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Gambit808
Few things you can't knock about this kid is 1st his record, his chin, his will to win, and lately his fan friendly matches. Love or hate that was yet another great & exciting performance... BUT... Am I the only one here that thinks this kid may be Juicing or something? I mean why every time this kid fights in Texas theres always some pre fight drama or lack of drug testing? At the weigh-in both Chavez jr. And lee looked exactly what the scale read (pretty much the same) with lee probably a quarter over... Then came fight night and he (Chavez jr.) looked more like he came to fight Chad Dawson instead of Andy lee. I mean did they even show his fight night weight? I must have missed it if they did but either way what's the point of setting a WEIGHT LIMIT for just the SCALE and NOT THE FIGHT?

I could be wrong but until I hear that Chavez jr. Has agreed to osdt then I could be right also.

But am I the only 1?
daprofessor
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 17 2012, 10:45 PM) *
Few things you can't knock about this kid is 1st his record, his chin, his will to win, and lately his fan friendly matches. Love or hate that was yet another great & exciting performance... BUT... Am I the only one here that thinks this kid may be Juicing or something? I mean why every time this kid fights in Texas theres always some pre fight drama or lack of drug testing? At the weigh-in both Chavez jr. And lee looked exactly what the scale read (pretty much the same) with lee probably a quarter over... Then came fight night and he (Chavez jr.) looked more like he came to fight Chad Dawson instead of Andy lee. I mean did they even show his fight night weight? I must have missed it if they did but either way what's the point of setting a WEIGHT LIMIT for just the SCALE and NOT THE FIGHT?

I could be wrong but until I hear that Chavez jr. Has agreed to osdt then I could be right also.

But am I the only 1?


well....he is fighting in texas. anything is possible. i also wonder about that whole glove incident. i'd like to see that cleared up or put to rest. i don't want to believe that there is something to that.
Gambit808
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 17 2012, 10:56 PM) *
well....he is fighting in texas. anything is possible. i also wonder about that whole glove incident. i'd like to see that cleared up or put to rest. i don't want to believe that there is something to that.

Exactly, I mean I don't wanna sound like I'm knockin the kid because he has come a ways and seems to be a ppv star in the making but he seems suspect to me, not only because it's in Texas but because of reports like the one you just brought up that makes me not trust this kids natural talent
daprofessor
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 17 2012, 11:08 PM) *
Exactly, I mean I don't wanna sound like I'm knockin the kid because he has come a ways and seems to be a ppv star in the making but he seems suspect to me, not only because it's in Texas but because of reports like the one you just brought up that makes me not trust this kids natural talent


all that extra shit is unnecessary. u either have it or u don't. i think he has it.
checkleft
He undoubtedly has potential but he's pampered. He skipped drug tests got caught on ped maskers and comes in 20+ pounds overweight on fight night. It's simple, get in shape or move up in weight and take your tests
Franchize
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 12:45 AM) *
He undoubtedly has potential but he's pampered. He skipped drug tests got caught on ped maskers and comes in 20+ pounds overweight on fight night. It's simple, get in shape or move up in weight and take your tests

He got caught on PED maskers? Really? I never knew that. You got an article by any chance?
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 18 2012, 09:05 AM) *
He got caught on PED maskers? Really? I never knew that. You got an article by any chance?

Here ya go...I almost thought this incriminating piece of evidence would be launched into No Man's Land, but I found it with ease...surprisingly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=4716150

QUOTE
Middleweight Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., the son of the former three-division champion and Mexican icon, tested positive for a banned substance in conjunction with his Nov. 14 fight against Troy Rowland, according to the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

Executive director Keith Kizer said Saturday that Chavez, who tested positive for Furosemide, a diuretic, faces a fine and suspension.

Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., right, won a 10-round middleweight decision against Troy Rowland last month. Chavez faces a fine and ban in Nevada.
Chavez (41-0-1, 30 KOs) won a 10-round decision against Rowland in the co-featured bout on the Manny Pacquiao-Miguel Cotto undercard at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Kizer said the positive results came from Chavez's pre-fight urinalysis.

All of the other boxers on the card had negative test results, Kizer said.

The commission filed a formal complaint on Tuesday against Chavez. He has 20 days to respond, which will be followed by a hearing at a date to be determined. If Chavez does not respond to the complaint, the commission may reach a decision in his absence.

If the commission upholds the test result, which it usually does, the result of the fight would be changed to a no decision.

