himself in rounds 10-12 by not attacking.
Jack 1000
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Jun 11 2012, 12:46 AM) *
CompuBox has to go, there has to be something new. Some other alternative to CompuBox because there numbers are ridiculous. I believe the number of landed shots for both fighters were inflated. And they can get rid of the HBO commentators while there at it. The nut hugging was on full display for all to see last night. Lampley has to be losing his eye sight, because his commentary is not even average anymore. He's calling shots that aren't landing and he's trying to be a mini Manny Steward at times too. Some of those left hand shots that he called for Manny weren't landing, they were hitting air



I agree. I'll see the fight next Saturday and we'll see what happens. Compubox, I think creates more problems than it solves. I saw the the post-fight off of a BBC transmission on You Tube. They gave Bradley 10-12. I don't know what their final scores were. My concern that creates a general perception of a fixed fight is Bradley having those rematch promotional ticket posters printed up. That was not good. Because whether there was something going on or not, that type of promotion can have negative consequences. Speculation of a negative nature in society has a way of becoming fact.

Jack
Jack 1000
Just saw it now.

Not the blow-out HBO had, but it was a good fighter in Bradley against a great fighter in Pacquiao. I had it 7-4-1 for Manny with the 1st round even. I gave 7,9, 10, and 12 to Bradley. Easily could have been 8-4 for Manny. (116-113) Pacquiao.

Jack
mrchitown
QUOTE (BigFightFan @ Jun 11 2012, 12:46 AM) *
I'm impressed by the fact that he didn't lay down or go into survival mode like Mosley. IMO PAC won the fight, but he also screwed himself in rounds 10-12 by not attacking.


Your right, he was determined to give an all out effort and he definitely did that
mrchitown
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Jun 11 2012, 01:50 AM) *
I agree. I'll see the fight next Saturday and we'll see what happens. Compubox, I think creates more problems than it solves. I saw the the post-fight off of a BBC transmission on You Tube. They gave Bradley 10-12. I don't know what their final scores were. My concern that creates a general perception of a fixed fight is Bradley having those rematch promotional ticket posters printed up. That was not good. Because whether there was something going on or not, that type of promotion can have negative consequences. Speculation of a negative nature in society has a way of becoming fact.

Jack


If this is what we’re going to get from CompuBox, then they might as well scrap the idea. These numbers aren’t matching up with what’s occurring in the fight. And as far as Bradley goes, he definitely cast a cloud of suspicion over things. That was a bold move to print up a ticket and to print up that promotional poster with the Nov 10th date on it. He’s cast a cloud of doubt over himself, the fight, and the rematch
Cshel86
Im amazed at how Manny wasn't able to knock Timmy down, since sooooo many "big left hands" landed. He was able to floor Shane, but he couldn't do the same to Bradley. Let's not forget that Manny once again, was incapable of cutting off the ring, especially with a guy who had a hurt ankle (which was clear as day according to the replay).
Franchize
Pacquiao didn't look extraordinary like HBO was trying to make it seem. That was a gross exaggerration fueled mainly by Jim Lampley. Even when Bradley was landing, Lampley was trying to downplay it by either saying Pacquiao wasn't hurt or lying about Pacquiao landing something too. I get where guys are coming from with the HBO public Glory Hole that Jim Lampley had going on. Pacquaio was getting a blow job in the ring Sat. night but you couldn't see the face lmao.

That being said, he won the fight. It was a boring fight. It exposed two guys who were SUPPOSED to be top tier Top Rank guys. Their actual boxing skills looked horrendous. But at the end of the day, Manny was the best of the worst. Yes, he couldn't cut off the ring. Yes, he missed a lot. Yes, he swung wildly for the fences. All this is true. But Bradley stunk up the joint IMO. He missed a lot too. He also looked like his psyche was broken. He looked exactly like Shane Mosley in their throwing, as Manny Steward likes to say, jingly punches. None of his punches were thrown with conviction. He backed up the entire fight but he wasn't doind that to counter. All Bradley was doing the entire fight was getting hit, trying to duck, then trying to return fire to show the ref he's doing enough to not have the fight stopped. The Compubox numbers were way off but not by that much. C'mon. Manny landed like 100 more punches than Tim lol

