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Full Version: Is it ducking if Pacquiao opts to not fight Timothy Bradley?
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Gambit808
Let's forget about what makes economical sense for this topic and dumb it down to having pride in avenging an official loss. We know that if Pacquiao decides to face Juan Manuel Marquez next, then a potential rematch against Bradley may never come too, assuming the outcome of PAC vs. MARQUEZ 4, Pacquiao may afterwards chase a mega-fight against Mayweather then retire. That means Officially Pacquiao would be 1-3 at avenging his career losses. Even if the bigger majority of fans & "un-official" officials had it that Pacquiao won, history will say that 2 out of the 3 judges didn't and that should be enough reason to wanna set the record straight, instead of putting it aside and dubing it "low risk, low reward". If he believes he won convincingly enough NOT to get the victory, then he shouldn't have a problem doing it again... But this time actually getting the victory, right?


That's why I feel that regardless of how corny Pacquiao-Bradley II sounds, if this fight isn't made then it is, what it is and that is... Ducking!


Let me read what you think.
pimpfighterROQ
In my opinion I don't think it would be considered a duck if he doesn't fight Bradley again. I thought it was a clear Pacquiao victory and he is at fault to the controversy. He made it a close fight in my opinion. He fought half assed the whole time. When he hurt Bradley a couple of times, he was confident enough to smile and shit and pulled the Ray Leonard late round flurries while letting Bradley score with his weak ass punches. Lets face it, that boy had no power.

In a rematch I see a better Bradley, having felt and faced Pacquiao's so called weird style and power. He will be no doubt be ready and make Pacquiao look bad again. But for him to win again in a rematch is a big ?. Judges are now pressured to give Pacquiao a decision if it's close once again. Also Pacquiao seem to be taking this next fight seriously (again?) Doing a full 8 week training camp in Wild Card means a more focused Pacquiao.

But you said to forget economical reasons and thats the problem because IT IS about money. Lets face it, Bob Arum is finalizing Pacquiao's legacy already. From what it looks like the elections in the Philippines would only give Pacquiao 2 more fights. Nov and April or May next year. So what does that mean? If Pac fights Bradley this Nov, that will leave him with one more fight. Presumably a Mayweather fight. After that that is it to the Pac train. Pac vs Bradley did very little in terms of ppv. On the other hand, Pac vs Marquez did very well. Arum knows this and that is why he is pushing for a Marquez fight now and a final Mayweather fight next year.

Why do you think they're taking too damn long on a decision who to fight? I think Pacquiao is really pushing Bradley but Arum is pushing a Marquez fight for obviously more monetary gain. Who will end up getting the final word? We'll see in a few days.

To answer your question, No I don't think it'll be a duck because I know how Pac will do and Bradley will do in a rematch, and given the world complaining of the controversy, judges will most likely give it to Pacquiao this time around if its close. I just don't see Bradley making Pacquiao look real bad to win another controversy this time, even if he has healthy ankles.

But your right, avenging a loss is a must. Sadly Bradley just doesn't put food on the table as much as Marquez fight does.

Jack 1000
Tim Bradley will have two good feet in a rematch, but Manny will almost get the decision no matter what,

I think Arum knows the buy rate will be low, because people will perceive that the first fight was fixed and will stay away in large numbers. Why right a wrong by doing a rematch of a decision that was so wrong in the first place? Only Brian Kenny and Tom Hauser and maybe three other people around the world had Tim winning that first fight. (And two of those three were judges.) Even on the WBO international judges review board, the scores ranged from 118-110 to 115-113 for Manny. I had it 116-112 for Manny.

A $60 PPV job to perhaps watch Bradley get screwed. Why? Especially when there is still a strong Mexican-Filipino rivalry for Pacquiao-Marquez IV. I'm not really interested in it. Manny wins another microscopic decision. There will be no Mayweather fight as long as Arum is alive.

Arum might have Manny retire after a proposed Marquez fourth match happens. Arum will make sure the fight with Floyd never happens, and Manny goes out a winner in a tough fight with Marquez, a lot of money split between he and Marquez, and Manny focuses on politics. He'll probably fight two to three more times and that's it. The sad Bradley loss, I think took something out of Manny. We'll see.

If anybody's doing the ducking, it's Bob Arum.

