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daprofessor
there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.
Marcus
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 07:50 PM) *
there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.


I agree. I think it's pure boxing skills combined with the will to win/motivation from being robbed that "did pac in". And Marquez was always able to stagger Pacquiao. I just think in training camp he put huge emphasis on speed and strength because he realized that boxing skills werent enough to win the fight. He needed power to create a stoppage.

This entire sequence of events is interesting.

Theres valid speculation for Pacquiao using steroids. From him going from a knock out fighter that came from 105 able to make a bigger and stronger Cotto/Margarito quit. To having subpar performances as the issue of drug testing has become more controversial in boxing. (IM NOT ACCUSING HIM OF ANYTHING)

But here's where it gets interesting. Pacquiao and his team can't even make a case for drug testing because when Floyd began to make that a prevalent thing in boxing starting from '09 Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, Pacquiao wasn't with it when he was speculated of using PEDs. Even though Pacquaio turned back on his stance on drug testing in negotiations for the super fight, now for him to have open speculation about PED usage on Marquez's behalf makes him look like a fool. Had he accepted drug testing in '09, and tried to help Floyd change the sport as the second face of boxing, he could've made a strong case in against Marquez.

Freddie Roach just looks pathetic to make allegations with his history with PEDs in the sport. He should really keep his mouth shut because ALL of his fighters have been doing terrible this year.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Marcus @ Dec 11 2012, 08:15 PM) *
I agree. I think it's pure boxing skills combined with the will to win/motivation from being robbed that "did pac in". And Marquez was always able to stagger Pacquiao. I just think in training camp he put huge emphasis on speed and strength because he realized that boxing skills werent enough to win the fight. He needed power to create a stoppage.

This entire sequence of events is interesting.

Theres valid speculation for Pacquiao using steroids. From him going from a knock out fighter that came from 105 able to make a bigger and stronger Cotto/Margarito quit. To having subpar performances as the issue of drug testing has become more controversial in boxing. (IM NOT ACCUSING HIM OF ANYTHING)

But here's where it gets interesting. Pacquiao and his team can't even make a case for drug testing because when Floyd began to make that a prevalent thing in boxing starting from '09 Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, Pacquiao wasn't with it when he was speculated of using PEDs. Even though Pacquaio turned back on his stance on drug testing in negotiations for the super fight, now for him to have open speculation about PED usage on Marquez's behalf makes him look like a fool. Had he accepted drug testing in '09, and tried to help Floyd change the sport as the second face of boxing, he could've made a strong case in against Marquez.

Freddie Roach just looks pathetic to make allegations with his history with PEDs in the sport. He should really keep his mouth shut because ALL of his fighters have been doing terrible this year.


i find it very comical that the ppl suggesting that jmm is on something and pointing to his s&c coach as reason to believe are the very same ones who ignored all the signs of pac's possible usage. i also find it funny that those same ppl have never once questioned the dangerous contractual stipulations that led to pac's impressive victories over the years. they justify the trickery with a simple..."well, they signed the contract...they knew what they were getting into...blah,blah,blah..." where was the outcry to the commission then?

there is definitely a lot wrong with boxing....while i agree p.e.d's have no place in the sport....they are not the worst thing going on. there have been more deaths and brain injuries due to dehydration in boxing.

i think his fighters have been showing a serious lack of skill more than anything. that may be because he's spread way too thin.
Cshel86
Had Manny knocked JMM out cold, nobody would've even thought of PEDs and he would've still been the best fighter in the world. Now that JMM scored the KO (which came from a short calculated shot, the world gets to voice their opinions on who is on what. Weird, right?

When people started making a claim about Manny being on something, motherfuckers started getting charges pressed against them. Weird, right? But now that the 8-division champ gets his clock cleaned, the butthurt songcry about PEDs began. Weird, right?

As Professor said, JMM caught Manny with that same punch in the 1st fight, that dropped him in the 3rd round of the 4th fight. Difference is, the ropes were there to keep Manny up, and Im sure his punch resistance was better back then.

That KO punch was a product of timing on JMM's part, and carelessness on Manny's part.
checkleft
Juan doesn't have pillows for fists. The guy has 39? 40? Kos, add the fact that he is accurate that spells trouble for anybody.

As for pac he has lost muscle mass and he looked thick around the waist before the fight. Not saying its from roids but they do tend to make your body go bad after going off of them but I think its probably a lack of focus and not training very well.
The Original MrFactor
I think he's juicing. In his 20's, his body was never this chisseled. His shoulders look like he grew shoulder pads. The shot was a great shot and well timed and all, but the fact that this nearly 40 year old guy was able to keep that frantic pace for 6 rounds says a lot. The Marquez that fought Juan Diaz the first was good, but had trouble keeping pace and his resistance to the pillow puncher's punches nearly did him in in that first fight. He was not the same guy as far as conditioning. Timing was always there, but conditioning and strength was not.