This fight was a joke and just part of the monopoly Top Prank is trying to orchestrate. Arum, after the fans have been voicing their outrage, is trying to "seek justice". But when the scores were announced he was happy for Bradley. My boy pointed it out for me. This guy is a piece of shit and I will NEVER buy another one of his PPV events again (I didn't by this one. I coerced my boy into getting it lol). If he really feels bad about what happened, let the fight be on regular HBO. There are betting sites giving people their money back if they bet on Manny. It's the least he could do.
checkleft
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 11 2012, 08:54 AM) *
Pacquiao didn't look extraordinary like HBO was trying to make it seem. That was a gross exaggerration fueled mainly by Jim Lampley. Even when Bradley was landing, Lampley was trying to downplay it by either saying Pacquiao wasn't hurt or lying about Pacquiao landing something too. I get where guys are coming from with the HBO public Glory Hole that Jim Lampley had going on. Pacquaio was getting a blow job in the ring Sat. night but you couldn't see the face lmao.

That being said, he won the fight. It was a boring fight. It exposed two guys who were SUPPOSED to be top tier Top Rank guys. Their actual boxing skills looked horrendous. But at the end of the day, Manny was the best of the worst. Yes, he couldn't cut off the ring. Yes, he missed a lot. Yes, he swung wildly for the fences. All this is true. But Bradley stunk up the joint IMO. He missed a lot too. He also looked like his psyche was broken. He looked exactly like Shane Mosley in their throwing, as Manny Steward likes to say, jingly punches. None of his punches were thrown with conviction. He backed up the entire fight but he wasn't doind that to counter. All Bradley was doing the entire fight was getting hit, trying to duck, then trying to return fire to show the ref he's doing enough to not have the fight stopped. The Compubox numbers were way off but not by that much. C'mon. Manny landed like 100 more punches than Tim lol

This fight was a joke and just part of the monopoly Top Prank is trying to orchestrate. Arum, after the fans have been voicing their outrage, is trying to "seek justice". But when the scores were announced he was happy for Bradley. My boy pointed it out for me. This guy is a piece of shit and I will NEVER buy another one of his PPV events again (I didn't by this one. I coerced my boy into getting it lol). If he really feels bad about what happened, let the fight be on regular HBO. There are betting sites giving people their money back if they bet on Manny. It's the least he could do.


Best post yet. Other then the Rigo fight in which he was sensational the whole ppv was garbage. The mike Jones fight was garbage until he got brave and got put on his ass, the arce fight was barley heating up until it arce took the easy way out (yes he was faking it and I'm Mexican) and the pac fight showed mostly wild swinging clinching and a outclassed fighter who was hurt tired since like round three just throwing meaningless looping shots and an overzealous fighter trying to land one big shot for most of the fight and hitting air. TR is becoming a joke

Now bob is trying to save some face by saying he will launch an investigation. Pure garbage
BoxingStill#1
Watched this fight 3 times now,.... ive seen 3 ass whoopins from Pac...

Did he dominate? Physiacally no,.. mentally... u bes believe..

Bradley was game.. I scored 1st round for him, but barely, Manny nearly stole it toward the end....11 and 12thI rounds were his also, but again Manny rather deliberately took his foot off the gas or simply ran out of it. A couple mid rounds were negotiable but when Manny turned the heat up Timothy acted like a child trying to avoid the belt from his dad..

The closest score I can conceive is 8/4 Manny..

Did we see Pac in serious trouble?...
Did Bradley convincingly controll the fight and apply hie relentless pressure he is so well known for?

Also, since when can we say "this guy had more bruises and bumps than the other".. how many fightes have to seen ol alien head in and actually LOOKED like he took real damage? Compared to a guy who usually gets bruised up?

This fight looked much like the Cotto fight. But without the clear knock downs.. funny this is Cotto looked like he twisted his ankle also after a big shot..

Which brings me to this point,.. was the twisted ankle from hos legs getting crossed, or from him being hurt and trying to find his footing? Bradley said himself as he was reveiwing the tape "i stepped on his foot and twisted".. blah blah.. but didnt have an answer when he saw thats not what it came from...

At this point Im just rambling but one thing is for sure, it was a good fight.. I never implied Manny demolished Tim and think the guy who mentioned Bradley shouldnt be in the same ring shouldnt be allowed on a boxing board...