Jack
Gambit808
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Aug 29 2012, 02:08 AM) *
In my opinion I don't think it would be considered a duck if he doesn't fight Bradley again. I thought it was a clear Pacquiao victory and he is at fault to the controversy. He made it a close fight in my opinion. He fought half assed the whole time. When he hurt Bradley a couple of times, he was confident enough to smile and shit and pulled the Ray Leonard late round flurries while letting Bradley score with his weak ass punches. Lets face it, that boy had no power.

In a rematch I see a better Bradley, having felt and faced Pacquiao's so called weird style and power. He will be no doubt be ready and make Pacquiao look bad again. But for him to win again in a rematch is a big ?. Judges are now pressured to give Pacquiao a decision if it's close once again. Also Pacquiao seem to be taking this next fight seriously (again?) Doing a full 8 week training camp in Wild Card means a more focused Pacquiao.

But you said to forget economical reasons and thats the problem because IT IS about money. Lets face it, Bob Arum is finalizing Pacquiao's legacy already. From what it looks like the elections in the Philippines would only give Pacquiao 2 more fights. Nov and April or May next year. So what does that mean? If Pac fights Bradley this Nov, that will leave him with one more fight. Presumably a Mayweather fight. After that that is it to the Pac train. Pac vs Bradley did very little in terms of ppv. On the other hand, Pac vs Marquez did very well. Arum knows this and that is why he is pushing for a Marquez fight now and a final Mayweather fight next year.

Why do you think they're taking too damn long on a decision who to fight? I think Pacquiao is really pushing Bradley but Arum is pushing a Marquez fight for obviously more monetary gain. Who will end up getting the final word? We'll see in a few days.

To answer your question, No I don't think it'll be a duck because I know how Pac will do and Bradley will do in a rematch, and given the world complaining of the controversy, judges will most likely give it to Pacquiao this time around if its close. I just don't see Bradley making Pacquiao look real bad to win another controversy this time, even if he has healthy ankles.

But your right, avenging a loss is a must. Sadly Bradley just doesn't put food on the table as much as Marquez fight does.

Good point! I can see that outcome happening if there is indeed a rematch made with judges being more in favor of PAC because of the controversy in the first fight, especially since bradley showed that he couldn't hurt Pacquiao.

But we may agree to disagree with the whole ducking thing. Don't get me wrong I think Pacquiao has all the advantages going into this rematch, but the fact is IMO if a loss is not avenged, then that's like saying "ok, you got it" and it makes the win seem justified even if it's not, ya know
daprofessor
29 have tried and 29 have failed. he ended pacs reign. until pac rematches him....no one can call it a fluke.

pac is losing his next fight. doesn't matter if it's jmm, bradley or cotto.
Gambit808
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 29 2012, 02:31 AM) *
Tim Bradley will have two good feet in a rematch, but Manny will almost get the decision no matter what,

I think Arum knows the buy rate will be low, because people will perceive that the first fight was fixed and will stay away in large numbers. Why right a wrong by doing a rematch of a decision that was so wrong in the first place? Only Brian Kenny and Tom Hauser and maybe three other people around the world had Tim winning that first fight. (And two of those three were judges.) Even on the WBO international judges review board, the scores ranged from 118-110 to 115-113 for Manny. I had it 116-112 for Manny.

A $60 PPV job to perhaps watch Bradley get screwed. Why? Especially when there is still a strong Mexican-Filipino rivalry for Pacquiao-Marquez IV. I'm not really interested in it. Manny wins another microscopic decision. There will be no Mayweather fight as long as Arum is alive.

Arum might have Manny retire after a proposed Marquez fourth match happens. Arum will make sure the fight with Floyd never happens, and Manny goes out a winner in a tough fight with Marquez, a lot of money split between he and Marquez, and Manny focuses on politics. He'll probably fight two to three more times and that's it. The sad Bradley loss, I think took something out of Manny. We'll see.

If anybody's doing the ducking, it's Bob Arum.

Jack

You may be right from a economical stand point and since Pacquiao doesn't nessasarily make his own decisions, I see why it would be tough to leave economics out of this topic, but if Arum lays out the list of opponents along with how much there is to benefit from each and Pacquiao is the guy that chooses (as we've been told) then it may come down to Pride vs. money and sometimes either one of the choices makes more sense than the other.

