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Dolimite
Boxing is a business the more popular you are the more money and fan base a fighter has. It seems sometimes in the sport of boxing a fighter's popular can cover the lack of skill a fighter has. For example: Mikey Garcia, an up and coming fighter isn't your typical Mexican fighter he moves around jabs and his defense, his skills are rising fast but his popularity isn't where it should be. Andrea Ward is another example, his skills are off the chart but his popularity is so so. Sergio Martinez who is a top Middle weight has great skills but his popularity isn't where it should be. Juan Manuel Marquez is just now getting the publicity that he should have already had because his skill set is very high. Shane Mosley would be the poster child for this category. Sweet Pea never got the crowd to wear it needed to be and Roy Jones as quiet as it is kept.

"Fighters" like Chavez Jr. who shouldn't even be in the ring has a fan base that the aforementioned fighters should have. The kid is a rock star with an average skill set, and that is due to his laziness. Saul Alvarez who has yet to be tested and his opponents has only showcased his strengths has a following of a mega rock star. Michael Jackson status. Others who make this list would be Manny Pacquiao (Pacquiao's boxing skill not style of fighting is what I am looking at. He is an exciting fighter and has had great wars and fights but his skill level as a boxer is average at best) is a a demigod. Paulie Maliggini (spelling is off) and Gattie (RIP) would also be in this category. Again I am looking at the skill set not the type of fighter that they are.

It is very rare that you have a fighter who is popular and has the skill set to match his popularity: Ali, Foreman, Joe Louis, Frasier, Hearns, Sugar Robinson, Mayweather, Duran, De La Hoya, Tyson and a slue of others.

If a boxer has the popularity but not the skill set should that boxer be praised as being one of the premier fighters or should they be viewed as hype, the boxer with the skill set and not the popularity or fan base should they be looked as a top fighter with no fan base or should promoters and cable companies create a venue for their skill set to be seen?
BigDDatHomey
I'm thinking that if you don't have the skills, sooner or later, you will be exposed. Boxing is a business, however, people don't typically follow losers.

Skills pay the bills....
Dolimite
QUOTE (BigDDatHomey @ Jan 26 2013, 04:07 PM) *
I'm thinking that if you don't have the skills, sooner or later, you will be exposed. Boxing is a business, however, people don't typically follow losers.

Skills pay the bills....


Chavez Jr. has money and he has little skills. Pac is a very rich man and he and he has done very well for himself, especially for a boxer with little technical and fighting skills, no jab and average defense well just average. Paulie Magic Man isn't that great and he is doing damn well with a good following.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jan 26 2013, 10:52 AM) *
Boxing is a business the more popular you are the more money and fan base a fighter has. It seems sometimes in the sport of boxing a fighter's popular can cover the lack of skill a fighter has. For example: Mikey Garcia, an up and coming fighter isn't your typical Mexican fighter he moves around jabs and his defense, his skills are rising fast but his popularity isn't where it should be. Andrea Ward is another example, his skills are off the chart but his popularity is so so. Sergio Martinez who is a top Middle weight has great skills but his popularity isn't where it should be. Juan Manuel Marquez is just now getting the publicity that he should have already had because his skill set is very high. Shane Mosley would be the poster child for this category. Sweet Pea never got the crowd to wear it needed to be and Roy Jones as quiet as it is kept.

"Fighters" like Chavez Jr. who shouldn't even be in the ring has a fan base that the aforementioned fighters should have. The kid is a rock star with an average skill set, and that is due to his laziness. Saul Alvarez who has yet to be tested and his opponents has only showcased his strengths has a following of a mega rock star. Michael Jackson status. Others who make this list would be Manny Pacquiao (Pacquiao's boxing skill not style of fighting is what I am looking at. He is an exciting fighter and has had great wars and fights but his skill level as a boxer is average at best) is a a demigod. Paulie Maliggini (spelling is off) and Gattie (RIP) would also be in this category. Again I am looking at the skill set not the type of fighter that they are.

It is very rare that you have a fighter who is popular and has the skill set to match his popularity: Ali, Foreman, Joe Louis, Frasier, Hearns, Sugar Robinson, Mayweather, Duran, De La Hoya, Tyson and a slue of others.

If a boxer has the popularity but not the skill set should that boxer be praised as being one of the premier fighters or should they be viewed as hype, the boxer with the skill set and not the popularity or fan base should they be looked as a top fighter with no fan base or should promoters and cable companies create a venue for their skill set to be seen?

You're right. Boxers aren't born popular, they're created. Some are more "fan friendly" (not a 'fan' of that phrase) than others, but the popular boxers that are average are definitely pushed in that direction by preferential press, cable etc. treatment.

