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Full Version: Is he better now or then?? Is his legs gone?? (Floyd Mayweather)
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BrutUalBK
Many people say that Floyd is better today than he was years ago but honestly I must say that the younger, faster Floyd got hit far less than he does today and I know that makes for a more action-packed/competitive bout because he's taking more risks standing in the pocket and trading but he never got hit as much when he was using his legs more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ <<<His Defensive abilities

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ <<<His Offensive abilities


Though the uneducated casual observer (those who do not know the difference between Boxing and Brawling) would say he was a Runner, I still favored his earlier style using his legs to box and not get hit than I do the more Crowd Pleasing Style today.

So, is he better today or then? Or did he lose a step or two??

Your thoughts???
mgrover
we'll see in the Guererro fight if his legs are gone, I think they might be to be honest, I mean now for a while he's not been moving around the ring that much, and fight by fight hes standing in the pocket more. I don't believe its because he wants a fan friendly style I think its more because he can't do what he used to, I mean not everybody can be Hopkins.

He's definitely more experienced, I think a match with someone like Castillo with his experience now at the first fight would be a different story
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 12 2013, 07:31 PM) *
we'll see in the Guererro fight if his legs are gone, I think they might be to be honest, I mean now for a while he's not been moving around the ring that much, and fight by fight hes standing in the pocket more. I don't believe its because he wants a fan friendly style I think its more because he can't do what he used to, I mean not everybody can be Hopkins.

He's definitely more experienced, I think a match with someone like Castillo with his experience now at the first fight would be a different story


well said.
pimpfighterROQ
Well he is 36 now. That is old in boxing standards. Even though he's defense is in a class of its own...the training he goes through. It's wear and tear on the body. But he's so good that even with this readily forseen handicap, I don't see him losing anytime soon.
daprofessor
QUOTE (pimpfighterROQ @ Feb 12 2013, 08:04 PM) *
Well he is 36 now. That is old in boxing standards. Even though he's defense is in a class of its own...the training he goes through. It's wear and tear on the body. But he's so good that even with this readily forseen handicap, I don't see him losing anytime soon.


i think guerrero is going to make him look all of his 36 yrs.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 12 2013, 06:31 PM) *
we'll see in the Guererro fight if his legs are gone, I think they might be to be honest, I mean now for a while he's not been moving around the ring that much, and fight by fight hes standing in the pocket more. I don't believe its because he wants a fan friendly style I think its more because he can't do what he used to, I mean not everybody can be Hopkins.

He's definitely more experienced, I think a match with someone like Castillo with his experience now at the first fight would be a different story



I agree with this. He just can't move with those reflexes anymore, even his timing and accuracy of throwing punches has been off, he misses more often now than ever before. The time may be now and right for the right fighter to come along and knock him off his perch but they'll still have to get through his artful defense.
checkleft
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 12 2013, 06:03 PM) *
Many people say that Floyd is better today than he was years ago but honestly I must say that the younger, faster Floyd got hit far less than he does today and I know that makes for a more action-packed/competitive bout because he's taking more risks standing in the pocket and trading but he never got hit as much when he was using his legs more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ <<<His Defensive abilities

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9en6g9JTQ <<<His Offensive abilities


Though the uneducated casual observer (those who do not know the difference between Boxing and Brawling) would say he was a Runner, I still favored his earlier style using his legs to box and not get hit than I do the more Crowd Pleasing Style today.

So, is he better today or then? Or did he lose a step or two??

Your thoughts???


He just doesn't use them. He can move

In boxing if you use your legs too much you end up getting caught in a position your at a disadvantage or you'll get hit pulling back. Plus floyds upper body movement is so good why move much? And as you guys have mentioned he is a lot older so getting hit pulling back could be disasterous.
mrchitown
I don't know if I'd say his legs are gone, but he's slowed down some and I noticed that in the Ortiz fight. He won but it wasn't what most of his fans are used to seeing from him. The Cotto fight only reinforced that he's slowed down. But that's to be expected. He is turning 36 this month.

Given that though, he's still head and shoulders above the competition due to his defensive abilities and his boxing IQ. As far as him being better now or then, it depends on what your looking at or for. Regardless if he fights Canelo later this yr and Guerrero in May, I think he wins both fights. I see nothing in Guerrero that makes him a formidable foe for Mayweather. The people championing his performances at WW make me lol
checkleft
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 12 2013, 09:59 PM) *
I don't know if I'd say his legs are gone, but he's slowed down some and I noticed that in the Ortiz fight. He won but it wasn't what most of his fans are used to seeing from him. The Cotto fight only reinforced that he's slowed down. But that's to be expected. He is turning 36 this month.

Given that though, he's still head and shoulders above the competition due to his defensive abilities and his boxing IQ. As far as him being better now or then, it depends on what your looking at or for. Regardless if he fights Canelo later this yr and Guerrero in May, I think he wins both fights. I see nothing in Guerrero that makes him a formidable foe for Mayweather. The people championing his performances at WW make me lol

+1

Completely agree. Alexander has a better resume even tho both dont deserve the fight, but there isn't enough competition. Who has guerrero fought? A laid off coming off a loss berto and a unheard of untested untelevised foreigner. Not to mention he needed to use a bunch of dirty tactics and blind California refs to do it
mitukczuk
I don't understand how this can even be an issue to some people. Hes 36 goddamn years old, of course he is not "running" around the ring like he used to, of course his reflexes are slower etc.
What is more important to me is the way how he adapted to his body getting older. He is not trying to outrun father time and do all the "running" as if he was in his 20s. He uses his upper body more, stands in the pocket more and exploits his opponent's weaknesses better. You can still count noticeable and big punches that hit him throughout the WHOLE fight on one hand.

