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BrutUalBK
Well as we move to an era in which Boxing (the skill-hit without being hit) is now an unappreciated art form and the era of Brawling/UFCish style action packed fights are accepted as the skill (aka art form, if you will) it beckons the question:

Is the Jab an unappreciated/unscored punch? There was a time when this was the most important punch in a fight, it dictated ring generalship, if not atleast the pace of a fight and judges seemingly used to appreciate it more back in the day.

I saw AT score continuously with his jab (though he did miss often) but still the ones that landed should've been counted as much as the powerpunches landed by Canelo. Now I'm not solely focusing on this fight but rather using it as an example.

It just appears that more emphasis was placed on the powerpunches than the jab which landed with regularity rather than consistently.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated and what other fights you saw where a fighter's jab was landing much more than the other's powerpunches.

DISCUSS!!
mgrover
One of the big issues is that its separated in stats, you have the jab then everything else which should indicate its more important but when commentators refer to these stats its often a side note rather than an important detail not that the stats are ever accurate, but all you hear is huge right/left hook/uppercut. Never anything about the jab. Some of these judges have been around so long I wonder why they fell out of love of the sweet science cause they damn sure were around when it was good. But I guess the draw is more important its disgusting.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (mgrover @ Apr 23 2013, 10:02 AM) *
One of the big issues is that its separated in stats, you have the jab then everything else which should indicate its more important but when commentators refer to these stats its often a side note rather than an important detail not that the stats are ever accurate, but all you hear is huge right/left hook/uppercut. Never anything about the jab. Some of these judges have been around so long I wonder why they fell out of love of the sweet science cause they damn sure were around when it was good. But I guess the draw is more important its disgusting.



You're right, that's all they focus on. In the Canelo vs Trout fight, they highlighted the powerpunching and though Canelo landed significantly far fewer powerpunches than Austin did using his jab he was somehow cristened as the winner. Boxing the art of it is slowly dying, few people seem to appreciate the beauty of it; some recent results is when you read what people say about how Rigo beat Donaire.

Where is the appreciation for the art form of hit without being hit?
mikE11
In most fights, the jab is not the most important punch in reality nor in the eyes of the judges.
daprofessor
it's the video game era we live in. ppl believe u can go into a ring and throw knock out blows. there's very little understanding. i love to show them how easy it is to disrupt shit with an educated jab. doesn't need to be hard. just accurate.
flazi
reminds me of the first forrest mosley fight. forrest jab was beautiful and disrupted everything mosley tried to do. it should always be the most important punch, i love guys who finish their combos with the jab as sort of a push back punch to get out the way instead of pulling back. its the first punch you learn to throw when you box. i won a street fight by just backing up and jabbing lol.
sduck
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 23 2013, 01:27 PM) *
it's the video game era we live in. ppl believe u can go into a ring and throw knock out blows. there's very little understanding. i love to show them how easy it is to disrupt shit with an educated jab. doesn't need to be hard. just accurate.

yeah, it can be frustrating trying to set up those hard shots when you're getting jabbed in the face lol
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (sduck @ Apr 23 2013, 07:29 PM) *
yeah, it can be frustrating trying to set up those hard shots when you're getting jabbed in the face lol



Larry Holmes mastered the art of the jab and controlled the HW division for 7 years with his jab.
DevJ560
The jab is more a setup punch than a scoring punch
checkleft
QUOTE (DevJ560 @ Apr 24 2013, 12:52 PM) *
The jab is more a setup punch than a scoring punch

No. Understatement of the year
Musashi100
you land with your jab you score with your jab.
SCIO
QUOTE (DevJ560 @ Apr 24 2013, 12:52 PM) *
The jab is more a setup punch than a scoring punch


That's exactly opposite of the truth. The jab disrupts your opponents offense, it sets up your trail hand, and if your landing it that's still a PUNCH. You have to score every use of the jab and the skills applied in that use.
SCIO
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ Apr 23 2013, 10:56 AM) *
Well as we move to an era in which Boxing (the skill-hit without being hit) is now an unappreciated art form and the era of Brawling/UFCish style action packed fights are accepted as the skill (aka art form, if you will) it beckons the question:

Is the Jab an unappreciated/unscored punch? There was a time when this was the most important punch in a fight, it dictated ring generalship, if not atleast the pace of a fight and judges seemingly used to appreciate it more back in the day.

