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daprofessor
i've always thought p4p talk was silly and just an excuse for certain fighters to avoid others, but lately, this shit is getting ridiculous. let me put this in perspective...when a guy like floyd dominates at 130 to 135 then moves up to win straps against quality opposition in the 140, 147 and 154 weight classes...ok, i'll listen to p4p talk. when a guy like pac fights 3 of the best fighters(jmm, em, barrera) in his division a total of ten times and comes out on top...yeah, i'll listen to p4p arguments on that one too! u want to be considered p4p one of the best in boxing...prove you are the best in your division. andre ward just fought in a tournament involving all the best at 168....and when the dust settled...he was the last man standing. he has proven to be the best in his division. i don't see anyone out there that would argue otherwise.

when a guy like donaire, who i think has the potential to be something special, chooses not to acknowledge the best in his division...and hasn't really proven to be the best in his division...that's where the p4p discussion needs to end. stop!!! i think agbeko, mares, moreno and rigondeaux all have something to say on the matter. i'm not saying he has to fight all of these guys....but at least beat 1 or 2. maybe a tournament is in order for 122 as well?

what say u?
Cshel86
Class is officially in fuckin' session! The Professor speaks! Thank you!

I'll give my take on this one momentarily. At the moment, there should just be a Top 5 P4P, though I really dont believe in the whole P4P fluff.
checkleft
This is a thread that I have made in my head a million times, thanks professor. I thought I was the only one who saw the light Haha.

daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Oct 15 2012, 07:22 PM) *
This is a thread that I have made in my head a million times, thanks professor. I thought I was the only one who saw the light Haha.


that's the thing i love about this board...i get an idea for a thread...someone else posts it when i forget. laugh.gif
Cshel86
The big elephant in the room is, what division has Nonito even conquered? We can start there.

I mean the only names that he's fought was Darchinyan and Vasquez Jr. People started riding his sack after the Montiel KO, and Nishioka was so hesitant to the point that fans who didn't know him, will never know how good he really was.

That's the shit that bothers me, Donaire knocked Montiel back into his childhood years with a counter left hook, and people crowned him King. I still cant believe this P4P mess is still going on, with his name involved. I mean like the dude's personality, and he's a good fighter, but let's not go overboard here.

As I mentioned recently, he tried to jump ship from Top Rank a little over a year ago, and now Bob is making him pay for it. He's getting stuck in the ring with no name guys who are afraid to fight, but these guys are put in there to make him look good.

Guys who aren't afraid to go in there and crack his head, are being mentioned, but kept away from him. His opponents that are supposed to make him look good, are really hurting him. They're proving that with his high level of athleticism, he still cant break through solid defense.

They have this guy jumping all over the place looking like a fool...and some of them have managed to mess his face up with simple punches (jabs). So again, how in the heck is this dude considered P4P? He cant even stay in a division long enough to save his life.

People are actually saying that this dude doesn't have any competition, like he's a beast, but a guy with a solid jab that he works behind, and isn't afraid to force an exchange with Donaire...makes him look bad. I actually had more respect for Vasquez after the Donaire fight.
leonthegee
Nonito has p4p talent. He doesnt have a p4p resume yet. But he does have real boxing ability and the kind of power in both hands that makes him the most fierce at 122 IMO. I think Nonito cooks everybody at 122. Rigo is probably the stiffest opposition but Arum wont give Rigo that fight yet. Rigo just signed an 18 month extension and Arum will use a Nonito fight as bait to resign Rigo again in 18 months.
Jovi
Thank you for posting this, i came on this site hoping someone actually had the same thoughts as me. I see great minds do think alike.

I hate it because i want to like nonito because he definitely does have skill, but i hate when i dont see him against anyone that even had a chance of winning. I know he wants to get his paper and his name up, but dammmm, i think it sounded pretty bitch about talking about rigondeaux after his fight with nishioka. I feel the problem is he must be trying to give the ILLUSION he's a top p4p without having any proof. I mean i know he knocked Montiel with that killer hook but all he seems to be concerned with now is tryna be sensational. And he should know that, i feel like hes tryna force it, trying too hard. He'll get checked against someone who can counter him with good defense and offense.

Its corny because he talks about how it wont sell but it would probably be his best fight and would end up being an instant classic. Fight of the year. but i see Rigo taking it, if nonito knew he could beat him he woulda been fought him and and took that easy W just like his last couple of fights. Nonito already gets hit too much, I cant see him lasting against Rigondeaux.
Cshel86
The problem with the boxing world, is that they are too quick to crown fighters or fights. As soon as they see a good fight, they come out of nowhere with the whole, "Oh damn man, uh uh, that was the Fight of the Year"...and the fuckin' fight may have taken place 2-3 months into the new year. Lol

I see it waaay too often on social networks, and I just want to tell them, "Relax man, I know that was probably the first fight that you've ever watched, but chill out". Then they start flying off the handle and throwing names in the hat for the person to fight...KNOWING (or in their case, not knowing) that boxing just doesn't serve up the best fights to fans.

Then they start crying about MMA being better than boxing, and boxing is dying, and so forth. The funny thing is, you ask them to name some fighters, and they can hardly name any. Im just ready for this stupid megafight to either happen, or for somebody to step forward and say that it aint happenin'. Bob did it once, shouldn't be a problem for him to do it again.

In the background of this megafight nonsense, we get shit like Donaire being at the Top of people's P4P list. Now he just wants to skip around divisions, TRY to look invincible against no-hopers, and weasel his way into a megafight...hasn't happened yet. Dude cant even stay in a division more than 9 months nowadays. Lol
bnoles4life
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Oct 15 2012, 09:26 PM) *
Nonito has p4p talent. He doesnt have a p4p resume yet.