What we learned.. Bradley is as every bit as tough as advertised...
Jack 1000
Long (25 mins.) but VERY INTERESTING take on the fight in a calm, non-conspiracy manner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP3g-nnNmo...feature=g-all-u

Jack
Cshel86
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 11 2012, 02:39 PM) *
the arce fight was barley heating up until it arce took the easy way out (yes he was faking it and I'm Mexican)

I cant rock with you on this one Check...I believe Arce's injury legit. Anytime you get hit on/by the ear, or even sustain a busted eardrum, it fucks up EVERYTHING.

QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Jun 11 2012, 05:23 PM) *
Watched this fight 3 times now,.... ive seen 3 ass whoopins from Pac...

Did he dominate? Physiacally no,.. mentally... u bes believe..

Bradley was game.. I scored 1st round for him, but barely, Manny nearly stole it toward the end....11 and 12thI rounds were his also, but again Manny rather deliberately took his foot off the gas or simply ran out of it. A couple mid rounds were negotiable but when Manny turned the heat up Timothy acted like a child trying to avoid the belt from his dad..

The closest score I can conceive is 8/4 Manny..

Did we see Pac in serious trouble?...
Did Bradley convincingly controll the fight and apply hie relentless pressure he is so well known for?

Also, since when can we say "this guy had more bruises and bumps than the other".. how many fightes have to seen ol alien head in and actually LOOKED like he took real damage? Compared to a guy who usually gets bruised up?

This fight looked much like the Cotto fight. But without the clear knock downs.. funny this is Cotto looked like he twisted his ankle also after a big shot..

Which brings me to this point,.. was the twisted ankle from hos legs getting crossed, or from him being hurt and trying to find his footing? Bradley said himself as he was reveiwing the tape "i stepped on his foot and twisted".. blah blah.. but didnt have an answer when he saw thats not what it came from...

At this point Im just rambling but one thing is for sure, it was a good fight.. I never implied Manny demolished Tim and think the guy who mentioned Bradley shouldnt be in the same ring shouldnt be allowed on a boxing board...

What we learned.. Bradley is as every bit as tough as advertised...

I like this post! One part Im willing to dispute is the ankle injury. From the replay, he really did hurt his ankle after being hit with a good shot by Pac, that part I do believe. I cant even believe all of Tim's dialogue after the fight, since it seems to have been agenda in place...he was just sticking to the script.

If you think about it, nobody really looks good while avoiding Manny's punches. It sort of reminded me of how Morales was avoiding Pac's punches by swinging his head in the 2nd and 3rd fight (like Bradley did), but he was damn near shot around that time. Other than that, I agree with your post...
The Original MrFactor
I heard that after Arum, "seeks justice," he'd tackle the job of going after the "real killers," in the OJ case...
Jack 1000
What gets me is that noone is giving enough courage to Tim for fighting with a busted foot. I mean, if Manny fought 12-rounds with a busted foot, Lamply would have an extra pair of pom-poms and noisemakers to celebrate like New Years Eve. The real question his how Bradley might have done with two good feet? Maybe he could have won without controversy? Bradley although 95% think he lost, showed great heart in there. We didn't need to keep hearing from HBO how stronger Manny's shots were over and over again. What about Bradley's effort in the second half of the fight?

Jack
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Jun 12 2012, 01:48 AM) *
What gets me is that noone is giving enough courage to Tim for fighting with a busted foot. I mean, if Manny fought 12-rounds with a busted foot, Lamply would have an extra pair of pom-poms and noisemakers to celebrate like New Years Eve. The real question his how Bradley might have done with two good feet? Maybe he could have won without controversy? Bradley although 95% think he lost, showed great heart in there. We didn't need to keep hearing from HBO how stronger Manny's shots were over and over again. What about Bradley's effort in the second half of the fight?

Jack


Which is why I personally dont take anything from Tim. He went the distance and was still fighting in round 12. Win or loss, other than Marquez, Tim is Pacs biggets threat thus far.. good point..

Idk guys, this is the beauty of this type of fight,.. boxing may have took a hard hit with the decision to the general public,.. but to the boxing enthusiast, this is gold.. IT was a good fight and a tough challenge for Pac..

I would much rather see Tim fight Marquez this november and Pac challenge the winner.. in the mean time, (with easier negotiations perhaps see May and Pac)...

But thats in a perfect world...

