this is how i have them rated:

1. rigondeaux
2. moreno
3. mares
4. agbeko
5. donaire
6. arce
7. wv2
8. darchinyan
9. mijares
10. rojas

there needs to be some kind of tournament or something....let these guys work it out.

Thats an alright ratings. But i guess you have your perference. To me its Rigondeax A. and Donaire B. with whos on top. After that id put Mares or Moreno. And for the rest who cares, they are just retreads. No offense but Agbeko has no business ahead of Donaire. But i guess most people on here have there bias' against Flips. Anyways I'd love to see Rigo, Donaire, Mares and Moreno in a tournament.

You forgot Russell

But i'd have it:
1. Rigondeaux
2. Arce
3. Russell Jr
4. Donaire
5. Wv2

Cant comment on the rest as i havent seen them in action

no bias against filipinos at all. donaire has 2 great ko's against darchinyan and montiel....but outside of that he looks very ordinary. saw him struggle with concepcion, the undersized argentine who's name i can't recall....and vasquez. i think he's good...but nothing special.

i think rigondeaux and moreno are special and both are capable of beating everyone on the list. agbeko is there because i thought he was jobbed in both fights with mares...i also believe he has a lot left.

russell is very talented and will be on the list as soon as he faces a known commodity. i was very disappointed to hear him say he wants juanma next. i'd really like to see him face a challenge. beating a guy who's coming off 2 ko losses is not really a challenge.

I hear ya, but to each there own. I think Rigo and Moreno are good fighters maybe great but IMO Donaire is just as good and potentially better. Everyone that Donaire has fought goes in there with a mindset just to survive and therefore makes for a bad fight. His fight with that Argentine was a fight where that dude just wanted to survive and nothing more. And his fight with WV2 was good and he pulled that out like a champion. IMO i think WV2 has been underrated by people. Personally I think Rigo's wins can be hyped up a little and Moreno is a good fighter but i think Mares is better if given a chance but as of right now i'd rank Moreno higher than Mares. But overrall my top 4 are THE top guys in the division and a tournament with them would be great.

What are you smoking? Arce and Russell in the top 3 ahead of Moreno, Mares and Donaire? Dont get me wrong i love watching Arce fight as he is an animal and he never dissapoints, but Russell is just a contender/prospect. Russell does has some real potential but the dude is fighting girls/club fighters right now. I know its hard not to fall in love with his speed but fight someone with a pulse and then we can talk.

I like Russell, but the guy has no business on anybody's list right about now. If you have him on your list, then it's obvious that you're not as big a boxing fan as you say you are. No way this guy should be in anybody's top 10 when he hasn't even fought a top 10 fighter.

If you care to argue your point, then it's obvious that HBO is educating you on boxing right about now, which is blasphemy. As for Rigondeaux, I like him too and Im sure most of the guys on the list want no parts of him, but beating Kennedy and Ramos doesn't mean he should be at the top of the list just yet. Maybe around 3 or 4, but not #1 just yet.

Im sure Mares would cry a river over that #1 spot since he won that tournament last year

i'm guessing u missed the concepcion fight. donaire ran the whole time. he looked like an old camacho in that one. nothing about it was impressive.

quick...name me all the 2 time gold medalist u can think of in boxing right now!

or better yet....name me any gold medalist in boxing?

rigondeaux separates himself from the pack based on the fact that he is a 2 time gold medalist. i understand that his body of work as a pro is limited...but i've seen this guy in the gym. he is the truth. fighters like him don't come around very often. this guy has mayweather like skills with roberto duran punching power. it's only a matter of time before he cleans out the division. i think it's very realistic that he ko's mares, agbeko, donaire, darchinyan, arce and several others. i don't think u can make that claim with any of the other guys. his curse is that he is a black southpaw. they aren't usually received well in boxing.

oh yeah....mares needed help from the ref both times.

Well to tell you the truth I didnt see him fight concepcion. I guess you will now tell me he lost that fight and concepcion got robbed. All i know is that if Donaire is not blowing everyone away he is not impressive. Why are you so impressed with rigo and moreno so much more than Donaire? IMO the top 4 are almost interchangeable with whatever you like. But I think Donaire has the most potential. Rigo is a kind of hyped to me. His win over Ramos was good not great as Ramos was nothing close to special and his recent win over Kennedy was ok as Kennedy is a club fighter.

I dont get off of the Gold Medalist hype as much. Of course it means something, well...it says a lot. I remember this guy named Oscar De La Hoya, who was a gold medalist, but got beat by guys who couldn't remember what a gold medal looks like. I also know this bronze medalist who's the best fighter in the sport, did he ever grace a gold medal? I think his name is Floyd Mayweather Jr. or something like that, don't quote me though.

