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Gambit808
To me it seems like a trainer has his work cut out for him when having a stable of fighters who are champions with a name for themselves, ala Garcia, Hunter, or Roach. Though it is saying a lot about the quality of training success they bring, it seems like the guys who give most of there time, if not, all of there time to a main pupil, has more advantages towards success with a fighter, than the guy who has 4-5 champions in there stable to focus on. I hear Andre Berto maybe on tap to work with Vrigil Hunter now and it got me thinking, is it in a fighters best interest to go with a guy whom already has a stable full of well known fighters?
daprofessor
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 18 2013, 04:53 PM) *
To me it seems like a trainer has his work cut out for him when having a stable of fighters who are champions with a name for themselves, ala Garcia, Hunter, or Roach. Though it is saying a lot about the quality of training success they bring, it seems like the guys who give most of there time, if not, all of there time to a main pupil, has more advantages towards success with a fighter, than the guy who has 4-5 champions in there stable to focus on. I hear Andre Berto maybe on tap to work with Vrigil Hunter now and it got me thinking, is it in a fighters best interest to go with a guy whom already has a stable full of well known fighters?


it's a difficult task to handle. i watched great fighters not get the attention they deserved or needed at the wildcard because freddie roach had more talent than he could handle.

i think it depends on the trainer and his system. but generally speaking....it's like children...on parent per child. anything more than that and the kids get short changed.
Gambit808
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 05:08 PM) *
it's a difficult task to handle. i watched great fighters not get the attention they deserved or needed at the wildcard because freddie roach had more talent than he could handle.

i think it depends on the trainer and his system. but generally speaking....it's like children...on parent per child. anything more than that and the kids get short changed.

So why is it some fighters still go to trainers who seem like they already have there hands full with talent? Shouldn't they look for a guy good enough and willing to give them time and there undivided attention?
daprofessor
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 18 2013, 05:18 PM) *
So why is it some fighters still go to trainers who seem like they already have there hands full with talent? Shouldn't they look for a guy good enough and willing to give them time and there undivided attention?


because they don't have that understanding. they don't totally get the dynamics between trainer/fighter or teacher/student. as a result...many very good fighters have ruined their careers. yes...they should look for that guy that can give them what they need...but that in itself is very difficult to do. i think the key is to look at what a trainer is producing. if he is consistently churning out talent that has the attributes a fighter wants/needs...then they should pursue that trainer. the thing about it though is that just because some fighters had chemistry/winning formula with some trainers doesn't mean that the next guy will. case in point....nacho beristain. how many great fighters did he develop? how many went to him looking to get the same and ended up looking worse? these things take time. it's rare when it happens over night.
flazi
damn, great post prof.
mgrover
Yeah why not, I don't see a big issue if they've taken them by hand from day one, but a lot of these fighters change trainers like a baby changes underwear. Dawson is a pretty obvious example of this.
checkleft
Only if the trainer can manage his time extremely well, cause of they don't the guys without the star power that he doesn't give enough time to are just wasting their money.

I'd rather have a fully committed average trainer than a really good trainer who only gives you half his time or less. It has to be concerning for a fighter and it probably plays a role in their confidence.
daprofessor
QUOTE (flazi @ Jun 18 2013, 06:42 PM) *
damn, great post prof.


thanks.
Gambit808
QUOTE (checkleft @ Jun 18 2013, 07:34 PM) *
Only if the trainer can manage his time extremely well, cause of they don't the guys without the star power that he doesn't give enough time to are just wasting their money.

I'd rather have a fully committed average trainer than a really good trainer who only gives you half his time or less. It has to be concerning for a fighter and it probably plays a role in their confidence.

I hear ya, but It's gotta be tough worrying about multiple quality fighters especially if say his fighters fight dates are close together or sometime on the same card, right? Examples like Freddie Roach when he had Khan complaining about the amount of time he was being attended to as compared to the more popular Pacman, or Cotto when he was with Steward.
Gambit808
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 05:38 PM) *
because they don't have that understanding. they don't totally get the dynamics between trainer/fighter or teacher/student. as a result...many very good fighters have ruined their careers. yes...they should look for that guy that can give them what they need...but that in itself is very difficult to do. i think the key is to look at what a trainer is producing. if he is consistently churning out talent that has the attributes a fighter wants/needs...then they should pursue that trainer. the thing about it though is that just because some fighters had chemistry/winning formula with some trainers doesn't mean that the next guy will. case in point....nacho beristain. how many great fighters did he develop? how many went to him looking to get the same and ended up looking worse? these things take time. it's rare when it happens over night.

I read ya, good post.
daprofessor
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 18 2013, 08:34 PM) *
I hear ya, but It's gotta be tough worrying about multiple quality fighters especially if say his fighters fight dates are close together or sometime on the same card, right? Examples like Freddie Roach when he had Khan complaining about the amount of time he was being attended to as compared to the more popular Pacman, or Cotto when he was with Steward.


i saw problems with that schedule. freddie had jorge linares, amir khan and pacquiao all fighting close to each other. in addition to that he was assisting the u.s. olympic team in colorado springs. he bounced from l.a. to colorado to the philippines back to l.a. with both linares and khan in tow. his main priority was pac of course and that was for the pac/jmm3 fight i believe. linares had his fight lined up with demarco and was sparring pac to get ready for that. that sparring suited pac more than linares because pac looked nothing like demarco for linares. we all know what happened in those two fights...and if my memory serves me correctly, khan was looking at the peterson match which he loss. he ran into the same problem when he signed for the rematch that fell through. he then signed to fight danny garcia after completing an 8 week camp for a fight that fell through. he went back to the uk and made his way back to the l.a. but freddy had obligations with nbc and some other fights i can't recall...but i do remember seeing video of khan working with some s&c i never heard of and some filipino. neither seemed to know what was going on because khan looked like shit in the sparring footage i saw. i thought the writing was on the wall then.