I put most of the blame on the shoulders of the boxing press. They don't inform properly, they tend to misinform re. who's who and what's what.
mgrover
The media really, although am not sure how someone like Chavez Jr is popular, guy uses every advantage he can get and I hate the motherfucker
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jan 27 2013, 05:58 AM) *
The media really, although am not sure how someone like Chavez Jr is popular, guy uses every advantage he can get and I hate the motherfucker



I agree with you. I hate that MF'er too! He's popular because of his father's legacy. Without his daddy, Chavez Jr is Donny Lalonde, just waiting for SRL to come handle him. Jr gets away with bloody murder, either coming in 20lbs over the limit on fight night or just juicing and not havint to take piss tests. All this because he belongs to one of Mexico's royal families of boxing... I hate him and was glad to see Serge beat him down.
checkleft
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jan 26 2013, 07:43 PM) *
Chavez Jr. has money and he has little skills. Pac is a very rich man and he and he has done very well for himself, especially for a boxer with little technical and fighting skills, no jab and average defense well just average. Paulie Magic Man isn't that great and he is doing damn well with a good following.

Chavez is a brat, but pac is an athletic freak which is why he gets by without a lot of skill. And Paulie has one of the best skills a fighter can have, he has ring IQ. He may not have super speed, durable hands or power but he still wins at a high level with his brain.

Chavez Jr just inherited a popular name. And as much as I hate to admit it most of uss Mexicans are very ignorant about boxing. For gods sake they worship Canelo alvarez like he's the second coming of Jesus
Dolimite
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 27 2013, 07:34 AM) *
Chavez is a brat, but pac is an athletic freak which is why he gets by without a lot of skill. And Paulie has one of the best skills a fighter can have, he has ring IQ. He may not have super speed, durable hands or power but he still wins at a high level with his brain.

Chavez Jr just inherited a popular name. And as much as I hate to admit it most of uss Mexicans are very ignorant about boxing. For gods sake they worship Canelo alvarez like he's the second coming of Jesus


Dude it is all good. Yawl really push the sport and keep it alive. Chavez Jr. is a fucking joke and to be honest I hope he gets dusted for the rest of his fights. Saul if he does fight Trout will be exposed and if he fights Mayweather then he will know what boxing is all about.

Great post fellas.
mgrover
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 27 2013, 03:34 PM) *
Chavez is a brat, but pac is an athletic freak which is why he gets by without a lot of skill. And Paulie has one of the best skills a fighter can have, he has ring IQ. He may not have super speed, durable hands or power but he still wins at a high level with his brain.

Chavez Jr just inherited a popular name. And as much as I hate to admit it most of uss Mexicans are very ignorant about boxing. For gods sake they worship Canelo alvarez like he's the second coming of Jesus


Dude didn't you know Canelo will KO all the greats inside of a round using one hand if you asked one of his fans
checkleft
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jan 28 2013, 05:53 AM) *
Dude didn't you know Canelo will KO all the greats inside of a round using one hand if you asked one of his fans

One hand? Both hands tied
mgrover
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 28 2013, 02:09 PM) *
One hand? Both hands tied


What's worse is a friend of mine sees him as the second coming and he's like oh yeah he's fought Mosley , blah blah blah, yet refuses to accept the fact Mosley's an old man and Lopez was way out of his weight range
daprofessor
i would argue that all the fighters u have mentioned have skills. u don't get to the level that they're at without them. some rely on athleticism...some rely on careful matchmaking....some rely on speed and power...but all have some level of skill.

for as much shit as chavez jr catches from ppl who don't care for him...or believe he's only there because of his pops, i'll say that he was the guy in the ring all those times he fought..not his pops. the kids is not a phenom...but he can take a punch...and he definitely gives one. he is very highly skilled at setting up and delivering that left hook to the body. it's probably his best skill and something inherited from his pops.

canelo may be feasting on the little guys and over matched opponents...but coming from mexico...and in comparison to the rest of the mexican style fighters, he is definitely highly skilled with his counter punching style and great body punching skills. his counter right hand is a thing of beauty when he uses it. that's a high skill level move.

arturo gatti was a very highly skilled boxer before he fell in love with his punching power. go back and watch his fights with tracy patterson.

malignaggi is all skill. his under standing of distance, movement, counterpunching, drawing opponents and making them miss and making them pay. doesn't get much more skillful than that.

pacquiao definitely has skill. u don't beat guys like morales, barrera and marquez without skill. go back and watch those fights and pay close attention to the subtle things he does to set up his punches. that's skill that his definitely enhanced by his tenacity and athleticism.
checkleft
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jan 28 2013, 11:49 AM) *
What's worse is a friend of mine sees him as the second coming and he's like oh yeah he's fought Mosley , blah blah blah, yet refuses to accept the fact Mosley's an old man and Lopez was way out of his weight range

