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Gambit808
Not saying he has to, or that he needs much more to prove in order to justictify his place as the greatest of this era. But can you imagine how much more money, how much more power, how much more respect he'd acquire had he finish off Cotto, Guerrero, Mosley, Marquez, De La Hoya when he had them all hurt. I doubt the whole Mayweather-Pacquiao dream fight would be much of a 9th wonder of the boxing general world. IMO along with his skill-set that we know him by today, there wouldn't be room for any dispute when ever you brought his name up because he'd be the complete package. Again, don't get me wrong, Mayweather has it all... Or almost. That one thing he lacks ever since jumping to WW and which I believe is a reason he even started fighting guys toe 2 toe, is for a better win KO%, which if he was able to produce against those for 5 names, would bring him much more fortune and fame. #wishfulthinking

Agree/Disagree with this post?

Also, if Mayweather was a power puncher along with the skill-set he already has, would that put him above most, if not all past greats?
Cshel86
I think the way he's been finishing fights is fine, seriously. Can you imagine how much ridicule he'd receive if he knocked all of those guys out? If he had knocked any of these guys, I think he would've received the most credit for stopping Mosley, since we've yet to see that happen.

Other than that, he'd really appear to be the "cherry picker" that most perceive him to be. I'm glad that he doesn't have much power, so now he doesn't have to worry about it leaving him when he gets older. Imagine how good of a boxer Mosley would've been, had he had less power.

To me, the less power, the more concentration on other areas of your fighting style. Usually, guys with power will rely on it, and get frustrated if they cant land. Ultimately, they're stuck looking goofy while the guy with less power (or the guy who was able to withstand their power), outworks them.
mgrover
Meh I don't think he needs it. I mean he pushes but just can't manage it, his hands and wrists just don't seem up to it. Look at Gatti before he fell in love with his own power, pretty decent boxer.
Dolimite
KO's don't make your legacy that much greater, I am sorry. Mayweather literally makes his opponents look like shit. Plus the knock out is not always there in every fight. Plus looking for the knock out can hurt your plan or strategy. This is why we bitch about Donaire and Alvarez. They are always looking for that big shot and sometimes it isn't there. Again KO's are nice but that is not why I watch boxing. I like it when a boxer can humiliate his opponent with their fighting style, which is why mayweather is my favorite fighter. he doesn't need a KO, please stop listening to Skip " i don't know shit about shit" bayless.
Gambit808
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 22 2013, 01:09 PM) *
I think the way he's been finishing fights is fine, seriously. Can you imagine how much ridicule he'd receive if he knocked all of those guys out? If he had knocked any of these guys, I think he would've received the most credit for stopping Mosley, since we've yet to see that happen.

Other than that, he'd really appear to be the "cherry picker" that most perceive him to be. I'm glad that he doesn't have much power, so now he doesn't have to worry about it leaving him when he gets older. Imagine how good of a boxer Mosley would've been, had he had less power.

To me, the less power, the more concentration on other areas of your fighting style. Usually, guys with power will rely on it, and get frustrated if they cant land. Ultimately, they're stuck looking goofy while the guy with less power (or the guy who was able to withstand their power), outworks them.

Good Point C, though I think he would've gotten some form of credit with Oscar being that, that was Floyd's first trip to that weight, but all n all, can't argue this.
neophyte7
Stopping shane would have been big for Mayweather because Shane has never been stopped. Mayweather definitely was on the verge and Nazim even hinted of stopping it I recall. Mayweather could have and should have stopped him
mrchitown
I think the late Manny Steward summed it up perfectly, he can get the KO but he's more content with getting the rounds in the bank and getting the decision. If he would've kept at Cotto he would've been outta there in the 12th, Mosley was getting tattooed after that 2nd round and Floyd just starting picking his spots and banking the rounds.
duwdu
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 22 2013, 01:09 PM) *
I think the way he's been finishing fights is fine, seriously. Can you imagine how much ridicule he'd receive if he knocked all of those guys out? If he had knocked any of these guys, I think he would've received the most credit for stopping Mosley, since we've yet to see that happen.