If I'm not mistaken, I think the "Gee" summed up the consensus here in 20 words or less. Spot on.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Oct 15 2012, 08:21 PM) *
The big elephant in the room is, what division has Nonito even conquered? We can start there.

I mean the only names that he's fought was Darchinyan and Vasquez Jr. People started riding his sack after the Montiel KO, and Nishioka was so hesitant to the point that fans who didn't know him, will never know how good he really was.

That's the shit that bothers me, Donaire knocked Montiel back into his childhood years with a counter left hook, and people crowned him King. I still cant believe this P4P mess is still going on, with his name involved. I mean like the dude's personality, and he's a good fighter, but let's not go overboard here.

As I mentioned recently, he tried to jump ship from Top Rank a little over a year ago, and now Bob is making him pay for it. He's getting stuck in the ring with no name guys who are afraid to fight, but these guys are put in there to make him look good.

Guys who aren't afraid to go in there and crack his head, are being mentioned, but kept away from him. His opponents that are supposed to make him look good, are really hurting him. They're proving that with his high level of athleticism, he still cant break through solid defense.

They have this guy jumping all over the place looking like a fool...and some of them have managed to mess his face up with simple punches (jabs). So again, how in the heck is this dude considered P4P? He cant even stay in a division long enough to save his life.

People are actually saying that this dude doesn't have any competition, like he's a beast, but a guy with a solid jab that he works behind, and isn't afraid to force an exchange with Donaire...makes him look bad. I actually had more respect for Vasquez after the Donaire fight.


i agree with almost everything in this post...except for the part about bob making him pay for it...i think bob is protecting him and looking to capitalize on the filipino fans with donaire.

toprank resigned rigondeaux with the promise that he'd get donaire in 3 fights...rigondeaux signed a 18 month extension. i'm not holding my breath on that happening. donaire posted some stuff saying he's willing to fight him if his name is on the contract. easy statement to make when u know your promoter has no intention of making that match.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Jovi @ Oct 15 2012, 11:56 PM) *
Thank you for posting this, i came on this site hoping someone actually had the same thoughts as me. I see great minds do think alike.

I hate it because i want to like nonito because he definitely does have skill, but i hate when i dont see him against anyone that even had a chance of winning. I know he wants to get his paper and his name up, but dammmm, i think it sounded pretty bitch about talking about rigondeaux after his fight with nishioka. I feel the problem is he must be trying to give the ILLUSION he's a top p4p without having any proof. I mean i know he knocked Montiel with that killer hook but all he seems to be concerned with now is tryna be sensational. And he should know that, i feel like hes tryna force it, trying too hard. He'll get checked against someone who can counter him with good defense and offense.

Its corny because he talks about how it wont sell but it would probably be his best fight and would end up being an instant classic. Fight of the year. but i see Rigo taking it, if nonito knew he could beat him he woulda been fought him and and took that easy W just like his last couple of fights. Nonito already gets hit too much, I cant see him lasting against Rigondeaux.


the board is definitely high quality and i really appreciate the boxing minds here. thanks!

his skill is undeniable...his resume is still being written. he has all the opposition in front of him to achieve greatness. i didn't like what he said after the fight....i think a tournament is in order.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Oct 16 2012, 07:12 AM) *
The problem with the boxing world, is that they are too quick to crown fighters or fights. As soon as they see a good fight, they come out of nowhere with the whole, "Oh damn man, uh uh, that was the Fight of the Year"...and the fuckin' fight may have taken place 2-3 months into the new year. Lol

I see it waaay too often on social networks, and I just want to tell them, "Relax man, I know that was probably the first fight that you've ever watched, but chill out". Then they start flying off the handle and throwing names in the hat for the person to fight...KNOWING (or in their case, not knowing) that boxing just doesn't serve up the best fights to fans.

Then they start crying about MMA being better than boxing, and boxing is dying, and so forth. The funny thing is, you ask them to name some fighters, and they can hardly name any. Im just ready for this stupid megafight to either happen, or for somebody to step forward and say that it aint happenin'. Bob did it once, shouldn't be a problem for him to do it again.

In the background of this megafight nonsense, we get shit like Donaire being at the Top of people's P4P list. Now he just wants to skip around divisions, TRY to look invincible against no-hopers, and weasel his way into a megafight...hasn't happened yet. Dude cant even stay in a division more than 9 months nowadays. Lol


i would say hbo is partly to blame for trying to manufacture champions and big fights. honestly, if and when pac/may happens...i think a shit load of ppl are going to be highly disappointed...much the same way they were when may/dlh happened. that fight was over sold...and as a result...they got big numbers....but they also got plenty of fair weather fans who swore off boxing and called that fight shit. anyone who knew boxing knew that would be a chess match/glorified sparring session. neither guy would take the chances to score a ko...therefore...there would be no ko. the best fights in boxing tend to be the least publicized. who knew castillo/corrales would be a great fight besides the die hards? how much did they promote rios/alvarez? the fights we know are going to be good rarely get any press. it's up to us, the die hards/purists, to spread the word and educate the fans. i don't even entertain the 'boxing is dying/mma is taking over' bullshit. mma has piggie backed on boxing long enough. i don't watch that sport...i have zero interest in it.
BoxingEinstein