That to me is much more interesting than his legs POSSIBLY getting shut. I believe that he could still use them for 15 rounds if he wanted or was forced to. His training regimen is second to none. (B-Hop comes to mind though).

Not many fighters can adapt to the schedule of father time.

I am a fan of Floyd so I may be a little bit biased. But I have never seen somebodys legs being discussed as much as Floyds....as if his legs were the only one in the world biggrin.gif
mgrover
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Feb 13 2013, 09:04 AM) *
I don't understand how this can even be an issue to some people. Hes 36 goddamn years old, of course he is not "running" around the ring like he used to, of course his reflexes are slower etc.
What is more important to me is the way how he adapted to his body getting older. He is not trying to outrun father time and do all the "running" as if he was in his 20s. He uses his upper body more, stands in the pocket more and exploits his opponent's weaknesses better. You can still count noticeable and big punches that hit him throughout the WHOLE fight on one hand.

That to me is much more interesting than his legs POSSIBLY getting shut. I believe that he could still use them for 15 rounds if he wanted or was forced to. His training regimen is second to none. (B-Hop comes to mind though).

Not many fighters can adapt to the schedule of father time.

I am a fan of Floyd so I may be a little bit biased. But I have never seen somebodys legs being discussed as much as Floyds....as if his legs were the only one in the world biggrin.gif


Its just because of the contrast in his styles I think, it was the same with Ali when he came back, his legs were gone
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mgrover @ Feb 13 2013, 08:20 AM) *
Its just because of the contrast in his styles I think, it was the same with Ali when he came back, his legs were gone



Yeah, I remember that Ali wasn't able to even get away from a lumbering George Foreman and because of that he invented the Rope-A-Dope but at that time I remembering believing that Muhammad was not able to move like he used to.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (checkleft @ Feb 12 2013, 09:35 PM) *
He just doesn't use them. He can move

In boxing if you use your legs too much you end up getting caught in a position your at a disadvantage or you'll get hit pulling back. Plus floyds upper body movement is so good why move much? And as you guys have mentioned he is a lot older so getting hit pulling back could be disasterous.



That mostly happens when you pull straight back, Floyd is too skilled to make a novice mistake like pulling straight back, he always boxes in circles/circling his opponent.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Feb 12 2013, 09:59 PM) *
I don't know if I'd say his legs are gone, but he's slowed down some and I noticed that in the Ortiz fight. He won but it wasn't what most of his fans are used to seeing from him. The Cotto fight only reinforced that he's slowed down. But that's to be expected. He is turning 36 this month.

Given that though, he's still head and shoulders above the competition due to his defensive abilities and his boxing IQ. As far as him being better now or then, it depends on what your looking at or for. Regardless if he fights Canelo later this yr and Guerrero in May, I think he wins both fights. I see nothing in Guerrero that makes him a formidable foe for Mayweather. The people championing his performances at WW make me lol



+1
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mitukczuk @ Feb 13 2013, 04:04 AM) *
I don't understand how this can even be an issue to some people. Hes 36 goddamn years old, of course he is not "running" around the ring like he used to, of course his reflexes are slower etc.
What is more important to me is the way how he adapted to his body getting older. He is not trying to outrun father time and do all the "running" as if he was in his 20s. He uses his upper body more, stands in the pocket more and exploits his opponent's weaknesses better. You can still count noticeable and big punches that hit him throughout the WHOLE fight on one hand.

That to me is much more interesting than his legs POSSIBLY getting shut. I believe that he could still use them for 15 rounds if he wanted or was forced to. His training regimen is second to none. (B-Hop comes to mind though).

Not many fighters can adapt to the schedule of father time.

I am a fan of Floyd so I may be a little bit biased. But I have never seen somebodys legs being discussed as much as Floyds....as if his legs were the only one in the world biggrin.gif



While I agree with your post, and I'm a big Floyd fan too (and may be somewhat biased) I do try to be realistic though which is why I asked the question. I'm not saying that Floyd is totally immobile or not able to move for a couple of rounds if he had to but in essence we all know he's slowed down a lot due to age, but honestly though I know his training regimen is second to none still we have to acknowledge that while he still gets hit not as much as most fighters that he does tend to take more punishment now that he doesn't use his legs as much.

FYI, I would never have referred to his previous style as "running", I thought he used his legs/footwork superbly and that enabled him to hit and not be hit better than any fighter I've ever seen>>>>including the greats SRR and SRL.
Cshel86
I'm almost convinced that Floyd fans are making me not like the guy nowadays. laugh.gif

On a real note, I have seen him slow down a bit in his last few fights. Maybe he just super relaxed, who knows? As for his legs, I believe they were terrible in the Mosley fight. Well, not terrible, but not in tip top shape. Im not harping on Mosley being a pubic's hair length away from dropping him in the 2nd round, but overall.

For some reason, Floyd's body language in the Mosley and Cotto fights, gave me a hunch that he was somewhat forced into those fights. Honestly, his "hit and not get hit" fighting style, seemed have a liiiitle bit more added pressure than we're used to seeing, and I incorporate that his PPV rivalries with Manny over the past few years.