Other than that, he'd really appear to be the "cherry picker" that most perceive him to be. I'm glad that he doesn't have much power, so now he doesn't have to worry about it leaving him when he gets older. Imagine how good of a boxer Mosley would've been, had he had less power.

To me, the less power, the more concentration on other areas of your fighting style. Usually, guys with power will rely on it, and get frustrated if they cant land. Ultimately, they're stuck looking goofy while the guy with less power (or the guy who was able to withstand their power), outworks them.


I totally reason and agree with this ^^^.

Also, far from because he doesn't have many ko's to his credit, Mayweather is not ascribed by some the level of greatness he deserves, more because of his reputation and perceived personality outside of the squared ring. Boxing experts and scholars have emotions too.

P34c3
duwdu
QUOTE (Dolimite @ May 22 2013, 01:20 PM) *
KO's don't make your legacy that much greater, I am sorry. Mayweather literally makes his opponents look like shit. Plus the knock out is not always there in every fight. Plus looking for the knock out can hurt your plan or strategy. This is why we bitch about Donaire and Alvarez. They are always looking for that big shot and sometimes it isn't there. Again KO's are nice but that is not why I watch boxing. I like it when a boxer can humiliate his opponent with their fighting style, which is why mayweather is my favorite fighter. he doesn't need a KO, please stop listening to Skip " i don't know shit about shit" bayless.


This tallies totally with my own main reason too for watching boxing. To me, some of the best fights I've seen involved Mayweather, in his fights against Gatti, Coralles, Genaro Hernandez, and more recently, Mosley.

P34c3
BoxingEinstein

If Floyds power from his lighter weight days would have stayed with him and if he didn't have brittle hands, he would probably be the most ducked fighter since Tyson in his early prime. Mayweather already is a nearly complete fighter that can do it all but adding more power to his already respectible power now would be making him 'OP' as some people would put it.

I think Matthysse's one of those guys that doesn't soley focus on his power like most power punchers. He has a very under scored boxing ability and has decent defensive techniques, like parrying shots, ducking over to opponents vulnerable foot positions, and feints. Its just that he has real KO power in both hands that overshadows it.

mgrover said it, he doesn't need it which shows you how great he is with his skills.
Cshel86
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ May 22 2013, 01:29 PM) *
Good Point C, though I think he would've gotten some form of credit with Oscar being that, that was Floyd's first trip to that weight, but all n all, can't argue this.

Shit, I totally forgot the Oscar fight. A knockout would've done miracles for him, but then again, it would've totally wiped out all of this talk about him no truly being a Jr. MW and so on. His list of ducked opponents would've surely increased after that. I remember him talking about the Oscar fight being a massacre and so on...the world still awaits. laugh.gif

QUOTE (duwdu @ May 22 2013, 04:44 PM) *
I totally reason and agree with this ^^^.

Also, far from because he doesn't have many ko's to his credit, Mayweather is not ascribed by some the level of greatness he deserves, more because of his reputation and perceived personality outside of the squared ring. Boxing experts and scholars have emotions too.

P34c3

I concur. I was hoping that you would disagree with me a bit, so we could make this a bigger discussion. laugh.gif You've disagreed with me before and it made for a cool discussion, especially since you know your stuff!
duwdu
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 22 2013, 05:02 PM) *
Shit, I totally forgot the Oscar fight. A knockout would've done miracles for him, but then again, it would've totally wiped out all of this talk about him no truly being a Jr. MW and so on. His list of ducked opponents would've surely increased after that. I remember him talking about the Oscar fight being a massacre and so on...the world still awaits. laugh.gif


I concur. I was hoping that you would disagree with me a bit, so we could make this a bigger discussion. laugh.gif You've disagreed with me before and it made for a cool discussion, especially since you know your stuff!


I appreciate your kind words, Cshel. The fact is that you don't shy away from making your points, and a vast majority of them I consider sound, as with other posters on here, and so I don't comment on those if I don't think I can add value.