I believe Pacquiao has more to prove with his Pride, by avenging his loss to Bradley than he does choosing the money option and chasing a 4th fight with Marquez, a fight in which his 2-0-1 record speaks louder than 0-1 record...[edited] or vice versa
mgrover
its like as exciting as a marquez fight will be, i still think Bradley is unfinished business and wouldnt mind watching the fight on showtime so hbo wont be out with there pom poms
leonthegee
Its more of a business decision than a duck. That just goes to show how little of a draw Bradley is if Top Rank feels it can make more fighting Marquez a fourth time.
Cshel86
The economical sense CANNOT be ignored here...hence why people are waiting in the wind to see who his next opponent will be. Let me rephrase that, the people who "actually give a damn" are waiting in the wind to see who his next opponent will be. Lol

Anyhow, I wouldn't really consider it a duck, if he choose not to fight Tim. Honestly, in my opinion, Bradley needed that fight, more than Manny. Dont get me wrong, Tim is formidable opponent for Manny (who has been fighting dead bodies), but the fact that not many people gave a damn, cancelled all of that.

Maybe that's why the "robbery" happened...so Arum could spark more interest in the fight, regardless of whether or not it happens again. Manny fighting Bradley, means less money for Manny. It's a known fact that this fight "tanked" in comparison to Manny's past PPV numbers, other than that mystery Mosley number, which I believe tanked as well.

That said, Manny cant make those huge guarantees that he always makes, if Tim is his next opponent. Tim wants more money for a rematch, and both of these guys cant get more than they did in the first fight, if the numbers are expected to decline again...something's gotta give.

Stuff like this, is a shining example of why a 50/50 split will NEVER happen. Yes, Manny Pacquiao is still the 1A or 1B fighter of the world, but he shouldn't be compensated on the strength of that alone...especially if he's being held back from making the money that he really deserves...thanks to his promoter and the other leeches around him. Why isn't Jinkee his damn manager???
checkleft
Yes. Their is nothing left to prove between pac and jmm. It's obvious jmm was on the wrong end of some if not all of those fights, I think Juan is actually the better fighter of the two but it seems like the judges think its a popularity contest or a shoe shining exhibition.

Bradley made pac look bad, with a bad ankle on top of that (even tho it was caused by him doing the chicken dance after a few good shots). A lot of people, boxing fans, believe Bradley can do nothing but improve on that performance. Plus he talks shit and casual fans will probably want to see him get kod.

But yes its a duck, because a marquez fight would be the easy way out on the count that all manny has to do is get to the finish line to win.
Cheesey1
Agreed.
For me, he would definitely be ducking. Some will say that he didn't lose the first one, so how can he be ducking? Whatever. I know what I saw, it was close and could probably have gone either way, but it went Bradley's way, so he won. If the Saint takes a pass, then he doesn't't want to be caught in 'the Desert Storm' a second time.
daprofessor
as a fan....i don't care about which fighter brings him more money. he's gonna make a killing fighting anyone. as a fan...i think he's already got a wins over jmm and cotto. he's got a loss against bradley. that needs to be made right first and foremost. choosing to fight either of the two guys he already beat cannot be viewed as anything but a duck. sad part of it all....it doesn't matter which of the three he faces...he's losing his next fight.
Gambit808
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Aug 29 2012, 09:39 AM) *
The economical sense CANNOT be ignored here...hence why people are waiting in the wind to see who his next opponent will be. Let me rephrase that, the people who "actually give a damn" are waiting in the wind to see who his next opponent will be. Lol

Anyhow, I wouldn't really consider it a duck, if he choose not to fight Tim. Honestly, in my opinion, Bradley needed that fight, more than Manny. Dont get me wrong, Tim is formidable opponent for Manny (who has been fighting dead bodies), but the fact that not many people gave a damn, cancelled all of that.

Maybe that's why the "robbery" happened...so Arum could spark more interest in the fight, regardless of whether or not it happens again. Manny fighting Bradley, means less money for Manny. It's a known fact that this fight "tanked" in comparison to Manny's past PPV numbers, other than that mystery Mosley number, which I believe tanked as well.

That said, Manny cant make those huge guarantees that he always makes, if Tim is his next opponent. Tim wants more money for a rematch, and both of these guys cant get more than they did in the first fight, if the numbers are expected to decline again...something's gotta give.

Stuff like this, is a shining example of why a 50/50 split will NEVER happen. Yes, Manny Pacquiao is still the 1A or 1B fighter of the world, but he shouldn't be compensated on the strength of that alone...especially if he's being held back from making the money that he really deserves...thanks to his promoter and the other leeches around him. Why isn't Jinkee his damn manager???

