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wolterb
Would Foreman have beaten Ali in a rematch had it taken place in 74' or within a couple years after?

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My opinion is, Yes he absolutely would have! Ali is thee luckiest boxer on this planet when it came to his career (imho). One such example is the outcome of the rumble in the jungle. If fate exists, it appeared to be on the side of Ali in that first fight.

Had a rematch happened, Foreman would've battered Ali and maybe put him on the canvas too on way to a decision win.

What does everyone else think?
mgrover
probably but in the mans defence at that point in his career he wasn't the same fighter, thats why i see it such a big victory because he didn't quite have his legs to help him and he still came out the victor
BoxingStill#1
Its hard to speculate about "what could have been" in this sport,.

Also "luck" isnt something that happens very often

You are given 12 rounds to get the job done, (in those days 15)... Ali's win over foreman was an example of his ring intelligence and athleticism... did foreman crack, hell yea,.. but its hard to say how a rematch would have played..

wolterb
QUOTE (mgrover @ Dec 30 2012, 04:41 PM) *
probably but in the mans defence at that point in his career he wasn't the same fighter, thats why i see it such a big victory because he didn't quite have his legs to help him and he still came out the victor


I agree completely. this thread is not intended to diminish ali in anyway.

QUOTE (BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 30 2012, 10:04 PM) *
Its hard to speculate about "what could have been" in this sport,.

Also "luck" isnt something that happens very often

You are given 12 rounds to get the job done, (in those days 15)... Ali's win over foreman was an example of his ring intelligence and athleticism... did foreman crack, hell yea,.. but its hard to say how a rematch would have played..


Speculation in 'this sport' is cake but alright. you don't like my word choice of luck - may i substitute it with fortunate? Ali was fortunate that Foreman played into his strategy so well. Not everyone would have. On another night Foreman would not have, in a rematch he sure as hell would not have. Also, I would say the rumble in the jungle is indicative of when Ali won fights based on his popularity and sheer tenacity and less and less by ring intelligence or athleticism. It is hard to say how a rematch would have played, but condescending to state that in a thread begging the very question.
Franchize
I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree. Firstly, I wouldn't call Ali lucky at all. Having to endure a ban from the sport in the prominent years of your career is far from lucky. Secondly, even hearing Foreman speak now, Ali took more than a victory from him that night. He stripped George of his cloak of invincibility. Ali knocked a piece of pride out of George as well as hit witts. to say Foreman would have regained that and been able to dominate Ali in a rematch is really hard to speculate.
neophyte7

Speculation in 'this sport' is cake but alright. you don't like my word choice of luck - may i substitute it with fortunate? Ali was fortunate that Foreman played into his strategy so well. Not everyone would have. On another night Foreman would not have, in a rematch he sure as hell would not have. Also, I would say the rumble in the jungle is indicative of when Ali won fights based on his popularity and sheer tenacity and less and less by ring intelligence or athleticism. It is hard to say how a rematch would have played, but condescending to state that in a thread begging the very question.
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There is no such thing as luck in having someone play into well thought out strategy.. well, maybe a tiny bit but overall Ali displayed brilliant execution of strategy. Foreman in a rematch would have been a formidable foe because of course he would make adjustments, but the only way he could have won is if Ali was diminished physically to the point of not being able to execute sound strategy. Other than try to swarm and pressure Ali, Foreman would have no chance. So it would all boil down to the physical condition of Ali...
daprofessor
ali definitely benefitted from foreman being cut in sparring...and the fight being postponed. if mobutu had not insisted on them staying in zaire until the cut healed and the fight materialized...it might have played out differently. foreman called ali out for the rematch...but it never happened. i can't say for sure how the rematch would have played out. ali may have realized he got away with one and didn't feel good about the rematch. who knows?
neophyte7
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 1 2013, 04:11 AM) *
ali definitely benefitted from foreman being cut in sparring...and the fight being postponed. if mobutu had not insisted on them staying in zaire until the cut healed and the fight materialized...it might have played out differently. foreman called ali out for the rematch...but it never happened. i can't say for sure how the rematch would have played out. ali may have realized he got away with one and didn't feel good about the rematch. who knows?




What Ali endured physically in this bout was beyond HUMAN capability... He was advised by Herbert Muhammad to quit boxing after this bout... No way in hell he could subject his body to the same torture. He didn't get away with one, yet he did what could only be done one time and one time only- FOREMAN was a juggernaut
daprofessor
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Jan 5 2013, 11:18 PM) *
What Ali endured physically in this bout was beyond HUMAN capability... He was advised by Herbert Muhammad to quit boxing after this bout... No way in hell he could subject his body to the same torture. He didn't get away with one, yet he did what could only be done one time and one time only- FOREMAN was a juggernaut


herbert muhammad was elijah muhammads son and was only in the position of manager because of his father. he really was NOT a boxing person. i thought ali took more punishment in the last fight with frazier than the fight with foreman.
neophyte7
Ali had nothing to prove after Foreman... should have quit.. his remaining fights just furthered his physical demise...
daprofessor
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Jan 7 2013, 03:28 PM) *
Ali had nothing to prove after Foreman... should have quit.. his remaining fights just furthered his physical demise...


that would have been the perfect spot to hang them up. hind sight is 20/20.

marquez should walk into the sunset now. nothing left to prove.
wolterb
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 1 2013, 04:11 AM) *
ali definitely benefitted from foreman being cut in sparring...and the fight being postponed. if mobutu had not insisted on them staying in zaire until the cut healed and the fight materialized...it might have played out differently. foreman called ali out for the rematch...but it never happened. i can't say for sure how the rematch would have played out. ali may have realized he got away with one and didn't feel good about the rematch. who knows?


I find all of that stuff to be interesting...the cut, mobutu and the event taking place in zaire in general. I think the manner in which Ali handled the entire episode is part of what makes him so great.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 6 2013, 05:12 PM) *
herbert muhammad was elijah muhammads son and was only in the position of manager because of his father. he really was NOT a boxing person. i thought ali took more punishment in the last fight with frazier than the fight with foreman.


I agree...even the first fight with Frazier looked to me more devastating.
with the Foreman bout at least Ali was braced against ropes and saw most of the punches coming (though that is not saying too much). Fraziers punches looked more compact and on the number.
daprofessor
QUOTE (wolterb @ Jan 8 2013, 05:13 PM) *
I find all of that stuff to be interesting...the cut, mobutu and the event taking place in zaire in general. I think the manner in which Ali handled the entire episode is part of what makes him so great.



I agree...even the first fight with Frazier looked to me more devastating.
with the Foreman bout at least Ali was braced against ropes and saw most of the punches coming (though that is not saying too much). Fraziers punches looked more compact and on the number.



frazier dropped him and broke his jaw...that says it all. ali taunted and toyed with foreman. it's the shots u don't see coming that do the most damage.
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