Thats the thing about PED's, they dont necessarily make you a better fighter. They make your body better. Strength and conditioning gains can go a long way in a fight. Your tank is full all the time. Your power may increase. That clubbing overhand right that he dropped Pac with didnt have the same effect the 1st 3 fights. Now look at dude's shoulders and you can see the definite increases gained there, which would lead to more power from a punch like that. heredia, Marquez' strength and conditioning guy, is a known cheat and former dealer. The guy shouldnt be let anywhere near any professional athlete anywhere. He once said he can beat any tests?!?! I'm one who believes that if there's smoke, there's fire.
sduck
PEDs did do pac in, he toned down on that roid work, so now he can get knocked the f out.
chance1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 PM) *
there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.


Nice review on how you lay out the breakdown of this match!
mgrover
i thought the wild and aggressive thing did him in tbh, in that 6th round were he stunned Marquez, he launched a flurry at him, but he hardly landed anything, and Marquez landed some pretty solid shots on him there, Marquez was laying ground work all fight long by consistently landing that right hand. Only surprising thing was that Pac managed to score a KD with his right hand. But I guess thats because Marquez didn't expect it, he expected the left hand.
Cshel86
QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 12 2012, 07:49 AM) *
i thought the wild and aggressive thing did him in tbh

My sentiments exactly...I didn't even have to read the rest of the post.
Franchize
QUOTE (sduck @ Dec 12 2012, 05:30 AM) *
PEDs did do pac in, he toned down on that roid work, so now he can get knocked the f out.


LMAOOOOoo laugh.gif

End of the day, every inkling or clue I get about Marquez possibly using roids completely applies to Manny too. Therefore, I think they were on an even playing field and Manny just got that ass whooped lol
Gambit808
Rather he did or didn't use PED's, either way u look at it, just know that Karma's a bitch.
Tha Docta
i think PED's had alot to do with JMM's victory. Now i dont think anyone can use PED's and KO manny, but looking at JMM's body in that ring was like looking at a little body builder. these lower weights have never been kind to older boxers, yet here is a 39 yr old that all of a sudden is very muscular and posseses one punch power. i wanted JMM to get a decisive victory here, but after the fight it left me with the same feeling when Bonds broke the single season HR record. yes, i think JMM used steroids, and yes, i think they played a big part in this victory.
daprofessor
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Dec 12 2012, 02:13 AM) *
I think he's juicing. In his 20's, his body was never this chisseled. His shoulders look like he grew shoulder pads. The shot was a great shot and well timed and all, but the fact that this nearly 40 year old guy was able to keep that frantic pace for 6 rounds says a lot. The Marquez that fought Juan Diaz the first was good, but had trouble keeping pace and his resistance to the pillow puncher's punches nearly did him in in that first fight. He was not the same guy as far as conditioning. Timing was always there, but conditioning and strength was not.

Thats the thing about PED's, they dont necessarily make you a better fighter. They make your body better. Strength and conditioning gains can go a long way in a fight. Your tank is full all the time. Your power may increase. That clubbing overhand right that he dropped Pac with didnt have the same effect the 1st 3 fights. Now look at dude's shoulders and you can see the definite increases gained there, which would lead to more power from a punch like that. heredia, Marquez' strength and conditioning guy, is a known cheat and former dealer. The guy shouldnt be let anywhere near any professional athlete anywhere. He once said he can beat any tests?!?! I'm one who believes that if there's smoke, there's fire.


one look at 24/7 and u can see that jmm switched up his training regimen. he's doing explosive exercises that his muscles are responding to. i'm not familiar with his strength and conditioning coach's background...but i know great exercises when i see them. after a long career of doing the same shit over and over and over....ur muscles tend to stop responding to the usual exercises. when u switch it up, u shock the muscles...therefore they respond. his physique, imo, is the result of new (to him at least) training techniques and a scientific approach. no more piss, quail eggs and throwing rocks off the side of a mountain. this ain't rocky. laugh.gif
mitukczuk
I am kind of new to natural bodybuilding (been training for about 5 months now) but what can I say is this - with proper diet and good set of exercises, you can transform to a little beast in just about half a year. Marquez had a solid muscle foundation and as professor pointed out, his muscles are responding to new exercises, it is no surprise to me seeing JMM with that kind of physique. People don't seem to realize what kind of wonders you can do with your body with proper lifestyle. And if you are really serious about it... No PED will ever come close to what you can achieve...

JMM is not a shady character imo. I think he is clean but I am waiting for these results just to see all that badmouthing end.
checkleft
Instead of roids people should be blaming pac or roach. At the time of the knockout manny did a dumbass feint hopstepped his ass right into the lions den hands completely dropped guns blazing and he paid for it. Seriously go back and look at it. Even the newbies at the gym know better than that
VJones
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 03:03 PM) *
one look at 24/7 and u can see that jmm switched up his training regimen. he's doing explosive exercises that his muscles are responding to. i'm not familiar with his strength and conditioning coach's background...but i know great exercises when i see them. after a long career of doing the same shit over and over and over....ur muscles tend to stop responding to the usual exercises. when u switch it up, u shock the muscles...therefore they respond. his physique, imo, is the result of new (to him at least) training techniques and a scientific approach. no more piss, quail eggs and throwing rocks off the side of a mountain. this ain't rocky. laugh.gif


Precisely. I think the mythology built around Manny is making everyone a little batty and perhaps overly suspicious (okay and sure, Heredia's past transgressions don't help, but people, this is boxing...by nature, this sport has attracted some of the shadiest of characters! Find me someone clean (of character) in boxing and ill sell you a story! Even HBO's commentators have had run ins with the legal system. Boxing's just a business that attracts dirt. Simple as that. But a person should be innocent until PROVEN gulity. And if one's past (mistakes) is the litmus to who a person currently is, then many of us are in trouble!)