What I mean by PPV rivalries, is of course his opponent selection, overall numbers, and the pressure to not look bad for one second in his recent fights. Let's all be honest here, most (if not all of us) were looking for signs of wear & tear in both of these guys as they went head up in rivalry PPV events. People were buying both of their fights, to see who looked better (or worse), which added more buss to the fight.

Nowadays, I dont necessarily believe his legs are gone, but we don't see him circling around the ring like we used to. In the 12th round of the Cotto fight, he didn't look like himself while circling the ring, but that's just my observation. Its not a question as to whether grandfather time has caught up with him, the bigger question is, who has enough skill and patience to expose?
daprofessor
i'll echo what someone else said...of course his legs aren't what they used to be...it's part of the aging process. i'll also add...that with his legs slightly diminishing, we are going to see floyd do things that we've never seen him do before. at the end of the day...floyd is no joke and he is just the way brother nazim described him...."he will sprout wings and start spitting fire balls..." i have yet to see someone step on his tail, step around him and attack again. it'll be a sad day if and when that happens...but i get the feeling floyd ain't going down without a fight.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 13 2013, 12:41 PM) *
1.I'm almost convinced that Floyd fans are making me not like the guy nowadays. laugh.gif

On a real note, I have seen him slow down a bit in his last few fights. Maybe he just super relaxed, who knows? 2.As for his legs, I believe they were terrible in the Mosley fight. Well, not terrible, but not in tip top shape. Im not harping on Mosley being a pubic's hair length away from dropping him in the 2nd round, but overall.

For some reason, Floyd's body language in the Mosley and Cotto fights, gave me a hunch that3. he was somewhat forced into those fights. Honestly, his "hit and not get hit" fighting style, seemed have a liiiitle bit more added pressure than we're used to seeing, and I incorporate that his PPV rivalries with Manny over the past few years.

What I mean by PPV rivalries, is of course his opponent selection, overall numbers, and the pressure to not look bad for one second in his recent fights. Let's all be honest here, most (if not all of us) were looking for signs of wear & tear in both of these guys as they went head up in rivalry PPV events. 4.People were buying both of their fights, to see who looked better (or worse), which added more buss to the fight.

Nowadays, I dont necessarily believe his legs are gone, but we don't see him circling around the ring like we used to. In the 12th round of the Cotto fight, he didn't look like himself while circling the ring, but that's just my observation. Its not a question as to whether grandfather time has caught up with him, the bigger question is, 5.who has enough skill and patience to expose?


1. The thing I've noticed though in regards to most Floyd fans is that they do tend to be more fans of the sport instead of just a bandwagon Mayweather fan and they tend to be more realistic than most of these internet Pacquiao fans.

2. I thought his legs looked like they sustained him well in the fight with Shane, in fact, I'd go so far to say that he was very fortunate to have had those stronger legs otherwise he would've hit the canvas.

3. I disagree that Floyd was forced into those fights, I believe he wanted Shane a long time ago and Cotto as well. Try not to forget that Cotto was a Top Rank fighter protected by Bob Arum from Floyd for a long time, if I can recall correctly when Bob was trying to get Margo the fight with Floyd that Mayweather only wanted that fight if it included a bout with Cotto for 10 million but Arum balked at the idea. <<<I might be wrong on that but I do remember vaguely that there was a couple of bouts Floyd asked Bob for and one of them included Cotto for 10 mil.

4. I think many people started to look for comparisons of Floyd to Manny and vice versa as if that would determine who would win, I can recall many debates with fans of Pac that stated stuff like well he beat Oscar and Ricky better and from some Mayweather fans stating well he beat JMM far easier and he beat Oscar first and not at a CW. So you're right, people were doing some sort of reckoning but i don't think none of that would've mattered if they were to get it on.

5. Skill will definitely be a plus when dealing with Floyd but patience will not get it done, you need someone with a high work rate a great jab, equal or better speed and equal or better defense to beat Floyd and then after that you still need someone with a high ring IQ. Honestly right now there are only about 2 guys I can think of that have those things that can offset Floyd's skills, Martinez and Trout.

Tall, rangy, SPs with a great jab and enough pop will help to keep Floyd honest but there aren't that many of them in the game today and especially in the WW or Jr MW division.
Dolimite
If he fights toe to toe he is losing his legs, if he circles around his opponent he is boring and "running if he engages with an opponent and is willing to get hit he has lost a step and his defense is not as strong, if he pots shot all night he is scared to engage nea.gif no matter how he fights he will have critics. I guess it comes with the territory.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 13 2013, 02:16 PM) *
Tall, rangy, SPs with a great jab and enough pop will help to keep Floyd honest but there aren't that many of them in the game today and especially in the WW or Jr MW division.


I don't think this one will do it either....at least not the majority of the fight. This SP (let's not pretend we don't know who it's going to be), gets gassed...this is NEVER good when fighting Floyd....NEVER.

I agree w/ the premise, he's 36 y/o and rarely in sports, if ever, are you better at 36 than 26 (at least not w/o "supplements"). That being said, yes, he doesn't have the same legs, but that's not the important variable. He can lose some of his legs, but if he still possesses enough to beat 95% (if not all) fighters in his class, what's the point? Like they say, "win this fight, look good in the next one"

bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 13 2013, 12:41 PM) *
I'm almost convinced that Floyd fans are making me not like the guy nowadays. laugh.gif

On a real note, I have seen him slow down a bit in his last few fights. Maybe he just super relaxed, who knows? As for his legs, I believe they were terrible in the Mosley fight. Well, not terrible, but not in tip top shape. Im not harping on Mosley being a pubic's hair length away from dropping him in the 2nd round, but overall.