Plus, wait for this - you do present a lot of entertainment, such as when you were putting it on Allmenjoi8! LOL.

Will she ever come back? Or did I miss a comeback? I wonder. :-)

P34c3
mgrover
On the other hand KOing someone whose never been stopped before by big punchers is a statement, eg Matthysee vs Peterson. So maybe if Floyd stopped Mosley, and Guererro and Marquez, he'd be the guy to stop them. Because when Hatton was stopped by him, and then destroyed by Pac, Pac is never given any credit because Floyd beat him to the punch...
Franchize
I personally think he took his foot off the gas on purpose in the Marquez fight. I think he wanted to get some rounds in and I think he also has a lot of respect for Marquez. I always hear him talk about Marquez with a lot of respect. I think with Shane, he was trying to embarrass him after that 2nd round mishap. I think, if any fight I felt disappointed there was no knock out, it would be that. He was lightin Shane up with some shots in the latter rounds. Shane has a sturdy beard though.
Marcus
QUOTE (Cshel86 @ May 22 2013, 01:09 PM) *
I think the way he's been finishing fights is fine, seriously. Can you imagine how much ridicule he'd receive if he knocked all of those guys out? If he had knocked any of these guys, I think he would've received the most credit for stopping Mosley, since we've yet to see that happen.

Other than that, he'd really appear to be the "cherry picker" that most perceive him to be. I'm glad that he doesn't have much power, so now he doesn't have to worry about it leaving him when he gets older. Imagine how good of a boxer Mosley would've been, had he had less power.

To me, the less power, the more concentration on other areas of your fighting style. Usually, guys with power will rely on it, and get frustrated if they cant land. Ultimately, they're stuck looking goofy while the guy with less power (or the guy who was able to withstand their power), outworks them.


Donaire Rigondeaux is a prime example.
Canelo Trout (although canelo barely won, trout out worked him)
Whitaker Chavez
Martinez Chavez Jr.
Dirrel Abraham
Ward Abraham

And GGG, Thurman, and Quilin will get outboxed too if they keep relying on power.

Even the Pacquiao Marquez series. Pacquiao definitely has more power than Marquez but marquez's skill ultimately made those decisions w/ the knockdowns. In part IV power didn't KO Pacquiao. Pinpoint accuracy. Youre not accurate if youre not a skillful boxer.
Marcus
QUOTE (mrchitown @ May 22 2013, 03:08 PM) *
I think the late Manny Steward summed it up perfectly, he can get the KO but he's more content with getting the rounds in the bank and getting the decision. If he would've kept at Cotto he would've been outta there in the 12th, Mosley was getting tattooed after that 2nd round and Floyd just starting picking his spots and banking the rounds.


Another good point. And heres another point. Mabe Mayweather trult takes pleasure in boxing. I mean he's the hardest working boxer in show biz. Everyone knows that. He works hard for 12 rounds. A KO here and there is fun but why shouldnt he do what he loves. I think Floyd takes pleasure in outboxing. You train for 12 rounds. Why not showoff in all 12 of them?
mrchitown
QUOTE (Marcus @ May 23 2013, 08:04 PM) *
Another good point. And heres another point. Mabe Mayweather trult takes pleasure in boxing. I mean he's the hardest working boxer in show biz. Everyone knows that. He works hard for 12 rounds. A KO here and there is fun but why shouldnt he do what he loves. I think Floyd takes pleasure in outboxing. You train for 12 rounds. Why not showoff in all 12 of them?