SMH at this post, some of you are the same people who said Nishioka would be Donaire's stiffest test because of his decent power, killer speed, intelligence, and pacing. Donaire smashes the fool and makes him hesitant to exchange since the 1st bell and you guys denounce him. Donaire has p4p skill and I believe he will be a p4p force. Nishioka is no pushover and he knew Donaire could put his lights at anytime and he was right to play it safe. That cuban fighter you guys keep naming will get smoked all the same and you guys will all say he still isn't p4p worthy. The hate!!!!!!!!!
flazi
if you think donaire wil smoke rigondueax, you are dead wrong. its a 50/50 fight. the cuban is in a whole different league as any of donaire opposition so far and he would have smoked them all the same way if not more impressively. i like both fighters, donaire skill is awesome, he is the total package but so is the cuban.
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 02:39 PM) *
SMH at this post, some of you are the same people who said Nishioka would be Donaire's stiffest test because of his decent power, killer speed, intelligence, and pacing. Donaire smashes the fool and makes him hesitant to exchange since the 1st bell and you guys denounce him. Donaire has p4p skill and I believe he will be a p4p force. Nishioka is no pushover and he knew Donaire could put his lights at anytime and he was right to play it safe. That cuban fighter you guys keep naming will get smoked all the same and you guys will all say he still isn't p4p worthy. The hate!!!!!!!!!


i think u need to re-read this thread. no one is questioning his skill. we all pretty much agree he has amazing skill. my question to u...how was nishioka crowned the best in the division? surely it wasn't because of his win over an old shop worn rafael marquez. jhonny gonzalez is decent opposition...but hardly the kind of guy that makes u the best in the division. help me understand. clearly...skillwise...rigondeaux is very high. i would argue higher than nishioka. obviously...aside from his strap and two gold medals...he doesn't have the resume to make him the best either. mares and moreno have both signed to fight it out to see who's best. i think both are highly skilled and regarded and a win for either is a bigger accomplishment than anything both donaire and rigondeaux have done at 122. like my post that started this thread said...i don't expect him to fight all of them...but it would be nice to see him prove he's the best. agbeko deserves to be in the conversation as well.

no hate here my friend. try again.
BoxingEinstein
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 16 2012, 03:12 PM) *
i think u need to re-read this thread. no one is questioning his skill. we all pretty much agree he has amazing skill. my question to u...how was nishioka crowned the best in the division? surely it wasn't because of his win over an old shop worn rafael marquez. jhonny gonzalez is decent opposition...but hardly the kind of guy that makes u the best in the division. help me understand. clearly...skillwise...rigondeaux is very high. i would argue higher than nishioka. obviously...aside from his strap and two gold medals...he doesn't have the resume to make him the best either. mares and moreno have both signed to fight it out to see who's best. i think both are highly skilled and regarded and a win for either is a bigger accomplishment than anything both donaire and rigondeaux have done at 122. like my post that started this thread said...i don't expect him to fight all of them...but it would be nice to see him prove he's the best. agbeko deserves to be in the conversation as well.

no hate here my friend. try again.


I'll say it again but in terms you can understand my friend. Nishioka has done more than the Cuban Prune and has certainly earned it. Shop worn or not Marquez still has a pulse. Nishioka confused and baffled a war veteran and fighter who always brings hell to any fighter on the other side of the ring. Nishioka defeated a good fighter in Gonzalez and defeated a very underated, terrific fighter in Veeraphol Sahaprom. Skillwise? Donaire is more skilled because he's faced different types of styles and better opposition. The Cuban Prune hasn't faced a fighter that can allow me to say..oh he has skills and he can take on Donaire. Your giving The Cuban Prune more than he can chew. Amateur experience is different than pro, if you guys want Rigo to taste defeat early in his late career then fine. Donaire isn't the right tree to be barking up against, let The Cuban Prune face someone like Vazquez Jr. or the winner of Mares/Moreno before he can face the Filipino Flash.
mgrover
maybe if he beats mares, rigon, etc etc etc but now nah
BoxingEinstein
QUOTE (mgrover @ Oct 16 2012, 03:59 PM) *
maybe if he beats mares, rigon, etc etc etc but now nah


Wow...you guys sound like the Floyd Haters or the Martinez haters. The guys keeps beating quality opposition in front of him and then you call in the next guy to say he should beat before you say p4p. SMH. When he does beat Rigo you all will say he needs to fight Chris John or Caballero to be p4p. Boxing fans are so finicky maybe not as finicky as casual fans.
checkleft
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 03:24 PM) *
Wow...you guys sound like the Floyd Haters or the Martinez haters. The guys keeps beating quality opposition in front of him and then you call in the next guy to say he should beat before you say p4p. SMH. When he does beat Rigo you all will say he needs to fight Chris John or Caballero to be p4p. Boxing fans are so finicky maybe not as finicky as casual fans.


I dont think this is "finicky"... If he wasn't in such loaded divisions I could see your case but he instead picks guys like nishioka an older fighter coming off a very long layoff. In my view mares should not be fighting for a shot at donaire he is just as proven if not more than donaire. He won the tournament and took a rematch with agbeko and beat him soundly and now he's fighting a very good prime fighter in moreno. Out of the two I would expect nonito to be taking fights like this but he doesn't even ask for them, he's on his manny pacquiao saying he will fight whoever his promoter picks. I just expected more from nonito, not from his performance because he always finds a way to win but because of his competition. Now I really doubt he will stay at 122, and he will probably be fed a dismantled juanma on the way up
Cshel86
Donaire has yet to be tested himself, and he barely sells tickets...so why is he even flying off the handle about Rigondeaux proving himself and such?
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 03:34 PM) *
I'll say it again but in terms you can understand my friend. Nishioka has done more than the Cuban Prune and has certainly earned it. Shop worn or not Marquez still has a pulse. Nishioka confused and baffled a war veteran and fighter who always brings hell to any fighter on the other side of the ring. Nishioka defeated a good fighter in Gonzalez and defeated a very underated, terrific fighter in Veeraphol Sahaprom. Skillwise? Donaire is more skilled because he's faced different types of styles and better opposition. The Cuban Prune hasn't faced a fighter that can allow me to say..oh he has skills and he can take on Donaire. Your giving The Cuban Prune more than he can chew. Amateur experience is different than pro, if you guys want Rigo to taste defeat early in his late career then fine. Donaire isn't the right tree to be barking up against, let The Cuban Prune face someone like Vazquez Jr. or the winner of Mares/Moreno before he can face the Filipino Flash.