For some reason, Floyd's body language in the Mosley and Cotto fights, gave me a hunch that he was somewhat forced into those fights. Honestly, his "hit and not get hit" fighting style, seemed have a liiiitle bit more added pressure than we're used to seeing, and I incorporate that his PPV rivalries with Manny over the past few years.


On the contrary, I thought his legs looked good...dayum good (to include and ESPECIALLY his near death experience w/ those two Mosley rights..lol). I think that was part of the plan w/ him. He said early in the that training, he wasn't going to move and what not, he was gonna walk him down. Because that fight was personal to Floyd (though he won't admit it), I believe he and Roger (okay...just Floyd..lol) devised a plan to KO Shane. He knew then what we all KNOW about Shane now, when the going gets tough, Shane wants to touch gloves and hold. So, in short, I think that was more game plan than it was aging. Plus, this wasn't an issue until Freddie Roach jumped out of the bushes like Eddie Cain from 5 Heartbeats, with the whole, "Floyd's legs are gone..."
Cshel86
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 13 2013, 02:16 PM) *
1. The thing I've noticed though in regards to most Floyd fans is that they do tend to be more fans of the sport instead of just a bandwagon Mayweather fan and they tend to be more realistic than most of these internet Pacquiao fans.

2. I thought his legs looked like they sustained him well in the fight with Shane, in fact, I'd go so far to say that he was very fortunate to have had those stronger legs otherwise he would've hit the canvas.

3. I disagree that Floyd was forced into those fights, I believe he wanted Shane a long time ago and Cotto as well. Try not to forget that Cotto was a Top Rank fighter protected by Bob Arum from Floyd for a long time, if I can recall correctly when Bob was trying to get Margo the fight with Floyd that Mayweather only wanted that fight if it included a bout with Cotto for 10 million but Arum balked at the idea. <<<I might be wrong on that but I do remember vaguely that there was a couple of bouts Floyd asked Bob for and one of them included Cotto for 10 mil.

4. I think many people started to look for comparisons of Floyd to Manny and vice versa as if that would determine who would win, I can recall many debates with fans of Pac that stated stuff like well he beat Oscar and Ricky better and from some Mayweather fans stating well he beat JMM far easier and he beat Oscar first and not at a CW. So you're right, people were doing some sort of reckoning but i don't think none of that would've mattered if they were to get it on.

5. Skill will definitely be a plus when dealing with Floyd but patience will not get it done, you need someone with a high work rate a great jab, equal or better speed and equal or better defense to beat Floyd and then after that you still need someone with a high ring IQ. Honestly right now there are only about 2 guys I can think of that have those things that can offset Floyd's skills, Martinez and Trout.

Tall, rangy, SPs with a great jab and enough pop will help to keep Floyd honest but there aren't that many of them in the game today and especially in the WW or Jr MW division.

1. I somewhat disagree with this point about Floyd fans being fans of the sport. There are some guys around here, that we ONLY hear from when some news has broken about Floyd. If they "appear" to know anything about the sport, it usually consists of them reciting some mumbo jumbo that came from his mouth, or their points usually begin with, "Well, back in 2007 when Floyd fought Oscar...". Again, I have to somewhat disagree with the point, but on the other hand, Floyd does educate his fans about the sport, so it's more of a 55/45 deal, now that I sit back and look at it.

2. I can rock with you on this point. Had his legs been that bad, then yes, he would've gone down. I was speaking of his legs throughout the fight...maybe he just didnt appear in most rounds. Of course that's just my observation though.

3. He did want Shane and Cotto years ago, we ALL know the stories behind that. The thing is, at his point of his career, both guys (Shane and Cotto) had NOTHING to lose, which made them somewhat of a substantial threat. Floyd on the other hand, had everything to lose. He pretty much gave Shane and Miguel a breath of new life when he agreed to fight them, and we both know that those guys are/were dangerous, and had fought some stiff competition throughout their careers.

4. Agreed, totally. The people that mattered (the actual buyers) were seeing who still had what left in the tank, and as we hardcore fans know, the result of the fight would've been what we originally predicted. The buyers saw what they wanted to see, which worked for both guys, and there's no turning back once you hit that "buy" button, so everybody won in that case. Well, now that I think about it, we ALL actually lost...the fight still hasn't happened. We've been duped here! laugh.gif

5. I dont know. Going into the fight, I think his opponents think "high work rate", but when it falls through, that "high work rate" looks like a game of cat and mouse gone terribly wrong. We can eve throw the coyote and road runner games in there, add others if you will. Lol. When that high work rate falls through, a guy still has to be patient, and as you mentioned, they need the ring IQ to pull this off. I guess I'll settle with a guy needing good timing, but that goes along with ring IQ, so you're right here. All of those characteristics that a fighter needs (tall, rangy, southpaw, high work rate) dont matter...especially if they're used wrong. Again, you pretty much made your point with the ring IQ part.

QUOTE (Dolimite @ Feb 13 2013, 10:11 PM) *
If he fights toe to toe he is losing his legs, if he circles around his opponent he is boring and "running if he engages with an opponent and is willing to get hit he has lost a step and his defense is not as strong, if he pots shot all night he is scared to engage nea.gif no matter how he fights he will have critics. I guess it comes with the territory.