According to the complaint, Chavez, 23, faces a suspension of up to nine months and a fine that could equal his entire $100,000 purse, although fighters are typically fined a smaller portion in these cases. In addition, Chavez would be required to provide a negative urine test before he's allowed to fight in Nevada again.

Chavez, a cash cow for promoters Top Rank and Mexico-based Zanfer Promotions, would be barred from fighting in the United States during a suspension. However, it would not prevent him from fighting in Mexico, where he has fought most of his bouts and draws big crowds as the headliner on Top Rank's series of "Latin Fury" pay-per-view cards.

"I think it was an innocent mistake, one that the Nevada commission will have to deal with, as well as Chavez," said Top Rank's Carl Moretti. "I don't think he knew diuretics were banned by the Nevada commission."

Dan Rafael covers boxing for ESPN.com.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 18 2012, 08:13 AM) *
Here ya go...I almost thought this incriminating piece of evidence would be launched into No Man's Land, but I found it with ease...surprisingly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/ne...tory?id=4716150



What's funny is Furosemide is Lasix, a diuretic, often prescribed to patients w/ Heart Failure. It helps the body to excrete excess fluid, but often at the expense of the person's potassium. I'm curious as to how that earns the moniker "Performance Enhancing"?
Cshel86
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 18 2012, 09:23 AM) *
What's funny is Furosemide is Lasix, a diuretic, often prescribed to patients w/ Heart Failure. It helps the body to excrete excess fluid, but often at the expense of the person's potassium. I'm curious as to how that earns the moniker "Performance Enhancing"?

I thought the same thing, because its easy to associate the term "diuretics" with "diarrhea". Here is another excerpt that i found about diuretics...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...0789.x/abstract

QUOTE
Diuretics are often abused by athletes to excrete water for rapid weight loss and to mask the presence of other banned substances. Because of their abuse by athletes, diuretics have been included on The World Anti-Doping Agency's (WADA) list of prohibited substances; the use of diuretics is banned both in competition and out of competition and diuretics are routinely screened for by anti-doping laboratories. This review provides an overview of the pharmacology and toxicology of diuretics and discusses their application in sports. The most common analytical strategies currently followed by the anti-doping laboratories accredited by the WADA are discussed along with the challenges laboratories face for the analysis of this diverse class of drugs.


According to the ESPN article, the substance was found in his "pre-fight" urinalysis results. Was he able to provide urine before last weekend's bout? Nope. Did he provide urine after the Rubio fight in Texas? Hell no. Did he more than likely NOT provide urine after last weekend's bout in Texas? That remains to be seen.

I also found this piece of info on how diuretics help athletes pass tests...

QUOTE
Diuretics

What are they?
Diuretics are drugs that change your body's natural balance of fluids and salts (electrolytes) and can lead to dehydration. This loss of water can decrease an athlete's weight, helping him or her to compete in a lighter weight class, which many athletes prefer. Diuretics may also help athletes pass drug tests by diluting their urine and are sometimes referred to as a "masking" agent.

Risks
Diuretics taken an any dose, even medically recommended doses, predispose athletes to adverse effects such as:

Dehydration
Muscle cramps
Exhaustion
Dizziness
Potassium deficiency
Heart arrhythmias
Drop in blood pressure
Heatstroke
Death
checkleft
Informative stuff chels
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 17 2012, 10:45 PM) *
Few things you can't knock about this kid is 1st his record, his chin, his will to win, and lately his fan friendly matches. Love or hate that was yet another great & exciting performance... BUT... Am I the only one here that thinks this kid may be Juicing or something? I mean why every time this kid fights in Texas theres always some pre fight drama or lack of drug testing? At the weigh-in both Chavez jr. And lee looked exactly what the scale read (pretty much the same) with lee probably a quarter over... Then came fight night and he (Chavez jr.) looked more like he came to fight Chad Dawson instead of Andy lee. I mean did they even show his fight night weight? I must have missed it if they did but either way what's the point of setting a WEIGHT LIMIT for just the SCALE and NOT THE FIGHT?

I could be wrong but until I hear that Chavez jr. Has agreed to osdt then I could be right also.

But am I the only 1?

Same here, Chavez's antics and failed/missed drug tests definitely make him a very, very suspicious character. It could be a coincidence, but the whole leg cramp subplot with him and the Saint could be yet another hint of "where there's smoke there's fire.."