Yea I guess it is tough to leave out the business aspect of things with this argument, but in the sense of pride, doesn't it make more sense that PAC avenges his official loss against Bradley, rather than avenge his 2 wins and a draw to Juan Manuel Marquez. I just think Manny has more to prove fighting Bradley instead of Marquez.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Aug 29 2012, 01:37 PM) *
Yea I guess it is tough to leave out the business aspect of things with this argument, but in the sense of pride, doesn't it make more sense that PAC avenges his official loss against Bradley, rather than avenge his 2 wins and a draw to Juan Manuel Marquez. I just think Manny has more to prove fighting Bradley instead of Marquez.

Gotcha! From a pride stance, of course he has to go back and fight Bradley. If anything, he beat himself by taking the first 2 mins off of every round, so yes, he should make that right.

I still dont necessarily think its a duck job by him (economically speaking), but honestly, if he's smart, he'd fight Bradley next, then go back to the well with JMM. If it's done in reverse order, then he'd look shitty against JMM, and it would appear that he had to prove himself twice over, heading into a Bradley rematch.
Franchize
I don't think it is ducking at all. I'm a huge critic of Top Prank and if anything, I'd gain more respect for him. It's been a while since a rooted for Manny because of the shady shit that goes on within his camp and mamagement, but I'd applaud him if he said FUCK YOU to a rematch. But then again, I'd have to see what his reasoning is for turnng it down too. Don't turn it down and fight someone even less challenging. I have respect for Bradley but that fight went about the way I expected until the decision. Bradley did show he, @ least, belonged in the same ring. If Manny goes and fights a guy like Brandon Rios however, I'm going to lose even more respect for him. I think if Manny says "look, I'm either fighting Mayweather @ 147 or Cotto at 150 or more. If not...I'll just retire", I wouldnt blame him for turning down Bradley. Even those few ppl who feel Bradley won won't even say it was an impressive display of boxing. It was a clumsy clusterfuck of poor technique vs lack of explosion and REGARDLESS of the outcome, it does not need to be repeated. I felt Amir Khan hit Judah low even though he absolutely outclassed him. Doesn't mean I want to see the shit ever again! lol
sduck
No I don't think it would be ducking. It would be ducking if majority saw Bradley winning but getting robbed (like Marquez).
daprofessor
QUOTE (Franchize @ Aug 29 2012, 03:25 PM) *
I don't think it is ducking at all. I'm a huge critic of Top Prank and if anything, I'd gain more respect for him. It's been a while since a rooted for Manny because of the shady shit that goes on within his camp and mamagement, but I'd applaud him if he said FUCK YOU to a rematch. But then again, I'd have to see what his reasoning is for turnng it down too. Don't turn it down and fight someone even less challenging. I have respect for Bradley but that fight went about the way I expected until the decision. Bradley did show he, @ least, belonged in the same ring. If Manny goes and fights a guy like Brandon Rios however, I'm going to lose even more respect for him. I think if Manny says "look, I'm either fighting Mayweather @ 147 or Cotto at 150 or more. If not...I'll just retire", I wouldnt blame him for turning down Bradley. Even those few ppl who feel Bradley won won't even say it was an impressive display of boxing. It was a clumsy clusterfuck of poor technique vs lack of explosion and REGARDLESS of the outcome, it does not need to be repeated. I felt Amir Khan hit Judah low even though he absolutely outclassed him. Doesn't mean I want to see the shit ever again! lol



fair enough. all good points. but one of us has to go against the grain otherwise there's no debating. laugh.gif
xxxxxx
Yes. The ONLY fights for Pacman at this point are BRADLEY or MAYWEATHER. It's very clear and simple.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Aug 29 2012, 03:25 PM) *
I don't think it is ducking at all. I'm a huge critic of Top Prank and if anything, I'd gain more respect for him. It's been a while since a rooted for Manny because of the shady shit that goes on within his camp and mamagement, but I'd applaud him if he said FUCK YOU to a rematch. But then again, I'd have to see what his reasoning is for turnng it down too. Don't turn it down and fight someone even less challenging. I have respect for Bradley but that fight went about the way I expected until the decision. Bradley did show he, @ least, belonged in the same ring. If Manny goes and fights a guy like Brandon Rios however, I'm going to lose even more respect for him. I think if Manny says "look, I'm either fighting Mayweather @ 147 or Cotto at 150 or more. If not...I'll just retire", I wouldnt blame him for turning down Bradley. Even those few ppl who feel Bradley won won't even say it was an impressive display of boxing. It was a clumsy clusterfuck of poor technique vs lack of explosion and REGARDLESS of the outcome, it does not need to be repeated. I felt Amir Khan hit Judah low even though he absolutely outclassed him. Doesn't mean I want to see the shit ever again! lol

laugh.gif
checkleft
QUOTE (xxxxxx @ Aug 30 2012, 06:31 PM) *
Yes. The ONLY fights for Pacman at this point are BRADLEY or MAYWEATHER. It's very clear and simple.