i've seen it happen to emmanuel steward more than once as well. anyone remember vivian harris? how about prince nazim hamed? it's a tough thing to pull off...especially when there are other obligations. it's no knock against either guy...they're only human.
The Original MrFactor
I dont know if its wise. If you are a good trainer, isn't it inevitable? Then its up to the fighters to pay for your services. Everyone doesnt pay the same. For premium care, you pay a premium price.
mrchitown
QUOTE (mgrover @ Jun 18 2013, 06:19 PM) *
Yeah why not, I don't see a big issue if they've taken them by hand from day one, but a lot of these fighters change trainers like a baby changes underwear. Dawson is a pretty obvious example of this.


Wouldn't be surprised if he did it again after that crushing defeat he had a few weeks ago
mrchitown
To me it all depends on the trainers. If they can manage the time well and put in the quality work with the fighters, in addition to managing all those athlete egos then I say go for it.

It's bound to happen any way, if your a good trainer, eventually other fighters will seek out your services. I don't like the way Garcia has his fighters at times, fighting on the same card, I think his schedule and ways of maneuvering really caught up with him in the Donaire-Rigondauex fight. he's a decent trainer but if I was a manger I wouldn't send my fighter to train under him because he doesn't seem to manage time well
scdrking2
I think it can be done. A trainer needs a competent staff big enough to handle their stable who are well versed in the style and demands of the head trainer. Everyone also has to be on board in regard to where training takes place. I think Roach brought on a lot of his issues by spending so much time in the P.I. with Manny when he had other guys who needed attention. To the point that on a few 24 episodes prior to multiple fights, getting Manny to go to LA was like pulling teeth.
BigDDatHomey
QUOTE (Gambit808 @ Jun 18 2013, 03:53 PM) *
To me it seems like a trainer has his work cut out for him when having a stable of fighters who are champions with a name for themselves, ala Garcia, Hunter, or Roach. Though it is saying a lot about the quality of training success they bring, it seems like the guys who give most of there time, if not, all of there time to a main pupil, has more advantages towards success with a fighter, than the guy who has 4-5 champions in there stable to focus on. I hear Andre Berto maybe on tap to work with Vrigil Hunter now and it got me thinking, is it in a fighters best interest to go with a guy whom already has a stable full of well known fighters?


From a trainers perspective that is why they're there, to raise champions. At the end of the day they chose the profession to be great and to be great you need multiple champions in ur stable. I am sure it get hectic but that's the point and it comes with the territory and success is the name of game. A guy who gives most of.their time to one athlete is likely to have a lighter paycheck. I'd want as many champions in my stable as possible. Seems like a no brainer to me. At the point you cant handle anymore then you just say u can't handle no more. If you inheret a champion then someone else.has to take a.back seat....its business and paychecks..
bnoles4life
QUOTE (daprofessor @ Jun 18 2013, 09:32 PM) *
i've seen it happen to emmanuel steward more than once as well. anyone remember vivian harris? how about prince nazim hamed? it's a tough thing to pull off...especially when there are other obligations. it's no knock against either guy...they're only human.


In fairness to Manny, no one could've gotten through to Vivian..especially that Maussa fight. Manny kept tellin' him, "quit trying to knock that guy out, he's not going anywhere. Just box him." What would Viv do? You guessed it; run his ass out there throwin' haymakers......got gassed and ended up getting stopped. Overall, I agree w/ you. Too much of a good thing, is usually anything BUT.
daprofessor
QUOTE (bnoles4life @ Jun 19 2013, 08:40 PM) *
In fairness to Manny, no one could've gotten through to Vivian..especially that Maussa fight. Manny kept tellin' him, "quit trying to knock that guy out, he's not going anywhere. Just box him." What would Viv do? You guessed it; run his ass out there throwin' haymakers......got gassed and ended up getting stopped. Overall, I agree w/ you. Too much of a good thing, is usually anything BUT.


vivian was out here training without manny. he showed up for the fight...so of course there would be a disconnect. u just can't show up the day of and expect to get response/result.
Cshel86
As most of you all mentioned, a trainer could have multiple fighters, IF he's able to manage his time well.

I believe me and Professor were discussing Amir Khan's troubles with Roach last year, just days before the Garcia fight. I have to find that video of him sparring against a guy who fought nothing like Garcia, and he was going for broke and getting tagged in the process.

As Professor mentioned a while ago, places like the Wild Card gym are full of guys who are pressing to be stars, so sparring sessions end up turning into competitions so to speak, rather than one guy helping another guy prepare for an upcoming fight.

There's always something to prove in places like that, and if you're somewhat insecure about your skills and really need help (but too afraid to look "less than" in front of hungry, surrounding prospects), then you're sure to fall short somewhere.

So again, a trainer having more than one fighter to train, CAN be a good thing, but it can also backfire and the fighters end up paying for it. I dont know what's worse, a trainer not being able to give a green and hungry fighter (who needs all the help they can get) enough time, or not being able to give multiple stars/champions enough time because one of them is the golden goose while the others are left to play 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fiddle. Help me out here...
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