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mgrover
When do you think the decline started? A lot of people have said around the time he fought Clottey, others say around the time he fought Margarito. Personally am not quite sure, whether it was the decline of Pac or more the exposure around the time of the Mosley fight.
Dric
I would say after the Margarito fight, it was downhill from there.
Plah
I haven't seen any really, Marquez has his number, Bradley was an uncomfortable fight, Clottey and Mosley (after the KD) didn't came to fight. His rise was part of careful matchmaking and contract stipulations. Put him in with Ríos or Alvarado and you'll see the Pac of old.
Dolimite
QUOTE (Plah @ Feb 10 2013, 08:24 AM) *
I haven't seen any really, Marquez has his number, Bradley was an uncomfortable fight, Clottey and Mosley (after the KD) didn't came to fight. His rise was part of careful matchmaking and contract stipulations. Put him in with Ríos or Alvarado and you'll see the Pac of old.

+1

He was a fantastic fighter against fighters who would come straight forward. He has fast hands and he is an exciting fighter but against skilled fighters he looks less than average. I think his decline came or I should his skill or lack there of came when he fought JMM the 2 and third time and with Shane and Tim Bradley. They exposed Pacquiao's one dimensional fighting style.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 10 2013, 07:30 AM) *
When do you think the decline started? A lot of people have said around the time he fought Clottey, others say around the time he fought Margarito. Personally am not quite sure, whether it was the decline of Pac or more the exposure around the time of the Mosley fight.



I believe his decline started when he fought JMM the third time, and then after that in sparring for the Margo fight he was complaining about leg cramps (probably from PED usage, this is one of the symptoms) and at first it seemed that they were using this as a built-in excuse going into the fight but it was later on mentioned that he had them going into the 3rd fight with JMM.

As far as Pac's skills, let's just say he wasn't ever really technical to begin with and the only thing Freddie really added to his game was a right hook.
mitukczuk
To me he didn't really even have a peak (skill-wise). He has always been the same. Exciting, fast hands, good power. That's it. Combined with second-to-none matchmaking you had Manny Pacquiao. I remember talking about him with a bunch of friends..it was right after the Morales II fight. We all marveled at the way he fought...but we also unanimously agreed that he is actually....nothing special..again. (I admit, we are all defense freaks)
Marcus
QUOTE (Plah @ Feb 10 2013, 11:24 AM) *
I haven't seen any really, Marquez has his number, Bradley was an uncomfortable fight, Clottey and Mosley (after the KD) didn't came to fight. His rise was part of careful matchmaking and contract stipulations. Put him in with Ríos or Alvarado and you'll see the Pac of old.


Agreed. I don't think Pacquiao ever declined. He just got exposed. His over hype, and over praise as a threat in the boxing industry is the reason why this conversation is existent. Top Rank did great with his career, his fight negotiations, and matchmaking. I think in his come back we will truly be able to tell if he's declined or if he's the same fighter. If he's not the same Pac-Man against come forward type guys/brawlers then we can start saying he declined. Styles make fights and top Rank messed up by putting him in there with guys who have skills.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Feb 10 2013, 04:18 PM) *
To me he didn't really even have a peak (skill-wise). He has always been the same. Exciting, fast hands, good power. That's it. Combined with second-to-none matchmaking you had Manny Pacquiao. I remember talking about him with a bunch of friends..it was right after the Morales II fight. We all marveled at the way he fought...but we also unanimously agreed that he is actually....nothing special..again. (I admit, we are all defense freaks)



Nothing wrong with being defensive minded in this sport, those who are usually last longer (Hopkins comes to mind) but I do agree with you that Manny (while a very exciting fighter) doesn't have the true boxing abilities of a Master Boxer. There are many things that Pac doesn't do that you see regularly in those who are Master Boxers execute, take a look at the styles of the following:

Mayweather
Hopkins
Broner
Marquez, though he's slowing down now but there are many others who are up and coming that are showing their wrinkles early like Omar Figueroa.

xxxxxx
If you watch the Pacquiao-Margarito fight...Margarito did some damage to PACMAN. Paquiao landed some incredible shots and probably ended Margaritos career early, but took a lot of punishment of his own. That was a brutal fight. You add all the Morales & Marquez fights and the Margarito Fight, this 1 in my eyes, was the beginning of Pacmans Decline. Hes still got fights in him though.
mrchitown
IMO his decline started after the Cotto fight. Realistically his run as this phenom is not impressive. Beating a corpse in DLH, a weight drained Cotto, who was battered by Margarito and probably lost to Clottey. In that fight, I always wondered if he hadn't of scored those early KD's how Cotto would've performed.