This
BrutUalBK
Yes, Manny is ducking if he doesn't fight Bradley!!
Gambit808
SMH @ Pacquiao-Marquez 4, I understand the business side of it, but idk... I'm starting to feel like PAC really believes he lost 1 if not the majority of the fights they had and he may actually lose this 4th fight. With that said a DUCK is a DUCK and Pacquiao just chose the goose, that is Marquez. No matter how you slice it, OFFICIALY, Timothy Bradley will always be known as the guy who was the first to derail PAC-Mania... Courtesy of the 2 judges of coarse.

pacco_diablo
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Sep 12 2012, 11:52 PM) *
SMH @ Pacquiao-Marquez 4, I understand the business side of it, but idk... I'm starting to feel like PAC really believes he lost 1 if not the majority of the fights they had and he may actually lose this 4th fight. With that said a DUCK is a DUCK and Pacquiao just chose the goose, that is Marquez. No matter how you slice it, OFFICIALY, Timothy Bradley will always be known as the guy who was the first to derail PAC-Mania... Courtesy of the 2 judges of coarse.


I agree. This move hurts MP IMO and to me makes his unvalidated loss to Bradley look valid, even to the point of ducking. This is a BS move and I've personally lost some boxing respect for Manny. I sure hate to piss on someones money but I hope this fight falls flat on it's PPV ass. At this point, I don't even feel like watching this fight. I'm definitely not buying it.
mgrover
Realistically Marquez is the harder fight i think, thing it's because Marquez knows MP like the back of his hand
Gambit808
QUOTE (mgrover @ Sep 13 2012, 10:39 AM) *
Realistically Marquez is the harder fight i think, thing it's because Marquez knows MP like the back of his hand

Yea I agree, but I'm looking at this fight as what can Pacquiao gain from this, if it just so happens that he wins AGAIN against Marquez, as oppose to what he can gain by making a rematch against Bradley (like setting the record straight and getting his title back). I mean I don't even think this 4th fight with Marquez is even for a strap, is it?

It's like what @pacco diablo said, it makes his loss to Bradley look valid though many feel that it wasn't.
mgrover
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Sep 13 2012, 05:15 PM) *
Yea I agree, but I'm looking at this fight as what can Pacquiao gain from this, if it just so happens that he wins AGAIN against Marquez, as oppose to what he can gain by making a rematch against Bradley (like setting the record straight and getting his title back). I mean I don't even think this 4th fight with Marquez is even for a strap, is it?

It's like what @pacco diablo said, it makes his loss to Bradley look valid though many feel that it wasn't.


yeah i see it more as if he wants to avenge the loss well, then he took a loss didn't he and it wasn't the robbery everybody thought.
daprofessor
jmm will finally get his official "W" against pac even though i thought he beat pac the last two times they fought.
maac
Of course it isn't ducking! It's ridiculous. Reasons:

1) it's a business decision, which mandates over any other consideration,
at this point in the career of Pac (money talks).

2) everyone knows who won the last 2 fight of Pac: against Marquez,
Marquez won; against Bradley, Pac won, so, it's too much important to Pac
redeem that perceived 'loss'.

3) public perception: the public knows that the nemesis of Pac, who knows
him very well, is Marquez, so it's the true challenge. In fact, it's a signal of
DISDAIN towards Bradley, and it VALIDATES the robbery suffered against him
(inside him he knows he doesn't need demonstrate nothing to Bradley).
Pac has recognized that of the 2 opponents, Bradley is the 'easiest'
route (speaking relatively).
checkleft
I'm definitely not buying this. This is almost like the spiderman trilogy it just keeps getting worse and worse and we know who's gonna win in the end anyway

Oh and yes its a duck. After making pac look like shit in a very sloppy fight they are ducking Bradley because of his work ethic all he can do is improve in a rematch. If it walks and quacks like a duck.....

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