The list that made is a great one...well, you just made it clear who all looms in the division and you're correct, they ALL need to fight and settle this. Im sure Rigondeaux is better than he appears on television, but I will rephrase your statement above.

Being a black southpaw has nothing to do with it...being a Cuban southpaw is his biggest problem. He has an extensive amateur background (which most Cuban fighters do), he's a southpaw, and oh yeah...did I mention that he was Cuban? I dont know many Cuban boxing stars, and it seems to be a bit of a curse to be from a Cuban background...which equates to no fan base, which equates to...well, you know the rest.

I dont believe Mares has the resolve to beat some above fighters, we can both agree on that.

I think Rigo and moreno would eventually emberrass mares. No disrespect but I think they are just that far better skill wise

i think rigondeaux has the most obvious talent and his style allows him to take very few shots, its just I wonder what would happen if hes put in the ring with someone as fast as him.

while people are constantly shitting on donaire for some reason, no idea why but he does his job

no, he won that fight....it's just that the scores were much wider than they should have been. donaire does better when he has a size and speed advantage....when that isn't the case, he looks very ordinary. i've seen rigondeaux give up 20 and 30 lbs and totally control bigger, stronger, fast guys. trust me on this one....when the opposition steps up....so will rigondeaux and his skills. he's one of those guys who rises to the occasion.

being a good black southpaw was not good for winky, raheem, williams, casamayor and a few others. these guys weren't exactly sought after opponents. i guess they all have the problem with small fan bases. having over 300 amateur fights would also be a reason to avoid someone.

i've seen him with bigger/fast guys and it's like speed chess. he's still calm, cool and calculating....waiting for the mistake then BAM!!! he's lands the shot (or shots). i've watched plenty of great fighters over the years....he is something special. i would have loved to see him in the ring with pac. i can say with confidence that he would have schooled him.

Sparring in the gym is totally different than in a real boxing match. Most top level guys will spar bigger guys and usually beat the crap out of them. Im not doubting that Rigo has the skills. Im just not sold just yet. His comp. just hasnt been top level. If you continues to do this to the top guys then i'll get on the bandwagon. By the way you talk, he may be the best to ever live. Anyway why should I trust you? You just some dude on a message board. What are you going to now tell me you sparred him?

Good picks as far as the black southpaws. I was leaning more towards the likes of Judah and Spinks when I posted that. You make a good point though.

don't take my word. freddie roach had very high praise for him and said that there is nothing he could teach rigondeaux. he also said he learned from rigo. that's very high praise from a guy who trains pac and had james toney.

i've been in the gym my whole life and have seen some great fighters spar over the years. sure....sparring is one thing...but u know when its more than just sparring.

So since you been in and out of gyms for part of your 20'years of life that gives you knowledge that other boxing fans don't have? I've been in boxing gyms in and out for 25+years but that don't mean shit. I've seen some of the best that Sacramento have to offer.
Don't tell me you are one of those types that thinks because he has been in gyms he knows more than everyone else. For all those years that I've been in them there are tons of people who know more than me, and that's including the ones who never stepped foot in a gym.

When it comes to your favorite sport...NO ONE knows more than you...that's how it goes. Nobody lets up, it just goes on and on. I know a guy who played in the CFL (Canadian Football League) for 5 years and 1 year in the NFL, and he told me straight up..."I dont care if a muthafucka has been playing football all his life or retired from the pros...he'll never know more about football than me". Sounds like this is what's going here

So in other words your friend sounds like a real asshole. Im sure your buddy knows a lot but prolly trying to talk to him about football is prolly like pulling teeth because he's a legend in his own mind. I guess everybody can't have the humble gene. Lol

Anyways what bugs the shit out of me is when you have these guys who say they have graced the boxing gym and used to box so that makes them a boxing expert. I've graced the gym for years but I'll tell you the truth there are tons more people that know more than me who have never boxed. The worse saying in boxing is the "you have never stepped in a ring so you don't know shit". That's got to be the most stupidest saying in boxing.

I agree. I respect those who have either been through stages of life that I have never experienced or those who have gone further down that particular path. With that said, some do take that experience and put on the "expert hat". Not a knock against anybody here though...but I know a few people in the real world who act that way. I have the utmost respect for those who do things the long way rather than cutting corners.

Anyway, those phrases such as, "If you've never been in the ring, then you dont know the sport", have put folks in a fucked up mindset to say the least. Its mostly true, but who knows who has actually been in the gym or not? The phrase, "Most people dont know shit about boxing" has to hold the most truth, as evidenced by the conversations that we have on the board (good discussions) and most of the casual fans in the real world who actually attempt to discuss it.