wow. he resorted to name calling. laugh.gif that oozes class.

for the record...marquez turned down a fight with rigondeaux before nishioka beat him. imo, rigondeaux ko's nishioka, marquez, vasquez and gonzalez. i get that you're a big donaire fan. i am too...i'm just not the type to have blind devotion for any fighter. your post sounds more like you are butt hurt that people want him to face rigondeaux. if he is indeed all you believe him to be...rigondeaux should be an easy pay day for him. i think u know he isn't.
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 04:24 PM) *
Wow...you guys sound like the Floyd Haters or the Martinez haters. The guys keeps beating quality opposition in front of him and then you call in the next guy to say he should beat before you say p4p. SMH. When he does beat Rigo you all will say he needs to fight Chris John or Caballero to be p4p. Boxing fans are so finicky maybe not as finicky as casual fans.


both are too high in weight. he should just focus on proving he's the best in the 122 division. i'd be convinced with a win over rigondeaux or mares. nothing extra needed.
mgrover
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 09:24 PM) *
Wow...you guys sound like the Floyd Haters or the Martinez haters. The guys keeps beating quality opposition in front of him and then you call in the next guy to say he should beat before you say p4p. SMH. When he does beat Rigo you all will say he needs to fight Chris John or Caballero to be p4p. Boxing fans are so finicky maybe not as finicky as casual fans.


that's exactly what it is, i hate donaire so much, and am on these boards to smear his good name. but realistically the p4p list has been getting on my nerves for a while, so fuck it. but to the matter at hand, when donaire only has half the title in his class, and tries to call that undisputed you know he's trying to sell something.
BoxingEinstein
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 16 2012, 04:48 PM) *
wow. he resorted to name calling. laugh.gif that oozes class.

for the record...marquez turned down a fight with rigondeaux before nishioka beat him. imo, rigondeaux ko's nishioka, marquez, vasquez and gonzalez. i get that you're a big donaire fan. i am too...i'm just not the type to have blind devotion for any fighter. your post sounds more like you are butt hurt that people want him to face rigondeaux. if he is indeed all you believe him to be...rigondeaux should be an easy pay day for him. i think u know he isn't.


I'm not name calling, he is a prune. Just like a prune, good for you (the fans), healthy (for the sport), brings something to the table, is old (prune's are one of the oldest fruits in the world). I'm not denying he's a good fighter but he is not worthy to face Donaire off the basis of his win over Ramos and Robert. Those are his best wins but compared to Donaire's accomplishments its like comparing Ice Cream cake to cornbread. I think Rigo stops all the people you said except gonzalez. Donaire wants the fight but he thinks like most logical people do what has Rigo done to garner a fight? Let Rigo fight the winner of Mares/Moreno and then maybe Vazquez Jr or Gonzalez then we can talk Donaire vs Rigondeaux.
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Oct 16 2012, 06:47 PM) *
that's exactly what it is, i hate donaire so much, and am on these boards to smear his good name. but realistically the p4p list has been getting on my nerves for a while, so fuck it. but to the matter at hand, when donaire only has half the title in his class, and tries to call that undisputed you know he's trying to sell something.


totally forgot about that bullshit. laugh.gif and leave it to hbo to shit on anyone they don't deem a champion by calling them 'belt holders' and then using misleading language like...the unified champ...and putting him at the top of the heap as if he were unified. maybe casual fans buy that bullshit but i don't.

still...can anyone please inform me when nishioka became the best in the division!? was it when he beat a shop worn beyond past it rafa marquez after his four wars with vasquez? was it when he beat jhonny gonzalez? help me out...i want understanding. laugh.gif is he the best because some shills were paid to say so?
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 07:05 PM) *
I'm not name calling, he is a prune. Just like a prune, good for you (the fans), healthy (for the sport), brings something to the table, is old (prune's are one of the oldest fruits in the world). I'm not denying he's a good fighter but he is not worthy to face Donaire off the basis of his win over Ramos and Robert. Those are his best wins but compared to Donaire's accomplishments its like comparing Ice Cream cake to cornbread. I think Rigo stops all the people you said except gonzalez. Donaire wants the fight but he thinks like most logical people do what has Rigo done to garner a fight? Let Rigo fight the winner of Mares/Moreno and then maybe Vazquez Jr or Gonzalez then we can talk Donaire vs Rigondeaux.


what did rafael concepcion, manuel vargas, volomir sydorenko, omar narvaez (114lb fighter), wv2 and jeffery mathebula do to get their shots? who did they beat? what were their magnificent accomplishments?

do they just give out olympic gold medals? how many 2 time gold medal winners have there been in boxing that went on to win a world championship in the pro ranks?