Is that you, Floyd???
Cshel86
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Feb 14 2013, 08:47 AM) *
On the contrary, I thought his legs looked good...dayum good (to include and ESPECIALLY his near death experience w/ those two Mosley rights..lol). I think that was part of the plan w/ him. He said early in the that training, he wasn't going to move and what not, he was gonna walk him down. Because that fight was personal to Floyd (though he won't admit it), I believe he and Roger (okay...just Floyd..lol) devised a plan to KO Shane. He knew then what we all KNOW about Shane now, when the going gets tough, Shane wants to touch gloves and hold. So, in short, I think that was more game plan than it was aging. Plus, this wasn't an issue until Freddie Roach jumped out of the bushes like Eddie Cain from 5 Heartbeats, with the whole, "Floyd's legs are gone..."

LMAO at "jumped out of the bushes like Eddie Cain"!

I agree though, nobody even mentioned Floyd's legs, until Freddie mentioned it. Now that you mentioned the Shane fight being personal, maybe that's why I though Floyd looked a bit unsettled. Again, that's just my observation...for what reason, I dont know, it just appeared that way.

As Brut already mentioned, if his legs were gone, then he would've gone down on those two right hands. He DID keep the pressure on Shane, which led me to believe that he was going for the KO. I almost compared it to miserable white-collar employee going balls-deep in $2 prost...well, you get my point.

I just like to throw some things out there, and see what you guys think...you know, just to stir things up a bit. cool.gif
Dolimite
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 14 2013, 09:05 AM) *
Is that you, Floyd???


Am I wrong? Rather I am Floyd or not whatever he does people bitch.
The Original MrFactor
The Mayweather that beat the snot out of Diego Corrales was the best I'd ever seen him.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Feb 15 2013, 03:10 PM) *
The Mayweather that beat the snot out of Diego Corrales was the best I'd ever seen him.


I agree, he put on a boxing clinic and IMO he will never look that great again.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ Feb 14 2013, 09:12 AM) *
LMAO at "jumped out of the bushes like Eddie Cain"!

I agree though, nobody even mentioned Floyd's legs, until Freddie mentioned it. Now that you mentioned the Shane fight being personal, maybe that's why I though Floyd looked a bit unsettled. Again, that's just my observation...for what reason, I dont know, it just appeared that way.

I agree. I remember watching 24/7 when Floyd called Shane a "fuck'n dummy!" I thought that was a bit (can't believe I'm saying this) out of character for him. I sensed a bit of "this is serious shit, so I'm dialed in" about him...at least more than usual.

As Brut already mentioned, if his legs were gone, then he would've gone down on those two right hands. He DID keep the pressure on Shane, which led me to believe that he was going for the KO. I almost compared it to miserable white-collar employee going balls-deep in $2 prost...well, you get my point.

I just like to throw some things out there, and see what you guys think...you know, just to stir things up a bit. cool.gif


I agree. I remember watching 24/7 when Floyd called Shane a "fuck'n dummy!" I thought that was a bit (can't believe I'm saying this) out of character for him. I sensed a bit of "this is serious shit, so I'm dialed in" about him...at least more than usual.


As Brut already mentioned, if his legs were gone, then he would've gone down on those two right hands. He DID keep the pressure on Shane, which led me to believe that he was going for the KO. I almost compared it to miserable white-collar employee going balls-deep in $2 prost...well, you get my point.

Uuuuuugggghhhhhhh
neophyte7
Last I checked Floyd had both of his legs... when did he lose them!!! Please... The man is 36 and sits in the pocket while still maintaining the best not get hit % ever-- go away with this legs gone bullshit
checkleft
His legs were great in the Shane fight. Watch the fight, if your a boxer you might learn a thing or two.
MaxPayne
I don't buy this.

He was using his wheels in the Cotto fight, specifically rounds 9 through 12.

When we say that a fighter's "legs are gone", we're suggesting that they can't move and keep a certain pace far into a fight. That's not the case with Floyd right now.

Now, is he as fleet of foot as he was 10 years ago ? Fuck no.

But his current foot speed is still better than 95% of the fighters anywhere near his weight class.
neophyte7
In boxing you don't need foot speed. You need good balance and the ability to use your legs when necessary. His ability to box and move is still the best in the game. People say his legs were gone in the Ortiz fight??? please Floyd looked tremendous in that fight - hand and foot. I recall him unloading what seemed to be a 10 punch combo on Victor I believe in round three. Ortiz resorted to fouling for a reason.. He could not maul Floyd and was getting drilled with bomb right hands. I think Floyd can still move a great deal in a fight, yet there has been no reason to. Fighters still are not able to land enough quality punches. Cotto bloodied his nose, but really how many clean power shots did he land? Floyd did not have a world beating connect percentage on Cotto yet he clearly landed many more flush hard and damaging shots. Floyd simply does not get hit enough in damaging fashion to be beaten at this point. Even when guys look like they are landing shots, they often are rolled and slipped... No need to waste energy moving at 36 conserve the wheels. But yes, his legs were definitely good in the mosely fight- those legs and his saavy awareness allowed him to remain on his feet from some monster shane mosley shots. We saw what those same shots eventually did to Margarito- problem was Shane was not able to land any meaningful punches thereafter against the best defensive fighter ever-
bnoles4life
QUOTE (MaxPayne @ Feb 19 2013, 06:11 AM) *
I don't buy this.

