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Gambit808
Take away everything accomplished by the G.O.A.T. and what do we have with boxing today?

Who do you feel is Greater than the Greatest?

Some people (like me) would still argue that if it weren't for the layoff, a more primed Ali would've given Frazier all that he could handle in the first fight, agreed?
mgrover
Can't comment on something I don't know much about. Was he the greatest? I don't know, it's like me saying Diego Maradona was the greatest footballer ever. I never saw Ali with my own two eyes. He was the greatest of his era/generation, and one of the greats. Actually am re watching that fight now

Gambit808
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 1 2013, 07:10 PM) *
Can't comment on something I don't know much about. Was he the greatest? I don't know, it's like me saying Diego Maradona was the greatest footballer ever. I never saw Ali with my own two eyes. He was the greatest of his era/generation, and one of the greats. Actually am re watching that fight now

Diego Maradona? I'll check it out through curiosity.
daprofessor
ali was maradona, pele, babe ruth, joe montana, roger staubach, reggie jackson, jim brown, michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson and every other athlete rolled into one. he transcended the sport like no one before or since. he's a one of a kind who was not only larger than boxing...he was larger than life. he did indeed pump life into boxing. there will never be another like him.
mgrover
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Feb 2 2013, 12:19 AM) *
Diego Maradona? I'll check it out through curiosity.


The man single handedly well more or less took Argentina through the works cup. Infamous for his hand of God

This also belongs here
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 1 2013, 07:58 PM) *
The man single handedly well more or less took Argentina through the works cup. Infamous for his hand of God

This also belongs here


this guy makes some great videos.
Gambit808
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 1 2013, 07:58 PM) *
The man single handedly well more or less took Argentina through the works cup. Infamous for his hand of God

This also belongs here

Agreed. Gorilla P. always put down epic highlights. HBO & Showtime should take notes or endorse em.
mrchitown
Though I wasn't yet born in his era of fighting, having studied tapes of Ali's fights, I wouldn't be upset if someone thought Ali was the best. He transcended the sport not only in his era but his presence is still being felt in the sport and the world today. Jot too many athletes outside of him, Jordan, and a few others can lay claim to that. But... Pep and Ray Robinson also deserve a mention as the GOAT
BrutUalBK
Without a doubt he was the greatest in the sense of promoting the sport to the level that the world wanted him to succeed in his fight against the U.S> Govt standing up as a Humanitarian and making a very bold statement during an era where racism was still a part of the norm/outright and condoned by law when he said "Ain't no Vietnamese ever called me nigg_"!

As far as his skills, I wouldn't say he was the greatest, he had his flaws but his underrated physical toughness and ability to take any shot and not be KO'd was second to none, even the big punching George Foreman couldn't stand up to Muhammad's punches but yet Ali was able to take everything the hardest puncher in boxing had thrown and still put him to sleep.

Ali did transcend the sport with his popularity and make it the most popular sport in the world because of his stance against the system of oppression that was not only recognized in America but for those who were impoverished world-wide.

Yes, he was/is the Greatest in that sense this sport has ever known.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 1 2013, 07:30 PM) *
ali was maradona, pele, babe ruth, joe montana, roger staubach, reggie jackson, jim brown, michael jordan, larry bird, magic johnson and every other athlete rolled into one. he transcended the sport like no one before or since. he's a one of a kind who was not only larger than boxing...he was larger than life. he did indeed pump life into boxing. there will never be another like him.


Ali getting waylaid by the system in his prime, definitely affected him. As an overall boxing product (in and outside of the ring), I'm fine with him being considered the greatest. Inside the ring, the debates can go on forever.
Gambit808
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 2 2013, 07:02 PM) *
Without a doubt he was the greatest in the sense of promoting the sport to the level that the world wanted him to succeed in his fight against the U.S> Govt standing up as a Humanitarian and making a very bold statement during an era where racism was still a part of the norm/outright and condoned by law when he said "Ain't no Vietnamese ever called me nigg_"!

As far as his skills, I wouldn't say he was the greatest, he had his flaws but his underrated physical toughness and ability to take any shot and not be KO'd was second to none, even the big punching George Foreman couldn't stand up to Muhammad's punches but yet Ali was able to take everything the hardest puncher in boxing had thrown and still put him to sleep.

Ali did transcend the sport with his popularity and make it the most popular sport in the world because of his stance against the system of oppression that was not only recognized in America but for those who were impoverished world-wide.

Yes, he was/is the Greatest in that sense this sport has ever known.

Good Post.