Im gonna be screaming bloody murder about ordering another fight when I, personally, have already seen what I needed to see this fight..but come November.. Ill have another $70 charge on my cable bill..
Franchize
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 12 2012, 12:13 AM) *
I cant rock with you on this one Check...I believe Arce's injury legit. Anytime you get hit on/by the ear, or even sustain a busted eardrum, it fucks up EVERYTHING.

Yea I agree. The doc immediately looked in his ear and said his eardrum was busted. He couldn't even sit up str8. He kept leaning to the right. I think he was legitimately hurt. I got hit by a basketball once in my ear and it made my head, ear and jaw throb in pain.

As for Tim's injury. I saw the one foot injury. I didn't see the other. I find it hard to believe it was broken and he needed a wheelchair. I suffered from ankle problems when I was younger. I'd sprained my ankle 11 times before I turned 11 years old. My first day of practice in for my HS basketball team I twisted my ankle so bad it touched the floor. That being said, theres a HUGE difference between a sprained ankle and a fracture. How one eyed willie aka Joel Diaz knew it was fractured without an X-ray is either really remarkable or just hyperbole. I'm going to say the latter. His eyes are cocked like a pistol. In the words of the great Jay-Z, "we don't believe you, you need more people." I think they were trying to milk Tim's relentless warrior image to distract from all the controversy. They didn't need all that. Tim already put out there that he needed to go back and look at the fight to see who really won. Controversy or not, it isn't his job to judge the fight. I think they did more harm then help by trying to explain decisions that they didn't come up with. Give a brief answer to your gameplan, explain what happened to your ankle, thank the fans for coming out and then tell them how you'll be even more prepared for the rematch. End of story.

I feel the same about Tim as I felt about Amir Khan post Peterson popping for PEDs. Sometimes it's better to just STFU. Say your peace really quick and leave it alone. Sometime when you play the victim role the fans give you sympathy...sometimes they smell your bullshit!
Genius
I blame Pac's downs looking sons for this mess.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 12 2012, 08:55 AM) *
Yea I agree. The doc immediately looked in his ear and said his eardrum was busted. He couldn't even sit up str8. He kept leaning to the right. I think he was legitimately hurt. I got hit by a basketball once in my ear and it made my head, ear and jaw throb in pain.

As for Tim's injury. I saw the one foot injury. I didn't see the other. I find it hard to believe it was broken and he needed a wheelchair. I suffered from ankle problems when I was younger. I'd sprained my ankle 11 times before I turned 11 years old. My first day of practice in for my HS basketball team I twisted my ankle so bad it touched the floor. That being said, theres a HUGE difference between a sprained ankle and a fracture. How one eyed willie aka Joel Diaz knew it was fractured without an X-ray is either really remarkable or just hyperbole. I'm going to say the latter. His eyes are cocked like a pistol. In the words of the great Jay-Z, "we don't believe you, you need more people." I think they were trying to milk Tim's relentless warrior image to distract from all the controversy. They didn't need all that. Tim already put out there that he needed to go back and look at the fight to see who really won. Controversy or not, it isn't his job to judge the fight. I think they did more harm then help by trying to explain decisions that they didn't come up with. Give a brief answer to your gameplan, explain what happened to your ankle, thank the fans for coming out and then tell them how you'll be even more prepared for the rematch. End of story.

I feel the same about Tim as I felt about Amir Khan post Peterson popping for PEDs. Sometimes it's better to just STFU. Say your peace really quick and leave it alone. Sometime when you play the victim role the fans give you sympathy...sometimes they smell your bullshit!

You too??? I had a whole new respect for the Wilson brand after that shit hit me upside the head. I swear my head was swimming for damn near 10 minutes, like I had just got off a hellacious ride on a merry-go-round. laugh.gif

As for Tim's injury, I saw that ankle twist, and that shit will have you out of commission for few minutes, but I can imagine how bad recovery time can be when a guy is trying to take your head off.

Timmy should have just shut up, or at least sounded confident in the bullshit that had just took place, like Team Rios did after the Abril fight. That "going back to the tape and I see if I won" comment did him no favors. They said, "We won the fight, he was hugging and holding the whole time". Translation: "Stop fuckin' asking me about the decision. We got our ass kicked, got the decision, and looking forward to the next fight. Try to find a way to get over it".
mgrover
i dont even know why am bothered anymore, after a few years this'll be like the hopkins calzaghe match
Jack 1000
I had the same score 116-113 for Pacquiao. I would accept a wide to a close win for Manny, but no draw, and certainly not a Bradley win. I am shocked that Tom Hauser, a good boxing writer and historian had Bradley ahead, as did Brian Kenny. This has to be a misprint, but I read that Brian had Bradley up 116-112. I would really like to sit down with him and explain how he got to that scorecard, both Brian and Tom.