After that he looked avg at best. He beat Margarito like he stole something but he took tremendous punishment in that fight and in one of those later rds, Margarito caught him with some body shots that clearly got to Pacquiao and his face told the story at the end of the night. Mosley or should I say better yet Nazim Richardson laid out a blueprint to beat Manny, Shane was just shot to hell. You can analyze Manny's fights since the Cotto fight and look and see the he's studily declined. The performances just got shittier and shittier. If it wasn't JMM, it would've been somebody else to stop the Pacquiao express
Franchize
When he started fighting people who knew how to box. Emphasis on the FIGHTING and BOXING! When he fights fighters, he looks great. He just can't outbox boxers.
flazi
styles makes fights. as long as manny fights boxers that come forward he will be exciting. to me though his decline had to do more with his role outside of boxing. boxing has to be your #1 and requires 100% dedication, not even 90% will do. Pac knows that now. he should have at least 5 or more good fights left in him, if he can make 10-20 million take home, he will be ok and we shouldn't have to worry about him being broke once retired.
daprofessor
i don't know if i can call it a decline. he's always been very beatable. they just did an excellent job of picking the perfectly diminished fighters and created circumstances that favored pac.
Dric
QUOTE (flazi @ Feb 12 2013, 02:27 PM) *
styles makes fights. as long as manny fights boxers that come forward he will be exciting. to me though his decline had to do more with his role outside of boxing. boxing has to be your #1 and requires 100% dedication, not even 90% will do. Pac knows that now. he should have at least 5 or more good fights left in him, if he can make 10-20 million take home, he will be ok and we shouldn't have to worry about him being broke once retired.


I'm not sure Manny has 5 good fights in him after that knockout, unless he faces brawlers and not boxers who can actually box. His invincibility is gone now after that knockout, so you will have more fighters coming to fight thinking they actually have a chance instead of collecting a paycheck.
flazi
5 more fights is being generous. i hope he has 5 left but 3 is more realistic.
Dolimite
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 12 2013, 12:42 PM) *
i don't know if i can call it a decline. he's always been very beatable. they just did an excellent job of picking the perfectly diminished fighters and created circumstances that favored pac.


+1. Perfect matchmaking skills is what made Pacquiao a legend and icon. The moment he fought boxers you saw every flaw in his fighting style. I remember the Shane Mosley fight and I was thinking, okay when is he going to cut the ring off and attack Shane or try to counter Shane. It never happened. Marquez exposed Pac in the in all 4 fights. Anytime I fighter can predict what you do before you do it means that there was no growth in the fighter and he didn't learn anything from the first 3 fights. Marquez fought a beautiful courageous fight.

QUOTE (flazi @ Feb 14 2013, 04:22 PM) *
5 more fights is being generous. i hope he has 5 left but 3 is more realistic.


I say 2. If he gets his brain rattled like that again it is over. I have no idea who he planes to fight when he comes back, but it better be against a Castillo (yes Juan Castillo) or a Eric Morales.
The Original MrFactor
When the heat got turned up about PEDs is when Manny started to decline. Despite not having fought him, I think Mayweather beat him in the ring of public opinion. I think he may have fought his last 2 without juicing.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Feb 17 2013, 06:04 PM) *
When the heat got turned up about PEDs is when Manny started to decline. Despite not having fought him, I think Mayweather beat him in the ring of public opinion. I think he may have fought his last 2 without juicing.



We did see the manifestation of his decline after the PED accusations but I believe the decline started long before that, he (Manny) complained of leg cramps in sparring prior to his 3rd fight with JMM and then again before the Margo fight, so the final outcome was inevitable as I feel he had to be weened away from the usage of PEDS because of the growing suspicions surrounding him and his reluctance to concede to testing when Floyd initially asked for it.

I believe Floyd knew long ago that doping was taking place in boxing and now that it has come forward in other sports outside of this sport we can all clearly see that he (Mayweather) was definitely onto something and now it has become abundantly clear that he was right.

KOpower
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 11 2013, 10:10 PM) *
IMO his decline started after the Cotto fight. Realistically his run as this phenom is not impressive. Beating a corpse in DLH, a weight drained Cotto, who was battered by Margarito and probably lost to Clottey. In that fight, I always wondered if he hadn't of scored those early KD's how Cotto would've performed.

After that he looked avg at best. He beat Margarito like he stole something but he took tremendous punishment in that fight and in one of those later rds, Margarito caught him with some body shots that clearly got to Pacquiao and his face told the story at the end of the night. Mosley or should I say better yet Nazim Richardson laid out a blueprint to beat Manny, Shane was just shot to hell. You can analyze Manny's fights since the Cotto fight and look and see the he's studily declined. The performances just got shittier and shittier. If it wasn't JMM, it would've been somebody else to stop the Pacquiao express



This is an asinine post. Manny beat the tar out of Morales and MAB. He is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He then moved up and beat a sorry Oscar, but he still whipped him. He then crushed Hatton. He crushed Cotto. He ended Margarito's career early. He beat Clottey and Mosley so bad that they didn't even want to fight. He handled a prime fighter in Bradley. I mean really, what else do you want him to do? He fought big guys, he fought skilled boxers, he fought boxer-punchers, he fought pressure guys, etc.