Manny Pacquioa is a fighter who has suffered knockouts before (granted its been a while), has been getting beat down by "bigger" men for the past few years (ruptured ear drum, battered face, broken ribs,etc. -- compliments of Cotto, Marg, and Clottey), has been staggered badly in previous fights by Juanma (and delightfully, by that sam damn punch), and to boot, he went back to that same overly aggressive style, forgetting that agression is a two-edged sword especially when facing a master adjustor/counter-puncher like JMM. It was only a matter of time, people. This is JMM's season. He is a scientist in the ring. You can literally see him thinking and setting things up. The HBO cheerleaders and those who bought into the myth of Pac's invincibility saw Marquez as vulnerable after that flash knock down in the 5th, when he seemed to hurt his leg or knee....but I swear I could hear the 'click' of Marquez figuring Manny out. smile.gif That overly-aggressive energy is perfectly suited for a counter-puncher, who's definitive aim is to use your energy against you. So Manny helped himself to that lullaby.

Oh Freddie Roach, why can't you teach defense and technique?? Smh.

Here's the other thing, let's not let this new (and yes, important) look at PEDs in the sport of boxing cause us to call "steroids" and insinuate illegalities every time a boxer looks "bigger" or "better". (JMM actually was only a pound heavier than a year ago at weigh-in, so while he looked more shredded and focused in certain areas, he wasn't actually bigger per say.)

Fact: there are plenty perfectly legal designer supplements (legal drugs, some of which were once illegal but are now governed by FDA) that give similar and sometimes equal boosts to anabolic steroids without currently known negative effects.

I'm a former athlete (track, basketball, martial arts). At the height of my competitive years, supplements like creatine, chromium, and other vitamins and minerals were staples in my fitness program. And while I definitely had to do the work and be genetically pre-disposed to good muscular structure, I can't deny the boost that sports medicine has given to athletes.

Bottom line: nothing at all nefarious about a veteran boxer dedicated for 25+ years, with an already high knocket record (similiar and equal to Pac's btw), building his strength with new science and undoubtly designer supplements, and knocking out an overly aggressive opponent. If JMM had knocked out anyone else in the boxing universe except Manny Pacquiao, nobody would utter a breath of suspicion.
VJones
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 12 2012, 03:17 PM) *
I am kind of new to natural bodybuilding (been training for about 5 months now) but what can I say is this - with proper diet and good set of exercises, you can transform to a little beast in just about half a year. Marquez had a solid muscle foundation and as professor pointed out, his muscles are responding to new exercises, it is no surprise to me seeing JMM with that kind of physique. People don't seem to realize what kind of wonders you can do with your body with proper lifestyle. And if you are really serious about it... No PED will ever come close to what you can achieve...

JMM is not a shady character imo. I think he is clean but I am waiting for these results just to see all that badmouthing end.


Indeed!
flazi
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 11 2012, 08:50 PM) *
there is a lot of talk going around about the possibility of jmm being on something....and him doing something he couldn't do in the previous 3 fights.

let's get it straight once and for all...

pac's own aggression did him in! go back and watch that video.

with the first knock down...jmm did a brilliant job of setting up the overhand right by throwing the left hook to the body. he landed a few times on pac to set the pattern. as jmm stepped in he motioned as if he was going for that same hook and instead delivered the overhand right which pac did not anticipate. anyone who knows boxing will tell you...IT'S THE SHOT YOU DON'T SEE COMING THAT HURTS U THE MOST!!!! and pac did not see that overhand right coming. it appeared to land on the temple. if you go back and watch their previous fights....jmm landed that shot before and it wobbled pac. factor in age...and wear and tear...and u have an explanation for the knockdown.

the KO...

pac was coming on after the knock down...and jmm was reeling a bit. the momentum shifted in pac's favor and he got more confident, aggressive and careless. as in previous bouts....jmm attacked...then retreated...drawing pac in during the final seconds of the round. pac lunged in aggressively with a jab and jmm timed him perfectly by sliding his head to the left and delivering an overhand right that was short and very compact. BOOM!!! LIGHTS OUT!!!!

pac outweighed jmm

pac was supposed to be the bigger puncher

jmm was not trying to box and score points in this fight.

he was going for the ko...it's that simple.

he had a much more aggressive stance in this fight.

a simple change in stance can be the difference between a scoring blow...and one that puts u to sleep.

boxing 101. this is what floyd did to corrales in their fight and also castillo did it to corrales for the first kd in their fight. i love it when guys set up punches this way. Toney did this a lot too as does Hopkins.

Marquez is clean. he is not bigger he is just more defined. his muscles are the same size just less fat on top of them. like me now, i look way better and more defined at 220 than i did at 230 and all i did was drop weight.
Marquez tried that ko punch earlier in the fight and hit manny with it so i know he was just waiting on another opportunity to try it again.
BoxingStill#1
Pacs undoing (in this fight) was a beautiful, perfectly chess move played by a brilliant boxer.