He was using his wheels in the Cotto fight, specifically rounds 9 through 12.

When we say that a fighter's "legs are gone", we're suggesting that they can't move and keep a certain pace far into a fight. That's not the case with Floyd right now.

Now, is he as fleet of foot as he was 10 years ago ? Fuck no.

But his current foot speed is still better than 95% of the fighters anywhere near his weight class.


Pretty much spit the same thing out a few posts ago.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 19 2013, 12:03 PM) *
In boxing you don't need foot speed. You need good balance and the ability to use your legs when necessary. His ability to box and move is still the best in the game. People say his legs were gone in the Ortiz fight??? please Floyd looked tremendous in that fight - hand and foot. I recall him unloading what seemed to be a 10 punch combo on Victor I believe in round three. Ortiz resorted to fouling for a reason.. He could not maul Floyd and was getting drilled with bomb right hands. I think Floyd can still move a great deal in a fight, yet there has been no reason to. Fighters still are not able to land enough quality punches. Cotto bloodied his nose, but really how many clean power shots did he land? Floyd did not have a world beating connect percentage on Cotto yet he clearly landed many more flush hard and damaging shots. Floyd simply does not get hit enough in damaging fashion to be beaten at this point. Even when guys look like they are landing shots, they often are rolled and slipped... No need to waste energy moving at 36 conserve the wheels. But yes, his legs were definitely good in the mosely fight- those legs and his saavy awareness allowed him to remain on his feet from some monster shane mosley shots. We saw what those same shots eventually did to Margarito- problem was Shane was not able to land any meaningful punches thereafter against the best defensive fighter ever-


Co-sign the majority of this.
bnoles4life
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 15 2013, 11:07 PM) *
I agree, he put on a boxing clinic and IMO he will never look that great again.


There's no shame in that, b/c if you think about it, that's a taaaaaaaall order. He was flawless in that fight, care to guess how hard it is to duplicate perfection? Plus, he's established and there aren't many "stalk and destroy" fighters out there, willing to just get picked apart in hopes of landing A single shot on him. I think he's already proved that game plan to not be worth the paper it's printed on. LOL.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Feb 19 2013, 12:31 PM) *
There's no shame in that, b/c if you think about it, that's a taaaaaaaall order. He was flawless in that fight, care to guess how hard it is to duplicate perfection? Plus, he's established and there aren't many "stalk and destroy" fighters out there, willing to just get picked apart in hopes of landing A single shot on him. I think he's already proved that game plan to not be worth the paper it's printed on. LOL.



I agree there's no shame but in terms of how he fought that fight it should be recognized that he'll never have a signature performance like that. Floyd barely got hit at all in that bout, plus he made Corrales miss something like 8 jabs (who misses with a jab??) and that rarely happens in boxing.

Though i believe he has lost a step (due to age) I still believe his skills are well-rounded enough to deal with anyone in the sport in his weight classes so though he's lost some measure of mobility (however small) he is still as effective as ever offensively but tends to get hit (though not always cleanly) more often than he did at 130.
sduck
Nope, nope, nope, and...NOPE!

The only clear decline I see and still ever saw is punching power. His reflexes look sharper in some fights than other fights... It's called human consistency. You also have to look at the way people fight. Styles make fights guys, stop forgetting this. People make too big of a deal out of some performances. Like Corrales for example was tailor made for the way Floyd chose to fight. Not taking anything from Floyd, giving him credit for pulling the performance off as good as he did, but that fight itself doesn't just determine how else he'd do against other fighters.

Why do people still mention the Castillo fight as if there wasn't TWO fights?
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (sduck @ Feb 22 2013, 07:23 AM) *
Nope, nope, nope, and...NOPE!

The only clear decline I see and still ever saw is 1. punching power. His reflexes look sharper in some fights than other fights... It's called human consistency. You also have to look at the way people fight. Styles make fights guys, stop forgetting this. People make too big of a deal out of some performances. Like Corrales for example was tailor made for the way Floyd chose to fight. Not taking anything from Floyd, giving him credit for pulling the performance off as good as he did, but that fight itself doesn't just determine how else he'd do against other fighters.

2. Why do people still mention the Castillo fight as if there wasn't TWO fights?



1. I don't think Floyd has lost punching power (see the Ortiz KO for reference), I do believe that he has never been a big puncher but one who's punches come very quickly and the speed of which they come are stunning/surprising to the opponent. I always believed that it was possible for Floyd to KO many of his opponents but he never really sets down on his shots and that is why his punching power isn't perceived to be as good<<<the Ortiz punch KO dispells that myth.

2. Most of us only mention that fight because it is one in which many felt he lost and if not, at least it was probably his most closely contested fight, as much a fan I'am of his I have to admit that I felt he lost that fight but wasn't dominated/beaten. In the rematch he made it obvious that he won.
Dolimite
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 22 2013, 03:44 PM) *
1. I don't think Floyd has lost punching power (see the Ortiz KO for reference), I do believe that he has never been a big puncher but one who's punches come very quickly and the speed of which they come are stunning/surprising to the opponent. I always believed that it was possible for Floyd to KO many of his opponents but he never really sets down on his shots and that is why his punching power isn't perceived to be as good<<<the Ortiz punch KO dispells that myth.