I was surprised to see Martinez not ask for random drug testing. I guess he feels that his almost 40 year old self (clean I hope) is still superior to a juiced up, connoisseur of ye olde 8-balls.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 18 2012, 09:39 AM) *
I thought the same thing, because its easy to associate the term "diuretics" with "diarrhea". Here is another excerpt that i found about diuretics...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...0789.x/abstract



According to the ESPN article, the substance was found in his "pre-fight" urinalysis results. Was he able to provide urine before last weekend's bout? Nope. Did he provide urine after the Rubio fight in Texas? Hell no. Did he more than likely NOT provide urine after last weekend's bout in Texas? That remains to be seen.

I also found this piece of info on how diuretics help athletes pass tests...

"Leg cramps" FTW!!!!
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 12:45 AM) *
He undoubtedly has potential but he's pampered. He skipped drug tests got caught on ped maskers and comes in 20+ pounds overweight on fight night. It's simple, get in shape or move up in weight and take your tests


i thought he got caught for diuretics?
daprofessor
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 18 2012, 09:23 AM) *
What's funny is Furosemide is Lasix, a diuretic, often prescribed to patients w/ Heart Failure. It helps the body to excrete excess fluid, but often at the expense of the person's potassium. I'm curious as to how that earns the moniker "Performance Enhancing"?


diuretics are used to make weight....and the potassium expense explains the leg cramps. the kid is obviously killing himself to fight at a weight that isn't easy for him to make.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jun 18 2012, 09:39 AM) *
I thought the same thing, because its easy to associate the term "diuretics" with "diarrhea". Here is another excerpt that i found about diuretics...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111...0789.x/abstract



According to the ESPN article, the substance was found in his "pre-fight" urinalysis results. Was he able to provide urine before last weekend's bout? Nope. Did he provide urine after the Rubio fight in Texas? Hell no. Did he more than likely NOT provide urine after last weekend's bout in Texas? That remains to be seen.

I also found this piece of info on how diuretics help athletes pass tests...


good shit. i should have read through the whole thread before i posted. laugh.gif
flazi
exactly daprofessor. without the potassium you will cramp like nobody's business. Lasix is a performance enhancer. if you drop weight to fight at a weight class you probably shouldn't be in to have an advantage over everyone else cause you are way bigger come fight night then its a performance enhancer.
when i used to compete as a powerlifter, lasix use was prevelant as was pgcl to make weight. Guys would weight in around 220 but come the next day, they are like 240 or 250 while i competed at what i weighed in at. i would get beat all the time.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2012, 01:38 PM) *
i thought he got caught for diuretics?

Those are considered ped maskers as I said and peds as well since they allow you to drop weight so you can fight in smaller weight classes.
daprofessor
QUOTE (flazi @ Jun 18 2012, 01:50 PM) *
exactly daprofessor. without the potassium you will cramp like nobody's business. Lasix is a performance enhancer. if you drop weight to fight at a weight class you probably shouldn't be in to have an advantage over everyone else cause you are way bigger come fight night then its a performance enhancer.
when i used to compete as a powerlifter, lasix use was prevelant as was pgcl to make weight. Guys would weight in around 220 but come the next day, they are like 240 or 250 while i competed at what i weighed in at. i would get beat all the time.



true.

power lifter!? u ever compete at venice beach?
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 02:43 PM) *
Those are considered ped maskers as I said and peds as well since they allow you to drop weight so you can fight in smaller weight classes.


i saw that in cshells post. i forgot that aspect of diuretics.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2012, 04:29 PM) *
i saw that in cshells post. i forgot that aspect of diuretics.

I hope brandon rios isn't reading these, he might just find a solution to his problem.
BigFightFan
I'm assuming it doesn't matter what peds jr is on, Martinez doesn't want any extra testing. Are they both juicing? My guess is Martinez doesn't care what he's using as long as he gets a fat check.
Cshel86
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 04:51 PM) *
I hope brandon rios isn't reading these, he might just find a solution to his problem.

Please! He knows better. The next step for him is death if he tries to make 135 again.

QUOTE (BigFightFan @ Jun 18 2012, 05:39 PM) *
I'm assuming it doesn't matter what peds jr is on, Martinez doesn't want any extra testing. Are they both juicing? My guess is Martinez doesn't care what he's using as long as he gets a fat check.

Looks like you answered your own question here, with the last sentence. laugh.gif Martinez' best bet is to shut up and take the fight, but if his health means anything, then he'd follow his gut feeling...even at the expense of the fight being called off.
checkleft
That article on the front page was a interesting read. Good job by Emanuel to speak out but it might be a little too late.