This was the classic brawler vs. Boxer finish.

The K.O,... a perfectly timed, perfectly thrown, perfectly planned right hand that had R.I.P all over it. Add this with the fact Marquez has settled comfortably into a new weight with newfound power, Pac had no choice but to go to sleep for a while..

But Pac isnt finished. Rest assured he gives hell to anyone who dares to brawl with him.

in short, he's not done, he's merely done with Marquez..

Now my wifi minutes are up on this cruise.. i go back now to clear waters, white sands, exotic women and strong drinks...
BigDDatHomey
PEDs or.not...it was a well timed shot. Watch the replay and watch JMM pause for a split second, keep his distance when Pac came in with a little movement backwards, then he launched the counter. It was beautiful and he used Mannys aggression against him.

BigDDatHomey
Speaking of whether he is finished or not..remember what Teddy always says...you'll never forget being put to sleep and youre never the same.
He didn't just get knocked.down...he got put to sleep...he got Deebo'd. Knocked totally da f#+%- out.

daprofessor
QUOTE (BigDDatHomey @ Dec 12 2012, 05:03 PM) *
Speaking of whether he is finished or not..remember what Teddy always says...you'll never forget being put to sleep and youre never the same.
He didn't just get knocked.down...he got put to sleep...he got Deebo'd. Knocked totally da f#+%- out.


i don't agree with that.

i think when a fighter takes a sustained beating and then gets ko'd...it's more detrimental to his psyche....and definitely much more difficult to come back from.

pac, like duran....and paul williams....and a few others that were put to sleep by single shots, will chalk this up as 'the one i didn't see coming' and it may even force him to focus on defense some.

only time will tell.
daprofessor
QUOTE (VJones @ Dec 12 2012, 03:13 PM) *
Precisely. I think the mythology built around Manny is making everyone a little batty and perhaps overly suspicious (okay and sure, Heredia's past transgressions don't help, but people, this is boxing...by nature, this sport has attracted some of the shadiest of characters! Find me someone clean (of character) in boxing and ill sell you a story! Even HBO's commentators have had run ins with the legal system. Boxing's just a business that attracts dirt. Simple as that. But a person should be innocent until PROVEN gulity. And if one's past (mistakes) is the litmus to who a person currently is, then many of us are in trouble!)

Manny Pacquioa is a fighter who has suffered knockouts before (granted its been a while), has been getting beat down by "bigger" men for the past few years (ruptured ear drum, battered face, broken ribs,etc. -- compliments of Cotto, Marg, and Clottey), has been staggered badly in previous fights by Juanma (and delightfully, by that sam damn punch), and to boot, he went back to that same overly aggressive style, forgetting that agression is a two-edged sword especially when facing a master adjustor/counter-puncher like JMM. It was only a matter of time, people. This is JMM's season. He is a scientist in the ring. You can literally see him thinking and setting things up. The HBO cheerleaders and those who bought into the myth of Pac's invincibility saw Marquez as vulnerable after that flash knock down in the 5th, when he seemed to hurt his leg or knee....but I swear I could hear the 'click' of Marquez figuring Manny out. smile.gif That overly-aggressive energy is perfectly suited for a counter-puncher, who's definitive aim is to use your energy against you. So Manny helped himself to that lullaby.

Oh Freddie Roach, why can't you teach defense and technique?? Smh.

Here's the other thing, let's not let this new (and yes, important) look at PEDs in the sport of boxing cause us to call "steroids" and insinuate illegalities every time a boxer looks "bigger" or "better". (JMM actually was only a pound heavier than a year ago at weigh-in, so while he looked more shredded and focused in certain areas, he wasn't actually bigger per say.)

Fact: there are plenty perfectly legal designer supplements (legal drugs, some of which were once illegal but are now governed by FDA) that give similar and sometimes equal boosts to anabolic steroids without currently known negative effects.

I'm a former athlete (track, basketball, martial arts). At the height of my competitive years, supplements like creatine, chromium, and other vitamins and minerals were staples in my fitness program. And while I definitely had to do the work and be genetically pre-disposed to good muscular structure, I can't deny the boost that sports medicine has given to athletes.

Bottom line: nothing at all nefarious about a veteran boxer dedicated for 25+ years, with an already high knocket record (similiar and equal to Pac's btw), building his strength with new science and undoubtly designer supplements, and knocking out an overly aggressive opponent. If JMM had knocked out anyone else in the boxing universe except Manny Pacquiao, nobody would utter a breath of suspicion.


great post...and exactly my thought as i watched marquez recuperate from the knockdown.
checkleft
I didn't really think it was that bad of a knockdown, sort of caught off balance and by surprise.
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 12 2012, 05:37 PM) *
I didn't really think it was that bad of a knockdown, sort of caught off balance and by surprise.


which knock down? pac or jmm?
Plah
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 12 2012, 09:15 PM) *
which knock down? pac or jmm?

I think he was talking about the KD Pac gave in round 5
checkleft
QUOTE (Plah @ Dec 12 2012, 11:00 PM) *
I think he was talking about the KD Pac gave in round 5


Yes sir
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 02:23 AM) *
Yes sir


pac busted marquez up a little with that knock down.
MaxPayne
Time for a basic Biology discussion.

