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bosco
After watching the Andre Ward vs Chad Dawson fight it got me to thinking. Vic Ortiz took an enormous amount of criticism when he quit in his fight with Maidana. Saturday night we saw Chad Dawson told the referee he quit in the Andre Ward fight but I haven't heard an ounce of criticism towards Dawson. Is it fair that Ortiz received tons of criticism and Dawson none. Is that fair and why?
Gambit808
Good point here, but the thing about Ortiz is that it always happens when it's ahead even fight, after he knocks his opponent down then allows them to get back up, fight back to the point he quits. Chad was just getting his ass whipped the whole fight and had no choice but to.
neophyte7
Ortiz gets criticized because he was head butting and starting to get desperate prior to the head butt that split Floyd's mouth. He was getting straight annihilted with right hands.. His move was a desperation move reminiscent of some Zab Judah shit... add the fact that idiots feel Floyd has no power and he should have gotten up despite being hit with two of Mayweather's best shots-- the left hook and straight right hand... Ortiz could have tried to shake it off, but one thing for sure had he been allowed to continue it would have been a viscious stoppage...I did not see the bout where Dawson quit but in my view the bulk of Ortiz being criticized is people being in denial as to how hard he was hit... it was 4 rounds had it been 9 and the same events maybe he would not have been critcized. Dawson stood in for 9 rounds whereas Ortiz seemed to get shaky after Floyd landed a 12 punch combo i think in round 3 or round 4 prior to his act of desperation. He essentially quit trying to compete legitimately when he resorted to fouling....
Cheesey1
Ortiz is a bit wacky, but I was never one of those that questioned his not wanting to continue after the broken jaw and I also got over the Maidana debacle a long time ago. These guys put themselves through a lot and for the most part their critics couldn't handle a quarter of what they have to deal with.

That being said, I think that Gambit's post gets to the heart of the issue.
BigFightFan
Chad just couldn't perform at the weight and once he got cut that was it for his confidence. Although I was disappointed in his performance he is a notch above Ortiz in the heart category. I still believe in Dawson, he is only missing that killer instinct that would take him over the top
daprofessor
QUOTE (bosco @ Sep 10 2012, 06:40 PM) *
After watching the Andre Ward vs Chad Dawson fight it got me to thinking. Vic Ortiz took an enormous amount of criticism when he quit in his fight with Maidana. Saturday night we saw Chad Dawson told the referee he quit in the Andre Ward fight but I haven't heard an ounce of criticism towards Dawson. Is it fair that Ortiz received tons of criticism and Dawson none. Is that fair and why?


all fighters take risks when they step through the ropes. that alone is enough for me to respect them thoroughly. imo...the ppl criticizing victor or chad have no idea what it's like to be in their shoes...so their criticism doesn't hold water.

ortiz was getting bombed on....his corner gave him horrible advice and the same thing happened over and over again. i understand why he quit. he has to live with it...i'm sure the burden is a lot worse than anything anyone on a message board can say.

as for chad...it was pretty much the same thing. he tried...he failed...he lives to fight another day. even in his failure...he's still a warrior. he put himself at a disadvantage by coming down in weight...and going to wards backyard for this fight. he made no excuses. he took his beating like a man. he knew he had no answers. he opted to stop the action and go back to the drawing board. the man has a life outside of boxing. there's no need to take unnecessary punishment.
Cshel86
Good topic. Ortiz receives so much criticism because he plays into this vicious, "I'm a bit on the crazy side" persona, then he wants people to feel sorry for him due to his ass-chapping backstory that he constantly harps on.

With that in mind, people actually give him twice the support in fights, then he mentally folds and pisses everybody off...dude straight turns into the Little Engine That Could...but he comes up short.