I didn't notice the ring size on tv so I can't say anything but it sounds like chavez certainly weighed in 180+ and did skip his test again.
Franchize
Thanks for the articles Cshel. Very informative.

Unfortunately, I think Martinez desire to finally get his long awaited payday and crack at this hyped up kid will supercede any thought of him catching Chavez red handed. Cant say I blame him. If this fight doesnt go down, unless Oscar is brave enough to feed Canelo to him, he is gonna have a hard time trying to get that one big PPV before he rides out into the sunset. Anything short of Chavez coming in as a T Rex will most likely get swept under the rug.
Franchize
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 07:46 PM) *
That article on the front page was a interesting read. Good job by Emanuel to speak out but it might be a little too late.

I didn't notice the ring size on tv so I can't say anything but it sounds like chavez certainly weighed in 180+ and did skip his test again.

I kinda have an issue with Manny only because he didnt speak up when Merchant & co was ripping Floyd for the same concerns with the same camp.

As for the ring, I said it before the fight. It looked super tiny. Looked like an episode of the Contender. Absolute joke.
Cshel86
Im almost sure this dude didn't take a post-fight drug test...again. As Steward mentioned, it'g going to take somebody being toe-tagged after a fight, then heads will start rolling.

It's not like we're picking on this dude about PEDs, he's been caught before. It's crazy that he's having the same symptoms associated with diuretics (drained as fuck at the weigh-ins, leg cramps), and nobody seems to give two flying flocks of rat shit about testing him before or after the fight.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2012, 12:41 PM) *
diuretics are used to make weight....and the potassium expense explains the leg cramps. the kid is obviously killing himself to fight at a weight that isn't easy for him to make.



Which further reiterates my point...it isn't "Performance Enhancing". Dangerous? Yes. However, I can see it allows him to synthetically "make weight".
MaxPayne
A critically important point is being missed:

Diuretics are often used to mask the presence of PEDs.
Franchize
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 18 2012, 10:07 PM) *
Which further reiterates my point...it isn't "Performance Enhancing". Dangerous? Yes. However, I can see it allows him to synthetically "make weight".

But it is PED enabling. Its not much different from those pills potheads in the Navy take before they get pissed test. The shit that makes you itch for like a week. Essentially, it isnt the bank robber but it drives the getaway vehicle.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 04:51 PM) *
I hope brandon rios isn't reading these, he might just find a solution to his problem.

Ha!

Nah, diuretics have been around for a while in terms of masking PEDs.
checkleft
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 18 2012, 10:07 PM) *
Which further reiterates my point...it isn't "Performance Enhancing". Dangerous? Yes. However, I can see it allows him to synthetically "make weight".


V V

QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Jun 18 2012, 10:15 PM) *
A critically important point is being missed:

Diuretics are often used to mask the presence of PEDs.

+1

Idk how many times I've said the same thing before

also being able to fight a middleweight at a super middleweight/light heavy weight size sounds like its performance enhancing to me.
Franchize
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 04:51 PM) *
I hope brandon rios isn't reading these, he might just find a solution to his problem.

Real talk, I don't even think Brandon is a 140 lb guy. I think he could just go right up to 147 lol I think it's only a matter of time before 140 is too hard for him to make. Is is me or is his body very Baby Bullish?
bnoles4life
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2012, 11:52 PM) *
V V


+1

Idk how many times I've said the same thing before

also being able to fight a middleweight at a super middleweight/light heavy weight size sounds like its performance enhancing to me.


Check, I'm tracking and conceded its usage as both dangerous and dubious. However, my only point is it isn't "performance enhancing" and one of WADA's initial reasons for for banning it, was due to potentially fatal risk should it be abused. However, like you have mentioned, it's used as a masking agent, further solidifying WADA's stance against it.

Now, if anyone thinks that's why BOXING, is banning it, you're crazy. Boxing is of the belief, diuretics enable guys to unfairly make weight, not so much the "PED" advantage. I mean, after all, boxing doesn't believe there is a "steroid or PED problem", right? LMBO!!!!
MaxPayne
Diuretics are absolutely Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Using these drugs, you're unnaturally cutting weight, which allows you to compete in lower weight divisions against smaller guys.

Ergo, you're taller, have more reach, more punch resilience (you're fucking 3 weight classes higher during the fight) and greater power.

It may not be "directly" enhancing your performance, like HGH or EPO does, but it most certainly allows for tacit and unfair advantages in a fight.

Then why have weight classes to begin with, if the miracle of modern day drugs allows light heavyweights to cut to middleweight ?