I saw AT score continuously with his jab (though he did miss often) but still the ones that landed should've been counted as much as the powerpunches landed by Canelo. Now I'm not solely focusing on this fight but rather using it as an example.

It just appears that more emphasis was placed on the powerpunches than the jab which landed with regularity rather than consistently.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated and what other fights you saw where a fighter's jab was landing much more than the other's powerpunches.

DISCUSS!!


JABucation MUST SEE!: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ1M8KlcUXs&feature=plcp
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Musashi100 @ Apr 24 2013, 01:02 PM) *
you land with your jab you score with your jab.



I agree, I saw you on boxrec. I"m Brut
The Original MrFactor
Great post. It does appear that jabs count for very little. I think it depends on how the guy throws it. Wladimir Klitschko's jab should be counted as a power punch. He sits on his jab the way other guys sit on straight rights. Austin Trout doesnt have a powerful jab like that. His jab is thrown to offset timing and to keep the opponent honest. Its a flicking punch just a little harder than a tap, as opposed to a commited punch.

If I land 16 jabs and you land 3 powerful shots, who gets the round. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe they should have a more definitive way of scoring, since "scoring punch" is very general and vague.

checkleft
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Apr 24 2013, 04:25 PM) *
Great post. It does appear that jabs count for very little. I think it depends on how the guy throws it. Wladimir Klitschko's jab should be counted as a power punch. He sits on his jab the way other guys sit on straight rights. Austin Trout doesnt have a powerful jab like that. His jab is thrown to offset timing and to keep the opponent honest. Its a flicking punch just a little harder than a tap, as opposed to a commited punch.

If I land 16 jabs and you land 3 powerful shots, who gets the round. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe they should have a more definitive way of scoring, since "scoring punch" is very general and vague.

Cottos jab is very good to. He knocked down clottey with it lol. He almost shoots it like a straight right sometimes nanny pacquiao style, I heard he's naturally left handed so that might be it.
mrchitown
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 23 2013, 01:27 PM) *
it's the video game era we live in. ppl believe u can go into a ring and throw knock out blows. there's very little understanding. i love to show them how easy it is to disrupt shit with an educated jab. doesn't need to be hard. just accurate.


Never thought of it like that but I can't disagree with your assessment. Most want to load up on their shots because they think it's fancy, or eye catching. But they and their trainer fail to realize a good jab can help set those shots up

Larry Holmes was a master with the jab, we probably will never see that level of mastery again
mgrover
the jab is something so nice, it just sucks if you have short short arms lol
daprofessor
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Apr 25 2013, 01:35 AM) *
Never thought of it like that but I can't disagree with your assessment. Most want to load up on their shots because they think it's fancy, or eye catching. But they and their trainer fail to realize a good jab can help set those shots up

Larry Holmes was a master with the jab, we probably will never see that level of mastery again



i teach and emphasize the jab. there are several ways to throw them and i encourage my guys to learn and master every single one. u can use it to find range...to blind an opponent...to open a guard...to lull an opponent....to hurt an opponent....to keep him occupied....to take some steam out of an opponent...to bide time....to disrupt an attack....to set up a hook...to set up a cross...to set up an uppercut...etc..etc...

it can be thrown from the high guard....from the hip....from the chest....at half distance...from the chin....

the jab is the beginning and end of most combinations.

"when in doubt, jab out."

the jab keeps your opponent from throwing the right hand if u do it right.

i've dropped ppl with jabs. i've busted noses with jabs. i've won fights with just simple jabs. the more time u spend on your jab...the better u will be as a fighter.

if u understand ur body...u don't have to have the longer reach to have the better jab. it's all about timing and head movement.

the jab is the most important punch in all of boxing imo.
neophyte7
Tommy Hearns... now there was one of the best jabs all time... up there with larry holmes.. George Foreman also had a damned good jab
mrchitown
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 25 2013, 01:57 PM) *
i teach and emphasize the jab. there are several ways to throw them and i encourage my guys to learn and master every single one. u can use it to find range...to blind an opponent...to open a guard...to lull an opponent....to hurt an opponent....to keep him occupied....to take some steam out of an opponent...to bide time....to disrupt an attack....to set up a hook...to set up a cross...to set up an uppercut...etc..etc...

it can be thrown from the high guard....from the hip....from the chest....at half distance...from the chin....

the jab is the beginning and end of most combinations.