They both have mental lapses in fights, but the difference here is, nobody really knows Chad like that, and Victor has been built up to be this BIG star...and has come up short. The weight was an issue with Chad, so he shouldn't receive any more flack than Morales did for quitting in the 3rd Pac fight...which was little to none.
mrchitown
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Sep 10 2012, 07:54 PM) *
all fighters take risks when they step through the ropes. that alone is enough for me to respect them thoroughly. imo...the ppl criticizing victor or chad have no idea what it's like to be in their shoes...so their criticism doesn't hold water.

ortiz was getting bombed on....his corner gave him horrible advice and the same thing happened over and over again. i understand why he quit. he has to live with it...i'm sure the burden is a lot worse than anything anyone on a message board can say.

as for chad...it was pretty much the same thing. he tried...he failed...he lives to fight another day. even in his failure...he's still a warrior. he put himself at a disadvantage by coming down in weight...and going to wards backyard for this fight. he made no excuses. he took his beating like a man. he knew he had no answers. he opted to stop the action and go back to the drawing board. the man has a life outside of boxing. there's no need to take unnecessary punishment.


That is so true. Sports like many forms of entertainment need fans. But the thing that most fans don't do is actively participate in that form of entertainment, in this case boxing. I question many who accuse Ortiz or Dawson for "quitting". When some of them are out of shape, internet trolls who hide behind a cpu, or failed H.S. athletes LOL.

Boxing is the most cruel sport that one can choose to partake in, it's sad when you get people who are insurance agents question the "heart" of these men. I've not done that and I will never do that because I am one of the few who know what a fighter goes thru to get to that point. Granted I haven't fought professionally but as an amateur and as a trainer, I see ht e level of determination these fighters go thru to get in the ring and it's sad when you got people who haven't went thru a training camp, dealt with the media, or had a world class fighter swinging at you to question your desire to win

mrchitown
The only similarities that I see between the 2 fighters being discussed in this thread is that they are notorious for mental lapses in the ring
checkleft
I honestly think ortiz could be over his. He got his jaw hurt round 4 I think? And he was still up big landing good shots and actually boxing, using the jab and scoring. But then he for hit again and it turned into a double fracture and I believe it was over a blood vessel or something like that. You can't control that type of stuff, but as for the stuff he could control he was doing a good job.

Chad.. can be two chads, bad (literally) or bad (shaft bad). Pascal completely mind fucked him and cut him in their fight and chad looked a lot like he did in the ward fight, lost, out of gas, lost of confidence, and ready to give up. Again in the ward fight he looked the same but ward really capitalized and finished.
Cshel86
I honestly don't feel that Chad should have taken the Ward fight...bad weight cut, bad payday, and a beating. Not only that, but the manner in which he was beat. If this was Chad's last fight, then I could understand.

Anyhow, he can and will go back to 175, but he is now subject to C-class fighters like Pascal, Cloud, and few others, adopting the game plan that Ward used, when they damn sure had little to no idea how to beat him from jump. Pascal may have been the closest, but not the others.

Can you say, raw deal? I'm not sure what his plans were before calling out Ward, but "wanting to fight the best", may not have worked out well for him. I don't consider him a quitter in this situation, because I'm sure that he didn't think the weight would have THAT much of an effect on him.

As for Victor, I give him a pass for his last outing against Lopez because of the jaw, but not the Maidana fight, and his escape effort in the Mayweather fight. In ANY sport, or situation...there are people who don't quite make the cut, and there are those who make the cut, but don't exactly have what it takes to remain...I believe Victor could possibly be the latter.
checkleft
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Sep 10 2012, 11:33 PM) *
I honestly don't feel that Chad should have taken the Ward fight...bad weight cut, bad payday, and a beating. Not only that, but the manner in which he was beat. If this was Chad's last fight, then I could understand.

Anyhow, he can and will go back to 175, but he is now subject to C-class fighters like Pascal, Cloud, and few others, adopting the game plan that Ward used, when they damn sure had little to no idea how to beat him from jump. Pascal may have been the closest, but not the others.

Can you say, raw deal? I'm not sure what his plans were before calling out Ward, but "wanting to fight the best", may not have worked out well for him. I don't consider him a quitter in this situation, because I'm sure that he didn't think the weight would have THAT much of an effect on him.