It's also a huge problem in MMA.

Anderson Silva fights at 185 lbs., but is known to walk around at AT LEAST 220 lbs.

You tell me how a 37 year old man cuts damn near 40 pounds during training camp naturally, at an age when it's increasingly difficult to lose weight.

Easy. It's not possible NATURALLY.
flazi
QUOTE (daprofessor)
true.

power lifter!? u ever compete at venice beach?

yes a few years back.
daprofessor
QUOTE (flazi @ Jun 19 2012, 01:38 PM) *
yes a few years back.


nice!
Cshel86
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 19 2012, 11:15 AM) *
Check, I'm tracking and conceded its usage as both dangerous and dubious. However, my only point is it isn't "performance enhancing" and one of WADA's initial reasons for for banning it, was due to potentially fatal risk should it be abused. However, like you have mentioned, it's used as a masking agent, further solidifying WADA's stance against it.

Now, if anyone thinks that's why BOXING, is banning it, you're crazy. Boxing is of the belief, diuretics enable guys to unfairly make weight, not so much the "PED" advantage. I mean, after all, boxing doesn't believe there is a "steroid or PED problem", right? LMBO!!!!



QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Jun 19 2012, 12:56 PM) *
Diuretics are absolutely Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Using these drugs, you're unnaturally cutting weight, which allows you to compete in lower weight divisions against smaller guys.

Ergo, you're taller, have more reach, more punch resilience (you're fucking 3 weight classes higher during the fight) and greater power.

It may not be "directly" enhancing your performance, like HGH or EPO does, but it most certainly allows for tacit and unfair advantages in a fight.

Then why have weight classes to begin with, if the miracle of modern day drugs allows light heavyweights to cut to middleweight ?

It's also a huge problem in MMA.

Anderson Silva fights at 185 lbs., but is known to walk around at AT LEAST 220 lbs.

You tell me how a 37 year old man cuts damn near 40 pounds during training camp naturally, at an age when it's increasingly difficult to lose weight.

Easy. It's not possible NATURALLY.

Wow, good stuff guys! I cant help but to agree with both of your points. As Noles mentioned, boxing has this delusional and negligent grip on PEDs, and feels that "everyone behaves themselves" because they're professionals. This is the hurt business and guys know that they'll be forgotten about (or twice forgotten) if they lose a big (crossover or crossroads) fight...depending on their level of popularity coming into the fight.

It's also a known fact that this is a gladiator's sport, so appearing as if you cant compete in your own division (or higher), spells "fucked", and often pushes guys out of the picture. If you can cut weight and compete with (or bully) fighters and get paid to do it, then there's no need to fight at a reasonable weight and look shitty or get exposed for being such.

I dont really see the severity of them labeling it a PED, but if it masks it, then it's just as bad, I would suppose. It dilutes your urine, and since that's the only useless ass test that they perform, then it can indeed be looked at as something significantly illegal.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Jun 19 2012, 11:56 AM) *
Diuretics are absolutely Performance Enhancing Drugs.

It may not be "directly" enhancing your performance, like HGH or EPO does, but it most certainly allows for tacit and unfair advantages in a fight.

Then why have weight classes to begin with, if the miracle of modern day drugs allows light heavyweights to cut to middleweight ?


Sooooooo...we're saying the same thing, in this regard?
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 18 2012, 10:19 PM) *
But it is PED enabling. Its not much different from those pills potheads in the Navy take before they get pissed test. The shit that makes you itch for like a week. Essentially, it isnt the bank robber but it drives the getaway vehicle.

From the analogies that you chose, one word comes to mind...gangsta!

Things will get cleaned up in boxing. It's slowly starting.

Developments like the allegations by that utter moron Larry Olubamiwo in the BoxRec forums, should help to continue to shine a spotlight on the issue. The extent of his doping was ridiculous. I feel sorry for his shrunken nuts.
Franchize
I know you cant put too much stock in it but did anyone see the video of Chavez sparring Martirosyan? He was getting starched up!

Sorry, just realized the vid is old.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 22 2012, 10:54 PM) *
I know you cant put too much stock in it but did anyone see the video of Chavez sparring Martirosyan? He was getting starched up!

Sorry, just realized the vid is old.

Post it!
Franchize


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9INz2rIMukg
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 23 2012, 06:36 PM) *

Thanks.

JCC Jr vs. Martinez. Hopefully there won't be any last minute bailing out by JCC Jr.
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