Now the fight WAS NOT the one-sided route that HBO pom-pomed it to be. And I give Max Kellerman all the credit in the world that we should step back and watch the fight without biased commentary. I heard Jim's biased commentary and saw Harold's biased scorecard, but paid no attention to it.

7-4-1, Pacquiao. Here is my round by round breakdown:

1. 10-10
2. 10-9 P
3. 10-9 P
4. 10-9 P
5. 10-9 P
6. 10-9 P
7. 9-10 B
8. 10-9 P
9. 9-10 B
10. 9-10 B
11. 10-9 P
12. 9-10 B

HBO ignored the good body work and lateral movement that Bradley used in a could have gone either way round 1, to a could have gone either way, 9-11. I think Bradley took the 12th. In fact, can't see how you could give the 12th to Manny. Flip that first round to Manny and it becomes 115-113 Manny, or give Bradley the first, Pac-Man still wins 116-112. I cannot see how you could give Bradley any rounds from 2-6. Bradley did well late in the fight, but Manny did better throughout the fight and close or wide should have gotten the decision.

Jack
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Jun 12 2012, 03:12 PM) *
I had the same score 116-113 for Pacquiao. I would accept a wide to a close win for Manny, but no draw, and certainly not a Bradley win. I am shocked that Tom Hauser, a good boxing writer and historian had Bradley ahead, as did Brian Kenny. This has to be a misprint, but I read that Brian had Bradley up 116-112. I would really like to sit down with him and explain how he got to that scorecard, both Brian and Tom.

Now the fight WAS NOT the one-sided route that HBO pom-pomed it to be. And I give Max Kellerman all the credit in the world that we should step back and watch the fight without biased commentary. I heard Jim's biased commentary and saw Harold's biased scorecard, but paid no attention to it.

7-4-1, Pacquiao. Here is my round by round breakdown:

1. 10-10
2. 10-9 P
3. 10-9 P
4. 10-9 P
5. 10-9 P
6. 10-9 P
7. 9-10 B
8. 10-9 P
9. 9-10 B
10. 9-10 B
11. 10-9 P
12. 9-10 B

HBO ignored the good body work and lateral movement that Bradley used in a could have gone either way round 1, to a could have gone either way, 9-11. I think Bradley took the 12th. In fact, can't see how you could give the 12th to Manny. Flip that first round to Manny and it becomes 115-113 Manny, or give Bradley the first, Pac-Man still wins 116-112. I cannot see how you could give Bradley any rounds from 2-6. Bradley did well late in the fight, but Manny did better throughout the fight and close or wide should have gotten the decision.

Jack


Spot on Jack
BoxingEinstein

It was all a ploy from the beginning. Arum knew what was going on. There's no way a man smiles in the ring as his cashcow lost a fight that everyone saw that Pacman won. SMH.....Just another way out to not allow Pacman to fight Mayweather. This man has a history of bribery and fixing fights. All he is doing is prolonging making money off of Pacquiao and all the while building up Bradley and he even stated of possibly having Marquez/Pacquiao 4. This is beyond atrocious the fight the entire world wants won't be given on time because of one fucking man!!! Pacquiao fucked himself and Mayweather warned him but he didn't listen.
Jack 1000
I just wonder if this fight was a conspiracy, could anyone give specifics as to how the pay-off changed hands, and the process that went down? You almost have to have a video tape or DVD of any backroom dealings going on to get a conviction in a trial situation. I think the bank accounts and any asserts or communications that judges CJ Ross and Duanne Ford who gave the fight to Bradley should be investigated. The joke is Arum himself DOING the investigation!

I mean like he's gonna have any incriminating evidence out there right in the open? WTF? I mean, corrupt he may be, but he's not stupid! I would also like to hear and follow specifics of what the Nevada Attorney General will do. I just cannot see any form of government being able to know the right questions to ask or how to collect evidence to prove wrong-doing. Arum and any conspirators will hide any evidence if such exists long before any investigators are going to know what's going on.