As for Victor, I give him a pass for his last outing against Lopez because of the jaw, but not the Maidana fight, and his escape effort in the Mayweather fight. In ANY sport, or situation...there are people who don't quite make the cut, and there are those who make the cut, but don't exactly have what it takes to remain...I believe Victor could possibly be the latter.

I actually like the fact that he was trying to rough up mayweather I just don't agree with how he did it and how blatant it was and I know mayweather was landing very well but I think vic had him uncomfortable in there.
Franchize
This is a VERY good topic. Much Props! I was disappointed Chad quit. I won't lie. I said it when it happened. That being said, Ortiz committed the 2 cardinal sins of competition multiple times. He's quit and cheated more than once. For that, he'll be a sucker to me for a long long time. Also, when Ortiz quit, in both fights, he had a legit chance of winning still. He balked at a little adversity. Even though I thought Dawson started off better than Ward, after a while, Dawson couldn't do anything productive and the whole fight he was just fighting off Ward's onslaught of accuracy. I guess that's where the slight difference lies in it at least for me. Also, Dawson was fighting the 2nd best P4P fighter in the world. Ortiz fought a guy who only has punching power and very little skill (Maidana) and a guy who was supposed to be a "tune up" (Lopez).

Also, you can't discredit Chad for the fact that he had the balls to step in against Ward when he could have simply laid back and reigned supreme vs the weaker light heavyweight division. He went out of his way to take on a tough challenge. Not out of jealousy or trying to steal a fan base, but simply to test himself. I thought it was very admirable. I thought it was risky and borderline dumb actually. But hey, you gotta respect the best wanting to fight the best right after coming off a win that otherwise warranted them chilling for a while.
checkleft
Do you think Khan could be placed in this category as well? He seems to have confidence problems from what I see as well, he's so caught up trying to prove he's in the same league as other people that he exposes his chin and invites hard shots. I mean even after Garcia knocked him silly the next round he was waving him in as to say "come on, your not hurting me".
zzeeda
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Sep 11 2012, 04:45 AM) *
That is so true. Sports like many forms of entertainment need fans. But the thing that most fans don't do is actively participate in that form of entertainment, in this case boxing. I question many who accuse Ortiz or Dawson for "quitting". When some of them are out of shape, internet trolls who hide behind a cpu, or failed H.S. athletes LOL.

Boxing is the most cruel sport that one can choose to partake in, it's sad when you get people who are insurance agents question the "heart" of these men. I've not done that and I will never do that because I am one of the few who know what a fighter goes thru to get to that point. Granted I haven't fought professionally but as an amateur and as a trainer, I see ht e level of determination these fighters go thru to get in the ring and it's sad when you got people who haven't went thru a training camp, dealt with the media, or had a world class fighter swinging at you to question your desire to win


That is so through. fans esp boxing fans are so fickle. I have never boxed a single day in my life but I could tell how hard it must be to be punched in the head in order to make a living. this thing of fans calling fighters stuff like "bums", "no heart", "washed up","waste of space" etc.. when they havent ever got into a ring. how can you tell a man that steps into a ring to go take blows to his head that he has "no heart"? ridiculous.

very good point you made.
mrchitown
QUOTE (zzeeda @ Sep 15 2012, 09:58 AM) *
That is so through. fans esp boxing fans are so fickle. I have never boxed a single day in my life but I could tell how hard it must be to be punched in the head in order to make a living. this thing of fans calling fighters stuff like "bums", "no heart", "washed up","waste of space" etc.. when they havent ever got into a ring. how can you tell a man that steps into a ring to go take blows to his head that he has "no heart"? ridiculous.

very good point you made.


Agreed, it is very tough and it is not like other sports where you get to rely on someone such as a teammate to cover for you if you make a mistake, I just hate how the "quitter" label is thrown around so freely these days
mgrover
if people haven't been through that, i don't think they should comment, i've only ever done it a handful of times, and past the 6th round i began to slowly hate what i was doing i was that tired
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