Haha. A bunch of my family is convinced he would beat chavez Jr even though chavez big ass would probably just bully him into submission lol
Dolimite
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 28 2013, 03:08 PM) *
i would argue that all the fighters u have mentioned have skills. u don't get to the level that they're at without them. some rely on athleticism...some rely on careful matchmaking....some rely on speed and power...but all have some level of skill.

for as much shit as chavez jr catches from ppl who don't care for him...or believe he's only there because of his pops, i'll say that he was the guy in the ring all those times he fought..not his pops. the kids is not a phenom...but he can take a punch...and he definitely gives one. he is very highly skilled at setting up and delivering that left hook to the body. it's probably his best skill and something inherited from his pops.

canelo may be feasting on the little guys and over matched opponents...but coming from mexico...and in comparison to the rest of the mexican style fighters, he is definitely highly skilled with his counter punching style and great body punching skills. his counter right hand is a thing of beauty when he uses it. that's a high skill level move.

arturo gatti was a very highly skilled boxer before he fell in love with his punching power. go back and watch his fights with tracy patterson.

malignaggi is all skill. his under standing of distance, movement, counterpunching, drawing opponents and making them miss and making them pay. doesn't get much more skillful than that.

pacquiao definitely has skill. u don't beat guys like morales, barrera and marquez without skill. go back and watch those fights and pay close attention to the subtle things he does to set up his punches. that's skill that his definitely enhanced by his tenacity and athleticism.


Professor I can respect that but what I am saying is that their popularity mask the things that they are lacking. Yes they are skilled but their popularity have pushed the name rather than their technique. Where you been!
daprofessor
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jan 28 2013, 07:00 PM) *
Professor I can respect that but what I am saying is that their popularity mask the things that they are lacking. Yes they are skilled but their popularity have pushed the name rather than their technique. Where you been!


i was out of town for some fights.

i get that...yes...ok. so you're saying their popularity is greater than their skill set?
Dolimite
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 28 2013, 05:06 PM) *
i was out of town for some fights.

i get that...yes...ok. so you're saying their popularity is greater than their skill set?


Jeremy Lin is a okay basketball player but his popularity is off the charts and it supersedes his skill set. Some fighters are in the same boat. They are skilled but their popularity supersedes their skill set.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Jan 28 2013, 08:43 PM) *
Jeremy Lin is a okay basketball player but his popularity is off the charts and it supersedes his skill set. Some fighters are in the same boat. They are skilled but their popularity supersedes their skill set.


u know...i can agree with that and i'm probably going to say something that is going to piss a few ppl off, but i believe that is race based. lin is a talented asian player, pac is a talented asian boxer...as are the rest of the guys mentioned, but if they were black...they'd be held to a higher standard. u almost have to be exceptional to get the recognition u deserve...and even then, they still get shitted on by journalist and talking heads.
Plah
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 28 2013, 08:53 PM) *
u know...i can agree with that and i'm probably going to say something that is going to piss a few ppl off, but i believe that is race based. lin is a talented asian player, pac is a talented asian boxer...as are the rest of the guys mentioned, but if they were black...they'd be held to a higher standard. u almost have to be exceptional to get the recognition u deserve...and even then, they still get shitted on by journalist and talking heads.

Floyd.. is that you? haha jk.. Spot on.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 28 2013, 08:53 PM) *
u know...i can agree with that and i'm probably going to say something that is going to piss a few ppl off, but i believe that is race based. lin is a talented asian player, pac is a talented asian boxer...as are the rest of the guys mentioned, but if they were black...they'd be held to a higher standard. u almost have to be exceptional to get the recognition u deserve...and even then, they still get shitted on by journalist and talking heads.

Bravo. Lebron comes to mind when I read that. The guy is so under appreciated, we've been spoiled by his phenomenal play that people just overlook it because he does it so commonly
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 29 2013, 01:37 AM) *
Bravo. Lebron comes to mind when I read that. The guy is so under appreciated, we've been spoiled by his phenomenal play that people just overlook it because he does it so commonly



If LeBron was white his popularity with soccer moms would propell him to unbelievable heights. If Michael Jordan was white, same thing... Race plays a big part in popularity. Great example about Jeremy Linn. There are probably 10 or 11 black point guards in the league who put in similar or better work than Linn, but we dont know their names.
The Original MrFactor
Also, let me be fair, the same thing applies to Blacks in certain positions... Black Quarterbacks for example were not the norm for years, so any time we had a black QB, he was given much more media attention than some of his non black contemporaries. In some cases that worked in reverse because many caught more scrutiny as well. Winning cures all of those things though. Coming from the ATL and being a BIG Falcons fan, I know how a city can become polarized by race because of a player.