"when in doubt, jab out."

the jab keeps your opponent from throwing the right hand if u do it right.

i've dropped ppl with jabs. i've busted noses with jabs. i've won fights with just simple jabs. the more time u spend on your jab...the better u will be as a fighter.

if u understand ur body...u don't have to have the longer reach to have the better jab. it's all about timing and head movement.

the jab is the most important punch in all of boxing imo.


Great post, and all true.

My biggest issue is that some of these so called trainers are not teaching the jab, I remember I had a trainer tell me I jab to much and I should throw more power punches. He acted like I was Malinaggi, I was trying to set up and place my shots on my sparring opponent. Needless to say Is topped taking his advice and tuned him out until he stopped speaking to me all together

Another issue is there are some fighters whchi have beautiful jabs and they under use it
daprofessor
larry holmes without a doubt had a beautiful jab.

miguel cotto
oscar de la hoya
ike quartey
vernon forrest
winky wright
guillermo rigondeaux

are just a few who come to mind when i think of good jabs.
mikE11
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 25 2013, 06:31 PM) *
larry holmes without a doubt had a beautiful jab.

miguel cotto
oscar de la hoya
ike quartey
vernon forrest
winky wright
guillermo rigondeaux

are just a few who come to mind when i think of good jabs.


And yet, of those guys, it's only the most important punch for Ike and Winky. I'll add Holmes, although I really think his right over the jab was his most effective punch, but the jab obviously had a lot to do with that for him.

Getting knockouts and scoring points are most important in a boxing match. The jab doesn't score knockouts and it justifiably doesn't score as effectively as non-jabs that land.
Dolimite
Ruben and Robert Guerrero doesn't think the jab is all that important so maybe the rest of us are dumb and think the jab is important. I look at the jab as having a great running game in football. You control the clock and tire the defense the same is with the jab. Some great offensive fighters had trouble with the jab recently Donaire did not know what to do. Lennox Lewis had a great jab! How do yawl keep shitting on Lewis? Awful!
daprofessor
QUOTE (mikE11 @ Apr 26 2013, 01:26 PM) *
And yet, of those guys, it's only the most important punch for Ike and Winky. I'll add Holmes, although I really think his right over the jab was his most effective punch, but the jab obviously had a lot to do with that for him.

Getting knockouts and scoring points are most important in a boxing match. The jab doesn't score knockouts and it justifiably doesn't score as effectively as non-jabs that land.


miguel cotto has hurt and dropped opponents with his jab. clottey and gomez are the two i can recall.

even brandon rios...who isn't really known as a jabber landed a very stiff jab that wobbled mike alvarado in their last fight.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 26 2013, 01:42 PM) *
Ruben and Robert Guerrero doesn't think the jab is all that important so maybe the rest of us are dumb and think the jab is important. I look at the jab as having a great running game in football. You control the clock and tire the defense the same is with the jab. Some great offensive fighters had trouble with the jab recently Donaire did not know what to do. Lennox Lewis had a great jab! How do yawl keep shitting on Lewis? Awful!


in the southpaw/orthodox match up...i think the jab isn't as important as it is with orthodox vs orthodox. guerreros success is going to come from working the body. he'll have to land or keep floyd occupied with straight shots, not necessarily jabs, up top to get in position to work the body.
flazi
dp, once he gets in to position for that i think it is when may will go to the uppercut to discourage it.
daprofessor
QUOTE (flazi @ Apr 26 2013, 06:35 PM) *
dp, once he gets in to position for that i think it is when may will go to the uppercut to discourage it.


it's the obvious punch. anytime robert leans in he should expect it. if he doesn't anticipate that...then he deserves the ass whoopin he's going to take for making that mistake.
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 26 2013, 12:42 PM) *
Ruben and Robert Guerrero doesn't think the jab is all that important so maybe the rest of us are dumb and think the jab is important. I look at the jab as having a great running game in football. You control the clock and tire the defense the same is with the jab. Some great offensive fighters had trouble with the jab recently Donaire did not know what to do. Lennox Lewis had a great jab! How do yawl keep shitting on Lewis? Awful!



Lennox was a beast and threw the best 1-2 combo ever in the sport on Rahman, he tried it once at 2:35 and then fast forward to 1:46. The sound of this was awesome, sound like the sound effects from a Bruce Lee movie and how they would clap 2 piece of wood together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI8bBYwLGUA

Honorable mention on the jab also goes out to Tony "TNT" Tucker RIP, that dude ruled with his jab alone.<<<<Very underrated indeed!!
mgrover
Paulie has an awesome jab
daprofessor
QUOTE (mgrover @ Apr 26 2013, 07:33 PM) *
Paulie has an awesome jab


if he would ball up his fist everytime he threw it...it would be much more effective. eric brown had him doing that in the beginning...but he seemed to go back to the slappin in his last fight.
checkleft
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Apr 26 2013, 08:16 PM) *
if he would ball up his fist everytime he threw it...it would be much more effective. eric brown had him doing that in the beginning...but he seemed to go back to the slappin in his last fight.