Yea, those phrases has got to be the dumbest statement ever. And they are not true. You don't nessasarily have to step in the ring to know what's going on. It all about analyzing a situation. If you follow boxing and know how to analye things then you know what's going on. In court does a judge and jury need to have commiteed a crime to know how bad it is, or how it happened?

Anyways the other things that bugs me is this casual fan vs die hard fan bs. I've followed boxing for over 30 years and in the 80's and 90's was a true die hard. I never missed a fight. Nowadays I just follow fights the I think are worth it and I'll tell you what, it ain't much as i find boxing lacks heart, skill and true grit these days and lots of top guys don't fight each other? Does that make me a casual fan now and do the diehards of today know more about boxing than me. The way I see it, a fan is a fan. Boxing needs any fans they can get, casual or diehards. But to say a diehard knows more a out boxing than a casual fan is bs in my mind. And the saying "most people don't know shit about boxing" what the fuck does that mean. What is it that everyone doesnt know? I don't get it. Ever since that crack pot Roger mayweather said that lots of people throw that around? What is it about boxing that people dont get?

As i said, i cant comment on Moreno and Mares as i haven't seen them fight. Donaire is nothing special, Arce is a fighter and a warrior and i believe he is better than Donaire. Russell Jr has the most talent on potential of all of them in my eyes but as you've said he hasn't fought anybody, Juanma is a let down, i'd like to see him fight Gamboa or Mikey Garcia next

Yea I understand that you are in awe of Russells speed and Arces warrior mentality. They
Are fun to watch. But if you haven't seem most of the fighters in the division fight then how in the hell can you have a ranking of that division.

If Russell can take a punch as good as he gives, which I 100% believe he can't, then we might have something on our hands here. But we will never know until he fights someone with a heartbeat and some real talent.

It's a ranking out of the fighters i've seen in that division.

How can you 100% believe he can't take a punch when we've never witnessed him take a good punch

i guess u missed the part where i said "don't take my word..."

you are right....being in gyms doesn't mean a damn thing. being a student and a teacher for 35+yrs does. i've trained/trained with...world champions, olympians, worldclass trainers....i've been around the world with boxing. i don't think i know more than most.....i know, i know more than most. it's not cockiness...it's confidence. experience is the best teacher.

Wait a second, is this Freddy Roach. Oh my god im sorry. I just thought you were just some dude trying to act like hes done this and that over the internet forum. My bad. I didnt realize i was talking with a hall of famer. Much respcet. Give me a break.

Brace yourself guys...there's a confrontational POS in this thread screaming for attention.

the more i learn...the more i realize i don't know shit.

but i will say...(ydksab) that saying didn't start with roger. it's true. look at the ppl that cover boxing. they don't know shit about the sport. it's a damn shame. also....take a look at the fighters. as a fan who watched in the 80's and 90's...u should know the skill level has diminished significantly over all. my mentor used to tell me....'i forgot more about boxing than u'll ever know!!!' and i used to think it was funny and that he was full of shit. i've worked side by side with 'world class trainers' and i have to say that i was extremely surprised at how little some of them actually teach. then i can see for myself as fights unfold how much they actually know. every problem has a solution. u look at a guy like amir khan....he's supposed to be world class...has the best trainer in the business...is a former olympian with a silver medal and he NEVER learned to fight on the inside? neither has pac. is it hard to fight on the inside? i don't think so. is it hard to teach? apparently, because very few fighters fight on the inside nowadays. there are very few teachers left in the sport. the understanding that comes with years of experience and studying on the job can not be duplicated or replaced immediately. there's no way around it...u have to put in the time. that goes for fighters and trainers. no one ever knows it all. the minute u think u do is the minute u should walk away from the sport. when i first met jessie reid....i was honored because he was a guy i admired as a trainer. the first thing i said to him was...'i look forward to learning from you.' and his response....'we're going to learn from each other.' and i have to say....that statement alone puts it all in perspective. it's why i call myself daprofessor. "he who dares to teach must never cease to learn."

apology accepted. just don't let it happen again.

go easy on the guy....he's new here.


oh wait.... u are talking about the new guy right?

Yep. He's the only one in this thread that seems to be showing his thong right about now.

Fun thread. For me, Rigo is the best in that division or around that division hands down. The only thing he doesnt seem to have is a large resume. Professional that is.

i thought he'd be the talk of the town after his flawless victory on the pac/bradley undercard. unfortunately the "controversy" stole the spot light. i can't wait to see this guy in action again.

skip bayless...that guy defines not knowing shit about boxing

+5

One thing i believe is that Guillermo Rigondeaux wont get the chances he deserves, He'll be the most ducked fighter around that division

He defines not knowing shit about anything. I swear I pop a chubby anytime someone completely owns him on tv like when jalen rose or mark cuban did it. The guy doesn't even watch boxing by his own admittance, how the hell can ESPN even let this guy comment on boxing. It's emberrasing to see the type of guys they have analyzing boxing

i get the same feeling. anytime arum signs black fighters....it's usually to protect his interests.

rigondeaux should be getting more exposure...instead, he's buried on most of these cards while donaire is headlining...or is the co-feature.