2. Most of us only mention that fight because it is one in which many felt he lost and if not, at least it was probably his most closely contested fight, as much a fan I'am of his I have to admit that I felt he lost that fight but wasn't dominated/beaten. In the rematch he made it obvious that he won.


Dude I still have trouble judging that first fight. I actually looked at it as a draw. I do not think Castillo fought a clean fight and in the end it cost him. The second fight was no contest win for Mayweather. But that is the hardest fight I ever had to judge. Your honesty is appreciated. Some Floyd fans think that he was perfect in that first fight. I thought it was a draw, plus I do give him a slight pass because of his shoulder injury.
sduck
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 22 2013, 06:44 PM) *
1. I don't think Floyd has lost punching power (see the Ortiz KO for reference), I do believe that he has never been a big puncher but one who's punches come very quickly and the speed of which they come are stunning/surprising to the opponent. I always believed that it was possible for Floyd to KO many of his opponents but he never really sets down on his shots and that is why his punching power isn't perceived to be as good<<<the Ortiz punch KO dispells that myth.

2. Most of us only mention that fight because it is one in which many felt he lost and if not, at least it was probably his most closely contested fight, as much a fan I'am of his I have to admit that I felt he lost that fight but wasn't dominated/beaten. In the rematch he made it obvious that he won.

I've watched all of Floyd's fights, all 43 of them. He has consistency issues over all, and is the most versatile fighter I've ever seen. It's easy to nitpick fights and judge from those, but for someone like Floyd you can't do that very accurately. The only true decline I've saw was his punching power, which is also another thing that seems to be inconsistent. He was known to be a power puncher in his earlier fights, which gambles between fights which I said was his consistency. It didn't completely diminish until his return in 2009 with the Marquez fight and on. And uh, Ortiz obviously lost his head and gave up the fight. Dude barely tried to get up and just smiled as he was counted out.
(For further reference on consistency, it's like how he battered Gatti or Corley, looking much stronger compared to many other fights... Or how he looked feather-fisted against Baldomir compared to his fights with Judah and De La Hoya... These are only some examples, but part of it over all is probably him choosing to hit harder in some fights compared to others, or being force too based on the style and whatnot. But he also states things like him going for the knockout in his fights with Marquez and Mosley, but then it looked clear to me his punching power just couldn't hold up to how he wanted like in previous bouts.)

The issue I see with people always mentioning that fight, is how they ignore the significance of the second fight. And when they do acknowledge the second fight, it's just put simple, "oh well he proved all doubt". Both fighters fought just about exactly the same way in both fights, it wasn't flat out "experience" improvement (like on defense) as I see many people keep saying, Floyd was just sharper and more on point with his game, and made Castillo look more ordinary compared to the first fight. The only real experience accounted for there was knowing Castillo more as a fighter from the first bout.
Dolimite
QUOTE (sduck @ Feb 22 2013, 06:46 PM) *
I've watched all of Floyd's fights, all 43 of them. He has consistency issues over all, and is the most versatile fighter I've ever seen. It's easy to nitpick fights and judge from those, but for someone like Floyd you can't do that very accurately. The only true decline I've saw was his punching power, which is also another thing that seems to be inconsistent. He was known to be a power puncher in his earlier fights, which gambles between fights which I said was his consistency. It didn't completely diminish until his return in 2009 with the Marquez fight and on. And uh, Ortiz obviously lost his head and gave up the fight. Dude barely tried to get up and just smiled as he was counted out.
(For further reference on consistency, it's like how he battered Gatti or Corley, looking much stronger compared to many other fights... Or how he looked feather-fisted against Baldomir compared to his fights with Judah and De La Hoya... These are only some examples, but part of it over all is probably him choosing to hit harder in some fights compared to others, or being force too based on the style and whatnot. But he also states things like him going for the knockout in his fights with Marquez and Mosley, but then it looked clear to me his punching power just couldn't hold up to how he wanted like in previous bouts.)

The issue I see with people always mentioning that fight, is how they ignore the significance of the second fight. And when they do acknowledge the second fight, it's just put simple, "oh well he proved all doubt". Both fighters fought just about exactly the same way in both fights, it wasn't flat out "experience" improvement (like on defense) as I see many people keep saying, Floyd was just sharper and more on point with his game, and made Castillo look more ordinary compared to the first fight. The only real experience accounted for there was knowing Castillo more as a fighter from the first bout.


I know Floyd complained of his hands being brittle and breaking. I know that is why he doesn't always go for the knockout. Unlike Broner, Floyd's hands are not made of stone, but his knockout percentage is still high. Good points.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (sduck @ Feb 22 2013, 09:46 PM) *
1. I've watched all of Floyd's fights, all 43 of them. He has consistency issues over all, and is the most versatile fighter I've ever seen. It's easy to nitpick fights and judge from those, but for someone like Floyd you can't do that very accurately. The only true decline I've saw was his punching power, which is also another thing that seems to be inconsistent. He was known to be a power puncher in his earlier fights, which gambles between fights which I said was his consistency. It didn't completely diminish until his return in 2009 with the Marquez fight and on. And uh, Ortiz obviously lost his head and gave up the fight. Dude barely tried to get up and just smiled as he was counted out.
(For further reference on consistency, it's like how he battered Gatti or Corley, looking much stronger compared to many other fights... Or how he looked feather-fisted against Baldomir compared to his fights with Judah and De La Hoya..
. These are only some examples, but part of it over all is probably him choosing to hit harder in some fights compared to others, or being force too based on the style and whatnot. But he also states things like him going for the knockout in his fights with Marquez and Mosley, but then it looked clear to me his punching power just couldn't hold up to how he wanted like in previous bouts.)