A man stops growing in his mid-20's. He reaches peak physical strength in his late 20's. He maintains that strength into his early 30's. From age 35 onward, your testosterone levels fall off and you precipitously lose the athletic ability that you had in your peak years of 27 through 31 or so.

There's a reason why in most sports, people start to fall off from their early 30's onward.

During Marquez's peak years, he was fighting at 126 lbs. This weight class represents the height of his fully grown athletic abilities.

The idea that through weight straining and maintaining a diet, a man can transform his body works in the case of a growing man, who has a frame that is not fully filled and has room to grow, so to speak. This is why athletes can put on 10 - 15 pounds of muscle and gain a lot of strength. A younger body is also able to work out for extended periods of time, as your ability to heal from the weight-training is still great.

As you get older, you lose the ability to recover. Your metabolism slows down. The time taken to heal from injuries gets longer and longer.

There is simply no way that after a certain age, in the sport of boxing, that a man can gain the power needed to hurt naturally larger men.

Marquez fought Pacquiao 3 times before this most recent fights. In all of those fights, he hit Pacquiao with clean, precise and powerful right hand shots. Pacquiao was badly wobbled on several occasions.

However, he never went down and was never hurt to the point of being finished by a barrage of unanswered punches.

This is a critical point.

A 39 year old man suddenly gains the power to knock a man down brutally 2 times at a higher weight class than the one which he fought when he was at his athletic peak. Interesting.

A 39 year old man suddenly has a physique that he never had when his natural testosterone levels were at their highest (body musculature is directly related to the testosterone levels in a man's blood).

A 39 year old man suddenly has the ability to embark on an ambitious Cross Fit style training program that is centered around heavy weight training.

A 39 year old man who has never been known as a devastating one punch knockout power type of fighter suddenly does just that to a man who he has never hurt to that point before, and one who has taken the best shots of larger and stronger men than Marquez.

A 39 year old man who has tried fighting at this weight before only to look sluggish and lacking definite power suddenly gains explosive power.

Floyd Mayweather, in his post 130 lbs. boxing career, has seen a considerable drop in his power, which is natural. You reach a certain power level at your peak and then gradually lose that power over time. He has beaten much larger men because of pure skills and technique. Not through power.

Angel Heredia can say whatever he wants. In this day and age, testing standards are entire generations behind what is available for abuse. Nowadays, people don't even use "steroids". After all, why would you, when you can easily acquire so many steroid pre-cursors that start the process on a much more natural level (stimulating the body to produce more testosterone instead of artificial testosterone introduction).

Of course they're "confident that we would beat any test". It's because the tests are prehistoric.

The only reason I don't feel a sense of outright injustice is that Pacquiao himself has abused performance enhancing drugs, a claim that I may not be able to definitely prove, but which I am willing to absolutely bet my house on.

But once again, the idea that a man who at the twilight of his career can somehow gain the ability to make a dude who he has never truly hurt before do an incredible mattress commercial impersonation, is laughable at best.
mitukczuk
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Dec 13 2012, 05:56 AM) *
Time for a basic Biology discussion.

A man stops growing in his mid-20's. He reaches peak physical strength in his late 20's. He maintains that strength into his early 30's. From age 35 onward, your testosterone levels fall off and you precipitously lose the athletic ability that you had in your peak years of 27 through 31 or so.

There's a reason why in most sports, people start to fall off from their early 30's onward.

During Marquez's peak years, he was fighting at 126 lbs. This weight class represents the height of his fully grown athletic abilities.

The idea that through weight straining and maintaining a diet, a man can transform his body works in the case of a growing man, who has a frame that is not fully filled and has room to grow, so to speak. This is why athletes can put on 10 - 15 pounds of muscle and gain a lot of strength. A younger body is also able to work out for extended periods of time, as your ability to heal from the weight-training is still great.

As you get older, you lose the ability to recover. Your metabolism slows down. The time taken to heal from injuries gets longer and longer.

There is simply no way that after a certain age, in the sport of boxing, that a man can gain the power needed to hurt naturally larger men.

Marquez fought Pacquiao 3 times before this most recent fights. In all of those fights, he hit Pacquiao with clean, precise and powerful right hand shots. Pacquiao was badly wobbled on several occasions.

However, he never went down and was never hurt to the point of being finished by a barrage of unanswered punches.

This is a critical point.

A 39 year old man suddenly gains the power to knock a man down brutally 2 times at a higher weight class than the one which he fought when he was at his athletic peak. Interesting.

A 39 year old man suddenly has a physique that he never had when his natural testosterone levels were at their highest (body musculature is directly related to the testosterone levels in a man's blood).

A 39 year old man suddenly has the ability to embark on an ambitious Cross Fit style training program that is centered around heavy weight training.

A 39 year old man who has never been known as a devastating one punch knockout power type of fighter suddenly does just that to a man who he has never hurt to that point before, and one who has taken the best shots of larger and stronger men than Marquez.

A 39 year old man who has tried fighting at this weight before only to look sluggish and lacking definite power suddenly gains explosive power.