Probably habit, he has terribly fragile hands.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 26 2013, 01:42 PM) *
Ruben and Robert Guerrero doesn't think the jab is all that important so maybe the rest of us are dumb and think the jab is important. I look at the jab as having a great running game in football. You control the clock and tire the defense the same is with the jab. Some great offensive fighters had trouble with the jab recently Donaire did not know what to do. Lennox Lewis had a great jab! How do yawl keep shitting on Lewis? Awful!

I'm a big fan of Lewis' and yes you're right about his jab.
Dolimite
QUOTE (Cheesey1 @ Apr 27 2013, 10:24 AM) *
I'm a big fan of Lewis' and yes you're right about his jab.


Lewis is under appreciated and I have no idea why. Maybe because he is British or he had too much sense to be a boxer. I think when he beat Tyson a lot of people were pissed. I know my boys did not talk to me for a week after that fight. I told that Lewis was going to box Tyson silly. Perhaps people wanted him to stay in the game longer, or maybe it was his locks. The boxing world really does slight Lewis. He was a great fighter inside the ring and a gentleman outside. Oh well.
mrchitown
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 27 2013, 01:28 PM) *
Lewis is under appreciated and I have no idea why. Maybe because he is British or he had too much sense to be a boxer. I think when he beat Tyson a lot of people were pissed. I know my boys did not talk to me for a week after that fight. I told that Lewis was going to box Tyson silly. Perhaps people wanted him to stay in the game longer, or maybe it was his locks. The boxing world really does slight Lewis. He was a great fighter inside the ring and a gentleman outside. Oh well.


Tyson should've been gone from the sport years before that fight. I give him credit for winning but it wasn't like he toppled the giant like some people make it out to be. Your friends should've called you captain obvious....if they would've fought in their primes who knows what would've occurred but Tyson did spar Lennox in the 80's and I'd be curious to get the real story and what happened there

Emmanuel Steward, may he rest in paradise, did an interview last summer I believe on Tyson's impact and on Lennox and he said how Tyson always had a problem with taller rangier fighters. I agree with that...Lennox isn't beloved because his personality is dry. I like him but the causal's never took to him. His jab and the way he boxed was beautiful to me. The only thing I would've liked for him to do is give Klitschko that rematch
Dolimite
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Apr 27 2013, 11:36 AM) *
Tyson should've been gone from the sport years before that fight. I give him credit for winning but it wasn't like he toppled the giant like some people make it out to be. Your friends should've called you captain obvious....if they would've fought in their primes who knows what would've occurred but Tyson did spar Lennox in the 80's and I'd be curious to get the real story and what happened there

Emmanuel Steward, may he rest in paradise, did an interview last summer I believe on Tyson's impact and on Lennox and he said how Tyson always had a problem with taller rangier fighters. I agree with that...Lennox isn't beloved because his personality is dry. I like him but the causal's never took to him. His jab and the way he boxed was beautiful to me. The only thing I would've liked for him to do is give Klitschko that rematch

Lewis was on the way out plus would he did Klitschko's eye I saw no point. I was not called Captain Obvious because my boys are very casual boxing fans. That they thought the greatest fight was when Pacquiao and Cotto fight. Fuck the intangibles to it. They also think that somehow Broner would smoke anyone between 140-154. I nearly spit my La Di Fin Moud out. I watched Lennox for a very long time and I knew that he would beat Tyson in any point in their career. His jab, defense, and ring IQ was better than Mike's. Mike never had a plan B. That is my opinion.
checkleft
.
checkleft
Lennox is very under appreciated.

Back to the jabs, my favorite has to be the the jab to the body (if you have a nice quick stiff one) and the upjab is probably my favorite to use. If you you time it right you could do real damage and its a really good way to shake up your guy.
Hotsauce
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 27 2013, 01:28 PM) *
Lewis is under appreciated and I have no idea why. Maybe because he is British or he had too much sense to be a boxer. I think when he beat Tyson a lot of people were pissed. I know my boys did not talk to me for a week after that fight. I told that Lewis was going to box Tyson silly. Perhaps people wanted him to stay in the game longer, or maybe it was his locks. The boxing world really does slight Lewis. He was a great fighter inside the ring and a gentleman outside. Oh well.