I had to sit back and just let what Steward said sink in, I think Floyd is more concerned with putting rounds in the bank and adding that next W. Most times he's up by so many points, why risk going for the KO and possibly getting laid out yourself. He's intelligent and Steward just further shined light on that. I do believe it's some fights he could've finished his opponent but going for that KO would have forced him to take a risk and he only takes calculated risks. The Guerrero fight is a prime example, he was circling the wrong way and tattoing Robert and Robert couldn't do shit about it. The man is a genius inside the ring
neophyte7
It all boils down to Floyd being a fighter that is exciting to watch for a full three minutes of every round... even those who hate him cannot say they don't focus on mayweather for the entire three minutes of a round-- glued in to see if someone is able to penetrate his aura of invincibility. He simply is the best in the world. He exhibits the pugilistic science in every dimension as a boxer, slugger, flat footed, on his toes, fighting going forward or backwards, inside work, body punching... DEFENSIVELY POSSIBLY THE GREATEST--All styles have had a crack at beating LIL FLOYD as father used to call him.... this kid who Emanuel Steward said was fighting on the Detroit scene on teams as a kid at 106 pounds is the most complete fighter of all times comparable to Sugar Ray Robinson... he has less power than Ray Rob most definitely but Floyd is in that mold of greatness for sure... and there are only a handful of fighters of old in that mold.
mrchitown
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ May 24 2013, 10:00 AM) *
It all boils down to Floyd being a fighter that is exciting to watch for a full three minutes of every round... even those who hate him cannot say they don't focus on mayweather for the entire three minutes of a round-- glued in to see if someone is able to penetrate his aura of invincibility. He simply is the best in the world. He exhibits the pugilistic science in every dimension as a boxer, slugger, flat footed, on his toes, fighting going forward or backwards, inside work, body punching... DEFENSIVELY POSSIBLY THE GREATEST--All styles have had a crack at beating LIL FLOYD as father used to call him.... this kid who Emanuel Steward said was fighting on the Detroit scene on teams as a kid at 106 pounds is the most complete fighter of all times comparable to Sugar Ray Robinson... he has less power than Ray Rob most definitely but Floyd is in that mold of greatness for sure... and there are only a handful of fighters of old in that mold.


Just said this in another thread, he's definitely in that upper echelon, I can't front and say I'd put him over SRR though but just to be in an elite class like that speaks volumes for Floyd's legacy and his skills in the ring
sduck
Mayweather stopped being a KO artist way long ago, it's not going to happen unless we get another Victor Ortiz.
Franchize
I think it also comes down to the fact that I can't remember the last time Floyd fought someone he was angry with. I expected him to be upset with Guerrero, but after a while, Guerrero's trash talking seemed to become trivial. When Floyd fought De La Hoya, Mosley and Gatti...he really seemed to hate those motherfuckers lol I think if he fought Pacquiao...he'd probably get a point taken away lol.

Personally, part of me likes the lack of KO's. Floyd's PPV's are getting more and more pricey. Motherfucker, gimme my 12 rounds worth lol Knock a guy down. Let him hang in there until the 9th though lol
neophyte7
QUOTE (Franchize @ May 26 2013, 10:14 PM) *
Personally, part of me likes the lack of KO's. Floyd's PPV's are getting more and more pricey. Motherfucker, gimme my 12 rounds worth lol Knock a guy down. Let him hang in there until the 9th though lol



You make damned good sense with that one... thumbsup_anim.gif
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ May 22 2013, 11:58 AM) *
Not saying he has to, or that he needs much more to prove in order to justictify his place as the greatest of this era. But can you imagine how much more money, how much more power, how much more respect he'd acquire had he finish off Cotto, Guerrero, Mosley, Marquez, De La Hoya when he had them all hurt. I doubt the whole Mayweather-Pacquiao dream fight would be much of a 9th wonder of the boxing general world. IMO along with his skill-set that we know him by today, there wouldn't be room for any dispute when ever you brought his name up because he'd be the complete package. Again, don't get me wrong, Mayweather has it all... Or almost. That one thing he lacks ever since jumping to WW and which I believe is a reason he even started fighting guys toe 2 toe, is for a better win KO%, which if he was able to produce against those for 5 names, would bring him much more fortune and fame. #wishfulthinking

Agree/Disagree with this post?

Also, if Mayweather was a power puncher along with the skill-set he already has, would that put him above most, if not all past greats?



Floyd is a very underrated puncher, Shane said that himself and many others as well too. I don't know where the notion that crept up saying he doesn't but one would be foolish to believe that he wouldn't finish you off if he got you reeling. Floyd still has power, the only thing I see is that he tends to play it a little bit safe when he should be off-loading combos-he chooses to potshot instead.