Floyd Mayweather, in his post 130 lbs. boxing career, has seen a considerable drop in his power, which is natural. You reach a certain power level at your peak and then gradually lose that power over time. He has beaten much larger men because of pure skills and technique. Not through power.

Angel Heredia can say whatever he wants. In this day and age, testing standards are entire generations behind what is available for abuse. Nowadays, people don't even use "steroids". After all, why would you, when you can easily acquire so many steroid pre-cursors that start the process on a much more natural level (stimulating the body to produce more testosterone instead of artificial testosterone introduction).

Of course they're "confident that we would beat any test". It's because the tests are prehistoric.

The only reason I don't feel a sense of outright injustice is that Pacquiao himself has abused performance enhancing drugs, a claim that I may not be able to definitely prove, but which I am willing to absolutely bet my house on.

But once again, the idea that a man who at the twilight of his career can somehow gain the ability to make a dude who he has never truly hurt before do an incredible mattress commercial impersonation, is laughable at best.


Very nice assesment, Max. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, Max.
mgrover
someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.
checkleft
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 07:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.

very good counter. Not only was Paul significantly younger he is known for having an iron chin. And I love what you said about how different people react differently to different methods of workouts. I'm not gonna get on board until the tests come back even tho marquez has a impeccable rep but it is definitely MORE than possible for an older man to gain the physique and strength seems to have gotten naturally. Idk why it seems so amazing to people, I guess dedication hard work and determination are steroids now...? Now again I'm not saying hes noy roided but its far from impossible for someone to get that way in their 40s. Seen it not only from boxers but also basketball players and just random old people I know at the gym PAST 40

QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 08:18 AM) *
someone once said if you live by the sword you die by the sword, am saying this for the last time, Pac was always aggressive, he was always a fighter that came out guns blazing and that's why people loved to watch him.

In recent years he slowed down and maybe took a more tactical approach, maybe not that much more tactical but that was a good thing since he was getting older and getting hit am sure took its toll on him, at the end of the day he is human.

So Marquez lands that perfect right hand, I think the reason Pac was out cold from a few reasons, the wear and tear his body has been through (Cotto, Margs and Clottey all managed to damage him), father time I think finally caught up with him. Am sure Marquez's new training had something to do with it whether it was legal or not. Aggression is a double edged sword and Pac finally after all these years paid the price.

But realistically aside from his 3rd fight with Marquez who has Pac fought that has had considerable punching power? Mosley and Bradley hardly really hurt Pac mostly because Mosley couldn't really touch him and Bradley had no real power. It's been almost two years since he's fought someone with that power to actually hurt him. I always wondered did his body simply become acustom to there power, but then for two years he was against light touches and then is hit by this monster right hand. Just a theory.

Great point also. Also back to the Paul Williams shot, he had taken those kinds of punches throughout his career. But that one punch put his lights out. Maybe, as you said it was his resistance wearing down or being unaware of the punch coming or a combination of the two. Either way pac was no defensive genius by any means and him rushing in like a fool with his hands almost completely dropped doesn't help either. That punch was made for bad moves like that
Franchize
To be honest, you didn't need to be a heavy power puncher to knock Manny out with that punch. Any fighter not named Malinaggi could have knocked Manny out if they hit him how Marquez hit him. Not to take anything away from Marquez, but it was mor so the placement and timing of the punch that KO'd Manny. It was like Floyd's check left that knocked down Hatton but better. Floyd had hit Hatton with way harder punches that fight. That check left was just perfectly placed and timed. As checkleft said (no pun intended), Manny literally jumped into the punch. It was like a bunny hop onto Marquez fist. I told my dad it was like when you see those blooper videos of people running into glass doors. Now imagine the glass door was moving toward them at the same speed as they were running. That's what happened to Manny. Only problem is, Marquez fist won't shatter like the door would so the only other thing that can happen is for Manny to go night night
pimpfighterROQ
It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez gave Pac was quadrupled in power because of Pac foolishly rushing in. You only have to look how Pac fell down. He fell face down from his position when he was hit down flat on the floor. Now take the Paul williams knockout in comparison. Identical punch but Paul got ktfo going timber on the direction the punch was aimed for. Look at the third Pac/Marquez fight around round 4. Pac was hit with the same knockout punch but no momentum so his chin withstood it. So yes I do think Pac's momentum doubled Marquez knockout punch with him rushing in. Nothing THAT unusual here folks.


However...

That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.


Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 smile.gif
Tha Docta
I just cannot for the life of me remember a 39 yr old man at these lower weights being successful without the use of PED's. and put that together with how marquez's body looked, i say its a no brainer. as a matter of fact, even these guys at higher weights that are being successful at advanced ages are suspect. james toney and antonio tarver come to mind as guys that were caught.

marquez seems like a very good man to me. very loyal and a good family man. however, the competitive nature in these guys is off the charts. its what makes them successful. and i have a hard time believing that a man who drank his own piss because he thought it would give him an advantage wouldnt take some PED's to help him succeed.
checkleft
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 11:01 AM) *
It would be a good arguement that the shot Marquez gave Pac was quadrupled in power because of Pac foolishly rushing in. You only have to look how Pac fell down. He fell face down from his position when he was hit down flat on the floor. Now take the Paul williams knockout in comparison. Identical punch but Paul got ktfo going timber on the direction the punch was aimed for. Look at the third Pac/Marquez fight around round 4. Pac was hit with the same knockout punch but no momentum so his chin withstood it. So yes I do think Pac's momentum doubled Marquez knockout punch with him rushing in. Nothing THAT unusual here folks.