Imagine how things would shake out if we had an Asian QB in the NFL.
Dolimite
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jan 29 2013, 12:13 AM) *
Also, let me be fair, the same thing applies to Blacks in certain positions... Black Quarterbacks for example were not the norm for years, so any time we had a black QB, he was given much more media attention than some of his non black contemporaries. In some cases that worked in reverse because many caught more scrutiny as well. Winning cures all of those things though. Coming from the ATL and being a BIG Falcons fan, I know how a city can become polarized by race because of a player.

Imagine how things would shake out if we had an Asian QB in the NFL.


Race and sports have been linked hand and hand for awhile. Going back to Jack Johnson, Ali and many greats. Johnny Maziel is the first freshman to win the Heisman award, why because he played like a black dude. Vick played he same way at V Tech and he never even got a mention! Johnny M does the option QB style and he is prized wildly. Go figure.

Race differently has something to do with the way certain athletes get covered. They talking heads for the NFL bitched when Jon Harrabaugh benched that overrated asshole in Alex Smith but when Jeff Fisher benched Vince Young it was a great coaching move and the sad part was Vince was winning.

Pac could do no wrong in the media's eyes, even his losses were applauded, Mayweather he burns money at a club that he was paid to do and he a miscreant. Go figure. I don't get the double standards. This goes back to popularity and skill sometimes popularity is larger than the fighter's skill set. By the way, if Jeremy Lin were black, he wouldn't be in the league.
Cshel86
Popularity is key in boxing. As long as you're popular, you can have the shittiest skill set known to mankind, and people will still love you. I've seen some highly skilled fighters over the years, go unnoticed.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Plah @ Jan 29 2013, 12:19 AM) *
Floyd.. is that you? haha jk.. Spot on.


i've made these arguments in other forums years before floyd said it. i also made the argument about pac avoiding slick black fighters about a year before bhop or john david jackson mentioned it as well. smile.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jan 29 2013, 01:37 AM) *
Bravo. Lebron comes to mind when I read that. The guy is so under appreciated, we've been spoiled by his phenomenal play that people just overlook it because he does it so commonly


i can't speak on lebron. i stopped watching a couple years after jordan retired. laugh.gif i know kobe wishes he was jordan.
daprofessor
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jan 29 2013, 02:13 AM) *
Also, let me be fair, the same thing applies to Blacks in certain positions... Black Quarterbacks for example were not the norm for years, so any time we had a black QB, he was given much more media attention than some of his non black contemporaries. In some cases that worked in reverse because many caught more scrutiny as well. Winning cures all of those things though. Coming from the ATL and being a BIG Falcons fan, I know how a city can become polarized by race because of a player.

Imagine how things would shake out if we had an Asian QB in the NFL.


if doug williams, warren moon or randall cunningham were white....they'd be household names.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Jan 31 2013, 02:09 PM) *
Popularity is key in boxing. As long as you're popular, you can have the shittiest skill set known to mankind, and people will still love you. I've seen some highly skilled fighters over the years, go unnoticed.


brandon rios....

ivan calderon...
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 31 2013, 02:36 PM) *
i can't speak on lebron. i stopped watching a couple years after jordan retired. laugh.gif i know kobe wishes he was jordan.



Amen to that... Me too.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jan 31 2013, 02:39 PM) *
if doug williams, warren moon or randall cunningham were white....they'd be household names.



Also if Tim Tebow were black he'd be packing grocery bags at Kroger.
daprofessor
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Feb 1 2013, 07:49 AM) *
Also if Tim Tebow were black he'd be packing grocery bags at Kroger.


laugh.gif

i never had the pleasure of watching him play. i only caught the highlights of him kneeling and praying.
Dolimite
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Feb 1 2013, 05:49 AM) *
Also if Tim Tebow were black he'd be packing grocery bags at Kroger.


If he were black he would have not gotten to play in pop warner certainly not QB. I hated what Urban Myer did with Chris Leake. If Shaq O'Neal was white he would have been king the best and greatest player of all time.

QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 1 2013, 12:08 PM) *
laugh.gif

i never had the pleasure of watching him play. i only caught the highlights of him kneeling and praying.


You ain't missed nothing Professor. If Floyd were white just imagine how big he would be! We would have statues of the cat already!
daprofessor
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 1 2013, 06:34 PM) *
If he were black he would have not gotten to play in pop warner certainly not QB. I hated what Urban Myer did with Chris Leake. If Shaq O'Neal was white he would have been king the best and greatest player of all time.



You ain't missed nothing Professor. If Floyd were white just imagine how big he would be! We would have statues of the cat already!


which reminds me...

am i the only guy that wants to see that bullshit ass rocky statue go down in philly!? it should have been a statue for frazier!!!! muthafuckas!!!
Cheesey1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 1 2013, 09:11 PM) *
which reminds me...

am i the only guy that wants to see that bullshit ass rocky statue go down in philly!? it should have been a statue for frazier!!!! muthafuckas!!!

Truly. If Rocky deserves a statue, then an argument could be made for Frazier deserving one too.
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