BoxingEinstein
QUOTE (mgrover @ Oct 16 2012, 06:47 PM) *
that's exactly what it is, i hate donaire so much, and am on these boards to smear his good name. but realistically the p4p list has been getting on my nerves for a while, so fuck it. but to the matter at hand, when donaire only has half the title in his class, and tries to call that undisputed you know he's trying to sell something.


That last statement maybe the truest thing you said but it doesn't knock off the fact that he beat a top guy in his class, a guy who hasn't lost in 8 years. Donaire is the man at the weight, like it or not. Rigo is just a guy with good skills and a deep amateur experience who happens to start late in his career. In the end of the day we will see who is the guy at 122 and like I been said it's always been Donaire.
BoxingEinstein
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 16 2012, 07:16 PM) *
what did rafael concepcion, manuel vargas, volomir sydorenko, omar narvaez (114lb fighter), wv2 and jeffery mathebula do to get their shots? who did they beat? what were their magnificent accomplishments?

do they just give out olympic gold medals? how many 2 time gold medal winners have there been in boxing that went on to win a world championship in the pro ranks?


I can name alot of them...there's Ward, Gamboa, Ali, Wlad, Both of the Spinks', DelaHoya, etc. WV2 was a former champ and came off a fight he was winning even though he lost (that one is understandable to not be worthy of a fight), Jeffrey is a champion and brought a different test to Donaire, Omare (understandable), but let's not forget he fought Montiel, Vic, Nishi, Tyson Marquez etc.

Now the Cuban who has he beaten? Rico Ramos, Robert Marroquin and Teon Kennedy? The hell is that? Donaire's mop ups whoops all of Rigo's mop ups hands down. How about he fights Agbek who called him out last month and even dared him to fight him. That would be the best way at this point to see where The Jackal is at. Until then Donaire is p4p and has done more.
Cshel86
Who has Donaire beat? Montiel? That was a nice knockout, but no. Niskioka? Not great. The only credit I give him, is the Vasquez Jr. fight, and the Darchinyan fight. Rigo has beaten Ramos, Marroquin, and Kennedy...two of the 3 of those fights were on big cards. So at this point, Donaire's name is just being pushed more than Rigo's.

Donaire's name has just been attached to Pacquiao's name because of his background and so on. Nonito has failed to make the most of it. The only 2 things that he has has in common with Manny is that, they're both Filipino, Arum runs them, and neither of them are good with contracts.

Remember how Nonito thought his contract was up and he was ready to jump ship? Little did he know, that 1-year "gotcha bitch!" extension was in his contract, hence why he's still with Arum fighting near no-hopers who are afraid to fight back, but he isn't good enough to embarrass them at will.

Rigo is at least able to stay in one division and make something happen, unlike a guy who keeps moving up and "running through" these no-hopers, and claiming that he cant find an opponent. As a matter of fact, I don't even know why fans HOPE for Donaire to fight a top level fighter, when that old wind bag is pulling the strings for him.
daprofessor
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 16 2012, 07:47 PM) *
I can name alot of them...there's Ward, Gamboa, Ali, Wlad, Both of the Spinks', DelaHoya, etc. WV2 was a former champ and came off a fight he was winning even though he lost (that one is understandable to not be worthy of a fight), Jeffrey is a champion and brought a different test to Donaire, Omare (understandable), but let's not forget he fought Montiel, Vic, Nishi, Tyson Marquez etc.

Now the Cuban who has he beaten? Rico Ramos, Robert Marroquin and Teon Kennedy? The hell is that? Donaire's mop ups whoops all of Rigo's mop ups hands down. How about he fights Agbek who called him out last month and even dared him to fight him. That would be the best way at this point to see where The Jackal is at. Until then Donaire is p4p and has done more.


none of those guys are 2-TIME GOLD MEDALIST....but that is a very impressive list! seems to me rigondeaux is in the company of greatness. thanks for pointing that out!

i'd love to see rigondeaux/agbeko. i didn't hear about him calling out rigondeaux...do u have a source?

if he should beat agbeko...that pretty much trumps donaires last 4 wins.
Cshel86
I may be in the minority here, but here it goes. I got to the Thomas & Mack Center during the final round of Rigondeaux/Marroquin, and I JUST got around to watching it in it's entirety.

I must say that Rigondeaux will have a hard time with Donaire, that's if he doesn't get stopped. Marroquin (who I will be watching more of), was able to catch Rigo with right hands, and rocked him in the 2nd and 9th round with a left hook, which really hurt Rigo.

With that in mind, Rigo needs to be fighting more than 3 times a year. I know that sounds weird, but he does need to build up his resume a bit. While he's doing that, Donaire needs to get off his high horse. Though he's had more fights, there are only a couple of them, that are actually noteworthy.
mgrover
QUOTE (BoxingEinstein @ Oct 17 2012, 12:30 AM) *
That last statement maybe the truest thing you said but it doesn't knock off the fact that he beat a top guy in his class, a guy who hasn't lost in 8 years. Donaire is the man at the weight, like it or not. Rigo is just a guy with good skills and a deep amateur experience who happens to start late in his career. In the end of the day we will see who is the guy at 122 and like I been said it's always been Donaire.