However...

That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.


Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 smile.gif


You bring up a great discussion here w/ the different body builds (Bradley being buffer than marquez) but in boxing over time I've seen that its the slimmer fighters w/ more knockout power. See in boxing its more about torque and body motions not just physical strength. Look at guys like nonito or Pavlic who have barely any muscle tone at all and crack pretty hard. Corrales matthysse maidana (even though he has gotten bigger since the move up) mayweather at the lower weight classes had something like an 80% ko ratio. Being muscular in boxing doesn't necessarily convert to being powerful. Some people even say its a disadvantage, marquez did look slower and it definitely could have been because of the muscle built.
mgrover
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Dec 13 2012, 03:01 PM) *
That 3rd round knockdown is a suspect. I first thought How the fuck did Marquez muster enough power to knockdown Pac. I mean it was the same damn punch for the whole 3 fights. Punch the body 3x, feint then punch the head. Pac falls for it all 3 fights. Wobbled Pac especially the first one if you watch the highlight but never knocked him down. Marquez definitely improved his punching power, the question is how?? Tim bradley is more muscular than Pac and Marquez combined and he is pillow as fuck. Kinda reminds me of that Rocky movie against that Russian guy lol.

Lets see the drug results on Dec 17 smile.gif


tbf i thought pac was leaning back slightly from that punch and was off balance but whatever
daprofessor
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.


the bolded says it all...

plus, u have to take into account...pac has been on the decline. he's looked more and more human with each passing bout. when those reflexes slow down by a fraction of a second...this is what happens. anybody remember jones/tarver 2? jones has always been a highly athletic athlete. when that athleticism slowed down just a little bit...we all saw what happened. same applies to pac. he's always been extremely flawed and has gotten away with many mistakes because he lacks basic skills. marquez exploited that. so in my opinion...i believe it's a combination of jmm getting up for the fight...and pac's athletic ability diminishing just a bit.
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Dec 13 2012, 12:45 PM) *
You bring up a great discussion here w/ the different body builds (Bradley being buffer than marquez) but in boxing over time I've seen that its the slimmer fighters w/ more knockout power. See in boxing its more about torque and body motions not just physical strength. Look at guys like nonito or Pavlic who have barely any muscle tone at all and crack pretty hard. Corrales matthysse maidana (even though he has gotten bigger since the move up) mayweather at the lower weight classes had something like an 80% ko ratio. Being muscular in boxing doesn't necessarily convert to being powerful. Some people even say its a disadvantage, marquez did look slower and it definitely could have been because of the muscle built.


the difference in what i saw between this marquez...and the marquez of old...he was definitely loading up more on the shots and went about setting them up better in a more economical fashion. it's exactly what nacho said they were going to do. they were still going to box smart...but this time they wanted to hurt pac. last time they were looking to out point him. it's definitely a gamble because usually when u look for the knock out u get knocked out. he kept just enough of the boxing to be elusive and set up that shot. pac was clearly much more aggressive this time around and as a result he was more reckless. a lot of freddie roach fighters are guilty of this. it's a flaw that i noticed since day one. they focus more on offense than defense.
Cshel86
QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 12 2012, 04:30 PM) *
Now my wifi minutes are up on this cruise.. i go back now to clear waters, white sands, exotic women and strong drinks...

WTF? How did I miss this? Now Im hatin' a bit! cool.gif

QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 06:32 AM) *
Very nice assesment, C'. You have made some very critical points.

However, you can boost your testosterone production via lots of natural sources. For instance seeds, peanuts these all contain oils that can boost the testosterone production in your body. That's why they are a key in good diet. I am not saying that a handful of peanuts will get you to the same levels as you had in late twenties but they do help.
Also, strength and power doesn't peak at the same time as the body and natural ability and at the same time one fills up his frame. Man is at his strongest at around 40 years of age.
Another thing is, you can transform from shit to fit in your late thirties no problem. Also, every body is different and reacts to new routines and exercises in a different way. Therefore one can't make assesments about somebody elses physique. What works for one, may not work for another.

I maintain, that reaching the physique Marquez has right now is achievable naturally. But i repeat, i too am waiting for the results ! I don't think the KO is a result of one punch knock out power, but the result of its "invisibility". Is Martinez a one punch knock out artist ? Nope. Did he KTFOd Williams with one punch? Yes. Is he in his late thirties ? Yes. Is there any controversy surrounding that KO ? Not really.
The main problem are the fighters involved and the history that they share. That's why the talk has immediatly begun imo.

But again, you hit the nail with some of your points, C'.

Thanks Mit! Thanks for giving me full credit for Max's post...no way in hell I could think on that level, even on my best day. laugh.gif
daprofessor
there are definitely accusations flying around...and i don't believe them for a second. just like i didn't believe them when they were hurled at pac.

in pac's situation i believe there were other factors at work that made him look invincible. i've gone over these several times in other posts on other forums and was viciously attacked and banned for saying it. ppl have very little understanding when it comes to these things and there are plenty of ways of making a guy look invincible when u are in the drivers seat.