I think I was pulling for the other guy in 90% of Manny's fights, but saying that he was just matched well and that his run wasn't impressive is idiotic at best.

LoL at you trying to give Nazim Richardson any credit for "laying out a blueprint on how to beat Manny".
mrchitown
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 17 2013, 07:17 PM) *
This is an asinine post. Manny beat the tar out of Morales and MAB. He is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He then moved up and beat a sorry Oscar, but he still whipped him. He then crushed Hatton. He crushed Cotto. He ended Margarito's career early. He beat Clottey and Mosley so bad that they didn't even want to fight. He handled a prime fighter in Bradley. I mean really, what else do you want him to do? He fought big guys, he fought skilled boxers, he fought boxer-punchers, he fought pressure guys, etc.

I think I was pulling for the other guy in 90% of Manny's fights, but saying that he was just matched well and that his run wasn't impressive is idiotic at best.

LoL at you trying to give Nazim Richardson any credit for "laying out a blueprint on how to beat Manny".


If disrespecting me has to be included in your post then I don't respect it. You see it how you want to keyboard warrior. I call it how I see it. The only idiot or idiotic thing here is your homotional attack on my personal opinion. Now try again, if you can't rsepect me and my opinion and offer a rebuttal in a intelligent manner the don't quote me

LOL at you trying to discredit Nazim's plan. He beat Shane bad, I guess that;s why he was turning Manny all damn night and couldn't even finish him. I'll agree that he crushed Hatton, that 2nd round KO was brutal and even though I was pulling for Hatton int hat comeback fight, deep down I wished he'd stayed retired. That's the kind of punch you never recover from in the ring. Just like the one JMM hit Manny's ass with. Keep Manny's dick in your mouth and stay off mine!!
KOpower
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 17 2013, 11:22 PM) *
If disrespecting me has to be included in your post then I don't respect it. You see it how you want to keyboard warrior. I call it how I see it. The only idiot or idiotic thing here is your homotional attack on my personal opinion. Now try again, if you can't rsepect me and my opinion and offer a rebuttal in a intelligent manner the don't quote me

LOL at you trying to discredit Nazim's plan. He beat Shane bad, I guess that;s why he was turning Manny all damn night and couldn't even finish him. I'll agree that he crushed Hatton, that 2nd round KO was brutal and even though I was pulling for Hatton int hat comeback fight, deep down I wished he'd stayed retired. That's the kind of punch you never recover from in the ring. Just like the one JMM hit Manny's ass with. Keep Manny's dick in your mouth and stay off mine!!



Like I said, I probably pulled for the other guy in 90% of the MP fights I have seen. I don't dislike him...but I certainly don't like him either. I do respect him. He is a helluva a fighter. He is one of the best fighters of this era. He has went out and beaten TONS of top opposition. Like I said, the man is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He moved up and fought guys MUCH bigger. He fought world champions in their prime and faded legends. He also fought all types of styles. His run is/was EXTREMELY impressive. If you say otherwise, then you aren't based in reality.
mrchitown
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 18 2013, 09:13 PM) *
Like I said, I probably pulled for the other guy in 90% of the MP fights I have seen. I don't dislike him...but I certainly don't like him either. I do respect him. He is a helluva a fighter. He is one of the best fighters of this era. He has went out and beaten TONS of top opposition. Like I said, the man is 6-2-1 against that great Mexican trio. He moved up and fought guys MUCH bigger. He fought world champions in their prime and faded legends. He also fought all types of styles. His run is/was EXTREMELY impressive. If you say otherwise, then you aren't based in reality.


Call me 3-D then lol. I like him, and respect him also. What he did for boxing in terms of the popularity and the fans he brought in was nothing short of spectacular. And I agree that his fights with Morales, Barerra, and JMM(the earlier ones) were good performances on his part. But once he started stepping up it became watered down. He beat a weight drained DLH, Roach even said he saw the IV marks in his arms. He won but I can't really give too much credit for him fighting someone who shouldn't have been fighting at that weight

He beat Cotto, battered Cotto actually. A Cotto who got pummeled by Margarito and who should've lost his title to Clottey that June. He beat Margarito who was slower then him, waaay slower then him, but as I stated before, there were some rds where Margarito got him on the ropes and he bandged to the body and in one particular rd, Manny looked hurt. He beat Clottey who didn't put up a fight and hasn't been seen since. I think he lost the 3rd bout with JMM and he was robbed against Bradley but he fought in spurts