mehhh i dont think he'd lose to rigo, i just think he needs to take tougher fights, its as simple as that, i mean he fought a guy that was clearly afraid of his power from start to finish, there was only one way that fight was going to end. maybe after he beats the people at the top he can have mayweather status so to speak and fight whoever he fancies whether there of his caliber or not since realistically there's no one left.
Franchize
As soon as I saw this topic, I knew Cshel was ready it like the dog in the old cartoons "Let me at em, let me at em." lmao I used to think Shel was a lil too hard on Donaire. I dont know if it's an elephant in the room but there's definitely a sizeable four legged animal in there. As soon as I heard Roy Jones Jr, who's opinion I respect highly, going out on a limb for this guy, I had to re-evaluate my opinion about this guy. I have to give Cshel all the credit in the world for opening my eyes to this guy's legacy because really... I like Donaire. I think he's talented and I think he has a shot at making Manny Pacquiao the OTHER Filipino fighter. That being said, his last few performances have been technically subpar and sloppy. I think a lot of that has to do with Robert Garcia but still. Tighten up your craft and your resume'. You can't use that excuse of there not being any opponents anymore. Guys are out there now.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Franchize @ Oct 17 2012, 10:51 AM) *
As soon as I saw this topic, I knew Cshel was ready it like the dog in the old cartoons "Let me at em, let me at em." lmao I used to think Shel was a lil too hard on Donaire. I dont know if it's an elephant in the room but there's definitely a sizeable four legged animal in there. As soon as I heard Roy Jones Jr, who's opinion I respect highly, going out on a limb for this guy, I had to re-evaluate my opinion about this guy. I have to give Cshel all the credit in the world for opening my eyes to this guy's legacy because really... I like Donaire. I think he's talented and I think he has a shot at making Manny Pacquiao the OTHER Filipino fighter. That being said, his last few performances have been technically subpar and sloppy. I think a lot of that has to do with Robert Garcia but still. Tighten up your craft and your resume'. You can't use that excuse of there not being any opponents anymore. Guys are out there now.

laugh.gif

Thanks. I think Im hard on Donaire because of the Donaire fans, his sense of entitlement (at times), his shitty contract, and of course HBO, who nearly worships him. As much star power potential as Donaire has, Arum could've done a better job with his image, by keeping him close to Pacquiao on bug cards...like make his fight to co-main event or something.

Instead, Bob took a chance on keeping Nonito on doubleheaders, just to nuthugged by commentators as being the next Filipino star, and sticking him in there with guys that he's supposed to look good against. That's the formula, but Donaire happened to be TOO athletic for these guys, which made them reluctant to put up a fight, and they actually made him look bad in the process.

He may have good moments against these guys, or even finished them, but one thing wont leave the mind of fans because it keeps happening...that wack Navarez (sp) that put fans to sleep, the Nishioka fight where the guy didn't really want to throw, and the Vasquez fight where Nonito was getting popped with jabs and basic shit.

He was supposed to look good in these fights, instead, he left more questions to be answered. It's been a constant reminder how Shane exposed Manny. Though Manny dropped him and embarrassed him in that moment, the results of the fight from an impartial Pacquiao fan (if they exist), showed that Manny can't put the ring off to save his life. It got worse in the JMM fight months later, where he was doing that in-and-out jumping around nonsense.

The same has happened to Donaire over the past year or so, if he can't get in there and knock you out with ease (like he's spoiled himself with doing), then he'll look bad doing it 'til the final bell, or 'til he actually stops you. Other than that, he's just able to look super-athletic, which keeps fan awake. No need to be super-athletic, if you cant create properly create openings and make your opponent look like an ass...something RJJ was great at, regardless of his questionable competition.

NOW, I had to swallow my pride after watching Rigondeaux/Marroquin, and actually admit that I see Donaire beating him, most likely by stoppage. Rigo has a nice shell that he uses to slip/avoid punches, but I guess his problems kick in when he's backing away or in the middle of his punches. Marroquin caught him with two good left hooks that rocked him in the 2nd and the 9th. Donaire has a damn near superior left hook.

Rigo doesn't waste punches, but one thing's for sure, he WILL punch your ass. Lol. That may play into Donaire's type of fight. Either that, or Rigo can make Donaire get careless by forcing him to throw, and catching him in the process. Rigo looks the more vulnerable of the two, especially against a young Marroquin who took his chances, regardless of the possible return fire. He may have taken his chances too late in that fight, but he took them. That fight is all about who catches who first.

With this in mind, I'll give Donaire the victory, if a Rigo fight is signed, but as MG mentioned, Donaire just needs tougher fights. I wont crown him the top of anything, or the undisputed ( laugh.gif ) of anything, until then. I dont see how folks can crown him P4P of anything, when he cant stay in any division for more than 9-12 months. He cant blame it on lack of competition or guys not wanting to fight him...his promoter is the blame for that. Dude wants to control everything, which ultimately makes his fighters suffer.

If anything, I was put on game, to some of Donaire's lack of P4P qualities, which has more to do with his resume, and less to do with his skill. You can have all the skill in the world, but if you cant open your opponent up to your fight, or effectively bring it to them, then you're in question. You opened my eyes to hometown trainers though. laugh.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Oct 16 2012, 10:55 PM) *
I may be in the minority here, but here it goes. I got to the Thomas & Mack Center during the final round of Rigondeaux/Marroquin, and I JUST got around to watching it in it's entirety.

I must say that Rigondeaux will have a hard time with Donaire, that's if he doesn't get stopped. Marroquin (who I will be watching more of), was able to catch Rigo with right hands, and rocked him in the 2nd and 9th round with a left hook, which really hurt Rigo.

With that in mind, Rigo needs to be fighting more than 3 times a year. I know that sounds weird, but he does need to build up his resume a bit. While he's doing that, Donaire needs to get off his high horse. Though he's had more fights, there are only a couple of them, that are actually noteworthy.


i never got to see that fight. do u have a link?
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Oct 17 2012, 05:23 AM) *
mehhh i dont think he'd lose to rigo, i just think he needs to take tougher fights, its as simple as that, i mean he fought a guy that was clearly afraid of his power from start to finish, there was only one way that fight was going to end. maybe after he beats the people at the top he can have mayweather status so to speak and fight whoever he fancies whether there of his caliber or not since realistically there's no one left.


that about sums it up.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 17 2012, 01:24 PM) *
i never got to see that fight. do u have a link?

