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Cshel86
I have been bringing this up over the past few weeks in regards to HBO. Their whole "the megafight is ours" attitude is leading to their demise.

1. Public display of nuthuggery (that word makes me laugh every time I hear it)
2. Putting waaay too much stock into network fighter that they "believe" will raise their ratings
3. Bad matchmaking
4. Lackluster performances in overhyped fights
5. 24/7 series is hit and miss

What I've seen from Showtime as of late, is great fights. Not sure if Im the only one who notices this, but it seems like fighters on that network, dont have this big fuckin' cloud of fighting to "measure up" against the expectations of the megafight.

On HBO, you have guy fighting in this "delusionally competitive" manner, and hoping to shine since this IS the "mgeafight" network. Guys are either overmatched and end up not living up to the hype, or they fight so cautiously (with bigger fights in mind) that they put on lackluster performances.

HBO is hanging on to the whole idea of this fight happening on their network, and they're slowly killing the network. Mind you, I watch EVERY fight that airs, regardless of the station, but watching Showtime gives me this feeling of relief, sort of like the weekend...no more answering phones, working with idiot coworkers & customers, no more listening to the same shit...you actually have a breather from the nonsense.

One more thing, has anybody noticed lesser known guys becoming upset artists and bigger names on Showtime? Think about it...

1. Back in 2010, Salido was fed to Gamboa to make him look good, but he fought Lopez on Showtime and became the man overnight.
2. Josesito Lopez (sp) was fed to Jessie Vargas to help Jessie become a star (and almost kicked his ass) and was totally forgotten about, but got an Ortiz bout in Showtime and scored an upset.
3. Ward was overlooked on HBO, and got dates on Showtime...now look at him.
4. Quillin was overlooked on HBO, but got a date on a decent card on Showtime. He was supposed to be in the FMJ/Cotto card, but nobody wanted to see it.

Thoughts? Anything to add?
daprofessor
ward and his ppl actually decided to fly under the radar. they wanted to move at their own pace so that he could develop properly. that was thee best move they ever made!!!! hbo should not be in the business of developing fighters. that is a process that takes time. their concerns about putting on big fights and creating stars do NOT produce results. showtime has a "let the chips fall where they may" approach and it works. they, for the most part, do not have any vested interest in any one fighter....therefore, we get great match ups and the winners keep going. unlike hbo where guys like pirog disappear off the map for beating the house fighter....and guys like sergio martinez get second rate treatment while a manufactured guy like chavez gets preferential treatment. hbo is constantly doing shit wrong....listening to all the wrong ppl. how the fuck did thomas hauser get a job at hbo!?!?!? seriously??? what's next....dan rafael??? clueless bastids deserve the failure they have coming.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 26 2012, 02:17 AM) *
ward and his ppl actually decided to fly under the radar. they wanted to move at their own pace so that he could develop properly. that was thee best move they ever made!!!! hbo should not be in the business of developing fighters. that is a process that takes time. their concerns about putting on big fights and creating stars do NOT produce results. showtime has a "let the chips fall where they may" approach and it works. they, for the most part, do not have any vested interest in any one fighter....therefore, we get great match ups and the winners keep going. unlike hbo where guys like pirog disappear off the map for beating the house fighter....and guys like sergio martinez get second rate treatment while a manufactured guy like chavez gets preferential treatment. hbo is constantly doing shit wrong....listening to all the wrong ppl. how the fuck did thomas hauser get a job at hbo!?!?!? seriously??? what's next....dan rafael??? clueless bastids deserve the failure they have coming.

I remember a Ward fight that they covered a few years ago (I believe he was a MW at the time), and they showed little interest in him. That was the best move for him to go to Showtime and do things at their pace.

Their approach is non conducive, and they're paying for it. I like how you described Showtime and their "let the chips fall where they may" approach, there's no better way of wording it.

If you remember, Martinez ALWAYS received that underhanded treatment, as evidenced by his fights with Margarito and Cintron in the past. He didn't get his credit until he knocked out Williams, which he was somewhat robbed in the first fight...or that scorecard was just that damn bad. You're right, those fighters that they've vested interest in, have fallen short at times.

Donaire hasn't had a knockout since the Montiel fight, which HBO drooled all over and crowned him King. Chavez is improving, but the drug test inconsistencies have posed a black eye. Sergio cant get a decent fight to boost his career. The shit that's falling apart behind the scenes is beginning to unveil a bit.