The reason why I say his decline started after the Cotto fight is because in my observation he lost something. His performances became less and less impressive. I thought he was going to finish Shane honestly but Nazim told him to keep turning him and that definitely affected Manny's offense. And he gets major credit from some for beating Shane, when Shane lost decisively to Mayweather and had a draw with Mora before the Pacquiao fight. I give him credit, he won those fights no matter what the circumstances were, he came out victorious. No matter if there were catch weights, weight drained or coming off losses, he won. But from the timer he struck superstardom, I don't see it as impressive. Those fights I just mentioned, when you look at it, the sizzle was taken out of them. I think he benefited from good matchmaking after he became Arum's bottom bitch. But he won so I give him credit for piling up the wins but I'm not going to say I was impressed when looking at his run from 08 up until now because I'd be lying and that I won't do
sduck
There is no decline for him as a fighter, but for him as a Sport's Icon.
ks1
For his sake, I hope Pac winds up with some money when it's all said and done. His career is definitely "on the clock" right now. A KO like the one he took from JM usually ends the competitive part of a fighters career and, if he goes forward, more often than not, it's not a good outcome.
KOpower
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 18 2013, 11:55 PM) *
Call me 3-D then lol. I like him, and respect him also. What he did for boxing in terms of the popularity and the fans he brought in was nothing short of spectacular. And I agree that his fights with Morales, Barerra, and JMM(the earlier ones) were good performances on his part. But once he started stepping up it became watered down. He beat a weight drained DLH, Roach even said he saw the IV marks in his arms. He won but I can't really give too much credit for him fighting someone who shouldn't have been fighting at that weight

He beat Cotto, battered Cotto actually. A Cotto who got pummeled by Margarito and who should've lost his title to Clottey that June. He beat Margarito who was slower then him, waaay slower then him, but as I stated before, there were some rds where Margarito got him on the ropes and he bandged to the body and in one particular rd, Manny looked hurt. He beat Clottey who didn't put up a fight and hasn't been seen since. I think he lost the 3rd bout with JMM and he was robbed against Bradley but he fought in spurts

The reason why I say his decline started after the Cotto fight is because in my observation he lost something. His performances became less and less impressive. I thought he was going to finish Shane honestly but Nazim told him to keep turning him and that definitely affected Manny's offense. And he gets major credit from some for beating Shane, when Shane lost decisively to Mayweather and had a draw with Mora before the Pacquiao fight. I give him credit, he won those fights no matter what the circumstances were, he came out victorious. No matter if there were catch weights, weight drained or coming off losses, he won. But from the timer he struck superstardom, I don't see it as impressive. Those fights I just mentioned, when you look at it, the sizzle was taken out of them. I think he benefited from good matchmaking after he became Arum's bottom bitch. But he won so I give him credit for piling up the wins but I'm not going to say I was impressed when looking at his run from 08 up until now because I'd be lying and that I won't do



He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.
Dolimite
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 03:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.


Ricky Hatton was on cocaine and depressed. he also was outclassed and destroyed by Mayweather. Oscar was done. Clottely gets as much creditability as Jeremy Lin being a great point guard. Or Romo being a fantastic QB. Stats do not win championships. Clottely hasn't fought since that fight for a darn good reason. Margarito was no competition for Manny. His style was tailored made for Manny come on. That 6-2 record should really be 5-3 at best. Actually 4-4. He couldn't knock out Shane Mosley or cut the ring. He has no idea how to fight a boxer which is why he could never truly put Marquez away. Bradley fight was BS but it was a lot closer than what HBO cheerleaders reported. Bradley made Manny look very average. When Manny could not hurt him there was no plan B and that is what has always bothered me about Manny, no plan B.
mrchitown
@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO
daprofessor
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 07:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

oscar was at a weight he hadn't been at in 9yrs and he had a new trainer. huge advantage pacquiao. not impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

ricky hatton was a shot fighter who had to be saved controversially from getting beat by juan lazcano. he also was only allowed to gain 5lbs after the weigh-in. huge advantage pac...not impressive.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

cotto didn't have a real corner in the fight...catchweight plus the recent beatdown...advantage pac. decent win.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

clottey used the diarrhea excuse...plus his trainer couldn't get a visa to come to the u.s. what ever the case...it was clear to me clottey had no intention of making it a fight. he busted up pac without even trying.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

margarito..coming off a recent beat down...new trainer and catch weight. advantage pac. i wasn't impressed.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

i wonder if shane was allowed to fully hydrate in that fight. i've seen him take big shots from stronger punchers. suspect at best.

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

how about...unless you really understand how rounds are scored...i had the fight a draw. a win either way is not inconceivable.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.


smoke and mirrors...mirage...take your pick.

1. weight stipulations
2. trainer issues
3. coming off a recent beat down

those are all major things to be concerned about and definitely tilt odds in the favor of one fighter. was all of that planned or by accident? we'll probably never know...but the truth remains. with the exception of the cotto fight...all of those went exactly as i thought they would.

what more could he have done? there were opportunities for him to fight other guys such as zahir raheem, joan guzman and nate campbell, that would have convinced me of his 'greatness.' it's not his fault he didn't face those guys and in all honesty, if i was his promoter/manager or trainer...i would have chosen the same path. there's no question the three match ups i named would have posed serious problems for him and possibly made him look human. he matched up better with stand in the pocket fighters who want to trade. some of those guys happened to be some of the biggest names in the sport...and he got them at just the right times. don't think i am picking on pac with this...because i am not. i can do the same for just about any fighter out there. it's not to discredit their accomplishments imo. it's more about putting things in their proper context/perspective than anything. i've done similar things for floyds accomplishments as well. they never go over well with fighter fans.
Dolimite
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 05:55 PM) *
@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO


Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 09:46 PM) *
Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.


damn. sad.gif

sduck
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 06:24 PM) *
He was 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio. He also beat some solid opposition in the smaller weights. That alone makes him an amazing fighter. It isn't some media hype. Let's take a look at his fights since moving up in weight...