Not surprised tyson had a big fanbase. I remember when my uncle told me one day he was in the barbershop and he said holyfield was going to beat tyson. It got so hectic he had to leave.
mrchitown
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 27 2013, 03:37 PM) *
Lewis was on the way out plus would he did Klitschko's eye I saw no point. I was not called Captain Obvious because my boys are very casual boxing fans. That they thought the greatest fight was when Pacquiao and Cotto fight. Fuck the intangibles to it. They also think that somehow Broner would smoke anyone between 140-154. I nearly spit my La Di Fin Moud out. I watched Lennox for a very long time and I knew that he would beat Tyson in any point in their career. His jab, defense, and ring IQ was better than Mike's. Mike never had a plan B. That is my opinion.


I disagree that he'd beat Tyson in any point. There are some things that I saw in lLnnox that would've got his ass smoked had they fought in the 90's, now Lennox with Emmanuel in his corner would've been hard for Mike to beat but without Steward I don't think he pulls it off. Mike was on his way out too. I'll say this Tyson with Rooney as his trainer and Lennox with Emmanuel would've been great to see. No way you can say Tyson gets steamrolled with the corner he had. People talk shit about Mike but he only fell off when he left Rooney

Lennox's jab was his best weapon. He had a good career and it is totally baffling why some don't like him. Maybe it is the Tyson fight but that's stupid to not like him because of that. i genuinely believe he's not liked because he has no personality. He's not entertaining. He's more entertaining in retirement then he was as a pro

Broner aint smoking shit but crack at 154 lmao
sduck
Probably because Lennox Lewis went out like a sucker, beat up a shot version of the beloved Tyson, then got a undeserved stoppage win against Vitali Klitschko and gave no rematch. Plus he's British and doesn't have a very appealing personality to the fight crowd. He tried commentary too, but he wasn't very good at that either.
Cheesey1
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 27 2013, 02:28 PM) *
Lewis is under appreciated and I have no idea why. Maybe because he is British or he had too much sense to be a boxer. I think when he beat Tyson a lot of people were pissed. I know my boys did not talk to me for a week after that fight. I told that Lewis was going to box Tyson silly. Perhaps people wanted him to stay in the game longer, or maybe it was his locks. The boxing world really does slight Lewis. He was a great fighter inside the ring and a gentleman outside. Oh well.

Here's what I consider to be the best article ever on Lennox Lewis' career. Lennox Lewis - Olympian to professional.
(you can ignore the minor detail that I wrote it... and also feel free to skip over the stock intro. the article really starts from the third paragraph i.e. "Part seven of...")
mrchitown
QUOTE (sduck @ Apr 28 2013, 02:28 AM) *
Probably because Lennox Lewis went out like a sucker, beat up a shot version of the beloved Tyson, then got a undeserved stoppage win against Vitali Klitschko and gave no rematch. Plus he's British and doesn't have a very appealing personality to the fight crowd. He tried commentary too, but he wasn't very good at that either.


My thoughts exactly brother laugh.gif
Dolimite
QUOTE (mrchitown @ Apr 28 2013, 03:55 PM) *
My thoughts exactly brother laugh.gif

thumbsdown_anim.gif
daprofessor
QUOTE (sduck @ Apr 28 2013, 03:28 AM) *
Probably because Lennox Lewis went out like a sucker, beat up a shot version of the beloved Tyson, then got a undeserved stoppage win against Vitali Klitschko and gave no rematch. Plus he's British and doesn't have a very appealing personality to the fight crowd. He tried commentary too, but he wasn't very good at that either.


he also ducked byrd and ruiz.
checkleft
QUOTE (sduck @ Apr 28 2013, 03:28 AM) *
Probably because Lennox Lewis went out like a sucker, beat up a shot version of the beloved Tyson, then got a undeserved stoppage win against Vitali Klitschko and gave no rematch. Plus he's British and doesn't have a very appealing personality to the fight crowd. He tried commentary too, but he wasn't very good at that either.

Damn you went in him
mrchitown
QUOTE (Dolimite @ Apr 28 2013, 07:08 PM) *
thumbsdown_anim.gif


You and Lennox can take this fuck.gif lol
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