I have to go back to the thread about Greenburg getting the axe, since I didn't participate in that thread. It was some good info in there.
Franchize
If Showtime's cameras were as good as HBO, and they had Michael Buffer, they could freeze HBO out completely lol Is it me or does HBO fights just come out clearer and crisper on TV? Soemthing about the lighting. Epix is the absolute worst in that regards. Also, so wat you will, but a megafight isn't a megafight to me without Michael Buffer.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Franchize @ Jun 26 2012, 11:15 AM) *
If Showtime's cameras were as good as HBO, and they had Michael Buffer, they could freeze HBO out completely lol Is it me or does HBO fights just come out clearer and crisper on TV? Soemthing about the lighting. Epix is the absolute worst in that regards. Also, so wat you will, but a megafight isn't a megafight to me without Michael Buffer.


it is the lighting. i recall one of the telecast where lamps or merchant said something about having twice the lighting...

i don't need it to be perfect. showtimes is just fine for me.
Gambit808
Fuck it showtime has been killin it with the fights they've been producing as of late, also having there moments in the past, but to me hbo is where the moneys at & they still have better quality of entertainment if you ask me. 24/7 rather "hit or miss" is still better than fight camp 360, hbo commentator though very bias with there views on some fights give you more to talk about (good or bad) Michael buffer vs jimmy Lennon jr. (come on son) & let's just face it these shows showcase the fight the fighters make the fights, so no matter how you look at it when it comes to fights, there are gonna be days where showtime's got it as well as days where hbo got it. U can find just as many bad fights on showime than on hbo. The only difference is there are more memorable fights on hbo than showtime. But this is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of buisness so I can see where cshel point holds merit.
Jack 1000
Good points!

I like HBO better for movies, but I like Showtime better for boxing. I agree with what has been said. Since Dibella left, HBO seems to have been told to "Pom Pom" a star, and they feed that star, C+ competition trying to fatten him up for a $50-$60 PPV. HBO aliens themselves with say Golden Boy or Top Rank, or Mayweather Promotions, and all of their fights feed off of their cheer-leading powerhouses. That's often why when a house fighter loses, HBO will throw him under the bug, unless they can work with the few promoters that they work with to match the star against the same promoter's stable to build him up again. I think that for several years, someone is telling Jim Lamply to cheerlead for the promoter's "favorite" son, because he never used to be like that 15-20 years ago.

If Lou Dibella were still matchmaking the fights, there would be less nut-hugging at HBO, because Lou would look for the best potential for action fights against the strongest competition. HBO seems to reserve all of that for the $60 PPV.

Showtime has the smaller budget, but for boxing, they manage to do more with it. Tyson and King's fighters used to be pom-pomed back when Ferdie Pacheco and Bobby Czyz were at the network, almost as badly as Lamply's crusades for the HBO house fighters now. When Tyson lost, it opened up an avenue of new opportunities with Jay Larkin more willing to buy 1-2 fights rather than the long-term contract that HBO uses.

Despite the nuthugging commentary, HBO shines in having such a long-standing tradition of family oriented people at the network, whom the viewers know and can relate to better than Showtime. People have a strong embedded 30 year tradition of the guys calling fights at HBO. And Lamply may be a damn cheerleader, but when thrilling fights occur and his emotional impact is justified, like for Gatti Wars, or Morales-Barrera's fight series, or the Boxing After Dark Shows, there's no way that Showtime can match that type of intensity and drama.

Jack
daprofessor
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Jun 26 2012, 03:27 PM) *
Good points!

I like HBO better for movies, but I like Showtime better for boxing. I agree with what has been said. Since Dibella left, HBO seems to have been told to "Pom Pom" a star, and they feed that star, C+ competition trying to fatten him up for a $50-$60 PPV. HBO aliens themselves with say Golden Boy or Top Rank, or Mayweather Promotions, and all of their fights feed off of their cheer-leading powerhouses. That's often why when a house fighter loses, HBO will throw him under the bug, unless they can work with the few promoters that they work with to match the star against the same promoter's stable to build him up again. I think that for several years, someone is telling Jim Lamply to cheerlead for the promoter's "favorite" son, because he never used to be like that 15-20 years ago.