-Oscar was drained, but Manny abused him. I won't give Manny full credit, but the way he beat him was very impressive.

-Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter and Manny just destroyed him. Destroyed.

-Cotto may have been coming off a loss and it was at a catch-weight but Manny still battered him. Cotto was not finished. He went on to beat up Margarito and looked great in a loss to Mayweather. I think the Cotto fight is the most impressive fight he has had since moving up in weight.

-Manny beat Clottey, a legit 147 pound banger, so badly that he made Clottey all but quit. Again, you are talking about a world champion at 147.

-Manny then proved that he can stay in the ring against a big/rugged 147 pounder (fought at 150 pound catch weight) in Margarito...and again, Manny CRUSHED him.

-Shane Mosley was just a name at that point. That fight was a waste

-The Bradley fight was a really good one for Manny. Unless you really dislike Manny, you know he won that fight easily. Bradley was a legit 147 pounder that was in his prime and had beaten good opposition.

I am really surprised that so many think that Manny was just a mirage. The guy has been amazing and has racked up great win after great win. Does he have his flaws? Of course. He isn't perfect. With that being said he has stepped up and fought just about every big name fighter out there and he has beaten them all. In all honesty, what more could he do? Did he make a couple of nice moves with his catch-weight fights? Yeah, but he still fought the biggest names and moved up considerably to do so. Mayweather has been matched pretty well. Same with Roy Jones back in the day. I think Manny took enough big fights to prove his worth.

Posts like this really make me question some people's knowledge of the sport, honestly...

I don't mean to sound like a douche, but stuff like what you said with Clottey, I mean come on now...
KOpower
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Feb 22 2013, 08:44 PM) *
smoke and mirrors...mirage...take your pick.

1. weight stipulations
2. trainer issues
3. coming off a recent beat down

those are all major things to be concerned about and definitely tilt odds in the favor of one fighter. was all of that planned or by accident? we'll probably never know...but the truth remains. with the exception of the cotto fight...all of those went exactly as i thought they would.

what more could he have done? there were opportunities for him to fight other guys such as zahir raheem, joan guzman and nate campbell, that would have convinced me of his 'greatness.' it's not his fault he didn't face those guys and in all honesty, if i was his promoter/manager or trainer...i would have chosen the same path. there's no question the three match ups i named would have posed serious problems for him and possibly made him look human. he matched up better with stand in the pocket fighters who want to trade. some of those guys happened to be some of the biggest names in the sport...and he got them at just the right times. don't think i am picking on pac with this...because i am not. i can do the same for just about any fighter out there. it's not to discredit their accomplishments imo. it's more about putting things in their proper context/perspective than anything. i've done similar things for floyds accomplishments as well. they never go over well with fighter fans.


I will give you credit for at least telling me what more Manny could have done. It at least put a smile on my face...seeing you mention guys like Zahir Raheem and Nate Campbell.

You can nit-pick on anyone. Nobody is matched up against stud after stud every fight. Manny was a smaller fighter and fought almost every big challenge at the smaller weight. Going 6-2-1 against the legendary Mexican trio is outstanding and 4 of those 6 wins were dominant. We can talk about the close fights with Marquez, but Manny has a legit beef about the way the 1st fight was scored seeing as how one official refused to give Manny credit for a KD. All 3 of those close fights could have gone either way so having it 2-0-1 in favor of Manny is certainly not an injustice.

Now if you want to discredit everything Manny has done since moving up, be my guest. But you have to give him credit for beating Josh Clottey and Tim Bradley. Those were 2 guys he fought at a normal weight. Those were 2 guys that were roughly in their prime. Moving up and fighting (beating) those 2 guys after doing what he did at the smaller weight is impressive. Then you can give him whatever credit you want for wins against Margarito, Cotto, Hatton, and Mosley.

Manny is not as good as Mayweather or Jones but he is one of the best of this era. I give the little man tons of credit for taking on everyone (apparently other than Raheem and Campbell) at the lower weights and then moving up to fight big name P4P guys that were way above his normal weight limit.
KOpower
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 07:55 PM) *
@KOpower, if many people don't think his run was impressive then theirs a reason for that. As far as Mayweather and RJJ being matched well. So was Manny, we can go back and forth with that one til we're blue in the face. At least 2 out of the 3 didn't drain their opponents and put in catch weights and other stipulations.