Often times I've seen fights of his where he has a fighter seriously hurt from one punch but doesn't come back immediately with a follow-up hook(s) or other punches that could bring the KOs we tend to want from him. People overlook the fact that Ortiz was 17lbs heavier than Floyd on the night that they fought and call it "suckerpunch" or whatever you want he knocked out the bigger man with basically one shot.

Before the Josesito comparisons go on concerning the VO fight, let's just get it one thing straight Ortiz jaw got broke because he had his mouth wide open in that fight, it wasn't all that with punching power because anyone can damn near break a person's jaw if the persons mouth is wide open.

If Sr would tell Jr to just let his hands go, then we'd see the KOs we want from him.
daprofessor
QUOTE (BrutUalBK @ May 28 2013, 01:56 PM) *
Floyd is a very underrated puncher, Shane said that himself and many others as well too. I don't know where the notion that crept up saying he doesn't but one would be foolish to believe that he wouldn't finish you off if he got you reeling. Floyd still has power, the only thing I see is that he tends to play it a little bit safe when he should be off-loading combos-he chooses to potshot instead.

Often times I've seen fights of his where he has a fighter seriously hurt from one punch but doesn't come back immediately with a follow-up hook(s) or other punches that could bring the KOs we tend to want from him. People overlook the fact that Ortiz was 17lbs heavier than Floyd on the night that they fought and call it "suckerpunch" or whatever you want he knocked out the bigger man with basically one shot.

Before the Josesito comparisons go on concerning the VO fight, let's just get it one thing straight Ortiz jaw got broke because he had his mouth wide open in that fight, it wasn't all that with punching power because anyone can damn near break a person's jaw if the persons mouth is wide open.

If Sr would tell Jr to just let his hands go, then we'd see the KOs we want from him.


it was 2 shots from floyd....and under different circumstances...i'm not convinced floyd would have stopped victor. he was hitting him flush with right hands and ortiz just walked through them. at the point where floyd dropped him....ortiz, because of his own stupidity, was caught off guard. those shot were totally unexpected which is why they did the damage they did.

i agree about ortiz getting his jaw broke by josesito. i called that and even posted a pic about it before the fight. i don't know when or where it started with all these guys wanting to yell with their mouths wide open as they punch. that is a no-no. u should be doing the exact opposite.


mrchitown
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 28 2013, 02:04 PM) *
it was 2 shots from floyd....and under different circumstances...i'm not convinced floyd would have stopped victor. he was hitting him flush with right hands and ortiz just walked through them. at the point where floyd dropped him....ortiz, because of his own stupidity, was caught off guard. those shot were totally unexpected which is why they did the damage they did.

i agree about ortiz getting his jaw broke by josesito. i called that and even posted a pic about it before the fight. i don't know when or where it started with all these guys wanting to yell with their mouths wide open as they punch. that is a no-no. u should be doing the exact opposite.


I am and I was, I was at that fight and Victor was getting frustrated, it was obvious as the fight progressed that he was in over his head, that fight wouldn't of went past the 7th rd with his eye like that and Floyd opened up in the 4th with combos, it was just a matter of time
BrutUalBK
QUOTE (daprofessor @ May 28 2013, 02:04 PM) *
it was 2 shots from floyd....and under different circumstances...i'm not convinced floyd would have stopped victor. he was hitting him flush with right hands and ortiz just walked through them. at the point where floyd dropped him....ortiz, because of his own stupidity, was caught off guard. those shot were totally unexpected which is why they did the damage they did.

i agree about ortiz getting his jaw broke by josesito. i called that and even posted a pic about it before the fight. i don't know when or where it started with all these guys wanting to yell with their mouths wide open as they punch. that is a no-no. u should be doing the exact opposite.



That I knew but the left hook didn't seem to bother VO all that much but that straight right rag-dolled him. Still with or without the prior damage I believe Vic still would've visited the canvas and Money's punching power is highly underrated which is why you don't see fighters willing to take one of his shots to get in their own.
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