Jack
mgrover
i re watched the fight, i see a case that could be made for 7-5, but i still think it was 8-4 to pac. one thing that did stand out is how low bradleys head was when trying to duck constantly through the fight which am certain is illegal because some dude did the same in the amateurs with me and he got warned, yet i think the ref mentioned it once in a 12 round bout unless he was on about something else.

also there was a lot of punches missed that fight, i mean the compubox numbers just seem stupid, if a power punch is anything but a jab thats landed cleanly, its bullshit, round wise id call an average of 8 clean punches by each boxer. not the 24 compubox had MP on at one point in a round
Franchize
I just want to see what kind of trumped up PPV numbers Arum is going to lie about. We already know the live gate was just under May vs Ortiz. Curious to see these PPV numbers. I'm sure they are goign to be ridiculously inflated.
MaxPayne
If it's anywhere near 1 MM buys reported, you know it's some bullshit.
Jack 1000
Can't compare Pacquiao-Marquez III to Bradley-Pacquiao and here is why:

Pacquiao-Marquez III is not even a bad decision. It could have gone either way. It is TREATED as a bad decision because Marquez the underdog did so much better than expected. I thought Marquez won by a point, 115-114, but would have no problem with a draw to a two-point edge for either fighter. Marquez won his rounds big. The 5th was HUGE, and if Juan had fought more of the fight like he did the 5th round, he would have won on the cards of at least two if the judges. The problem is that Manny was slicker is many rounds. So we had a real coin-flip 50/50 fight.

Out of maybe 100 people, I have found AT most five who gave Bradley-Pacquiao to Bradley, I have lost all respect for Tom Hauser, who is a great boxing historian but terrible judge and had it 115-114 for Bradley. Brian Kenny had it 116-112 for Bradley! His respect just got flushed down the toilet and he needs to stop judging fights. That man should be fired from all things boxing for a 116-112 Bradley scorecard. He deserves to be blasted, and it is justified. Has Brian crawled out from under a rock to explain his b.s scorecard? He is full of crap.

I had it 7-4-1 for Pacquiao or 116-113. I think that HBO with Jim Lampley's pom-poming of Pacquiao and the Punch stats influenced the casual viewer into believing this was a blow-out. The first round was close. (Scored it even) and the 2nd, (Scored for Pacquiao), the 7th (for Bradley,) the 9th (for Bradley,) the 10th (for Bradley) and the 12th (for Bradley) were all flip-flop rounds, NOT the 11-1 119-109 for Pacquiao, unless you were really biased, which HBO has shown to their "star fighters" for many years International feeds had much closer scores. I will even accept Jerry Roth's 115-113 Pacquiao card, with reluctance as to its closeness, but at least he had the right guy winning and that's what's important.

It seems that THE GENERAL MEDIA and HBO gave Manny all the rounds because he is a star. But the judges said in their minds, we are not going to do Manny ANY favors because maybe they read on the Internet going into the fight that Manny would not lose a decision, and they bent over backwards to compensate Bradley by treating HIM like he was the star instead of Manny. Any rounds that were not total walk-over huge Manny rounds, were given to Bradley.

And regardless if Arum fixed the fight or not, or if someone connected with Top Rank did it for him, remember that judges many times HATE to give an undefeated fighter, especially a world champion, and Tim Bradley was a world champion moving up, his first loss. They don't want that "O" to go.

Jack
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 15 2012, 02:35 PM) *
I just want to see what kind of trumped up PPV numbers Arum is going to lie about. We already know the live gate was just under May vs Ortiz. Curious to see these PPV numbers. I'm sure they are goign to be ridiculously inflated.

I honestly dont think he'll truly care how much the fight does, though I wont rule out the "Top Rank Guesstimate" that we're sure to witness. If anybody has a link to the official Marquez/Pacquiao 3 PPVs numbers, then please post it. I believe Arum was in a bit of a tough spot when FMJ/Ortiz did that 1.25M, and this was the rubber match for God's sake...no way they were supposed to do less than exceptional numbers. He knew that the Mosley fight was going to tank, but for God's sake, it was Shane Mosley, a guy with a name...no way they supposed to do less than exceptional numbers.

QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Jun 15 2012, 04:52 PM) *
If it's anywhere near 1 MM buys reported, you know it's some bullshit.

Yep. Honestly though, Im still expecting anywhere from 700-800k.
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