True enough, he had an impressive record against the Mexican trio you speak of but many believe he lost those Marquez fights and we seen the outcome of his last fight against one of them. But I'm not talking about what he did to Barrera and Morales, I'm speaking on his run from 08 up until recently. It was not impressive. I respect him for the worldwide attn he bought the sport but he isn't what alot of people make him out to be

Beating Oscar when he looked mediocre against Forbes and was weight drained and half way retired doesn't merit the accolades you give him. Hatton never looked the same after Mayweather bounced him from ring post to ring post. I could go on and on but I won't. I guess it's subjective but I'm not praising anyone for not taking the challenge that is fair to both parties. He fought fighters coming off of long layoffs and catch weights but people think he's the best thing to happen to boxing, I don't. That's like me giving credit to a team beating the Heat in the finals and Lebron wasn't playing. You may have win the title but you KNOW you didn't beat them at their best. He won but he didn't beat those fighters at their best, and that is a fact.

He took on some big names but he also had an unfair advantage, you can say what you want about Floyd, RJJ, but at least the weight and the fights were on an even playing field. Floyd, RJJ, and even Hopkins are ALL better then Manny IMO



MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.
mgrover
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 23 2013, 03:51 AM) *
MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.


It's not what this board has to say but the fact many fights have * next to them. I'll leave with this, it's much easier to go up in weight than to go down. I mean how weaken was Cotto since he did some damage on the ropes and played into character fading down the stretch
mrchitown
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 07:46 PM) *
Speaking of the Heat they beat the Bulls. The Bulls lost that game. they could not score.


I unfortunately saw that, that loss cut me deep
mrchitown
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 22 2013, 09:51 PM) *
MANY people think Manny's run is incredible. He will go down as a boxing legend. It's just that there is a small minority on this board that think Manny is a fraud. Why? Maybe it's because he isn't an orthodox fighter. Maybe it's because he doesn't have the craft that a guy like Marquez has. Maybe it's because he isn't black with a slick style? Hell...maybe it makes you feel better about your own boxing knowledge to say that someone as popular and "main-stream" as Manny really isn't that good?


-I didn't give Manny many accolades for beating up Oscar. He did move up in weight a considerable amount and crushed Oscar. I give him credit for that much. I understand that Oscar had physical issues, no doubt about it.

-Hatton never looked great once he stepped foot on American soil. He is a good fighter, but I don't think he was a considerably different fighter in the Manny fight. Let's be real here...Manny is dusting Hatton at any point in Ricky's career.

-I don't think he is the best thing that ever happened to boxing. He is one of the greatest fighters of our era, but it's almost like a few on here want to say that guys like Danny Garcia or Lamont Peterson are better fighters. Manny isn't better than Floyd, but he is a legend.


LOL are we really going the black route now?? Please DO NOT go there!

And I only brought up his popularity because it's a fact that his accomplishments and his abilities are blown up by casual fans and those who vaulted him into stardom.. He is an all time great and nothing I can do will take away from him going into the HOF, nor would I want it to. But I deal with facts, and the facts are that he had an advantage in the fights that solidified his greatness.

You never heard me say he wasn't good, I just think he's not "as good" as many make him out to be. I'm not some overweight slob who gets his rocks off by hating someone I don't know. I'm not a fanatic, there is nothing I have against Manny or any fighter, I just like to deal in truth and some don't want to admit that his wins from 08 til now aren't as good as they want to believe. My knowledge of the sport of boxing runs deep but my pursuit and demand of truth runs even deeper.

I refuse to alter my words to fit something that is dishonest and in this case, Pacquiao's fights in the timeframe I mentioned should all have * next to them. Now if you attribute that to me and other members on this board having some axe to grind with someone who we've never met, then by all means do so. But like I said before, if you hearing it from multiple sources then their is something to it. There are people on other forums who feel the same way I do and some that feel the way you do. Their's something to be said for both arguments here
Dolimite
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 09:09 PM) *
I unfortunately saw that, that loss cut me deep


I did not understand that game what so ever. Just give the MVP to James and let it be done! Hell Chris Bosh even had a monster game. Noah looked slow and uninterested and Carlos Bozer I just hate at times. They could not make a shot if their life depended on it! But yawl will meet again.

QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 22 2013, 09:23 PM) *
LOL are we really going the black route now?? Please DO NOT go there!

And I only brought up his popularity because it's a fact that his accomplishments and his abilities are blown up by casual fans and those who vaulted him into stardom.. He is an all time great and nothing I can do will take away from him going into the HOF, nor would I want it to. But I deal with facts, and the facts are that he had an advantage in the fights that solidified his greatness.

You never heard me say he wasn't good, I just think he's not "as good" as many make him out to be. I'm not some overweight slob who gets his rocks off by hating someone I don't know. I'm not a fanatic, there is nothing I have against Manny or any fighter, I just like to deal in truth and some don't want to admit that his wins from 08 til now aren't as good as they want to believe. My knowledge of the sport of boxing runs deep but my pursuit and demand of truth runs even deeper.