If Lou Dibella were still matchmaking the fights, there would be less nut-hugging at HBO, because Lou would look for the best potential for action fights against the strongest competition. HBO seems to reserve all of that for the $60 PPV.

Showtime has the smaller budget, but for boxing, they manage to do more with it. Tyson and King's fighters used to be pom-pomed back when Ferdie Pacheco and Bobby Czyz were at the network, almost as badly as Lamply's crusades for the HBO house fighters now. When Tyson lost, it opened up an avenue of new opportunities with Jay Larkin more willing to buy 1-2 fights rather than the long-term contract that HBO uses.

Despite the nuthugging commentary, HBO shines in having such a long-standing tradition of family oriented people at the network, whom the viewers know and can relate to better than Showtime. People have a strong embedded 30 year tradition of the guys calling fights at HBO. And Lamply may be a damn cheerleader, but when thrilling fights occur and his emotional impact is justified, like for Gatti Wars, or Morales-Barrera's fight series, or the Boxing After Dark Shows, there's no way that Showtime can match that type of intensity and drama.

Jack


ferdie pacheco and bobby czyz > larry merchant and jim lampley

u can have the ass clowns at hbo. the only good thing about hbo is that they have the best fighters....but the matches themselves leave a lot to be desired.

i've had my fill of jim lampley and larry merchant. they are pathetic. if hbo really wanted to make a change for the better they would seek out bobby czyz and hire him immediately!!! he kills everyone at hbo behind the mic.
Cshel86
Damn, I need to go back and research DiBella's role with HBO back in the day. I had no idea that he played such a big part in the network. I heard about this matchmaking a couple of times, but now Im hearing it more often, so I'll check into it.
trickster
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 26 2012, 08:00 PM) *
ferdie pacheco and bobby czyz > larry merchant and jim lampley



While it can be argued that in the last 2-3 yrs sho has done a betyter job of getting good competitive fights, the above statement is not and was never true. Czyz could be OK but ferdie half the time wold be saying the wrong fighters name.

HBO always had better production. And back in the day of Czyz and pacheco it was sho that was locked into long term non competitive fights with Don King.

Lets not rewrite history.
The Original MrFactor
Great Post. I've been saying this for a few years now. Showtimes fights have trumped HBO over the last few years. the super 6 alone trumped HBO in 2010, 11. Now all HBO does is bank on Pacquiao and Mayweather PPV's. Couldn't they have made some better fights in the last year. How bout pair up your new starts like Alvarez, Chavez Jr with guys who have a pulse. Its time to step up. Showtime missed the boast on Bute/Froch, but they've generally have been spot on.
daprofessor
QUOTE (trickster @ Jun 27 2012, 05:58 PM) *
While it can be argued that in the last 2-3 yrs sho has done a betyter job of getting good competitive fights, the above statement is not and was never true. Czyz could be OK but ferdie half the time wold be saying the wrong fighters name.

HBO always had better production. And back in the day of Czyz and pacheco it was sho that was locked into long term non competitive fights with Don King.

Lets not rewrite history.


ok....how's this

czyz >>> merchant/lampley

pacheco is past it....and he may have got their names mixed up....but he actually knew boxing. i can't say the same for jim and larry. they have sucked hard since the late 90's.

production aside....hbo now sucks.
Hotsauce
showtime>>>>hbo
trickster
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 27 2012, 08:08 PM) *
ok....how's this

czyz >>> merchant/lampley

pacheco is past it....and he may have got their names mixed up....but he actually knew boxing. i can't say the same for jim and larry. they have sucked hard since the late 90's.

production aside....hbo now sucks.




Im sorry but pacheco didnt have much love at the time because he WAS past it, watch the tapes. and although I liked czyz he was also a fanboy. remember he had tyson winning against holy when he was KOd. cant get worse than that.
Thickback
I've been saying for some time that Showtime is showing up HBO. Larry Merchant needs to retire and never be behind any mic ever again. He can completely ruin a good fight with his expectations of "drama" in every fight. Their hate for Floyd Mayweather completely rutned me off to the team of Jim, Larry and Emmanuel. Roy and Max are the only two I can I like, although as of late, Manny has been much better, (and typically is better than Jim and Larry but joins in their hate trains some times). But the Nuthuggery is definitely where shit gets out of hand.

Anywho, Showtime's fights have more than lived up to the hype and their only blunders in the last few years is....