The problem with Rigo, the dude has no following so of course he will always get he short end of the stick. In boxing it not about the more talent you have the more money you make, its about the fighters who can put the butts in the seats will get the most regardless if another person has more talent. Rigo only has a handfull of fights and the dude is a Cuban born so of course he wont be making the money. Even if he starts knocking off some of these top guys his paycheck still wont grow that significantly and he still will be on other fighters undercards. The only place in armerica that Rigo can headline is in Miami where he can try and draw from the Cuban people there and thats only after knocking these top guys off. Thats boxing reality

For Donaire, he is following in the footstep of a legend, so his popularity and fanbase is already there.

I like Russell a lot too but he still has to beat a guy like Moreno to be on that list, truth being told though Donaire and nearly most of them are avoiding Moreno like the plague because they know he's a tricky SP that will box their ears off.

bullshit.

rigondeaux' last two fights were more exciting than pac's and donaires last six combined. this whole..."he's from cuba so he won't be a draw" and "they're from the philippines blah,blah,blah..." the PI didn't produce shit before pac. cuba has a rich history of boxing. it all comes down to the promoter. arum either doesn't know how or won't promote a black fighter unless it's someone like ray leonard. i guarantee....if and when rigondeaux fights the big names in the division...he's going to be a star.

Dude, Rigos last two fights were against Club Fighters. Ok, he fought a guy in Rico Ramos who was a Belt Holder, and i emphise belt holder because in reality the dude is a fighter who is as green as they come. And Teon Kennedy, please the dude is a Phily club fighter nothing more. He better be more impressive against that kind of competition. IMO WV2 who Donaire fought last was better then both of those dudes.

Anyways come on now, if you are trying to compare Rigo's competition. His wins may mean more to you and exciting but damn dude consider who he fights. If he starts knocking off the top guys in the same fashion then we really have something. Also stop lumping Rigo in with Black fighters, like hes from America or something. Hes a guy From CUBA. IF he was from America he would have a leg up and be way more known, especially being a 2 time GOld medalist. Quit saying because he is Black he is not promoted right. His problem is he is from Cuba and has no following, period.

Was Casamayor making crazy money and some superstar fighter here in america? He had just as good a amatuer career coming out of Cuba? And he had a decorated Pro career?

I see Donaire and Rigondeaux as clearly the top two in the division. That would be a great fight.

I can't agree too much about the following part.

Rigo has to fight in Miami and you'll have 5 to 10,000 fans following him. Imagine Bute fighting in Florida do you think he'll get many fans there. I mean Floyd didn't have much following in the early going but in the long run skill gets recognized and skills pay the bills.

Marquez didn't get following at firts but his skills carried him and right now he is the biggest fighter out of Mexico, maybe Chavez and Canelo are better but they are yet to headline a pay per view.

It's Arum fukcing with the fighters. When he had Floyd, Floyd was nobody on the market. He has Rigo and Gamboa (not any more) and I might agree, Arum either doesn't like black fighters or can't promote them. Put Rigo and Gamboa on the same card every month in Miami and in one year they'll average 15,000 fans per fight.

I live in Toronto and we had Steve Molitor and he averaged 5,000 fans every fight. We're talking about Steve Molitor, decent fighter but nowhere near the class of Rigo and Gamboa.

I agree with this statement and I'll give you my reasoning. Most people get the chance to play basketball, soccer, football, volleyball, hockey you name the sport. But not many people get to enter a ring with somebody trying to mess them up. There is a big difference!

So yeah when you have broadcasters questioning somebody's heart like Larry does and he's never been in the ring to be hammered for 3 minutes a round, of course I'll say he doesn't know what he's talking about. We have guys in boxing fighting through broken jaws, hands, ribs, feet, etc. and winning fights. Meanwhile we praise Jordan for winning the finals cause he played with the flue or Kobe cause he had a pinch nerved in his pink or worse baseball players who have all kind of minor injuries and go on the DL. Nobody questions the heart of these people or worse is voerblown like Jordan, Kurt Shcilling
s bloody sock and Bryant's pinky finger and everybody has played basketball and basedball. Yet boxing is in a whole stratosphere and we have guys like Lampley, Merchant and the rest of them telling them how a figher feels and what's going on. They don't know shit about boxing. They can call a fight, blow by blow, talk about the history but don't try to educate us what's up cause you don't know. I hate Atlas quite a bit but he knows a lot.