In terms of all around skill, who would you say ranks better?
Gambit808
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 2 2013, 12:16 AM) *
Though I wasn't yet born in his era of fighting, having studied tapes of Ali's fights, I wouldn't be upset if someone thought Ali was the best. He transcended the sport not only in his era but his presence is still being felt in the sport and the world today. Jot too many athletes outside of him, Jordan, and a few others can lay claim to that. But... Pep and Ray Robinson also deserve a mention as the GOAT

Top 5 greatest, who ya got?
wolterb
I'm always drawn to fighters that either stand for or come to represent issues much larger than sports. Ali defintely is one of the greatest for that, Alexis Arguello too. Vitali Klitschko is a contemporary example that no one knows shit about and won't care to know.
wolterb
Ali brought character and knew how to incite an audience too - that is another quality that made him such a force
checkleft
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 2 2013, 01:16 AM) *
Though I wasn't yet born in his era of fighting, having studied tapes of Ali's fights, I wouldn't be upset if someone thought Ali was the best. He transcended the sport not only in his era but his presence is still being felt in the sport and the world today. Jot too many athletes outside of him, Jordan, and a few others can lay claim to that. But... Pep and Ray Robinson also deserve a mention as the GOAT

My boy pep!
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Feb 2 2013, 07:22 PM) *
Ali getting waylaid by the system in his prime, definitely affected him. As an overall boxing product (in and outside of the ring), I'm fine with him being considered the greatest. Inside the ring, the debates can go on forever.


i don't believe his in the ring exploits alone are what make him the greatest...it's a combination of all he has done in and out of the ring. no athlete on his level has ever gave it all up for what he believed in and won!!! he will forever be the greatest imo.
duwdu
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 2 2013, 08:02 PM) *
Without a doubt he was the greatest in the sense of promoting the sport to the level that the world wanted him to succeed in his fight against the U.S> Govt standing up as a Humanitarian and making a very bold statement during an era where racism was still a part of the norm/outright and condoned by law when he said "Ain't no Vietnamese ever called me nigg_"!

As far as his skills, I wouldn't say he was the greatest, he had his flaws but his underrated physical toughness and ability to take any shot and not be KO'd was second to none, even the big punching George Foreman couldn't stand up to Muhammad's punches but yet Ali was able to take everything the hardest puncher in boxing had thrown and still put him to sleep.

Ali did transcend the sport with his popularity and make it the most popular sport in the world because of his stance against the system of oppression that was not only recognized in America but for those who were impoverished world-wide.

Yes, he was/is the Greatest in that sense this sport has ever known.


^^This.

P34c3
duwdu
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Feb 2 2013, 08:22 PM) *
Ali getting waylaid by the system in his prime, definitely affected him. As an overall boxing product (in and outside of the ring), I'm fine with him being considered the greatest. Inside the ring, the debates can go on forever.


+1.

Plus, he was such a good role model of an upright family man, with no marriage vices that I know about. I don't remember whether his conversion to Islam had an influence on him in that respect, or if he was naturally so.

Ali neither learnt nor knew/know how to read, yet he was very sharp of intellect with regards to politics, religion, and popular science; he bested his interviewers greater than 90% of the time in my estimation, and voiced the most catchy and memorable poems and prose ever by any sportsman, dead or alive.

"I float like a butterfly,
Sting like a bee."

"....telling all the people out there
Who're betting on Sonny
That I'm gonna lose their money."

"It's gonna be
A thriller,
And a chiller,
When I meet the Gorilla,
In Manila."

"I predict that tonight [vs Liston, 1] somebody will die at ringside from shock!"

Overall, Ali made it such a thrilling era.

Were it not for his brushes with the then law and establishment, there would never have been any controversy or disagreement over Ali's uniqueness or greatness. But then, there would not have been the complete package, "Ali."

P34c3
wolterb
^No reason to get into details but I don't think it is accurate to describe Ali as an upright family man with no marriage vices.

duwdu
QUOTE (wolterb @ Feb 3 2013, 01:01 PM) *
^No reason to get into details but I don't think it is accurate to describe Ali as an upright family man with no marriage vices.


Fair point,. May be I should have been more explicit about the period in his life for which that would be seen as accurate. I did refer to the influence of his religion though. Thanks

.P34c3
wolterb
I should've said "completely accurate"...can't say nothin bad about the man - he just liked to switch it up lol
Cheesey1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 3 2013, 03:43 AM) *
i don't believe his in the ring exploits alone are what make him the greatest...it's a combination of all he has done in and out of the ring. no athlete on his level has ever gave it all up for what he believed in and won!!! he will forever be the greatest imo.

That's cool. When I was a boy I remember having arguments with friends that Ali could beat some superheroes (they had a comic about Ali vs. Superman), but he could never test the Hulk though.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (duwdu @ Feb 3 2013, 05:22 AM) *
+1.