This is all I could find, since it wasn't on youtube. It's actually pretty good.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtmwht_20...marroquin_sport
daprofessor
to donaire's credit....i agree with max when he said that nonito set the bar high for himself when he ko'd darchinyan and montiel. those are two high caliber fighters that had never been ko'd previously. but after watching his fights with concepcion, vasquez and narvaez...he disappointed. the concepcion fight was a lot closer than the scores indicated and nonito just flat out ran most of the fight. like cshel said...he couldn't get out of the way of wv2's jabs...i forgot about mathebula who out landed him...and narvaez really did nothing...and neither did nonito. they crowned him too soon. we know he looks great against guys who come right at him...but with guys that can jab...put effective pressure....or have any parts of defense...he looks very normal.

with all that being said...i didn't see the maroquinn fight. i won't comment on it until i see it.
leonthegee
If Rigo is as good as everybody thinks he is than he can wait another year. Build up his fanbase. Fight a couple more national televised fights. Make it so Nonito cant duck him. Dont be a Margarito and call out somebody than get TKOd by Daniel Santos. It would be better for Rigo in the long run. Boxing is a business first and the only way both fighters can make the money they both want to make is if Rigo makes a name for himself first. It attracts more sponsers. HBO has invested a ton in Nonito and they dont want put him in harms way for just anybody.
daprofessor
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Oct 17 2012, 01:16 PM) *
If Rigo is as good as everybody thinks he is than he can wait another year. Build up his fanbase. Fight a couple more national televised fights. Make it so Nonito cant duck him. Dont be a Margarito and call out somebody than get TKOd by Daniel Santos. It would be better for Rigo in the long run. Boxing is a business first and the only way both fighters can make the money they both want to make is if Rigo makes a name for himself first. It attracts more sponsers. HBO has invested a ton in Nonito and they dont want put him in harms way for just anybody.


i partially agree with this.

i think this is the sort of fight that produces a star. the only way that fight gets huge is if there's some kind of tournament. or if they both fight on the same card once or twice...similar to what has been done in the past. sure, it'll raise awareness...but look what happened the last time arum tried to do that with gamboa and juanma. we had the same opportunity with khan/bradley...at least in that situation...i get why bradley balked at the khan fight. here we have an opportunity to clear any doubt. donaire has 2 titles....rigondeaux has 1, mares has the other. who was the last fighter to hold all 4 titles at once? these guys have an opportunity at greatness here. the paydays are inevitable. sitting around waiting for a super fight to grow...it'll never happen. they need to make it happen. i know mares wants it. he's fighting moreno next and has expressed a huge interest in fighting donaire and rigondeaux. rigondeaux also wants it...he's the one who extended his contract with the devil to get the fight. the only one that doesn't want it is donaire.
daprofessor
searching the rankings...i came across this poll on who donaire should fight next. interesting.

who should donaire face next?
flazi
i don't think rigo can wait. he is getting up there in age which is why they are moving him so quick.
leonthegee
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 17 2012, 12:01 PM) *
i partially agree with this.

i think this is the sort of fight that produces a star. the only way that fight gets huge is if there's some kind of tournament. or if they both fight on the same card once or twice...similar to what has been done in the past. sure, it'll raise awareness...but look what happened the last time arum tried to do that with gamboa and juanma. we had the same opportunity with khan/bradley...at least in that situation...i get why bradley balked at the khan fight. here we have an opportunity to clear any doubt. donaire has 2 titles....rigondeaux has 1, mares has the other. who was the last fighter to hold all 4 titles at once? these guys have an opportunity at greatness here. the paydays are inevitable. sitting around waiting for a super fight to grow...it'll never happen. they need to make it happen. i know mares wants it. he's fighting moreno next and has expressed a huge interest in fighting donaire and rigondeaux. rigondeaux also wants it...he's the one who extended his contract with the devil to get the fight. the only one that doesn't want it is donaire.


I believe Donaire does want it. Hes a fighter. Someone has to win and somebody has to loose. Every fighter has to excepts that thats why they fight. Otherwise theyd go get a real. Nonito took on Darch after he broke his brothers jaw. You dont get to that level being afraid of fighters. Now I do believe Arum has his own agenda. He cant afford to replace Nonito with Rigo until Rigo is ready to bring Nonito type income. We saw this with Bradley. Not only can Bradley not bring in Pacquiao income he cant even get a fight now.
daprofessor
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Oct 17 2012, 03:43 PM) *
I believe Donaire does want it. Hes a fighter. Someone has to win and somebody has to loose. Every fighter has to excepts that thats why they fight. Otherwise theyd go get a real. Nonito took on Darch after he broke his brothers jaw. You dont get to that level being afraid of fighters. Now I do believe Arum has his own agenda. He cant afford to replace Nonito with Rigo until Rigo is ready to bring Nonito type income. We saw this with Bradley. Not only can Bradley not bring in Pacquiao income he cant even get a fight now.


bradley would have never got that fight if he wasn't signed with arum. arum will milk a fighter and give bullshit match ups because the fan bases eat that shit up. i can go down a long list of examples...but i won't.