1. selective matchmaking- picking opponents who are shop worn or have come off of recent beat downs and are just diminished enough to look good...but not too good.

2. weight drain game- make sure that said fighter has to struggle to make weight therefore...he has a fight before the fight. it's no secret that dehydration severely diminishes an athlete.

3. non-disclosed contractual stipulations- now this is speculation on my part...but i've seen evidence of it. i believe that pac's opponents have had restrictions placed upon them for re-hydration. no one has openly admitted to it, but all the signs are there.

4. trainer issues- i don't know if it was by design...or it just worked in their favor but dlh, hatton, cotto, clottey and margarito all had new trainers or were having issues with their trainers at the time pac fought them. just coincidence? who knows.

5. having access to your opponents training footage. i won't mention where i heard it...but i heard it.

when all things were equal...and none of the above mentioned things came into play, pac looked very ordinary.
Cshel86
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 PM) *
3. non-disclosed contractual stipulations- now this is speculation on my part...but i've seen evidence of it. i believe that pac's opponents have had restrictions placed upon them for re-hydration. no one has openly admitted to it, but all the signs are there.

4. trainer issues- i don't know if it was by design...or it just worked in their favor but dlh, hatton, cotto, clottey and margarito all had new trainers or were having issues with their trainers at the time pac fought them. just coincidence? who knows.

5. having access to your opponents training footage. i won't mention where i heard it...but i heard it.

Oh how I'd love to be a fly on the wall for some of this shit (3 and 5). #4 was clearly evident, now that you brought it up!
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 03:21 PM) *
Oh how I'd love to be a fly on the wall for some of this shit (3 and 5). #4 was clearly evident, now that you brought it up!


u and me both!
Tha Docta
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 03:11 PM) *
there are definitely accusations flying around...and i don't believe them for a second. just like i didn't believe them when they were hurled at pac.

in pac's situation i believe there were other factors at work that made him look invincible. i've gone over these several times in other posts on other forums and was viciously attacked and banned for saying it. ppl have very little understanding when it comes to these things and there are plenty of ways of making a guy look invincible when u are in the drivers seat.

1. selective matchmaking- picking opponents who are shop worn or have come off of recent beat downs and are just diminished enough to look good...but not too good.

2. weight drain game- make sure that said fighter has to struggle to make weight therefore...he has a fight before the fight. it's no secret that dehydration severely diminishes an athlete.

3. non-disclosed contractual stipulations- now this is speculation on my part...but i've seen evidence of it. i believe that pac's opponents have had restrictions placed upon them for re-hydration. no one has openly admitted to it, but all the signs are there.

4. trainer issues- i don't know if it was by design...or it just worked in their favor but dlh, hatton, cotto, clottey and margarito all had new trainers or were having issues with their trainers at the time pac fought them. just coincidence? who knows.

5. having access to your opponents training footage. i won't mention where i heard it...but i heard it.

when all things were equal...and none of the above mentioned things came into play, pac looked very ordinary.



I understand people not liking manny because of his obsessive fans, but to call him an ordinary fighter just makes you look like you are not a knowledgeable fan. anybodies resume can be completely dissected if you want to pick it apart. and that goes for the best fighters of all time. the guy is a no doubt HOF fighter. dont let your hatred for his fans cloud your judgement.
mitukczuk
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Dec 13 2012, 02:56 PM) *
Thanks Mit! Thanks for giving me full credit for Max's post...no way in hell I could think on that level, even on my best day. laugh.gif


lol. I seem to have gotten into some kind of a habit with my posts. Sorry to both of you Max and C'.
Cshel86
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Dec 13 2012, 05:00 PM) *
lol. I seem to have gotten into some kind of a habit with my posts. Sorry to both of you Max and C'.

Ha! Im cool with the mistake...just hope that Max doesn't try to sue me for it! cool.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (Tha Docta @ Dec 13 2012, 03:48 PM) *
I understand people not liking manny because of his obsessive fans, but to call him an ordinary fighter just makes you look like you are not a knowledgeable fan. anybodies resume can be completely dissected if you want to pick it apart. and that goes for the best fighters of all time. the guy is a no doubt HOF fighter. dont let your hatred for his fans cloud your judgement.


looking ordinary against great fighters like marquez and bradley isn't the same as calling him ordinary. i take nothing from manny. the guy we saw in there with morales, barrera, marquez...etc...is far from ordinary.

he looked extraordinary against hatton, dlh, cotto and margarito for all the reasons i stated. i'm just calling it like i see it. i don't hate his fans. i get their fanaticism.
mgrover
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Dec 13 2012, 11:08 PM) *
looking ordinary against great fighters like marquez and bradley isn't the same as calling him ordinary. i take nothing from manny. the guy we saw in there with morales, barrera, marquez...etc...is far from ordinary.

he looked extraordinary against hatton, dlh, cotto and margarito for all the reasons i stated. i'm just calling it like i see it. i don't hate his fans. i get their fanaticism.


because hes the GOAT duh tongue.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 13 2012, 06:18 PM) *
because hes the GOAT duh tongue.gif


laugh.gif
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