Plus, he was such a good role model of an upright family man, with no marriage vices that I know about. I don't remember whether his conversion to Islam had an influence on him in that respect, or if he was naturally so.

Ali neither learnt nor knew/know how to read, yet he was very sharp of intellect with regards to politics, religion, and popular science; he bested his interviewers greater than 90% of the time in my estimation, and voiced the most catchy and memorable poems and prose ever by any sportsman, dead or alive.

"I float like a butterfly,
Sting like a bee."

"....telling all the people out there
Who're betting on Sonny
That I'm gonna lose their money."

"It's gonna be
A thriller,
And a chiller,
When I meet the Gorilla,
In Manila."

"I predict that tonight [vs Liston, 1] somebody will die at ringside from shock!"

Overall, Ali made it such a thrilling era.

Were it not for his brushes with the then law and establishment, there would never have been any controversy or disagreement over Ali's uniqueness or greatness. But then, there would not have been the complete package, "Ali."

P34c3

Supposedly the complications from Parkinson's are really affecting him now. His brother just said that he might only have months, or possibly even days left. Hopefully not.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Feb 2 2013, 09:38 PM) *
Good Post.

In terms of all around skill, who would you say ranks better?



1. Mayweather
2. Leonard
3. Robinson
4. Hopkins
5. Whitaker
6. Pep

There weren't very many but these guys on my list were better at combining defense and offense together, Ali for all his declared greatness had many flaws in his game; his defense though effective was hardly on the level of those mentioned above and his footwork (though fast) was flawed when he had to counter backwards wasn't always correct(sometimes his feet came together making him off-balance), there were other things like no shoulder roll, he didn't ever cage when trapped against the ropes and he kept his left hand very low and pulled straight back when left hooks came at him (the reason why Frazier knocked him down in their 1st bout).

I love Ali though, he was a true warrior, he fought everybody and never dodged, ducked or made any excuses not to fight anyone, he took it as great as he gave it and he never got into the kind of skirmishes with the law that these modern day fighters seem to get into so in that sense he was a model citizen as well.
Gambit808
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 4 2013, 12:03 PM) *
1. Mayweather
2. Leonard
3. Robinson
4. Hopkins
5. Whitaker
6. Pep

There weren't very many but these guys on my list were better at combining defense and offense together, Ali for all his declared greatness had many flaws in his game; his defense though effective was hardly on the level of those mentioned above and his footwork (though fast) was flawed when he had to counter backwards wasn't always correct(sometimes his feet came together making him off-balance), there were other things like no shoulder roll, he didn't ever cage when trapped against the ropes and he kept his left hand very low and pulled straight back when left hooks came at him (the reason why Frazier knocked him down in their 1st bout).

I love Ali though, he was a true warrior, he fought everybody and never dodged, ducked or made any excuses not to fight anyone, he took it as great as he gave it and he never got into the kind of skirmishes with the law that these modern day fighters seem to get into so in that sense he was a model citizen as well.

Good List that is hard to argue.

When you speak on his foot work though, wouldn't you say that a more primed Ali would slip those left hook from Joe, had Ali not be 2 fights into a 3 year layoff? I mean of coarse I wasent even alive during this era so I use some of my spare time studying some of the greats, and I remember how Cus put it when watching Ali Spar. He was talking with Angelo and he said something along the line of, "Ali use to use one step to get out of the way of shots, where as in the Ali they were watching, would use two steps"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scnk9-xHRMA

Ali like Roy Jones used his athleticism to conquer in his prime and after the layoff, I believe, not only effected that, but also his timing of coarse.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Feb 4 2013, 12:32 AM) *
That's cool. When I was a boy I remember having arguments with friends that Ali could beat some superheroes (they had a comic about Ali vs. Superman), but he could never test the Hulk though.


no way in the world ali loses to superman or the hulk. he'd beat them mentally before they ever even step foot in the ring.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Feb 4 2013, 01:39 PM) *
Good List that is hard to argue.

When you speak on his foot work though, wouldn't you say that a more primed Ali would slip those left hook from Joe, had Ali not be 2 fights into a 3 year layoff? I mean of coarse I wasent even alive during this era so I use some of my spare time studying some of the greats, and I remember how Cus put it when watching Ali Spar. He was talking with Angelo and he said something along the line of, "Ali use to use one step to get out of the way of shots, where as in the Ali they were watching, would use two steps"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scnk9-xHRMA

Ali like Roy Jones used his athleticism to conquer in his prime and after the layoff, I believe, not only effected that, but also his timing of coarse.