donaire had one sensational ko with arum...and that was against montiel. he tried to jump ship right after that. since then he's been matched very favorably against over matched opposition. he underwhelmed the fans against guys he should have beat impressively. sure...arum can keep running that game on donaire's filipino fans...but the fans who know the sport and expect better are going to question his p4p status. it's that simple. i get how the business works...and unfortunately, the history books and the hof don't acknowledge the fighters with the best business sense...they acknowledge the fighters who dare to be great and have amazing accomplishments.

i'm not interested in what arum can or can't afford. as a person who pays for premium cable just to watch boxing...i expect more. i will hold arum and hbo to higher expectations. if i was a share holder for hbo or toprank...or employed by them, i might feel differently. what i am interested in is seeing the best fight the best and watching future up-and-comers try to make their mark in the boxing world.
leonthegee
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 17 2012, 02:37 PM) *
bradley would have never got that fight if he wasn't signed with arum. arum will milk a fighter and give bullshit match ups because the fan bases eat that shit up. i can go down a long list of examples...but i won't.

donaire had one sensational ko with arum...and that was against montiel. he tried to jump ship right after that. since then he's been matched very favorably against over matched opposition. he underwhelmed the fans against guys he should have beat impressively. sure...arum can keep running that game on donaire's filipino fans...but the fans who know the sport and expect better are going to question his p4p status. it's that simple. i get how the business works...and unfortunately, the history books and the hof don't acknowledge the fighters with the best business sense...they acknowledge the fighters who dare to be great and have amazing accomplishments.

i'm not interested in what arum can or can't afford. as a person who pays for premium cable just to watch boxing...i expect more. i will hold arum and hbo to higher expectations. if i was a share holder for hbo or toprank...or employed by them, i might feel differently. what i am interested in is seeing the best fight the best and watching future up-and-comers try to make their mark in the boxing world.


I agree with you and im a fan too but fan is short for fanatic. Companies have to make a profit. And its fighters like Manny and Nonito that pay TRs bills. The big names pay the bills and support the Rigos, Vanes, and Bradleys of the world who dont bring in much revenue. With Cotto leaving somebodies got to fill that roster spot and recover that money Cotto wouldve brought in. So as a businessman I get it. If Rigos the real deal he will be there in a yr. Its about revenue in this circumstance.

Gamboa got out of his contract for 70 grrr. Why so low? Because its about revenue not skill. Gamboa wasnt a draw in this country. I can easily see Rigo doing the same thing in a yr if he doesnt earn for Arum. Arum needs to get the networks and sponsers behind Rigo. The US doesnt associate with Cuba so Rigos country cant support him like a Cotto or Canelo. Which leaves him fighting for chicken scratch. Canelo has a country ready to support him. Showtime and Corona beer love him and thats why everybody wants to fight him. Its not because Canelos the best. Mayweather chased Mosley and DLH for yrs before one of them through him a bone. Canelo doesnt have that problem. Its not one persons fault. Some people are grow up with parents that are teachers. Some are born into the Hilton family. You got the haves and have nots. Its how this country was built.
daprofessor
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Oct 17 2012, 06:10 PM) *
I agree with you and im a fan too but fan is short for fanatic. Companies have to make a profit. And its fighters like Manny and Nonito that pay TRs bills. The big names pay the bills and support the Rigos, Vanes, and Bradleys of the world who dont bring in much revenue. With Cotto leaving somebodies got to fill that roster spot and recover that money Cotto wouldve brought in. So as a businessman I get it. If Rigos the real deal he will be there in a yr. Its about revenue in this circumstance.

Gamboa got out of his contract for 70 grrr. Why so low? Because its about revenue not skill. Gamboa wasnt a draw in this country. I can easily see Rigo doing the same thing in a yr if he doesnt earn for Arum. Arum needs to get the networks and sponsers behind Rigo. The US doesnt associate with Cuba so Rigos country cant support him like a Cotto or Canelo. Which leaves him fighting for chicken scratch. Canelo has a country ready to support him. Showtime and Corona beer love him and thats why everybody wants to fight him. Its not because Canelos the best. Mayweather chased Mosley and DLH for yrs before one of them through him a bone. Canelo doesnt have that problem. Its not one persons fault. Some people are grow up with parents that are teachers. Some are born into the Hilton family. You got the haves and have nots. Its how this country was built.


floyd wasn't a big draw when he was with toprank. how much did he pay to get out of his contract? how did floyd get to be the big dog he is today? i get what you're saying about business...but there is more than one way to skin a cat. duran didn't have big sponsors or networks behind him. panama is a tiny country compared to cuba or the phillipines. same can be said for trinidad and puerto rico. there are plenty of cubans in the u.s. gamboa and rigondeaux both can be big stars...problem is...they're with the wrong promoter for that. neither guy is ray leonard/oscar de la hoya like...and they don't speak english....i seriously doubt he puts on any cuban power cards anytime soon. arum is the best because the other promoters suck. i think if don king of old were around today...guys like gamboa and rigondeaux would be bigger stars than what they are.
daprofessor
so it was looking like arce was going to be next....but again....he's pricing himself out of the fight.

he might as well go ahead and fight rigondeaux.

arce shouldn't even be considered until he redeems himself against rojas.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Oct 23 2012, 04:36 PM) *
so it was looking like arce was going to be next....but again....he's pricing himself out of the fight.

he might as well go ahead and fight rigondeaux.

arce shouldn't even be considered until he redeems himself against rojas.

Like the way you think.. is anyone else thinking rojas vs abner would be a barn burner?
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Oct 23 2012, 08:14 PM) *
Like the way you think.. is anyone else thinking rojas vs abner would be a barn burner?


i'm thinking rojas vs anyone. i just wanna see that kid fight again!!! laugh.gif
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