I refuse to alter my words to fit something that is dishonest and in this case, Pacquiao's fights in the timeframe I mentioned should all have * next to them. Now if you attribute that to me and other members on this board having some axe to grind with someone who we've never met, then by all means do so. But like I said before, if you hearing it from multiple sources then their is something to it. There are people on other forums who feel the same way I do and some that feel the way you do. Their's something to be said for both arguments here

+1 I don't get why we have to hate a certain boxer just because we are looking at his career critically and not with rose color HBO commentary glasses. Catch weights, dehydration clauses, not wanting extra testing, not facing prime opposition all play a part for me in evaluating Manny's career. I do not hate the guy but the love and accolades he has received are more do to his popularity than his skill set. I have criticized Floyd on some of his opposition but Floyd never asked for key stipulations for his fights. I just think it is difficult to evaluate Manny without being called a Floyd lover or a Pac basher. Pac is an exciting fighter but he is shaky on somethings. His opposition could have been better but he worked with what he was given.
mrchitown
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 22 2013, 11:37 PM) *
I did not understand that game what so ever. Just give the MVP to James and let it be done! Hell Chris Bosh even had a monster game. Noah looked slow and uninterested and Carlos Bozer I just hate at times. They could not make a shot if their life depended on it! But yawl will meet again.


+1 I don't get why we have to hate a certain boxer just because we are looking at his career critically and not with rose color HBO commentary glasses. Catch weights, dehydration clauses, not wanting extra testing, not facing prime opposition all play a part for me in evaluating Manny's career. I do not hate the guy but the love and accolades he has received are more do to his popularity than his skill set. I have criticized Floyd on some of his opposition but Floyd never asked for key stipulations for his fights. I just think it is difficult to evaluate Manny without being called a Floyd lover or a Pac basher. Pac is an exciting fighter but he is shaky on somethings. His opposition could have been better but he worked with what he was given.


I wish someone would KO Boozer already, he's a disappointment

Agreed also, I don't have issues with any fighter or any other athlete. I'm just expressing my opinion and when one looks objectively at the monstrous streak Manny went on, it is riddled with question marks. We can say the same about Floyd to an extent, RJJ, and other boxers throughout history. However, this thread isn't about them. It's about Manny and his wins the last few yrs have to be scrutinized in a sense.
mgrover
I don't get why people make a massive deal out of catch weights. It was 2 fights. I agree there shouldn't of been a title on the line.
KOpower
I think it is important to find out where you guys that think Manny is overrated feel he deserves to be ranked among this era of fighters. Mayweather is better and I don't think many people will argue. Some people will say Marquez is better. That is a legitimate claim. I still give Manny a solid edge b/c I don't think Marquez would be able to move up and fight the guys Manny fought and have the same success. After those 2, it depends on how far you want to stretch this "era" to. You can include Roy Jones or Bernard Hopkins. If you move it up another 10 or so years then you can include Ward. Manny is still a Top-10 fighter over a 20 or 30 year stretch. That is amazing and that makes him legendary. You can also put him in the Top-5 with no real problem.

I look at Manny as light-weight fighter who fought and beat amazing opposition at the smaller weights....just about cleaning that opposition out. He then moved up to fight a bunch of name p4p guys and whipped them all. That is how I will remember him. He had an amazing run and made a bunch of amazing and exciting fights. He is absolutely one of the best of his era.

KOpower
BTW, it also isn't fair to say that Mayweather never had any stipulations put into place. He did for the Marquez fight. Remember, Floyd didn't even try to make weight b/c all he had to do was pay JMM off. Floyd's recent run of opponents isn't exactly special. A faded Cotto, a faded Mosley, a never-was in Ortiz, the poorly matched fight with JMM, Gatti, Baldomir, and Judah? Floyd has been protected just as much or more than Manny. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Floyd's next 2 fights were with Danny Garcia and Andre Berto before calling it a career.
checkleft
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 23 2013, 10:22 AM) *
BTW, it also isn't fair to say that Mayweather never had any stipulations put into place. He did for the Marquez fight. Remember, Floyd didn't even try to make weight b/c all he had to do was pay JMM off. Floyd's recent run of opponents isn't exactly special. A faded Cotto, a faded Mosley, a never-was in Ortiz, the poorly matched fight with JMM, Gatti, Baldomir, and Judah? Floyd has been protected just as much or more than Manny. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Floyd's next 2 fights were with Danny Garcia and Andre Berto before calling it a career.

I agree but out of your list there are like three names that are obviously safe to me ( baldomir who was on a roll and was fighter of the year, gatti who was a draw at the time, and Juan Manuel because of not making weight).

Ortiz was a powerful punching prospect who just had a war with berto, he wasn't a
"Never was" at the time. Miguel cotto came off his revenge win and the fight wasn't at a catch weight so cotto had the size advantage. And how the hell was anyone suppose to think that mosley was faded at all? That's quite a statement especially since mosley had just obliterated margarito in his previous bout (plus mosley has always had trouble with anyone that has speed and decent timing, forrest, cotto mayweather, manny, mora). A lot of the "cherry picking" you mentioned is from things that happened after Floyd fought them lol.