I agree with Cus, that lockout from boxing kinda took a step or two from the Ali of his youth but it did help him to gain more intellect not only in life but in the ring as well but to answer your question regarding Ali's ability to slip the left hook then I'd have to say this that it was all in the basic fundamentals (of which Ali had his flaws). Roy Jones was fundamentally flawed in many more ways than even Ali was but prime or no prime a boxer who mastered the basics of defense/slipping punches should know how to avoid those left hooks by not going straight back regardless of whether or not he or she has the ability to slip them (blocking them would've been just as effective).

Use Floyd's ability that even when he doesn't get out of the way of shots he usually blocks them or even rolls with them to take away their effectiveness, why Ali never was able to do that with Frazier's left hook? Simple, because he lacked that basic fundamental that he should've known how to either block, duck or roll with the shot (if it connected).

As far as Roy's more obvious lack of fundamentals on his defense then let's just say that regarding his timing that he simply lost a step to Father Time, the basic fundamentals he never mastered on defense at all. Roy willingly went to the ropes, always brought both feet together, rarely roll the shoulders or even with shots when they connected, but his speed/timing when he was younger was a sight to behold, brilliant ability to unleash a barrage of combination punching rarely seen.

Roy's offensive abilities were hardly ever questioned, it was his defensive inability that was his downfall, just compare him to Hopkins' abilities defensive-wise and you'll see what I mean.
mgrover
slip the left hook? I thought it was roll the hook. slip the jab etc etc
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 4 2013, 05:45 PM) *
slip the left hook? I thought it was roll the hook. slip the jab etc etc


typically...a taller man doesn't want to roll under the hook of a shorter man unless he wants to get ko'd. ali liked to pull back from big hooks. that was also dangerous but because of his great feet and cat like reflexes it worked for him. a solid block could have done the trick.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 4 2013, 03:45 PM) *
slip the left hook? I thought it was roll the hook. slip the jab etc etc



You're absolutely correct, it is slip the jab or parry the jab and/or even catch the jab and it is always either roll with the hook, block it or avoid it altogether. Semantics though, I know what he was trying to say and it's just as the DaProfessor stated. A tall guy shouldn't try to duck under the hook, especially if it is coming from a shorter man (he may just duck right into the punch).

For all of his (Ali's) lack of solid fundamentals he did beat some of the best out there and was never KO'd.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 4 2013, 03:16 PM) *
no way in the world ali loses to superman or the hulk. he'd beat them mentally before they ever even step foot in the ring.

Fair enough re. Superman, but no way with the Hulk.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 4 2013, 04:16 PM) *
no way in the world ali loses to superman or the hulk. he'd beat them mentally before they ever even step foot in the ring.

I concur lol

mrchitown
QUOTE (checkleft @ Feb 2 2013, 11:23 PM) *
My boy pep!


Pep was smooth in the ring. I don't hear his name brought up that much but I first learned about him from old timers at the gym and I checked out some of his fights on youtube and read alot on him, plus listening to the guys at the gym stories about him. He deserves a nod as one of the best to ever lace up a pair of gloves
checkleft
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 5 2013, 04:06 PM) *
Pep was smooth in the ring. I don't hear his name brought up that much but I first learned about him from old timers at the gym and I checked out some of his fights on youtube and read alot on him, plus listening to the guys at the gym stories about him. He deserves a nod as one of the best to ever lace up a pair of gloves

Definitely! So underrated, great footwork iq and defensive instincts. Love watching his old fights and highlights!
mrchitown
QUOTE (checkleft @ Feb 5 2013, 11:26 PM) *
Definitely! So underrated, great footwork iq and defensive instincts. Love watching his old fights and highlights!


Agreed! I think he's underrated because there's not an abundance of footage of him like today's fighters. I think if it were then people would have a different perception of him. He was just so talented
checkleft
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 6 2013, 04:51 PM) *
Agreed! I think he's underrated because there's not an abundance of footage of him like today's fighters. I think if it were then people would have a different perception of him. He was just so talented

And he was so entertaining inside and outside the ring, one of my all time favorites.
Dolimite
Can argue what he says. He really invented a Hollywood type of personal for himself and boxing. Many have tried to imitate Ali's style and play of words but they have failed. The man had principle and he stood by his beliefs. It is a pleasure for him to be apart of boxing. Thanks Ali for the quotes, fights, and attitude! And thank you for having your daughter... best gift ever.
BrutUalBK
The main thing that set Ali apart from those of his counterparts in any era is that he had a platform (Human Rights) to stand on, there were/are plenty of colorful characters in this sport and those with plenty of mouth and a flair for being funny, the most hated or just outright outrageously entertaining.

Muhammad was the right man in the right place at the right time in that era, there are no longer any platforms for boxing's elite to stand on and become a world reknown people's champ for.

People are no longer galvanized, we're more segregated that ever thanks to the media.
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