2. The issue I see with people always mentioning that fight, is how they ignore the significance of the second fight. And when they do acknowledge the second fight, it's just put simple, "oh well he proved all doubt". Both fighters fought just about exactly the same way in both fights, it wasn't flat out "experience" improvement (like on defense) as I see many people keep saying, Floyd was just sharper and more on point with his game, and made Castillo look more ordinary compared to the first fight. The only real experience accounted for there was knowing Castillo more as a fighter from the first bout.


1. Like you I have watched all of Floyd's fights, even his stuff in the Olympics and he is mostly consistent but I don't believe anyone here is nitpicking except you and why is what I highlighted in bold above. First of all you need not forget that Floyd moved up in weight when challenging those fighters and not everyone who moves up carries their power with them but at the same time it doesn't mean that their power has diminished, it simply means that the heavier fighters are able to absorb a fighter coming from the lighter weights punches better.

Case in point: how many fighters either the same weight, bigger or smaller have actually KO'd Oscar or Mosley?? How many have KO'd Gatti? How many KO'd Baldomir? All of those fighters started out at higher weight classes than Floyd and not many was able to stop them, I could throw Judah and Marquez in there as well even though JMM weighs less (he has a granite chin).

That's why i said you were nitpicking, no offense but to me those examples you gave are no indication of Floyd losing punching power.

2. I think it was better defense from Floyd in the second fight and I agree his offense was sharper, he didn't get nearly as much as the first fight with Castillo. Truthfully though, we may not always agree even if we do like Floyd as a fighter but that is why we have this forum to express our opinions. I just happen to feel that maybe due to the shoulder injury in their first fight that Floyd didn't give his best performance and the total output of punches landed favored JLC which is why I scored it for him but IMO, Floyd left no doubts at all in the 2nd fight though it was fought at the same pace, he just created more space and landed before JLC got close and then he moved/circled away brillantly.
sduck
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Feb 23 2013, 04:58 AM) *
1. Like you I have watched all of Floyd's fights, even his stuff in the Olympics and he is mostly consistent but I don't believe anyone here is nitpicking except you and why is what I highlighted in bold above. First of all you need not forget that Floyd moved up in weight when challenging those fighters and not everyone who moves up carries their power with them but at the same time it doesn't mean that their power has diminished, it simply means that the heavier fighters are able to absorb a fighter coming from the lighter weights punches better.

Case in point: how many fighters either the same weight, bigger or smaller have actually KO'd Oscar or Mosley?? How many have KO'd Gatti? How many KO'd Baldomir? All of those fighters started out at higher weight classes than Floyd and not many was able to stop them, I could throw Judah and Marquez in there as well even though JMM weighs less (he has a granite chin).

That's why i said you were nitpicking, no offense but to me those examples you gave are no indication of Floyd losing punching power.

2. I think it was better defense from Floyd in the second fight and I agree his offense was sharper, he didn't get nearly as much as the first fight with Castillo. Truthfully though, we may not always agree even if we do like Floyd as a fighter but that is why we have this forum to express our opinions. I just happen to feel that maybe due to the shoulder injury in their first fight that Floyd didn't give his best performance and the total output of punches landed favored JLC which is why I scored it for him but IMO, Floyd left no doubts at all in the 2nd fight though it was fought at the same pace, he just created more space and landed before JLC got close and then he moved/circled away brillantly.

??? That's not nitpicking, I said they were only some examples. I'm not judging solely on his opponent's reactions to the punches, but mainly the clear look of force being dished out from his punches. Even when he moved up in weight, his punching power showed inconsistency between fights. It never looked like it truly diminished until 2009 and up, where now he's been totally noted as not being a heavy hitter, when he was noted as being one earlier then from now. (And an example of what I say people nitpicking, is they watch a fight here and there and jump to a conclusion, that's easier said and done for most fighters, but not for a fighter like Floyd... Like how I see many people on here thinking he'd lose to Trout, and before that (lol before many of y'all time when this place was clustered with anti-Floyd vs Floydiot drama), many people were saying he'd get lit up by someone like Vernon Forest. But I question these notions, because the arguments I've seen are people acting like he's never fought someone tall with a good jab before, when he actually has, see Tony Pep for example. Now people could easily say "oh who's Pep? Give me someone credible", but lol these are humans we're talking about, people don't have god damn power levels and shit rofl... Floyd does have experience against tall people with a JAB, and believe me, boy can box his ass off, wow.)

What I meant was that he just didn't become more experience in defense, it was just sharper with his game overall. Castillo tried the same shit he did in the first fight, but this time Floyd was on top of his game and made Castillo look ordinary. Idk if it really was his shoulder throwing him off, he complained about his arm hurting in the corner after the first round, so maybe so... Not saying you're one of them, but the issue I have, I've I said, is how I see so many people mention the first fight without analyzing the second fight, many even acting like the second fight never happened (but you usually see that from haters, trying to add that L there, spewing their hate and w/e).
checkleft
The reason he might have looked feather fisted in the baldomir fight was because he was complete focused on moving not punching but I think the broken hand might have played a factor in it too lol
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