I think corralles was a big cherry picked fight as well. Wasn't corralles having weight issues? Legal issues? And marital issues? But a lot of people don't mention that fight. Manny just made his safe picks more obvious, and the "belts" he won were Fucking ridiculous. It was honestly making a mockery (a bigger one) of the belt and title system in boxing. Winning belts at catchweights from different weight classes against sub par opposition is seriously a disgrace but most of that was Arums doing not mannys.
Dolimite
QUOTE (KOpower @ Feb 23 2013, 08:22 AM) *
BTW, it also isn't fair to say that Mayweather never had any stipulations put into place. He did for the Marquez fight. Remember, Floyd didn't even try to make weight b/c all he had to do was pay JMM off. Floyd's recent run of opponents isn't exactly special. A faded Cotto, a faded Mosley, a never-was in Ortiz, the poorly matched fight with JMM, Gatti, Baldomir, and Judah? Floyd has been protected just as much or more than Manny. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Floyd's next 2 fights were with Danny Garcia and Andre Berto before calling it a career.


You can't be serious! The Judah fight was actually good up until Zab did his usual thing. Baldomire was a title holder at the time and he needed that fight to get to Oscar. Ortiz was young heavy puncher and dangerous. Just had the fight of the year with Berto so come on. And alot of people said Ortiz had a shot at winning. Shane was not old until Floyd dismantled him, so if he was old why did Pac not fight him "Shane is too good" that is what Roach said! Gatti fight was a showcase for Floyd and as for Juan, two pounds wouldn't of mattered, JMM wasn't winning that fight plus Juan called out Mayweather, and he took the number 1 fighter at the time in Marquez. Let's not change history. Floyd would not waste his time with either fighter. Plus Floyd has always fought guy in his weight division with the exception of Jmm. but again 2 pounds wasn't going to change anything. He even said so. Come on!
checkleft
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 23 2013, 11:08 AM) *
You can't be serious! The Judah fight was actually good up until Zab did his usual thing. Baldomire was a title holder at the time and he needed that fight to get to Oscar. Ortiz was young heavy puncher and dangerous. Just had the fight of the year with Berto so come on. And alot of people said Ortiz had a shot at winning. Shane was not old until Floyd dismantled him, so if he was old why did Pac not fight him "Shane is too good" that is what Roach said! Gatti fight was a showcase for Floyd and as for Juan, two pounds wouldn't of mattered, JMM wasn't winning that fight plus Juan called out Mayweather, and he took the number 1 fighter at the time in Marquez. Let's not change history. Floyd would not waste his time with either fighter. Plus Floyd has always fought guy in his weight division with the exception of Jmm. but again 2 pounds wasn't going to change anything. He even said so. Come on!

It was more than two pounds by fight night bro, it would be naive to think otherwise lol. He just came off a long layoff and didn't make weight (Floyd always makes weight and is in tremendous shape). If he couldn't even make weight he probably rehydrated about 15 pounds or more overnight.
Dolimite
QUOTE (checkleft @ Feb 23 2013, 09:14 AM) *
It was more than two pounds by fight night bro, it would be naive to think otherwise lol. He just came off a long layoff and didn't make weight (Floyd always makes weight and is in tremendous shape). If he couldn't even make weight he probably rehydrated about 15 pounds or more overnight.


I know he wasn't in the 150 section. That I do know and again would it made a difference in the fight? I think not. From what I have read and been told he was over 2 pounds now what did he hydrate to? I know it was a catch weight fight and it changed for 140-146 to 147. So what I am saying is Marquez weight 144 I believe and May came in at 147 give or take since that is the limit, all I am saying is the weight would not of made a big difference. Marquez lost every round due to skill and not weight.
checkleft
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 23 2013, 11:24 AM) *
I know he wasn't in the 150 section. That I do know and again would it made a difference in the fight? I think not. From what I have read and been told he was over 2 pounds now what did he hydrate to? I know it was a catch weight fight and it changed for 140-146 to 147. So what I am saying is Marquez weight 144 I believe and May came in at 147 give or take since that is the limit, all I am saying is the weight would not of made a big difference. Marquez lost every round due to skill and not weight.

Your completely right, it definitely would not have made a difference but 2 pounds over the limit at the weigh in more than likely turned into 10-15 overnight.
Dolimite
QUOTE (checkleft @ Feb 23 2013, 08:31 AM) *
Your completely right, it definitely would not have made a difference but 2 pounds over the limit at the weigh in more than likely turned into 10-15 overnight.


So what was the final weighs for both fighters on fight night?
checkleft
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 23 2013, 02:17 PM) *
So what was the final weighs for both fighters on fight night?

I think that was like the 1 mayweather fight they did not have unofficially weights on fight night for, don't think it was by accident either.
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