1. The presentation of the Super Six trophy to Andrew Ward....wtf was that????
2. Screwing themselves out of Froch/Bute!!!! That should have been a nationally televised ass whooping!!!! I had to watch the fight online the next day on my phone!!!! wtf....
trickster
QUOTE (Thickback @ Jun 30 2012, 09:08 AM) *
Larry Merchant needs to retire



I actually have come to like larry over the years. He is a blood and guts guy, thats OK. I think floyd is a little overly dramatic. If he answered the critisizm in a clear confident way he could turn it around. Instead he comes off as a self important child.

Jim at times is a good blow by blow man and certainly has the voice. As of late his enthusiasm for the house fighters has gotten the best of him. Someone higher up needs to have a talk w him about keeping his emotions, at least to a point, in check.

Every announcer has their strengths and weaknesses. Bernstein for all his knowledge of the sport can be a bit monotone and has always had the critisizm that he acts that if any fighter did exactly as he wishes they would have the fight won.
Jack 1000
QUOTE (trickster @ Jun 30 2012, 10:02 AM) *
I actually have come to like Larry over the years. He is a blood and guts guy, thats OK. I think Floyd is a little overly dramatic. If he answered the criticism in a clear confident way he could turn it around. Instead he comes off as a self important child.

Jim at times is a good blow by blow man and certainly has the voice. As of late his enthusiasm for the house fighters has gotten the best of him. Someone higher up needs to have a talk w him about keeping his emotions, at least to a point, in check.

Every announcer has their strengths and weaknesses. Bernstein for all his knowledge of the sport can be a bit monotone and has always had the criticism that he acts that if any fighter did exactly as he wishes they would have the fight won.


I think that Lamply's over-emotional love for the HBO contracted "house fighter" has gotten worse over the last 10 years. But remember that Howard Cosell who was never really a "boxing fan" got into boxing IMO because of Ali and Leonard. Howard's interest and followship of the sport for Ali and Leonard, is sort of like Lamply's pom-poms over the years for Delahoya, Jones, Mayweather, Gatti, and now Pacquiao.

Lamply's natural excitement for example in Ward-Gatti's trilogy and so many of the other Boxing After Dark wars from the mid 1990's- to early 2000's was Lamply at his best. Do you guys think that there was a point in time when the genuine excitement that Lamply had started to turn into House Fighter cheerleading? I think it probably began around the time that Delahoya was still fighting non-PPV on HBO. I can't remember the exact fight, but there was a post-fight interview where Delahoya was grinning and Lamply just looked like this "silly little high school girl that just got asked to Senior Prom by the football team captain when Oscar was talking."

But I still stand firm to the belief that when Lou Dibella was matchmaking at HBO, the pom-poming was OK because those original B.A.D fights were some of the most two-sided matches you will ever see! When Lou left, I think someone told the production crew that business-wise they could build up a house fighter to a marquee level, by feeding him lessor competition on HBO. The two-sided classic wars went to HBO PPV, and some of the not-so-good fights went to PPV because the house stars demanded it and HBO catered to them. Remember Delahoya-Campas? Or even the non-PPV but disgraceful Jones-Frazier farce? That was under Lou Dibella. I remember contacted Lou about why HBO would stoop so low as to show Jones-Frazier? And Lou was embarrassed for himself and the network, he said that Roy had a pick and choose contract for opponents that forced HBO to show whatever guys he wanted to fight.

Than after that, Roy left and formed Square Ring, putting his own fights on PPV which bombed. I am not sure, but I think Kery Davis came in around this time, and they got Roy back for more fights, or where those PPV just under the HBO banner? I can't remember. The point is that in recent years, HBO management forced the commentators to start thinking that the marquee fighter against lesser competition is more important than a two-sided fight against guys that nobody knows about. And to this day, (with few exceptions) they have kept that business model intact, even in some cases for PPV's.

Jack
fightscoreollector
I also think recently that SHO have been better than HBO. Al Bernstein i think is teh best boxing guy out there WHY?.....he doesnt need to be controversial or nuthug a home fighter.

He is honest and praises both fighters...if they deserve it.

We are lucky here in the UK that we have him for Channel 5 fights although i do wonder what he thinks of the set-up as the rest of the team i dont think are very good. Bernstein steals the show every time.
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